EPTNydus Worms, Use them - Page 6
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
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FTemplar
Canada70 Posts
Sure, you can pop a worm on an island to expand if you got vision, but IMO that's not as practical as using a worm on the mainland. | ||
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tfmdjeff
United States170 Posts
The thing is, people as of now tend to use them less as networks and more like dropships. They're supposed to be networks; a way to instantly get you anywhere on the map. They're easily spotted and killed, but what if there is more than one going up at a time? You don't know which one the army is going to pop out of What I've done is created a ton of worms and used them to get to all his bases before he could catch my army. Nydus an expo, wipe some stuff out. See his army coming, back into the Nydus, pop up another one at his main, do some damage, back into the Nydus, on to another expo. He couldn't attack my main because I could just get all my forces back there immediately, so I killed a ton of his stuff before I even had to engage his army. My army didn't win, but I had about 4 hatcheries and he had almost no production facilities, so i really overpowered him in the second battle. | ||
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Leeoku
1617 Posts
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SnakeChomp
Canada125 Posts
On May 20 2010 19:53 7mk wrote:getting a nydus done vs a really good player is just soo hard, if they play right you wont ever be able to get a nydus in their base. I mean as long as they spot their whole base even scvs can kill a nydus easily, cant say the same for drops. A good player knows that you can put your nydus worm anywhere; you don't have to go for an immediate win by placing it in their base. Players only lose to a nydus worm in the back of their base once. Put a worm at an expo that hasn't been taken yet so that you can A) take the expo and transfer drones without them being spotted and B) flank from that position immediately giving you a mobility advantage. | ||
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Ouga
Finland645 Posts
I'd see nydus working decently if you wanted to do it really fast and catch opponent offguard when he only has some towers and only started massing raxes and such. Other option to work is if opponent lets you make nydus to their main, and close to their exp or 3rd. With some nydus back'n'forth balling you're destined to get all but 1 of his bases down eventually  But really I don't see how often terran could allow this. Nyduses just don't seem as good against T, but they have decent potential vP/Z. | ||
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Looky
United States1608 Posts
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Ouga
Finland645 Posts
Put a worm at an expo that hasn't been taken yet so that you can A) take the expo and transfer drones without them being spotted and B) flank from that position immediately giving you a mobility advantage. Moving your drones/flanking army in position doesn't have the huge *SWOOOOOOOOOOSH* sound attached If I hear nydus sound and don't get attacked within 10sec, it's pretty much guaranteed opponent has taken island with it. I can just take it out with air units/drop without scouting, since there really is no other sensible option - zerg can have decent enough map control to move armies relatively unnoticed for flanking positions without nyduses. | ||
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SnakeChomp
Canada125 Posts
On June 19 2010 05:52 Ouga wrote: Moving your drones/flanking army in position doesn't have the huge *SWOOOOOOOOOOSH* sound attached If I hear nydus sound and don't get attacked within 10sec, it's pretty much guaranteed opponent has taken island with it. I can just take it out with air units/drop without scouting, since there really is no other sensible option - zerg can have decent enough map control to move armies relatively unnoticed for flanking positions without nyduses.You forget that nydus worm flanks and drone transfers cannot be spotted by zel'naga watch towers. If you hear a nydus worm and aren't attacked within 10 seconds, you have absolutely no clue where the nydus worm is. For all you know I am simply connecting my expos together. Not many maps have islands and only a foolish zerg would try to take an Island if they didn't have an air force of their own to support their investment. No, you cannot make any generalizations with where nydus worms will be placed especially at this stage where people have not explored all the possibilities of the nydus worm. | ||
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Galleon.frigate
Canada721 Posts
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gREIFOCs
Argentina208 Posts
