I have been slowly but surely navigating towards a more and more macro style of gameplay as zerg. Mostly because I have to respond to better and better players, who can hold off lots of the zerg early game attacks. I have been cornered into a pretty standard build, but it just loses to most T or P after they have an expo or maybe 2 expo.
So after watching Day[9] and the like, I decided to explore other options, and I decided to switch back to Nydus play. What a good choice, I must say. They were overused and abused back in the earlier beta patches, but now they are overlooked and rarely seen (from a Z standpoint). They are THE mobility threat the zerg has, and if you can make use of them, you can keep the enemy constantly on the lookout. And even better, they don't notice and you deal some major damage. They are like the cliff jumpers the zerg wish they had.
I am 1300 - 1400 plat so this isn't a top tier sort of strategy. But at my ranking range, zergs should throw in more nydus play, if they are having trouble with a larger econ game.
That being said, I'd like to know what other people think about the current usage of the Nydus Worm.
I'm in gold and I almost never see nydus worms used against me (I am T) to the point where if a zerg snuck one in my base late game, it would probably win the game for him as I would not be prepared at all.
The worm is also good for microing units near it. If your getting attacked, you can micro your queen, or hydra / roaches, or workers into the worm if they are getting focus fired, and pop them back out to attack.
And its vs a meching terran none the less. I HATE mech terran as zerg. Let them get too many upgrades and tanks and it just snowballs to the point where Z has no chance.
Ugh please don't encourage people to use nydus. I have lost a few games because I don't quite have vision over my whole main (Lost temple is the main offender here) and they put a nydus in the back and roll my base with hydras.
And by that, of course I mean they are hella good and Z should keep an eye out for opportunities to ruin the other player's day with them.
I hadn't seen a worm in weeks until today. I got lucky and scanned his expo/army and there was the entrance so I was on the lookout.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the worm supposed to make a sound when it's created? I only hear a roar when it's done building (which is too late...)
The best way i've come to use the nydus is almost counter-intuitive. Instead of using them like the old nydus, I'll use them in more of a war3, town portal sort of way. First off I'll make the building somewhere in the core of my base defended, because If you lose that you can't make more exits, but you can make as many exits as you want (just not at the same time). so often times what i'll do is just send my army (especially when its hydra heavy, since they're so slow) and right before i get into the engagement, i'll slap a nydus exit behind my army, then engage. or not engage, point is i can retreat (if its from me losing the engagement, needing to go back to my base to defend harass, or any other reason) instantly, and can also re-enforce it a lot faster, instead of having units queued to run all the way across the map, they can just nydus it. rallys work wonders.
all-in-all im really surprised not to see more play like this. I understand drops are still drops, and the nydus shouldn't be used soley as a backdoor surprise attack purpose, but overall just surprised at the lack of these at any level of play.
the o/lord drops are pretty good too, i notice artosis using it a lot on his videos, and it's a good tactic to use when you want to have main force attacking while having a specops of zergling hydra drop on his main.
Problem i have with nydus is that it costs gas and minerals and it might die so ive considered it a gimmic move that you use if you are faar behind and cant engage his army. :`/
Im not really at the skill level where i would want to use gimmic moves, as there are tons of other things i can improve upon my gameplay without resorting to backstabbing my opponents base.
Nydus worm only makes noise upon completion I believe. However it has a building size on the minimap, so you can notice it that way while it's building.
Im not really at the skill level where i would want to use gimmic moves, as there are tons of other things i can improve upon my gameplay without resorting to backstabbing my opponents base.
Using a Nydus is not any more gimmicky than dropping with overlords or positioning your army correctly. I might read you wrong here, but I get the impression that you see the NW as a cheap way to achieve victory. As I see it, it is another tool in your arsenal, and if you refrain from using it because you think its cheap, then that doesn't help in making you a better player whatsoever.
1 nydus attempt = 300 gas. + units come out of nydus 1 at a time. You don't even need to stop the building, just position your army to be ready on the receiving end and lol.
Well, the good thing about the nydus is that you can hit and run - alot of times, if you can get a good nydus off, you can kill off important buildings (tech buildings / nexus) and then send all of your unitsback in the nydus and poop em back out unharmed.
Im not really at the skill level where i would want to use gimmic moves, as there are tons of other things i can improve upon my gameplay without resorting to backstabbing my opponents base.
Using a Nydus is not any more gimmicky than dropping with overlords or positioning your army correctly. I might read you wrong here, but I get the impression that you see the NW as a cheap way to achieve victory. As I see it, it is another tool in your arsenal, and if you refrain from using it because you think its cheap, then that doesn't help in making you a better player whatsoever.
Just like rushing voidrays is another tool in protoss arsenal ;?
I agree with the fact that there is a fine line between utterly cheap and simply being more mobile, however rather than paying 300 gas for two nydus worms i would invest in either spire or hydra den and perhaps even get a few upgrades for the same price as two - three worms.
As day9 says. It is important to have the basics down and to understand all 3 matchups before you begin experimenting with terrain advantage, overlord drops and nydus worms.
Because if you can win without these cute things then when you finally start experimenting with them these cute things will become that much more deadly.
I agree that it is great and it can win you games but even in lower platinum, I just think that there are other ways to improve rather than corporate nydus worm and doom drops into your overall strategy.
I dont know man, seems to me like the top asian Z players use overlord drop to much greater effect and I'm sure that getting a nydus done vs a really good player is just soo hard, if they play right you wont ever be able to get a nydus in their base. I mean as long as they spot their whole base even scvs can kill a nydus easily, cant say the same for drops.
It's hard to place a Nydus, usually because it's normal for a Protoss or Terran to put supply/plyons all over the base for a full view. I've played a couple hundred games and only had 1 Nydus go off on me where I was harassed on multiple expos, which of course worked very well for the Zerg.
i never thought of this but. you could send queen through first to transfusion the worm if its a dire situation. building a fucking worm is great dudes so many options.... its basically the same as a pylon for your warp hatches with recall ability bitches!. heres some cool less obvious things ive done with Nydus Worm:
1. pop one up when one of your far off expansions is getting raped. save your drones.. pop it up a new expansion and saturate that one instead... now im just getting this idea, but you could make hatcheries at every expansion and only saturate one and use this strat if needed while slowly saturating the rest.
2. i guess this is obvious.. but baneling eco rape! rape workers for a good price always worth it. Im not sure how many blings it takes,,, but when you see a CC and all its workers go down to pure blings you will be veery happy.
3. base- trading. You got the obvious speed advantage here. Make that slow thor push pay as soon as they start moving snipe a CC.
4. Flanks. setting one up at a random spot on the map will give you an ez way to set up flanks. and also your oppenent will go "wtf heard a worm and checked my base but nothing!?"
5. worms do make creeep so you can set up a permanent reinforcement position and add crawlers... too bad crawlers suck and trying to crawler push with 12 seconds root time will fail you. the only great thing about crawlers is they dont cost food thank god. you can spam them when youre maxed at 14 minutes and have too much money
On May 20 2010 18:39 Vexx wrote: ... Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the worm supposed to make a sound when it's created? I only hear a roar when it's done building (which is too late...)
No, the worm has always made a sound once it gets out of the ground, if it made a sound as soon as it started building, then I'm quite sure the Nydus would be completely useless...
If you could see a drop coming on the minimap, then it's most likely not going to be as effective
Nydus seems underused these days, but is quite costly to get them up and running that it seems unnecessary. Maybe in the future we will see more of it from zergs in late game play.
Nydus most powerfull new thing for zerg with queen in SC2 seriously they are totaly awesome u can be anywhere on the map, I use them in almost all my game ( 1600 plat )
here's some replays with offensive and defensive nydus abuse (some's are just lame, but most major help to win the game)
Effect nydus use pretty much relies on your opponent making mistakes, and can't really be relied on for any kind of offensive threat except in very specific situations. It's just not that good.
How about using it to split your opponents army when attacking? Pop ~15 speedlings out of the nydus to wreak havoc in his main while pressuring the front door?
Nydus worms are awsome to flank your opponent. In higher plat I often run into players who nydus on the other side of the map than the conflict is going, send half their army and flank me while there werent any units there when I scouted. It can be a huge pain cause in 30 seconds he can flank you with any amount of units he so chooses to do with or when you slow push someone as T, they just pop their army between your army and your base/expand.
The best strongpoints of nydus worms are an increase in mobility for zerg, defensively and to outmaneuver an opponents army, especially on maps with a tight center space such as kulas. I don't get why people are all they are not super anymore to pop in an opponents base to win immediately, when they bring soooo many great options to a zergs tactical play.
