EPTNydus can be very effective, its like a lot of people have said, nydus worms possibilities havent been fully explored, and there are a lot of situations where nydus is a good idea.
Nydus Worms, Use them - Page 7
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Chriamon
United States886 Posts
Nydus can be very effective, its like a lot of people have said, nydus worms possibilities havent been fully explored, and there are a lot of situations where nydus is a good idea. | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
On June 19 2010 08:38 Ryuu314 wrote: 1. Units unload pretty fast from worms; at least it's not any slower than unloading from a drop. How easily it can be sighted depends on how good you are at placing them. There are usually plenty of blind spots that you can plop nydus worms down. You don't necessarily have to place them inside someone's base every time you use it. Even if it's just outside a player's base you will still save a lot of time moving your army from place to place. 3. Not every single one will be scouted. You can increase the chance that they dont' scout them by diverting their attention. Harass an expo than nydus their main while they're busy defending/paying attention to the expo. Nydus when they move out so their army is out of position. Using them offensively can work, you just have to be smart about it. 4. Apparently you've never seen pros use nydus canals in BW to defend bases? Using them to stop vulture harass or other such types of runbys were very common in mid-late game BW as it allows Zerg to effectively defend almost all of their expos. Obviously it won't really help for early game harass since they're pretty expensive and take a while to get, but they most definitely have a strong defensive use. 5. Map control is always an issue, but the mobility of nydus worms can help give you the edge in map control. EDIT: Editted quotes to save space 1. Drops unload faster, it's a fact, don't fight it 3. Too many are scouted to be worth it, I don't see how it's possible to not have a vision of your complete expo + main base by the 8 minute mark, sorry but no, drops just have too many advantages over them offensively. 4. My point exactly. PROS use them, how often? I see them maybe 25% of the late game plays in ZvT (10% of all games?), but transport units much faster, harasses are much harder to do in SC2. Try going through SC1 foreignor videos and post them here. I want to see 2 videos of where foreignors use them efficiently. There is a reason Nydus wasn't used much in SC1, the game was figured out well enough to be used if they were useful enough, and to me it feels SC1 nydus was stronger for defence counter measures. I can go tell you for SC1 go make Dark Templars against a terran and youll win all your games if you're D-... In SC2 you can say the same if you are at that level. I still have yet to see a high level Nydus play in SC2, wouldn't it have atleast been talked about a BIT if it was powerful? | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
I mean toss a nydus at ever base its only 100/100 oh noes and you have super super mobily def. and you can hide the size and makeup of your force really easy. | ||
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nitdkim
1264 Posts
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
On June 19 2010 08:51 Skillz_Man wrote: 1. Drops unload faster, it's a fact, don't fight it 3. Too many are scouted to be worth it, I don't see how it's possible to not have a vision of your complete expo + main base by the 8 minute mark, sorry but no, drops just have too many advantages over them offensively. 4. My point exactly. PROS use them, how often? I see them maybe 25% of the late game plays in ZvT (10% of all games?), but transport units much faster, harasses are much harder to do in SC2. Try going through SC1 foreignor videos and post them here. I want to see 2 videos of where foreignors use them efficiently. There is a reason Nydus wasn't used much in SC1, the game was figured out well enough to be used if they were useful enough, and to me it feels SC1 nydus was stronger for defence counter measures. I can go tell you for SC1 go make Dark Templars against a terran and youll win all your games if you're D-... In SC2 you can say the same if you are at that level. I still have yet to see a high level Nydus play in SC2, wouldn't it have atleast been talked about a BIT if it was powerful? I'm not saying you are wrong in what you are saying, but here is one play were you could say the nydas won the day at a fairly high level.  Not a standard game though. | ||
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
On June 19 2010 09:18 xnub wrote: I really don't see nydus being used for drop like attacks don't think they are meant to be used for that for the most part. i mean 10 sec spawn time is a long time for them to get over there and kill it. I feel its more for tossing nydus worms at all your bases and useing them for def or quick flanks. Securing island easy etc. I mean toss a nydus at ever base its only 100/100 oh noes and you have super super mobily def. and you can hide the size and makeup of your force really easy. Yeah this is probably close to the truth. I went a lot for nydas worms at the end of the beta, and on a map like steps of war, it's almost impossible to get a nydas up in you opponents base. At least if he discovers the first one, then you can throw nydas from left to right and they still will be taken down. | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