On May 20 2010 19:31 Yeld wrote: Using a Nydus is not any more gimmicky than dropping with overlords or positioning your army correctly. I might read you wrong here, but I get the impression that you see the NW as a cheap way to achieve victory. As I see it, it is another tool in your arsenal, and if you refrain from using it because you think its cheap, then that doesn't help in making you a better player whatsoever. So true. Often we see in this forums new SC players that want to win "without doing X". What's up with that? If you can win with X it's not smart to restrain from it. Theorycrafting alternatives on how to deal with something is one thing, but loosing 5 games in a row to a two gate because you just don't want to throw down a couple of spines. It's OK to try to be a smartass and lowbudget things, but players tend to suffer from this. The goal is to win. If two spines, a drop or a nydus is the way to get the advantage that you need (by attacking or refusing an attack) that is what you need to do. | ||
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OverSight
United States104 Posts
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
On June 18 2010 20:17 clickrush wrote: Nydus Network has five advatages over drops: 1. Its faster and more flexible in most cases. 2. Units in the NN do not get killed if the Worm gets killed. 3. If scouted and repelled, then you only lose 1 Worm (100/100), while a repelled Drop can be desastrous. 4. In long macro games it can be used defensively to connect hatcheries. 5. with nicely spread tumors you have sight over a huge area on the map and can possibly use the Network very tactically. Whether something depends on micro to work or not doesnt a lot of influence on the viability of a tactic/strategy as you might learn from the BW history. Many tactics and strategies that are common in BW need a shitload of micromanagement. I think if you want to use the network offensively then you can achieve that not only by hoping that your opponent doesnt see it... I would appreciate if you named 3 builds that are micro heavy besides the ones that you are forced to micro to survive, example is templar PvZ at lower than B level. Pretty much all builds are very straight up, you don't see people going reavers late game PvP even though they make your army stronger people don't use them because there is that extra multitasking step and the fear of your drop getting killed. The reknown build Sair/Reaver that everyone calls the highest requiring APM build is not just because it's multitasking heavy but it's risky, your corsairs are off position, your shuttle gets sniped, GG... Only pros attempt those builds because they are risky. Nydus networks are exactly that, they are risky and they don't have a fixed profit, maybe you make a nydus network for drone defence but he is doing a timing push instead of harassment, I don't see it becoming a standard part of a play, it's like why isn't a DA used in BW, it looks good on paper. And regarding your points: 1. It's faster? Do you know how slow units unload? And how easily it can be sighted. 2. Units do not get killed, hmm that true. 3. Pretty much every single one will be scouted, don't use them offensively. 4. Again this looks good on paper but it's not, 4 hellions get in your base and your drones will die before you can even see that they are getting attacked half the time, and don't even try to use it to defend a timing push. 5. This tactical advantage can be easily killed because if your opponent has map control he can nicely take them out and creep is fast enough as it is, therefore the only real purpose of this idea would be a flank or run units into the base. Now to make a network like you speak of youd need what, 1000/1000, or more? Will you do enough damage with this tactical advantage every game? I doubt it, you can use overlords to almost the same extent for strategic play but at a much cheaper cost, risking that much resources in hoping to do a flank could be some pimpest play type thing but it wont happen often since getting behind a terran army on creep isn't super difficult. The speed of NW and how slow they spew out units is just ridicolous, if they want to see an actual use, atleast make it twice as fast. Doing a strategic play yet it takes 30 seconds to move 30 lings, 10 hydra, 20 roach.... I don't think so. | ||
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Bob300
United States505 Posts
Edit: If hellions get to your base you can hide them in your nydus, no joke, the hellions cant kill a nydus.... The units in his base will do more damage than 4 hellions attacking buildings. | ||
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FC.Strike
United States621 Posts
But obviously to invest in something just for the possibility of using it in the future in some narrow case is silly. Really the question is: Do Nydus Worms confer any benefit even if we're never presented with the opportunity to worm the opponent's throat? And that answer is well, sometimes. Watching Artosis' stream, I've seen him nydus to island expansions. This has the obvious benefit of being able to transfer lots of drones at once to and from the base without having to move your overlord fleet there to do it. In that way, you can use the worm opportunistically (if you see an opening) but there's still a use for it if you don't find that opening. If you want to incorporate Nydus play into your games, you need to find some use for them which will validate their existence every time. Whether or not you can find that use is up to you. | ||