What I'd love to see is a zerg throwing out some early nydus worms defensively to set up their base and freak the opposing player out. 2 nydus worms with no bust in the back and they may just think the third is just another one around the map. LITTLE DO THEY KNOW!
etc.
I love the map wide exit scream, such an amazing psychological weapon. Throw a nydus worm in the back of his base, then charge the front while tanks unsiege and collossus lag in the back. Buckets of fun for the whole family.
I saw a zerg vs terran game it was asian reply on scrap station. The zerg tried to nydus him terrans army was out his base close to the xel'naga watch tower he just set his scvs to attack it and the scvs took it out b4 it was able to pop up. It was in a corner also so the scvs didn't even have a surround
For high level platinum players, nydus worm is harder to work. (it rarely worked against me anyway) Instead, clever Zerg uses Overlord drops. =) I'd say use Overlord drops more often!
Nydus just takes too long to unload your units. You have to wait the time to build it, you'll hear the roar, probably know where it's at and just pick off my units because after 30 seconds only half of them were spewed out.
I mean, it can work decently. It's just for the investment I'd need to do significant damage or I just threw away alot of cash.
Using nydus as a quick way to travel across the map is an extremely good thing, giving you far better mobility than your opponent.
But using nydus as a way to 'drop' units into an enemy base doesn't work against good players.
I think nydus is more effective late-game, when both players have 3+ bases. Then you can easily hop from one base to another killing enemy workers/expansions.
However, good nydus use is extremely gas-expensive. If you don't do any damage with your nydus worms you will be behind in economy for sure.
On May 20 2010 22:11 monkh wrote: I saw a zerg vs terran game it was asian reply on scrap station. The zerg tried to nydus him terrans army was out his base close to the xel'naga watch tower he just set his scvs to attack it and the scvs took it out b4 it was able to pop up. It was in a corner also so the scvs didn't even have a surround
Pros It gives overlords an additional tool Move valuable upgrade @ 200/200 instead of 100/200 + 100/100 per worm Units come out at a rate equal to the # of overlords used instead of 1 at a time Can reposition drop location at last second. Worm cannot be canceled Can target multiple locations at once by splitting lords Great way to take island expansions or expas behind rocks Can drop on top of some units (like siege tanks)
Cons Distance is irrelevant for worm, lords have travel time Lords can be sniped en route, very costly
Imo you could compare nydus with ghost academy. The special ability both cost 100/100, takes some time for effect, opponents are warned. The difference is that you could place the nydus anywhere, and takes longer time and can be prevented once the mins&gas are invested (i.e. nydus has popped). That said, I think that the 20 secs time window is a bit too long as you could basically travel from one side to another side in 20 secs in most maps.. the 10 secs was maybe a bit too fast, but 20 is just a tad too long.
That said, I wish a new unit would come available if you created the nydus building as it costs 200/200 (incl drone) and for every other entrance/exit 100/100.
On May 21 2010 00:12 Koffiegast wrote: Imo you could compare nydus with ghost academy. The special ability both cost 100/100, takes some time for effect, opponents are warned. The difference is that you could place the nydus anywhere, and takes longer time and can be prevented once the mins&gas are invested (i.e. nydus has popped). That said, I think that the 20 secs time window is a bit too long as you could basically travel from one side to another side in 20 secs in most maps.. the 10 secs was maybe a bit too fast, but 20 is just a tad too long.
That said, I wish a new unit would come available if you created the nydus building as it costs 200/200 (incl drone) and for every other entrance/exit 100/100.
interresting point of view but notice that once u made the nydus u can use it at anytime instead of the ghost academy who need nuke preparation.
I don't know why Zergs don't use Nydus Worms similarly to the way Nydus Canals worked in SC1 - as a way to defend their new expansions. I guess it has to do with the fact that the army is so mobile on creep now that you wouldn't really need it, and the maps are small enough for the Zerg army to move around from base to base very quickly. I hope larger maps come out that reward more SC1-style Zerg play.
On May 21 2010 00:38 scintilliaSD wrote: I don't know why Zergs don't use Nydus Worms similarly to the way Nydus Canals worked in SC1 - as a way to defend their new expansions. I guess it has to do with the fact that the army is so mobile on creep now that you wouldn't really need it, and the maps are small enough for the Zerg army to move around from base to base very quickly. I hope larger maps come out that reward more SC1-style Zerg play.
Exactly. That's my main use for the nydus worms. Mobility between bases for defensive purposes.
Im not really at the skill level where i would want to use gimmic moves, as there are tons of other things i can improve upon my gameplay without resorting to backstabbing my opponents base.
Using a Nydus is not any more gimmicky than dropping with overlords or positioning your army correctly. I might read you wrong here, but I get the impression that you see the NW as a cheap way to achieve victory. As I see it, it is another tool in your arsenal, and if you refrain from using it because you think its cheap, then that doesn't help in making you a better player whatsoever.
Just like rushing voidrays is another tool in protoss arsenal ;?
I agree with the fact that there is a fine line between utterly cheap and simply being more mobile, however rather than paying 300 gas for two nydus worms i would invest in either spire or hydra den and perhaps even get a few upgrades for the same price as two - three worms.
As day9 says. It is important to have the basics down and to understand all 3 matchups before you begin experimenting with terrain advantage, overlord drops and nydus worms.
Because if you can win without these cute things then when you finally start experimenting with them these cute things will become that much more deadly.
I agree that it is great and it can win you games but even in lower platinum, I just think that there are other ways to improve rather than corporate nydus worm and doom drops into your overall strategy.
Positioning and terrain advantage is "basics". If you have the best mechanics in the world, if you attack cliffs without air you will still lose. Having nydus worm gives someone mobility. The core of a zerg ground army (roach/hydra) are some of the most immobile units in the game off creep. So you only have a few choices as zerg: 1. Creep highways 2. Overlord speed and drop. 3. nydus worm 4. All of the above.
Having mobility isnt a "cute" thing. Its crucial for zerg play anything passed one expansion. Of course there are other ways to improve your play, but the point is, nydus worms don't require you to improve your play. They require a clever mind while being able to keep up APM.
On May 21 2010 00:38 scintilliaSD wrote: I don't know why Zergs don't use Nydus Worms similarly to the way Nydus Canals worked in SC1 - as a way to defend their new expansions. I guess it has to do with the fact that the army is so mobile on creep now that you wouldn't really need it, and the maps are small enough for the Zerg army to move around from base to base very quickly. I hope larger maps come out that reward more SC1-style Zerg play.
yeah that's not as necessary now that you have creep that gives 30% speed bonus.
i think it's better to be used to attack multiple bases at once.
Nydus Worms are amazing, and if I could just figure out a way to queue drones to automatically mine through the network, it would open up insane potential for safe 1-base Zerg play, which is currently not viable except for early game rushes. They could mine the entire map from 1 base theoretically. If you wanted to be cute, you could even mine the opponent's base when he's low on minerals to starve him out (super risky though, just a thought). It's funny because I was trying it yesterday but I couldn't figure out how to queue them to go in the network, come out, grab the minerals, come back, unload. Nydus Worm, maybe a few Spine/Spore Crawlers and you've basically expanded except if they attack your expo, you can evacuate (can you move the crawlers through the network?), you don't lose much, and chances are you've got networks elsewhere/can easily make one and keep going as if you never lost a base and you won't suffer the huge drop in drone count/mineral loss in multi-base play.
Also, Nydus Worms + Overlord drops have really good synergy. I was watching Artosis play Zerg yesterday. He put a Nydus Worm near the opponent's base and built Spine Crawlers - not IN it but next to it on high ground, I forget the map because I only just started playing SC2. If he had Overlord drop tech he could just rally his units into the network, lift his units over and drop them. Much faster and safer for your Overlord and your units because the time in which you have to actually lift and drop your units with the Overlord is a few seconds, you spend no time flying over potential enemies who can snipe you, you don't have to use like 5 overlords to transport 20 units and generally Nydus Worms require an Overlord scouting anyway. It's also much easier to defend simply by putting Spore Crawlers to defend against drops - the units in the network will defend on the ground on their own, especially since you usually network Hydras. However, I would say Overlord drops are more cost-effective and faster to incorporate just because all you buy is 1 tech.
The main negative to Nydus Networks are that they cost a LOT to start up, if you make a network before you build an army, a timing push will crush you.