On June 19 2010 09:54 nam nam wrote: I'm not saying you are wrong in what you are saying, but here is one play were you could say the nydas won the day at a fairly high level. Not a standard game though.+ Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ncb7lHNWbnU#t=6m47s Oh right, I saw that one, yeah in that situation that was without a doubt a good move but again it was against proxy facts and not really late game. Looking at that I actually do question weather a drop would have been better since the wait time for the nydus to go up but it achieved the same effect. I was thinking more along the lines of a lategame 4v3 base type thing where sneaking a few lings/baneligs would be extremely difficult. But yeah, it's an example I guess, I dislike the curcimastance of this, and this is the only situation I see where it would be useful, but whatever. | ||
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Actua
Canada101 Posts
1. Drops unload faster, it's a fact, don't fight it 3. Too many are scouted to be worth it, I don't see how it's possible to not have a vision of your complete expo + main base by the 8 minute mark, sorry but no, drops just have too many advantages over them offensively. 4. My point exactly. PROS use them, how often? I see them maybe 25% of the late game plays in ZvT (10% of all games?), but transport units much faster, harasses are much harder to do in SC2. Try going through SC1 foreignor videos and post them here. I want to see 2 videos of where foreignors use them efficiently. There is a reason Nydus wasn't used much in SC1, the game was figured out well enough to be used if they were useful enough, and to me it feels SC1 nydus was stronger for defence counter measures. I can go tell you for SC1 go make Dark Templars against a terran and youll win all your games if you're D-... In SC2 you can say the same if you are at that level. I still have yet to see a high level Nydus play in SC2, wouldn't it have atleast been talked about a BIT if it was powerful? 1.Drops dont insta warp you through the whole map in any possible location. 3. Again, stop seeing them as a mean of getting into someones base. They can do the exact same thing as in SC1, just better. Lack of use doesnt mean lack of utility. More pros used em actually when it got to hive tech ( jaedong never missed to make em). Sc1 worm was better than sc2's? You on crack? Please elaborate, cause you pulled that out out of nowhere. Dont make em if you dont want to, your just not using great tool. On big maps, being able to insta warp YOUR WHOLE ground army to any location is the best tactical advantage you can get. And stop saying someone can snipe your nydus. Its in your base, right next to your rally, and your whole army can pop out of it to deal with the threat. | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
On June 19 2010 10:28 Actua wrote: 1.Drops dont insta warp you through the whole map in any possible location. 3. Again, stop seeing them as a mean of getting into someones base. They can do the exact same thing as in SC1, just better. Lack of use doesnt mean lack of utility. More pros used em actually when it got to hive tech ( jaedong never missed to make em). Sc1 worm was better than sc2's? You on crack? Please elaborate, cause you pulled that out out of nowhere. Dont make em if you dont want to, your just not using great tool. On big maps, being able to insta warp YOUR WHOLE ground army to any location is the best tactical advantage you can get. And stop saying someone can snipe your nydus. Its in your base, right next to your rally, and your whole army can pop out of it to deal with the threat. Let's get behind the fact they will be used offensively, they are not faster than drops since you have to build them first, they are probably about same speed depending on rush distance. SC1 nydus is better for defence because they teleport your army fast, if you have 20 drones at an expo, you are going to get so many killed because they will be lined up trying to get inside. Yes JD makes them very often, he usually doesn't end up putting it to use because hes not getting harassed, it's a thing you can do to play a safe game ofcourse. And please stop being stupid, insta warp your entire army? Have you even used a Nydus yet? -.-... One Nydus will take like a minute to warp your entire army. I honestly don't think youve used them before since their use is very limited due to their speed. If they doubled the number of units that get through per second then yeah, it would be more viable, but as of now it's WAY to slow to move anything more than 5 drones from a harass. You really don't understand Nydus's do you? I wasn't talking about sniping a nydus, correct me if I'm wrong but you want it as a network to get around your bases? Pretty much the only point of a harass is to kill workers besides I guess the old 2 immortal harass. The point is, Nydus transports too slow so it has no defensive manuavers. A time I see that Nydus is viable is you know your opponent is planning to do a big push into one of your expos and hes regrouping his army at your choke, warp some units in while you have time and Flank him from behind with the rest, besides that you might see it in some unconventianal plays, but it doesn't measure up to the SC1 nydus in defensive. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On June 19 2010 11:09 Skillz_Man wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 19 2010 10:28 Actua wrote: 1.Drops dont insta warp you through the whole map in any possible location. 