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Ouga
Finland645 Posts
On June 19 2010 06:04 SnakeChomp wrote: You forget that nydus worm flanks and drone transfers cannot be spotted by zel'naga watch towers. If you hear a nydus worm and aren't attacked within 10 seconds, you have absolutely no clue where the nydus worm is. For all you know I am simply connecting my expos together. Not many maps have islands and only a foolish zerg would try to take an Island if they didn't have an air force of their own to support their investment. No, you cannot make any generalizations with where nydus worms will be placed especially at this stage where people have not explored all the possibilities of the nydus worm. 150/200 and 100/100 for all extras is too expensive to do for just "connecting", it has to cause tons of real dmg to become worth it. If you seriously claim the first SWOOSH can tell about something else than offensive use, that working at top level is fairytales. If it wasn't offensive, it was 250/300 down the drain, completely revealing your hand and letting opponent know to build something to get vision for whole of his territory. Zerg can't waste gas for something that can't work as important offense at some point, and nydus' effect is so easily countered once its use is known by opponent. I really can't think of situation where nyduses were really needed for defense either, since armies move so fast from side to side if there's creep between. Most lategame drop harrasses can be dealt with lings, and I'm confident I'd get lings to place faster withOUT nyduses. And really, isn't keeping nagatowers as zerg pretty standard? If I'm not able to keep them (when there's max 2 in map), I'm usually at backfoot to begin with. | ||
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jaybrundage
United States3921 Posts
On June 19 2010 06:31 Galleon.frigate wrote: I'd love to see replys of using the worm effectivly, because I don't seem to have the imagination to make them worth the investment. I agree that as a network that have serious potental. This is an awesome video that showcases how good a nydus network can be | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
2 Nydus Worms: Oh Jesus God 3 Nydus Worms: FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU | ||
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FC.Strike
United States621 Posts
On June 19 2010 07:44 jaybrundage wrote: This is an awesome video that showcases how good a nydus network can be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LvHjCRKIOo&feature=PlayList&p=D3898F32EF0F97BF&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=48 We have to be careful when approaching such videos. Much of the success of that play was not due to the brilliance of Zerg, rather it was due to the inability of Protoss to manage two armies at once. Although I do commend that Zerg player for trying to think out of the box and come up with new ways to use Nydus Networks - this kind of thinking is what pushes the strategic envelope. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On June 19 2010 06:58 Skillz_Man wrote: On June 18 2010 16:58 Skillz_Man wrote: 1. It's faster? Do you know how slow units unload? And how easily it can be sighted. 2. Units do not get killed, hmm that true. 3. Pretty much every single one will be scouted, don't use them offensively. 4. Again this looks good on paper but it's not, 4 hellions get in your base and your drones will die before you can even see that they are getting attacked half the time, and don't even try to use it to defend a timing push. 5. This tactical advantage can be easily killed because if your opponent has map control he can... 1. Units unload pretty fast from worms; at least it's not any slower than unloading from a drop. How easily it can be sighted depends on how good you are at placing them. There are usually plenty of blind spots that you can plop nydus worms down. You don't necessarily have to place them inside someone's base every time you use it. Even if it's just outside a player's base you will still save a lot of time moving your army from place to place. 3. Not every single one will be scouted. You can increase the chance that they dont' scout them by diverting their attention. Harass an expo than nydus their main while they're busy defending/paying attention to the expo. Nydus when they move out so their army is out of position. Using them offensively can work, you just have to be smart about it. 4. Apparently you've never seen pros use nydus canals in BW to defend bases? Using them to stop vulture harass or other such types of runbys were very common in mid-late game BW as it allows Zerg to effectively defend almost all of their expos. Obviously it won't really help for early game harass since they're pretty expensive and take a while to get, but they most definitely have a strong defensive use. 5. Map control is always an issue, but the mobility of nydus worms can help give you the edge in map control. EDIT: Editted quotes to save space | ||
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