On May 21 2010 00:38 scintilliaSD wrote: I don't know why Zergs don't use Nydus Worms similarly to the way Nydus Canals worked in SC1 - as a way to defend their new expansions. I guess it has to do with the fact that the army is so mobile on creep now that you wouldn't really need it, and the maps are small enough for the Zerg army to move around from base to base very quickly. I hope larger maps come out that reward more SC1-style Zerg play.
yeah that's not as necessary now that you have creep that gives 30% speed bonus.
i think it's better to be used to attack multiple bases at once.
+ the maps are so small atm that its basically faster to run to a place
One funny use is to place the nydus inside the enemy base, but not have any units inside it. Usually he'll send all his units to the nydus, then i just attacked the front, sniped his expo and retreated :D
I have used NW to mediocur effect in the past, but their gas cost is far too high to be used as a standard strat, they need to reduce the cost of each worm to not include gas, and then we'll see them actually used all over the place...
On May 20 2010 17:41 frogmelter wrote: Another thing that I don't see zergs do is after you summon the worm and do some damage, you can retreat all your forces back in the worm
That way, you can avoid losing most of your troops while doing damage
something I haven't seen enough people do (makes more sense since they nerfed it, but still a viable strategy) is move spine crawlers through the nydus worm and plant them outside of it. you can keep a cemented back door to his base with base defenses that has more potential than a toss proxy outpost.
On May 21 2010 00:38 scintilliaSD wrote: I don't know why Zergs don't use Nydus Worms similarly to the way Nydus Canals worked in SC1 - as a way to defend their new expansions. I guess it has to do with the fact that the army is so mobile on creep now that you wouldn't really need it, and the maps are small enough for the Zerg army to move around from base to base very quickly. I hope larger maps come out that reward more SC1-style Zerg play.
I actually do do this... It works well, it surprises me that other people don't, as in seeing you don't have to sacrifice drones to do it anymore.
I'm not even close to good (~17 gold division), but I have been able to use Nydus successfully in later game situations as a defensive strategy as I take over the map. Before a new hatch pops, I place a nydus worm right next to it and place a large portion of my army inside the network. I also load a few drones if I am smart enough to think that far ahead. In doing so, I can saturate a distant mineral field as soon as the hatch pops, as well as defend any of my bases as long as I see the opposition coming. IMO nydus worms are less valuable offensively because better players always seem to figure it out on time.
Nydus only really becomes interesting in late game to abuse the spread of your opponent's bases and to help cover your spread out bases. It is not useful for direct attacks, drops are MUCH better for that.
To everyone wondering if the nydus makes noise the worm while building doesn't but when the overlord starts dropping creep it makes some noise. I lost a worm because the guy heard the OL drop creep. I think it's worth it to load some hydras and drop them to guard the worm because if they see it they can destroy the worm really quick.
On May 21 2010 03:23 Prdors wrote: To everyone wondering if the nydus makes noise the worm while building doesn't but when the overlord starts dropping creep it makes some noise. I lost a worm because the guy heard the OL drop creep. I think it's worth it to load some hydras and drop them to guard the worm because if they see it they can destroy the worm really quick.
On May 21 2010 01:16 slowmanrunning wrote: something I haven't seen enough people do (makes more sense since they nerfed it, but still a viable strategy) is move spine crawlers through the nydus worm and plant them outside of it. you can keep a cemented back door to his base with base defenses that has more potential than a toss proxy outpost.
I don't think you can do that. You could move drones through, then build the spine crawlers though.
On May 20 2010 19:50 Madkipz wrote: Just like rushing voidrays is another tool in protoss arsenal ;?
I agree with the fact that there is a fine line between utterly cheap and simply being more mobile, however rather than paying 300 gas for two nydus worms i would invest in either spire or hydra den and perhaps even get a few upgrades for the same price as two - three worms.
As day9 says. It is important to have the basics down and to understand all 3 matchups before you begin experimenting with terrain advantage, overlord drops and nydus worms.
Because if you can win without these cute things then when you finally start experimenting with them these cute things will become that much more deadly.
I agree that it is great and it can win you games but even in lower platinum, I just think that there are other ways to improve rather than corporate nydus worm and doom drops into your overall strategy.
The NW won't be worth the gas in a fairly normal close game that is low econ and high aggression. But if the opponent is deciding to tech and / or expo to drive the game into a longer game, there are good timing windows to punish them with the NW.
I understand the match-ups (as Z vs X) pretty well, so Its not like I just found the NW, clicked it, won a game, and decided they were good. I'm using them in response to the newer strategies than when it was used before. For instance vs the new style of Meching terran, or Stargates + warprays for P. I like to experiment with different play when there are new styles of play from other races, to see what they are weak against.
Honestly what drove me to experiment with them was the Meching Terran. Against terran its a good idea to put your nydus on a nearby Overlord's creepdrop so terran might miss with his scan.
i like nydus'ing the enemy's LT cliff : the nydus "head" spawns creep so spines can be built immediately. works even better if you let the overlord (that gave you vision up there) dump creep as well.
the best part ofc is the ability to go back and forth. indeed, the "1 unit per .5 seconds" is not suitable for large armies, but a handful of banelings can be quite effective for any expo
lol I made a thread about this and zergs overreacting to roach nerf but it was closed due to being blasphemous or something against what other "top players" are saying. /facepalms
but yes, nydus worms are very, very good, and zergs refuse to use them STILL. You can build many of them and spawn worms simultaneously. It is sick.
Once, playing a 2v2 as zerg, I pumped drones only and built a big spine crawler wall early, enemies were rallying near my choke to attack, I built a nydus in one enemy's base, transfered my queen and a dozen drones, dropped creep tumors,built spine crawlers, destroyed the base.
As zerg I always use Nydus network, I build it sticked to main hatchery then exits sticked to others hatcheries and strategic locations, in a mineral line, the creep prevent enemy to expand and I can flank him, a nydus cost nearly as much as 2 hydras but gives an huge advantage, I may be low on pop but my army is everywhere I built a nydus, I rally all hatcheries to the Nydus network, I always have units ready to pop out from a nydus.
It just seems so cheesy and it's something that won't fool a good player more than once. I could see it working on ladder right now but if everyone starts doing it people will be more proactive about spreading depots / pylons and spotting for worms.
i read most of the posts, and didnt see anyone mention ultralisk use in a nydus. ultralisks COMPLETELY WRECK BUILDINGS, so the whole 1 at a time wouldnt matter so much, sicne you only need like 5 to own the crap out of some buildings.
idk though, i play T and always crap sensor tower mid game
On May 21 2010 05:58 avilo wrote: lol I made a thread about this and zergs overreacting to roach nerf but it was closed due to being blasphemous or something against what other "top players" are saying. /facepalms
but yes, nydus worms are very, very good, and zergs refuse to use them STILL. You can build many of them and spawn worms simultaneously. It is sick.
Eh they cost a good chunk of gas and are only really good when the other player isn't...
I have found much better luck with overlord drops.
On May 20 2010 19:53 7mk wrote: I dont know man, seems to me like the top asian Z players use overlord drop to much greater effect and I'm sure that getting a nydus done vs a really good player is just soo hard, if they play right you wont ever be able to get a nydus in their base. I mean as long as they spot their whole base even scvs can kill a nydus easily, cant say the same for drops.
Agreed. I find drops much more effective as well. Drop tech is cheaper, too, and by the time it's finished you usually have a bunch of overlords to use straight away.
Additionally, against better players who have good building spread and minimap sense Nydus gets shut down extremely quickly. Even if a drop gets spotted, it can unleash a significant amount of units faster than a Nydus worm can, dealing damage more quickly. Additionally, one can retreat with overlords and save them for later use, whereas once the worm dies you've lost 100/100.
you guys are doing it wrong. you dont just make A nydus worm. its a nydus NETWORK. you should have them everywhere so their army can't possibly stop you from making new ones. you can harass their base, their expansions, and defend your base at the same time!
Someone show me a game where you can get enough gas to nydus network with ultras or even just straight nydus network. I don't have enough gas to make roaches to die to tanks to stall their push when they're heading for my main let alone throwing nydus garbage all over the map.
I thought it was great, and shows there are 2 things that are in favor of nydus: 1. you can teleport / e.g. no overlords required to fly over defense lines, 2. you can do this all instantly.
As a zerg player primarily, I find nydus worms to be extremely efficient as noted in many of the previous posts. Towards the beginning of the SC2 beta I was winning every 1v1 game with nydus worms against Terran/Protoss. It's still easy to pull off if you can pull off some distraction tactics for their main army.
On May 20 2010 17:44 Xinliben wrote: I'm in gold and I almost never see nydus worms used against me (I am T) to the point where if a zerg snuck one in my base late game, it would probably win the game for him as I would not be prepared at all.