3. Again, stop seeing them as a mean of getting into someones base. They can do the exact same thing as in SC1, just better. Lack of use doesnt mean lack of utility. More pros used em actually when it got to hive tech ( jaedong never missed to make em). Sc1 worm was better than sc2's? You on crack? Please elaborate, cause you pulled that out out of nowhere. Dont make em if you dont want to, your just not using great tool. On big maps, being able to insta warp YOUR WHOLE ground army to any location is the best tactical advantage you can get. And stop saying someone can snipe your nydus. Its in your base, right next to your rally, and your whole army can pop out of it to deal with the threat. Let's get behind the fact they will be used offensively, they are not faster than drops since you have to build them first, they are probably about same speed depending on rush distance. SC1 nydus is better for defence because they teleport your army fast, if you have 20 drones at an expo, you are going to get so many killed because they will be lined up trying to get inside. Yes JD makes them very often, he usually doesn't end up putting it to use because hes not getting harassed, it's a thing you can do to play a safe game ofcourse. And please stop being stupid, insta warp your entire army? Have you even used a Nydus yet? -.-... One Nydus will take like a minute to warp your entire army. I honestly don't think youve used them before since their use is very limited due to their speed. If they doubled the number of units that get through per second then yeah, it would be more viable, but as of now it's WAY to slow to move anything more than 5 drones from a harass. You really don't understand Nydus's do you? I wasn't talking about sniping a nydus, correct me if I'm wrong but you want it as a network to get around your bases? Pretty much the only point of a harass is to kill workers besides I guess the old 2 immortal harass. The point is, Nydus transports too slow so it has no defensive manuavers. A time I see that Nydus is viable is you know your opponent is planning to do a big push into one of your expos and hes regrouping his army at your choke, warp some units in while you have time and Flank him from behind with the rest, besides that you might see it in some unconventianal plays, but it doesn't measure up to the SC1 nydus in defensive. I will test this when beta gets back up but I'm quite sure you are way overexaggerating the slowness of the unloading. According to liquipedia, a nydus worm unloads 1 unit per .5 seconds and loads 1 unit per .25 seconds. An overlord, on the other hand, unloads 1 unit per second, but can load as many units as it can hold simultaneously. In other words, offensively, a nydus worm is MUCH faster at unloading stuff than a regular drop; drops do NOT unload faster. Check liquipedia yourself if you don't believe me. | ||
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
On June 19 2010 12:52 Ryuu314 wrote: I will test this when beta gets back up but I'm quite sure you are way overexaggerating the slowness of the unloading. According to liquipedia, a nydus worm unloads 1 unit per .5 seconds and loads 1 unit per .25 seconds. An overlord, on the other hand, unloads 1 unit per second, but can load as many units as it can hold simultaneously. In other words, offensively, a nydus worm is MUCH faster at unloading stuff than a regular drop; drops do NOT unload faster. Check liquipedia yourself if you don't believe me. If you bring the double amount of overlords you reduce the unloading time in half. You can't really do the same with a nydas worm. Well, you could build two but that probably isn't feasible. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On June 19 2010 12:58 nihlon wrote: If you bring the double amount of overlords you reduce the unloading time in half. You can't really do the same with a nydas worm. Well, you could build two but that probably isn't feasible. That's true, but drops are a lot more vulnerable. If the overlord gets killed you not only lose the supply and the unit, but everything else within it as well. Nydus worms circumvent that issue. Additionally, both offensive drops and nydus worms rely heavily on the element of surprise. | ||
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tfmdjeff
United States170 Posts
So instead of just sending a risky worm at the heart (heartworms lolololol), let's take a totally different approach to these worms. First off, rather than sending one worm to the main like we're used to, let's 2 worms to two different expansions. He's gonna be hard pressed to find both of them, assuming you placed them in good, sneaky spots. If he didn't find either, you could unload your army from one of them and start causing trouble. He'll have to move his army all the way over, by which time you could retreat back into the worm, and come right back out the other one. You continue to do damage until he gets his army all the way back over there. You could continue always continue the harass, but even if you didn't, look how much damage you've done for 200 minerals 200 gas. If the guy found one of the worms, you just unload from the other and still do some damage. If the guy caught on to your trickery and split up his army, he just gave you half an army to kill. If he scouted both in time, as unlikely as that is, and killed them both in time, as unlikely as that is, then yeah. The nydus didn't work. No strategy always works. I'm just saying that nydus is faster and safer than overlord drops, especially if you don't get too greedy. | ||
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USn
United States376 Posts