You know, thinking about it...I'm the exact same way.
I'm gonna be all paranoid now watching for Nydus worms.
I thought it was great, and shows there are 2 things that are in favor of nydus: 1. you can teleport / e.g. no overlords required to fly over defense lines, 2. you can do this all instantly.
Wow! Great, great use of the Nydus NETWORK! Will definitely have to try that even though I guess I suck too much to multitask it properly That number of Nydus Worms costs a lot but they also took out the Protoss so really think Zergs so at least try to do something similar more often
The video shows what happens when your opponent has 1 control group syndrome. If toss had left enough stalkers in his main to stop the respawning nydus worms he could easily have defended his natural with his main army.
On May 20 2010 18:12 BlackHat wrote: Ugh please don't encourage people to use nydus. I have lost a few games because I don't quite have vision over my whole main (Lost temple is the main offender here) and they put a nydus in the back and roll my base with hydras.
And by that, of course I mean they are hella good and Z should keep an eye out for opportunities to ruin the other player's day with them.
man, you SHOULD have vision over your whole main ........ if you lost to nydus worm it's your fault .......... this is just like protoss makes a pylon in your base and warps in alot of zealots, stalkers, templars and you don't see this and lose.
Or terran establishing a tank/bunker/turret position in your main without you noticing
BTW, when you hear the worm screaming, you must check for the nydus worm. And start looking for it in your main ...... it's the 1st place you want to be sure of
I think that if you want to use it offensively, Overlord drops are just much better. You can drop on different places at the same time and it's faster than the nydus. also, the surprise effect often is bigger.
Nevertheless, nydus worms aren't useless, but it should be more used like the nydus from BW. use it in long macro games to link your bases together or to get reinforcements into the battle more quickly. You can secure an island expansion with them too.
Ovies just tend to deploy much better against T even if we disregard the ability to unload on enemy army, 300 gas is nothing to be laughed at. Against P, if I could nydus them, I probably already won.
I'd probably use nydus a lot more if cracklings have the same kind of destructive power as they did in sc1, but since they don't, an one-time investment in ovie drop will do pretty much the exact same thing. It isn't like it is too hard to secure distant expansions if you spread creep properly, and the one-unit-at-a-time way nydus unloads makes it hard to work with in base defense. Though to be honest, when I was playing T, I did take a ling-bling nydus that hurt a ton, but that was less about how nydus is good as it is how I screwed up and shouldn't have ended up in a situation like that anyway.
The most success I have had with nydus is really in 2v2, with more distant expos, keeping a few defensive units in nydus to deal with small harass has been fairly useful.
Worms also help bring T Mech out of position. I actually put a Nydus Worm in the back of a T's base so he unsieges his tanks and scrambles his army back to it, only bringing a few roaches or something out of it to make him think it's legit while I run my main army into his base and wreck him.
I have found that against good terrans who like to harass you with hellions on maps like Desert Oasis, having a nydus exit at each expansion so you can pop a portion of your army out will greatly thwart their attempts at harassing. Using nydus offensively can be good or bad depending on how you look use it, but on large maps or against drop play nydus can be the best thing to defend your bases with.
Regarding the Nydus Worm screaming. Can the opponent still hear it even if you're not using it on him?
Take Lost Temple for example. You spawn at 6 and you opponent at 12. You want to take the island expansion just right of you. Will he still hear a Nydus Worm being popped? Even though it's not used offensively against him and from far away?
Would like to do that more often but kinda defeats the purpose a bit if he panics and looks around his base wihtout seeing a Nydus. Then he might be suspicious of island expos and such instead revealing your otherwise extra and hidden base.
Why don't you combine Nydus with Ovie drop so you land units to secure a beach head and just throw all your larva into follow-up units. Also, why don't more people just use them like Nydus canal and Nydus all their bases together?
Who's jessyl and kungfukitten? It looks like zerg is way ahead of toss and could do whatever he wanted to anyways and still win. I mean he has enough money for the first nydus then 7 nydus worms more after that. That's insane. Zerg could have just built more units and attacked instead of buildings worms or he could have took his third and teched to bl or whatever.
On May 21 2010 05:58 avilo wrote: lol I made a thread about this and zergs overreacting to roach nerf but it was closed due to being blasphemous or something against what other "top players" are saying. /facepalms
but yes, nydus worms are very, very good, and zergs refuse to use them STILL. You can build many of them and spawn worms simultaneously. It is sick.
Eh they cost a good chunk of gas and are only really good when the other player isn't...
I have found much better luck with overlord drops.
wait, 100 gas is a lot? sure its 200 for the original canal, but....I don't think 100 is a lot, especially mid/late game....
It is just flat out UNTRUE that only a bad player will fall for them.
On June 06 2010 21:28 Antisocialmunky wrote: Why don't you combine Nydus with Ovie drop so you land units to secure a beach head and just throw all your larva into follow-up units. Also, why don't more people just use them like Nydus canal and Nydus all their bases together?
Because 100 gas for every base is just not practical when creep means my movement speed will be respectable anyway. It works for certain circumstances, but definitely not something I can see myself wanting to do often.
As for combining the two, well, that's not a bad idea, though just elevator dropping sounds just as effective.
On May 21 2010 05:58 avilo wrote: lol I made a thread about this and zergs overreacting to roach nerf but it was closed due to being blasphemous or something against what other "top players" are saying. /facepalms
but yes, nydus worms are very, very good, and zergs refuse to use them STILL. You can build many of them and spawn worms simultaneously. It is sick.
Eh they cost a good chunk of gas and are only really good when the other player isn't...
I have found much better luck with overlord drops.
wait, 100 gas is a lot? sure its 200 for the original canal, but....I don't think 100 is a lot, especially mid/late game....
It is just flat out UNTRUE that only a bad player will fall for them.
Yeah, 100 gas is a lot, since it won't be just 100, it'll be 100 * x where x increases exponentially as your opponent's skill gets better.
Nydus worms aren't just good when you sneak one at the back of an opponent base. I mean sure if he doesn't notice it you'll prolly rape most of his probes, but that's assuming he doesn't have full vision of his main which is rare on a high level. But they're also very useful to obtain tremendous army surrounds. Let's say on LT, you can build one behind the gold minerals (very slim chance of it being scouted if you don't destroy the rocks) and turn your natural choke into a deadly trap when he moves in. And obviously you can build some at your late expansions to shorten the distance. Plus it's kind of a psychological oppression : if you try to sneak a worm once, most of the time your opponent will get paranoid and start scouting around his base(s) like crazy, which might reduce his focus on macro. But still I see it as an additional tool or a coincidental game decider, it's not like you can think ' I'm gonna go for nydus networks every game cause they're so cool ' even if they actually are very cool ^^
I won about 5 games last night by heavily abusing nydus on slow ground armies. I found it was well worth the effort. In one game I was way behind against a terran mech army and I was able to abuse the sheer size of his base on blistering sands to pop worms up on both sides of his main and nat, pick off a bunch of buildings and then retreat. After the second nydus destroyed a row of supply depots, he never had enough supply to make units for the entire rest of the game. He couldn't get anything other than hellions over to destroy the worm. Lost temple and kulas ravine also worked extremely well with this strategy because you can pop up in so many locations he'd never even imagine.
I also found that once a second nydus entrance pops up and units stream from it, the player forgets that the first worm even exists. It is as if it overwhelms their management and then don't think to kill the first entrance.
In the UMS map "Art of Defense", there are custom mineral patches on the far side of the map that return a massive 150 per trip. I mined them using the Nydus Mining technique that was highlighted in a recent video.
I keep hearing of Nydus use on the Korean server, but I've only seen it used once or twice in really cool ways, I would like to see more youtube/commentaries on it. I keep hearing day9 talk about Sen's nydus use, but I can't for the life of me find a day9daily displaying it (if any of you know a episode with it I would be greatly apprechiative.)
I do feel Nydus use is pretty incredible late game, especially if both players are able to hold a few expos. It gives you very good map control.
I have never used them in a non cheesy way though lol, but haven't used them in many patches, I would like to incorporate them into my game. I do feel they have their use, but like most strategies it depends on what your opponent is doing. I dislike the people who pass it off as never having a use, that is just suborn...
unless you talk about Carriers most units are useful in some situations.
Im not really at the skill level where i would want to use gimmic moves, as there are tons of other things i can improve upon my gameplay without resorting to backstabbing my opponents base.
Using a Nydus is not any more gimmicky than dropping with overlords or positioning your army correctly. I might read you wrong here, but I get the impression that you see the NW as a cheap way to achieve victory. As I see it, it is another tool in your arsenal, and if you refrain from using it because you think its cheap, then that doesn't help in making you a better player whatsoever.
Just like rushing voidrays is another tool in protoss arsenal ;?
I agree with the fact that there is a fine line between utterly cheap and simply being more mobile, however rather than paying 300 gas for two nydus worms i would invest in either spire or hydra den and perhaps even get a few upgrades for the same price as two - three worms.
As day9 says. It is important to have the basics down and to understand all 3 matchups before you begin experimenting with terrain advantage, overlord drops and nydus worms.
Because if you can win without these cute things then when you finally start experimenting with them these cute things will become that much more deadly.
I agree that it is great and it can win you games but even in lower platinum, I just think that there are other ways to improve rather than corporate nydus worm and doom drops into your overall strategy.
You know, I learnt something a while back; if a strategy is good people will use it, but Id like to clear a few things up. Making NW doesnt have a guaranteed profit unlike a hydralisk or roach, you depend on micro and sometimes luck for it to pay off, so it cant become standard and will be very situational. Playing against a good player I dont feel the resource investment will be worth it because the NW will get sniped too often. Using them for defence sounds reasonable, you can run your drones but using it to save an expo seems worthless due to mobility of zerg on creep and how slow the units transfer. Right now NW feel like TvZ 2 port wraith... If excecuted perfectly it has a benefit but alot of room for error.
But seriously, if you have to run your drones, its likely your hatch will go down instead. And after giving it some thought its not better than a drop in anyway, if it is, give me a circumstance?... Lastly another reason that its useless is the fact that if hes attacking your base, why not attack his... base trading favors zerg afterall. Overall I just see it a D- iCCup strategy equivelent of a hidden expo. Honestly, by the time they get NW how can you not have full vision of your main base?
edit: Course you'd have to deal with your nydus getting killed when you're in transit.
Yes, and please keep in mind that if at some moment all of your nydus networks/worms get killed, the units inside them are gone forever, even if you rebuild the NN.
This can also be abused vs Zerg - if you notice the Zerg uses Nydus, try to kill the worms and networks while he is transitioning. It could be instant loss of a very huge army.
On May 21 2010 05:58 avilo wrote: lol I made a thread about this and zergs overreacting to roach nerf but it was closed due to being blasphemous or something against what other "top players" are saying. /facepalms
but yes, nydus worms are very, very good, and zergs refuse to use them STILL. You can build many of them and spawn worms simultaneously. It is sick.
Eh they cost a good chunk of gas and are only really good when the other player isn't...
I have found much better luck with overlord drops.
wait, 100 gas is a lot? sure its 200 for the original canal, but....I don't think 100 is a lot, especially mid/late game....
It is just flat out UNTRUE that only a bad player will fall for them.
On May 20 2010 19:26 a176 wrote: I thought everyone used nydus
same...
im a bad player and I think their value is completely obvious....
Rofl...
It's been said so many times here. The gas cost is too high comparatively. Drop is better in so many ways, the ONLY advantage it has is that it is instant transport (sortof). In attacking, drops are so much better because there is no alert that you are about to be attacked until your units have taken damage. Another under recognised // under appreciated fact is that drops will get your units out faster, an opposed drop as compared to an opposed offensive nydus will do much more damage and your units will be much more efficient.
Drops are a single 200/200 (300/300? with speed)cost, and can be used at any time you wish. Offensive nydus can be stopped, and you will lose 100/100. Drops can be pulled back such that the user will not lose anything. Drops seen over your base on the minimap will do damage. Seeing a nydus in your base means you have 20 seconds to kill it before he can get anything out. And even if you dont kill it, you can just snipe all the units coming out of it single file.
Basically, a nydus exit is a 100/100 gamble that guarantees nothing that a drop could not do without taking the same 100/100 risk.
Lastly, nydus will not work against a decent player who hasnt made the mistake of leaving his base open to a drop anyways.
1. Its faster and more flexible in most cases. 2. Units in the NN do not get killed if the Worm gets killed. 3. If scouted and repelled, then you only lose 1 Worm (100/100), while a repelled Drop can be desastrous. 4. In long macro games it can be used defensively to connect hatcheries. 5. with nicely spread tumors you have sight over a huge area on the map and can possibly use the Network very tactically.
On June 18 2010 16:58 Skillz_Man wrote: You know, I learnt something a while back; if a strategy is good people will use it, but Id like to clear a few things up. Making NW doesnt have a guaranteed profit unlike a hydralisk or roach, you depend on micro and sometimes luck for it to pay off, so it cant become standard and will be very situational. Playing against a good player I dont feel the resource investment will be worth it because the NW will get sniped too often. Using them for defence sounds reasonable, you can run your drones but using it to save an expo seems worthless due to mobility of zerg on creep and how slow the units transfer. Right now NW feel like TvZ 2 port wraith... If excecuted perfectly it has a benefit but alot of room for error.
But seriously, if you have to run your drones, its likely your hatch will go down instead. And after giving it some thought its not better than a drop in anyway, if it is, give me a circumstance?... Lastly another reason that its useless is the fact that if hes attacking your base, why not attack his... base trading favors zerg afterall. Overall I just see it a D- iCCup strategy equivelent of a hidden expo. Honestly, by the time they get NW how can you not have full vision of your main base?
Whether something depends on micro to work or not doesnt a lot of influence on the viability of a tactic/strategy as you might learn from the BW history. Many tactics and strategies that are common in BW need a shitload of micromanagement.
I think if you want to use the network offensively then you can achieve that not only by hoping that your opponent doesnt see it...
Personally i'd rather research the drop mechanic for offensive use. Nydus is fine for a sneak attack if you see an opening to use it, but if your opponent scouts his base i find it pretty useless. Plus you can't 'fake nydus' the same way you can fake drop.
I tried to use it defensively to connect my bases in a couple games but the worm kept getting killed leaving half my army at the other base. Creep tumors are practically free and works nearly as fast but your army stays together.
Nydus is crazy good, just gotta be used correctly.
Its not a necessity to make it into someones base with it. It can be used a la SC1 sauce, insta porting your units all accross the map. It literraly is the BEST mobility a ground army can get in the whole game.
It works best on larger maps though, because their effect and potential just exponentially rise.
Ive used em to great effect on desert oasis, having like 5-6 nyduses in key locations, doing hit and runs, porting back to defend, porting foward to strike/harass. Really, Zerg could be imba on larger maps only due to that mechanic.
Nydus in SC1 was crazy good. Withoutthe creep restriction in SC2, its just that much better.
nydus worms take too long to build, and are easily spotted/killed by good terrans before you can do much if anything at all with them, you can kill a nydus worm with scvs/probes, i personally prefer drops, almost in every case
Nydus canal and overlord drops; Both have their uses obviously, but on maps where there are island expansions (LT for instance) I think zerg should favor getting overlord transport BEFORE Nydus canal because it can not only be useful to drop but also to expand and/or destroy expands on the islands.
Sure, you can pop a worm on an island to expand if you got vision, but IMO that's not as practical as using a worm on the mainland.
I love the nydus network. It can really get you back into games you're losing.
The thing is, people as of now tend to use them less as networks and more like dropships. They're supposed to be networks; a way to instantly get you anywhere on the map. They're easily spotted and killed, but what if there is more than one going up at a time? You don't know which one the army is going to pop out of
What I've done is created a ton of worms and used them to get to all his bases before he could catch my army. Nydus an expo, wipe some stuff out. See his army coming, back into the Nydus, pop up another one at his main, do some damage, back into the Nydus, on to another expo. He couldn't attack my main because I could just get all my forces back there immediately, so I killed a ton of his stuff before I even had to engage his army. My army didn't win, but I had about 4 hatcheries and he had almost no production facilities, so i really overpowered him in the second battle.
On May 20 2010 19:53 7mk wrote:getting a nydus done vs a really good player is just soo hard, if they play right you wont ever be able to get a nydus in their base. I mean as long as they spot their whole base even scvs can kill a nydus easily, cant say the same for drops.
A good player knows that you can put your nydus worm anywhere; you don't have to go for an immediate win by placing it in their base. Players only lose to a nydus worm in the back of their base once.
Put a worm at an expo that hasn't been taken yet so that you can A) take the expo and transfer drones without them being spotted and B) flank from that position immediately giving you a mobility advantage.
Overdrop seems to work way better imo. Nydus has very small windows where they may end up being better, but that also requires opponent to make more mistakes aka. not noticing the nydus. Even 5scvs can take nydus out if noticed, so all you really need is minimap and visibility of whole your base.