On June 19 2010 13:53 tfmdjeff wrote: The reason people find the nydus too risky is because they get too greedy with them. They just say "I'MMA GO RIGHT FO' DA HEART, ATTACK DA MAIN", and get their nydus discovered and killed before they can do anything with it. Their next thought is going to also be in caps lock, and it is going to be "WELL GOLLY DIS WORM IS RISKY BIZNESS". So instead of just sending a risky worm at the heart (heartworms lolololol), let's take a totally different approach to these worms. First off, rather than sending one worm to the main like we're used to, let's 2 worms to two different expansions. He's gonna be hard pressed to find both of them, assuming you placed them in good, sneaky spots. If he didn't find either, you could unload your army from one of them and start causing trouble. He'll have to move his army all the way over, by which time you could retreat back into the worm, and come right back out the other one. You continue to do damage until he gets his army all the way back over there. You could continue always continue the harass, but even if you didn't, look how much damage you've done for 200 minerals 200 gas. If the guy found one of the worms, you just unload from the other and still do some damage. If the guy caught on to your trickery and split up his army, he just gave you half an army to kill. If he scouted both in time, as unlikely as that is, and killed them both in time, as unlikely as that is, then yeah. The nydus didn't work. No strategy always works. I'm just saying that nydus is faster and safer than overlord drops, especially if you don't get too greedy. Like a chess fork! One possibility that I think might be overlooked at the moment is building it at the same time as a hatch so you can use it to defend an expansion as it's going up. | ||
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P00RKID
United States424 Posts
Nydus Worms can be used: To return a forward army home to defend a counter attack. To be a reinforcement center (rally hatcheries into the nydus networks. Just add [ctrl group for Nydus worm + deploy] into your macro ) To expand at an expo that is far from your main. For instance, expoing at a cross spot on Lost Temple. The nydus can reinforce it, and forces the enemy to have more scouting knowledge as you can now come from more angles. To be able to flank, and not be contained. If a zerg is contained (tanks at the natural anyone?) A nydus worm somewhere out in the map can be used to counter, or flank and surround the contain. People assume dropping with overlords is better simple because they don't view the worms to be effective because all they use the worms for is a replacement for a full army drop on main. That isn't the best use of them, NO DOUBT. Their cost is "high" but all the player has to do is squeeze that much "use" out of them. If you can't get the bang for your buck, then don't use it! Like in the video with TLO, Nydus worms are great counters to cheese proxies. In the video, he used the Nydus to circumvent a contain. They are great to get to the other side of a force that you can't attack head on, and depending on the situation you will have to decide if a Nydus or Drops will work better. | ||
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Brokengamer
Philippines116 Posts
To those arguing which is better nydus or drops? For me I use both of them. I use drops to transport my army at the enemy base... then plop the worm behind them so that my force could easily retreat or be reinforced. Works quite well imo.. Drops are best for Attacking (unless you probably had tons of nydus), But nydus are best for securing an area you already control .. Although they are both used for mobility people should treat them different from each other. Its easy for terran/prottoss players to exaggerate the power of nydus, however it is true that nydus play has a lot of potential when the game is all figured out. They are definitly ALOT better than the SC1 nydus. | ||
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P00RKID
United States424 Posts
On June 19 2010 14:58 Brokengamer wrote: To those arguing which is better nydus or drops? For me I use both of them. I use drops to transport my army at the enemy base... then plop the worm behind them so that my force could easily retreat or be reinforced. Works quite well imo.. Most of the people understand that going for drops OR nydus is expensive and risky, and that is a big reason they opt not to do it. Getting both is like saying "too risky to buy one? buy BOTH!" and it just isn't that viable, not untill waaaay into the game. Spending money on those 2 techs too soon would be in the realm of an all in-ish timing attack that would leave you vulnerable. Too expensive to just throw out that idea (not that it would be bad in the right circumstances). The type of Nydus play I'm talking about is more of a midgame transition. Its not using Nydus as a win condition, merely a tool to make the strategy that's being employed stronger, it isn't necessarily the strategy itself. For instance, if one was to try to do the Mass queen roach strategy (zvz for instance) They could use a nydus worm to reinforce, retreat, or micro queens and roaches in and out of during a battle. Plus the queens can transfuse the Nydus worm (while its building too i think!) So plopping one down after the queen + roach moves out a ways would be very helpfull, especially if trying to do it on a large enough map where the other Z might favor Muta + ling and could possibly take out creep highways making reinforcing queen roach really hard. The Nydus would solve that, making the queen roach play still dangerous on larger maps. No need making tons of defenses, worrying about the counter attack when your queen roach has moved all the way over to the other side of the map. Use that money instead on sending your forces back to defend. | ||