I'd see nydus working decently if you wanted to do it really fast and catch opponent offguard when he only has some towers and only started massing raxes and such. Other option to work is if opponent lets you make nydus to their main, and close to their exp or 3rd. With some nydus back'n'forth balling you're destined to get all but 1 of his bases down eventually
But really I don't see how often terran could allow this. Nyduses just don't seem as good against T, but they have decent potential vP/Z.
Put a worm at an expo that hasn't been taken yet so that you can A) take the expo and transfer drones without them being spotted and B) flank from that position immediately giving you a mobility advantage.
Moving your drones/flanking army in position doesn't have the huge *SWOOOOOOOOOOSH* sound attached If I hear nydus sound and don't get attacked within 10sec, it's pretty much guaranteed opponent has taken island with it. I can just take it out with air units/drop without scouting, since there really is no other sensible option - zerg can have decent enough map control to move armies relatively unnoticed for flanking positions without nyduses.
Moving your drones/flanking army in position doesn't have the huge *SWOOOOOOOOOOSH* sound attached If I hear nydus sound and don't get attacked within 10sec, it's pretty much guaranteed opponent has taken island with it. I can just take it out with air units/drop without scouting, since there really is no other sensible option - zerg can have decent enough map control to move armies relatively unnoticed for flanking positions without nyduses.
You forget that nydus worm flanks and drone transfers cannot be spotted by zel'naga watch towers.
If you hear a nydus worm and aren't attacked within 10 seconds, you have absolutely no clue where the nydus worm is. For all you know I am simply connecting my expos together. Not many maps have islands and only a foolish zerg would try to take an Island if they didn't have an air force of their own to support their investment. No, you cannot make any generalizations with where nydus worms will be placed especially at this stage where people have not explored all the possibilities of the nydus worm.
I'd love to see replys of using the worm effectivly, because I don't seem to have the imagination to make them worth the investment. I agree that as a network that have serious potental.
Im not really at the skill level where i would want to use gimmic moves, as there are tons of other things i can improve upon my gameplay without resorting to backstabbing my opponents base.
Using a Nydus is not any more gimmicky than dropping with overlords or positioning your army correctly. I might read you wrong here, but I get the impression that you see the NW as a cheap way to achieve victory. As I see it, it is another tool in your arsenal, and if you refrain from using it because you think its cheap, then that doesn't help in making you a better player whatsoever.
So true. Often we see in this forums new SC players that want to win "without doing X".
What's up with that? If you can win with X it's not smart to restrain from it.
Theorycrafting alternatives on how to deal with something is one thing, but loosing 5 games in a row to a two gate because you just don't want to throw down a couple of spines.
It's OK to try to be a smartass and lowbudget things, but players tend to suffer from this.
The goal is to win. If two spines, a drop or a nydus is the way to get the advantage that you need (by attacking or refusing an attack) that is what you need to do.
Great post. I have to agree. The nydus worm is, aesthetically and strategically, my favorite addition to Zerg play. The resource investment of nydus worms makes low cost units like zerglings alot more dynamic. We don't need cliff jumpers. Let the enemies of the Zerg fear the ground beneath there feet.
On June 18 2010 20:17 clickrush wrote: Nydus Network has five advatages over drops:
1. Its faster and more flexible in most cases. 2. Units in the NN do not get killed if the Worm gets killed. 3. If scouted and repelled, then you only lose 1 Worm (100/100), while a repelled Drop can be desastrous. 4. In long macro games it can be used defensively to connect hatcheries. 5. with nicely spread tumors you have sight over a huge area on the map and can possibly use the Network very tactically.
On June 18 2010 16:58 Skillz_Man wrote: You know, I learnt something a while back; if a strategy is good people will use it, but Id like to clear a few things up. Making NW doesnt have a guaranteed profit unlike a hydralisk or roach, you depend on micro and sometimes luck for it to pay off, so it cant become standard and will be very situational. Playing against a good player I dont feel the resource investment will be worth it because the NW will get sniped too often. Using them for defence sounds reasonable, you can run your drones but using it to save an expo seems worthless due to mobility of zerg on creep and how slow the units transfer. Right now NW feel like TvZ 2 port wraith... If excecuted perfectly it has a benefit but alot of room for error.
But seriously, if you have to run your drones, its likely your hatch will go down instead. And after giving it some thought its not better than a drop in anyway, if it is, give me a circumstance?... Lastly another reason that its useless is the fact that if hes attacking your base, why not attack his... base trading favors zerg afterall. Overall I just see it a D- iCCup strategy equivelent of a hidden expo. Honestly, by the time they get NW how can you not have full vision of your main base?
Whether something depends on micro to work or not doesnt a lot of influence on the viability of a tactic/strategy as you might learn from the BW history. Many tactics and strategies that are common in BW need a shitload of micromanagement.
I think if you want to use the network offensively then you can achieve that not only by hoping that your opponent doesnt see it...
I would appreciate if you named 3 builds that are micro heavy besides the ones that you are forced to micro to survive, example is templar PvZ at lower than B level. Pretty much all builds are very straight up, you don't see people going reavers late game PvP even though they make your army stronger people don't use them because there is that extra multitasking step and the fear of your drop getting killed. The reknown build Sair/Reaver that everyone calls the highest requiring APM build is not just because it's multitasking heavy but it's risky, your corsairs are off position, your shuttle gets sniped, GG... Only pros attempt those builds because they are risky.
Nydus networks are exactly that, they are risky and they don't have a fixed profit, maybe you make a nydus network for drone defence but he is doing a timing push instead of harassment, I don't see it becoming a standard part of a play, it's like why isn't a DA used in BW, it looks good on paper.
And regarding your points:
1. It's faster? Do you know how slow units unload? And how easily it can be sighted. 2. Units do not get killed, hmm that true. 3. Pretty much every single one will be scouted, don't use them offensively. 4. Again this looks good on paper but it's not, 4 hellions get in your base and your drones will die before you can even see that they are getting attacked half the time, and don't even try to use it to defend a timing push. 5. This tactical advantage can be easily killed because if your opponent has map control he can nicely take them out and creep is fast enough as it is, therefore the only real purpose of this idea would be a flank or run units into the base. Now to make a network like you speak of youd need what, 1000/1000, or more? Will you do enough damage with this tactical advantage every game? I doubt it, you can use overlords to almost the same extent for strategic play but at a much cheaper cost, risking that much resources in hoping to do a flank could be some pimpest play type thing but it wont happen often since getting behind a terran army on creep isn't super difficult. The speed of NW and how slow they spew out units is just ridicolous, if they want to see an actual use, atleast make it twice as fast. Doing a strategic play yet it takes 30 seconds to move 30 lings, 10 hydra, 20 roach.... I don't think so.
I use nydus a great deal, and have gotten very good success. The fast nydus works very well against all races, except zerg, and even then it sometimes works. Nydus is the great way to surprise a player, and its more of a good start than a cheese all in.
Edit: If hellions get to your base you can hide them in your nydus, no joke, the hellions cant kill a nydus.... The units in his base will do more damage than 4 hellions attacking buildings.
The way I see it, investing in a Nydus Worm is giving you the option of using them in the future if you see an opportunity. Of course you'll see more opportunities in worse opponents, but even good opponents may be careless and offer a weakness (the games with Liquid`Nazgul are a decent example of that).
But obviously to invest in something just for the possibility of using it in the future in some narrow case is silly.
Really the question is: Do Nydus Worms confer any benefit even if we're never presented with the opportunity to worm the opponent's throat? And that answer is well, sometimes.
Watching Artosis' stream, I've seen him nydus to island expansions. This has the obvious benefit of being able to transfer lots of drones at once to and from the base without having to move your overlord fleet there to do it. In that way, you can use the worm opportunistically (if you see an opening) but there's still a use for it if you don't find that opening.
If you want to incorporate Nydus play into your games, you need to find some use for them which will validate their existence every time. Whether or not you can find that use is up to you.
Moving your drones/flanking army in position doesn't have the huge *SWOOOOOOOOOOSH* sound attached If I hear nydus sound and don't get attacked within 10sec, it's pretty much guaranteed opponent has taken island with it. I can just take it out with air units/drop without scouting, since there really is no other sensible option - zerg can have decent enough map control to move armies relatively unnoticed for flanking positions without nyduses.
You forget that nydus worm flanks and drone transfers cannot be spotted by zel'naga watch towers.
If you hear a nydus worm and aren't attacked within 10 seconds, you have absolutely no clue where the nydus worm is. For all you know I am simply connecting my expos together. Not many maps have islands and only a foolish zerg would try to take an Island if they didn't have an air force of their own to support their investment. No, you cannot make any generalizations with where nydus worms will be placed especially at this stage where people have not explored all the possibilities of the nydus worm.