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Actua
Canada101 Posts
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Actua
Canada101 Posts
On June 19 2010 11:09 Skillz_Man wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 19 2010 10:28 Actua wrote: 1.Drops dont insta warp you through the whole map in any possible location. 3. Again, stop seeing them as a mean of getting into someones base. They can do the exact same thing as in SC1, just better. Lack of use doesnt mean lack of utility. More pros used em actually when it got to hive tech ( jaedong never missed to make em). Sc1 worm was better than sc2's? You on crack? Please elaborate, cause you pulled that out out of nowhere. Dont make em if you dont want to, your just not using great tool. On big maps, being able to insta warp YOUR WHOLE ground army to any location is the best tactical advantage you can get. And stop saying someone can snipe your nydus. Its in your base, right next to your rally, and your whole army can pop out of it to deal with the threat. Let's get behind the fact they will be used offensively, they are not faster than drops since you have to build them first, they are probably about same speed depending on rush distance. SC1 nydus is better for defence because they teleport your army fast, if you have 20 drones at an expo, you are going to get so many killed because they will be lined up trying to get inside. Yes JD makes them very often, he usually doesn't end up putting it to use because hes not getting harassed, it's a thing you can do to play a safe game ofcourse. And please stop being stupid, insta warp your entire army? Have you even used a Nydus yet? -.-... One Nydus will take like a minute to warp your entire army. I honestly don't think youve used them before since their use is very limited due to their speed. If they doubled the number of units that get through per second then yeah, it would be more viable, but as of now it's WAY to slow to move anything more than 5 drones from a harass. You really don't understand Nydus's do you? I wasn't talking about sniping a nydus, correct me if I'm wrong but you want it as a network to get around your bases? Pretty much the only point of a harass is to kill workers besides I guess the old 2 immortal harass. The point is, Nydus transports too slow so it has no defensive manuavers. A time I see that Nydus is viable is you know your opponent is planning to do a big push into one of your expos and hes regrouping his army at your choke, warp some units in while you have time and Flank him from behind with the rest, besides that you might see it in some unconventianal plays, but it doesn't measure up to the SC1 nydus in defensive. First and foremost: dont call me stupid. Reading your posts, I had every reason to call you a noob who comes to forums making stupid ass claims and assumptions he aknowledges he outright failed to use, and therefore his conclusion is " well if Im a failure, its obviously the unit, not me". Have I used nydus? yes of course, and Ive raped very much with it. You say you wanna nydu's offensively. Ok, fine. Why the fuck are you trying to put em in the middle of his base? By the time you have a good nydus set up, your opponent has at least 1 expo. Theres alot of areas AROUND his base you can use for a nydus. 1 moment your attacking on one side, the other one your at his other expo, then maybe in his base, then your back defending agaisnt his push...you cant do that with overlords, they just dont fill the same role. In fact, a good nydus set up can almost give the same advantage mutas give you, but with a ground army, in terms of map control and harassing. So about the drones being killed. Yes, if he commits to come to destroy your expo and you are CAUGHT WITH YOUR PANTS DOWN. All I can say is learn to scout. If its his army, then you should be aware of it and have your army ready to take him on, warped back thanks to your nydus. If its only a few harassing units, then just pop out a few units, wich takes 3 seconds, and youre done. Really, your argument is fail, because it uses more of the fact that the player got surprised than anything else. Like someone stated, your overly exaggerating the time it takes to unload. It takes some time, but alot less than it wouldve been if you had walked all of your army there. I dont understand nydus? Yes I do want a network covering my bases. Beauty is that in SC2 is that your nydus network can cover all the freacking map. If your scouting is so deficient that you never see anything coming besides a 200/200 army on your bases, then I pity you, L2P. And yes, Nydus's are exponentially more efficient as the maps grow larger. For example, its pretty stupid to rely on anything the nydus can bring on steppes of war: youd just be better off moving your army normally, and yes, using drops instead of nydus's offensively. But on a map like DO ( in terms of size, forget the obvious natural imbalance), you can use all that place to have your army everywhere, and yes, that is incredibly strong. | ||
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Musgo
Portugal4 Posts
So... i only use the nydus when the opponent doesn't see his whole base so i allways check that out 1st so it cant counter it before unburrows so that it can be money well spent. so hide your nydus network well so that your opponent cant prepare for that surprise attack that is no longer a surprise. | ||
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