150/200 and 100/100 for all extras is too expensive to do for just "connecting", it has to cause tons of real dmg to become worth it. If you seriously claim the first SWOOSH can tell about something else than offensive use, that working at top level is fairytales. If it wasn't offensive, it was 250/300 down the drain, completely revealing your hand and letting opponent know to build something to get vision for whole of his territory. Zerg can't waste gas for something that can't work as important offense at some point, and nydus' effect is so easily countered once its use is known by opponent. I really can't think of situation where nyduses were really needed for defense either, since armies move so fast from side to side if there's creep between. Most lategame drop harrasses can be dealt with lings, and I'm confident I'd get lings to place faster withOUT nyduses.
And really, isn't keeping nagatowers as zerg pretty standard? If I'm not able to keep them (when there's max 2 in map), I'm usually at backfoot to begin with.
On June 19 2010 06:31 Galleon.frigate wrote: I'd love to see replys of using the worm effectivly, because I don't seem to have the imagination to make them worth the investment. I agree that as a network that have serious potental.
On June 19 2010 06:31 Galleon.frigate wrote: I'd love to see replys of using the worm effectivly, because I don't seem to have the imagination to make them worth the investment. I agree that as a network that have serious potental.
We have to be careful when approaching such videos. Much of the success of that play was not due to the brilliance of Zerg, rather it was due to the inability of Protoss to manage two armies at once.
Although I do commend that Zerg player for trying to think out of the box and come up with new ways to use Nydus Networks - this kind of thinking is what pushes the strategic envelope.
On June 18 2010 20:17 clickrush wrote: Nydus Network has five advatages over drops:
1. Its faster and more flexible in most cases. 2. Units in the NN do not get killed if the Worm gets killed. 3. If scouted and repelled, then you only lose 1 Worm (100/100), while a repelled Drop can be desastrous. 4. In long macro games it can be used defensively to connect hatcheries. 5. with nicely spread tumors you have sight over a huge area on the map and can possibly use the Network very tactically.
On June 18 2010 16:58 Skillz_Man wrote: 1. It's faster? Do you know how slow units unload? And how easily it can be sighted. 2. Units do not get killed, hmm that true. 3. Pretty much every single one will be scouted, don't use them offensively. 4. Again this looks good on paper but it's not, 4 hellions get in your base and your drones will die before you can even see that they are getting attacked half the time, and don't even try to use it to defend a timing push. 5. This tactical advantage can be easily killed because if your opponent has map control he can...
1. Units unload pretty fast from worms; at least it's not any slower than unloading from a drop. How easily it can be sighted depends on how good you are at placing them. There are usually plenty of blind spots that you can plop nydus worms down. You don't necessarily have to place them inside someone's base every time you use it. Even if it's just outside a player's base you will still save a lot of time moving your army from place to place. 3. Not every single one will be scouted. You can increase the chance that they dont' scout them by diverting their attention. Harass an expo than nydus their main while they're busy defending/paying attention to the expo. Nydus when they move out so their army is out of position. Using them offensively can work, you just have to be smart about it. 4. Apparently you've never seen pros use nydus canals in BW to defend bases? Using them to stop vulture harass or other such types of runbys were very common in mid-late game BW as it allows Zerg to effectively defend almost all of their expos. Obviously it won't really help for early game harass since they're pretty expensive and take a while to get, but they most definitely have a strong defensive use. 5. Map control is always an issue, but the mobility of nydus worms can help give you the edge in map control.
For some more recent nydus use, watch Gerrard vs Nazgul, g4 and g5, or some of the many Sen games.
Nydus can be very effective, its like a lot of people have said, nydus worms possibilities havent been fully explored, and there are a lot of situations where nydus is a good idea.
On June 18 2010 20:17 clickrush wrote: Nydus Network has five advatages over drops:
1. Its faster and more flexible in most cases. 2. Units in the NN do not get killed if the Worm gets killed. 3. If scouted and repelled, then you only lose 1 Worm (100/100), while a repelled Drop can be desastrous. 4. In long macro games it can be used defensively to connect hatcheries. 5. with nicely spread tumors you have sight over a huge area on the map and can possibly use the Network very tactically.
On June 18 2010 16:58 Skillz_Man wrote: 1. It's faster? Do you know how slow units unload? And how easily it can be sighted. 2. Units do not get killed, hmm that true. 3. Pretty much every single one will be scouted, don't use them offensively. 4. Again this looks good on paper but it's not, 4 hellions get in your base and your drones will die before you can even see that they are getting attacked half the time, and don't even try to use it to defend a timing push. 5. This tactical advantage can be easily killed because if your opponent has map control he can...
1. Units unload pretty fast from worms; at least it's not any slower than unloading from a drop. How easily it can be sighted depends on how good you are at placing them. There are usually plenty of blind spots that you can plop nydus worms down. You don't necessarily have to place them inside someone's base every time you use it. Even if it's just outside a player's base you will still save a lot of time moving your army from place to place. 3. Not every single one will be scouted. You can increase the chance that they dont' scout them by diverting their attention. Harass an expo than nydus their main while they're busy defending/paying attention to the expo. Nydus when they move out so their army is out of position. Using them offensively can work, you just have to be smart about it. 4. Apparently you've never seen pros use nydus canals in BW to defend bases? Using them to stop vulture harass or other such types of runbys were very common in mid-late game BW as it allows Zerg to effectively defend almost all of their expos. Obviously it won't really help for early game harass since they're pretty expensive and take a while to get, but they most definitely have a strong defensive use. 5. Map control is always an issue, but the mobility of nydus worms can help give you the edge in map control.
EDIT: Editted quotes to save space
1. Drops unload faster, it's a fact, don't fight it 3. Too many are scouted to be worth it, I don't see how it's possible to not have a vision of your complete expo + main base by the 8 minute mark, sorry but no, drops just have too many advantages over them offensively. 4. My point exactly. PROS use them, how often? I see them maybe 25% of the late game plays in ZvT (10% of all games?), but transport units much faster, harasses are much harder to do in SC2. Try going through SC1 foreignor videos and post them here. I want to see 2 videos of where foreignors use them efficiently.
There is a reason Nydus wasn't used much in SC1, the game was figured out well enough to be used if they were useful enough, and to me it feels SC1 nydus was stronger for defence counter measures. I can go tell you for SC1 go make Dark Templars against a terran and youll win all your games if you're D-... In SC2 you can say the same if you are at that level. I still have yet to see a high level Nydus play in SC2, wouldn't it have atleast been talked about a BIT if it was powerful?
I really don't see nydus being used for drop like attacks don't think they are meant to be used for that for the most part. i mean 10 sec spawn time is a long time for them to get over there and kill it. I feel its more for tossing nydus worms at all your bases and useing them for def or quick flanks. Securing island easy etc.
I mean toss a nydus at ever base its only 100/100 oh noes and you have super super mobily def. and you can hide the size and makeup of your force really easy.
I think it would be better to make yourself better at playing more standard plays rather than using this kind of strategy. After you got a solid sense of play, I think you can execute different strategies better.
On June 18 2010 20:17 clickrush wrote: Nydus Network has five advatages over drops:
1. Its faster and more flexible in most cases. 2. Units in the NN do not get killed if the Worm gets killed. 3. If scouted and repelled, then you only lose 1 Worm (100/100), while a repelled Drop can be desastrous. 4. In long macro games it can be used defensively to connect hatcheries. 5. with nicely spread tumors you have sight over a huge area on the map and can possibly use the Network very tactically.
On June 18 2010 16:58 Skillz_Man wrote: 1. It's faster? Do you know how slow units unload? And how easily it can be sighted. 2. Units do not get killed, hmm that true. 3. Pretty much every single one will be scouted, don't use them offensively. 4. Again this looks good on paper but it's not, 4 hellions get in your base and your drones will die before you can even see that they are getting attacked half the time, and don't even try to use it to defend a timing push. 5. This tactical advantage can be easily killed because if your opponent has map control he can...
1. Units unload pretty fast from worms; at least it's not any slower than unloading from a drop. How easily it can be sighted depends on how good you are at placing them. There are usually plenty of blind spots that you can plop nydus worms down. You don't necessarily have to place them inside someone's base every time you use it. Even if it's just outside a player's base you will still save a lot of time moving your army from place to place. 3. Not every single one will be scouted. You can increase the chance that they dont' scout them by diverting their attention. Harass an expo than nydus their main while they're busy defending/paying attention to the expo. Nydus when they move out so their army is out of position. Using them offensively can work, you just have to be smart about it. 4. Apparently you've never seen pros use nydus canals in BW to defend bases? Using them to stop vulture harass or other such types of runbys were very common in mid-late game BW as it allows Zerg to effectively defend almost all of their expos. Obviously it won't really help for early game harass since they're pretty expensive and take a while to get, but they most definitely have a strong defensive use. 5. Map control is always an issue, but the mobility of nydus worms can help give you the edge in map control.
EDIT: Editted quotes to save space
1. Drops unload faster, it's a fact, don't fight it 3. Too many are scouted to be worth it, I don't see how it's possible to not have a vision of your complete expo + main base by the 8 minute mark, sorry but no, drops just have too many advantages over them offensively. 4. My point exactly. PROS use them, how often? I see them maybe 25% of the late game plays in ZvT (10% of all games?), but transport units much faster, harasses are much harder to do in SC2. Try going through SC1 foreignor videos and post them here. I want to see 2 videos of where foreignors use them efficiently.
There is a reason Nydus wasn't used much in SC1, the game was figured out well enough to be used if they were useful enough, and to me it feels SC1 nydus was stronger for defence counter measures. I can go tell you for SC1 go make Dark Templars against a terran and youll win all your games if you're D-... In SC2 you can say the same if you are at that level. I still have yet to see a high level Nydus play in SC2, wouldn't it have atleast been talked about a BIT if it was powerful?
I'm not saying you are wrong in what you are saying, but here is one play were you could say the nydas won the day at a fairly high level. Not a standard game though.
On June 19 2010 09:18 xnub wrote: I really don't see nydus being used for drop like attacks don't think they are meant to be used for that for the most part. i mean 10 sec spawn time is a long time for them to get over there and kill it. I feel its more for tossing nydus worms at all your bases and useing them for def or quick flanks. Securing island easy etc.
I mean toss a nydus at ever base its only 100/100 oh noes and you have super super mobily def. and you can hide the size and makeup of your force really easy.
Yeah this is probably close to the truth. I went a lot for nydas worms at the end of the beta, and on a map like steps of war, it's almost impossible to get a nydas up in you opponents base. At least if he discovers the first one, then you can throw nydas from left to right and they still will be taken down.
On June 18 2010 20:17 clickrush wrote: Nydus Network has five advatages over drops:
1. Its faster and more flexible in most cases. 2. Units in the NN do not get killed if the Worm gets killed. 3. If scouted and repelled, then you only lose 1 Worm (100/100), while a repelled Drop can be desastrous. 4. In long macro games it can be used defensively to connect hatcheries. 5. with nicely spread tumors you have sight over a huge area on the map and can possibly use the Network very tactically.
On June 18 2010 16:58 Skillz_Man wrote: 1. It's faster? Do you know how slow units unload? And how easily it can be sighted. 2. Units do not get killed, hmm that true. 3. Pretty much every single one will be scouted, don't use them offensively. 4. Again this looks good on paper but it's not, 4 hellions get in your base and your drones will die before you can even see that they are getting attacked half the time, and don't even try to use it to defend a timing push. 5. This tactical advantage can be easily killed because if your opponent has map control he can...
1. Units unload pretty fast from worms; at least it's not any slower than unloading from a drop. How easily it can be sighted depends on how good you are at placing them. There are usually plenty of blind spots that you can plop nydus worms down. You don't necessarily have to place them inside someone's base every time you use it. Even if it's just outside a player's base you will still save a lot of time moving your army from place to place. 3. Not every single one will be scouted. You can increase the chance that they dont' scout them by diverting their attention. Harass an expo than nydus their main while they're busy defending/paying attention to the expo. Nydus when they move out so their army is out of position. Using them offensively can work, you just have to be smart about it. 4. Apparently you've never seen pros use nydus canals in BW to defend bases? Using them to stop vulture harass or other such types of runbys were very common in mid-late game BW as it allows Zerg to effectively defend almost all of their expos. Obviously it won't really help for early game harass since they're pretty expensive and take a while to get, but they most definitely have a strong defensive use. 5. Map control is always an issue, but the mobility of nydus worms can help give you the edge in map control.
EDIT: Editted quotes to save space
1. Drops unload faster, it's a fact, don't fight it 3. Too many are scouted to be worth it, I don't see how it's possible to not have a vision of your complete expo + main base by the 8 minute mark, sorry but no, drops just have too many advantages over them offensively. 4. My point exactly. PROS use them, how often? I see them maybe 25% of the late game plays in ZvT (10% of all games?), but transport units much faster, harasses are much harder to do in SC2. Try going through SC1 foreignor videos and post them here. I want to see 2 videos of where foreignors use them efficiently.
There is a reason Nydus wasn't used much in SC1, the game was figured out well enough to be used if they were useful enough, and to me it feels SC1 nydus was stronger for defence counter measures. I can go tell you for SC1 go make Dark Templars against a terran and youll win all your games if you're D-... In SC2 you can say the same if you are at that level. I still have yet to see a high level Nydus play in SC2, wouldn't it have atleast been talked about a BIT if it was powerful?
I'm not saying you are wrong in what you are saying, but here is one play were you could say the nydas won the day at a fairly high level. Not a standard game though.
Oh right, I saw that one, yeah in that situation that was without a doubt a good move but again it was against proxy facts and not really late game. Looking at that I actually do question weather a drop would have been better since the wait time for the nydus to go up but it achieved the same effect. I was thinking more along the lines of a lategame 4v3 base type thing where sneaking a few lings/baneligs would be extremely difficult. But yeah, it's an example I guess, I dislike the curcimastance of this, and this is the only situation I see where it would be useful, but whatever.
1. Drops unload faster, it's a fact, don't fight it 3. Too many are scouted to be worth it, I don't see how it's possible to not have a vision of your complete expo + main base by the 8 minute mark, sorry but no, drops just have too many advantages over them offensively. 4. My point exactly. PROS use them, how often? I see them maybe 25% of the late game plays in ZvT (10% of all games?), but transport units much faster, harasses are much harder to do in SC2. Try going through SC1 foreignor videos and post them here. I want to see 2 videos of where foreignors use them efficiently.
There is a reason Nydus wasn't used much in SC1, the game was figured out well enough to be used if they were useful enough, and to me it feels SC1 nydus was stronger for defence counter measures. I can go tell you for SC1 go make Dark Templars against a terran and youll win all your games if you're D-... In SC2 you can say the same if you are at that level. I still have yet to see a high level Nydus play in SC2, wouldn't it have atleast been talked about a BIT if it was powerful?
1.Drops dont insta warp you through the whole map in any possible location. 3. Again, stop seeing them as a mean of getting into someones base. They can do the exact same thing as in SC1, just better.
Lack of use doesnt mean lack of utility. More pros used em actually when it got to hive tech ( jaedong never missed to make em).
Sc1 worm was better than sc2's? You on crack? Please elaborate, cause you pulled that out out of nowhere.
Dont make em if you dont want to, your just not using great tool. On big maps, being able to insta warp YOUR WHOLE ground army to any location is the best tactical advantage you can get. And stop saying someone can snipe your nydus. Its in your base, right next to your rally, and your whole army can pop out of it to deal with the threat.
1. Drops unload faster, it's a fact, don't fight it 3. Too many are scouted to be worth it, I don't see how it's possible to not have a vision of your complete expo + main base by the 8 minute mark, sorry but no, drops just have too many advantages over them offensively. 4. My point exactly. PROS use them, how often? I see them maybe 25% of the late game plays in ZvT (10% of all games?), but transport units much faster, harasses are much harder to do in SC2. Try going through SC1 foreignor videos and post them here. I want to see 2 videos of where foreignors use them efficiently.
There is a reason Nydus wasn't used much in SC1, the game was figured out well enough to be used if they were useful enough, and to me it feels SC1 nydus was stronger for defence counter measures. I can go tell you for SC1 go make Dark Templars against a terran and youll win all your games if you're D-... In SC2 you can say the same if you are at that level. I still have yet to see a high level Nydus play in SC2, wouldn't it have atleast been talked about a BIT if it was powerful?
1.Drops dont insta warp you through the whole map in any possible location. 3. Again, stop seeing them as a mean of getting into someones base. They can do the exact same thing as in SC1, just better.
Lack of use doesnt mean lack of utility. More pros used em actually when it got to hive tech ( jaedong never missed to make em).
Sc1 worm was better than sc2's? You on crack? Please elaborate, cause you pulled that out out of nowhere.
Dont make em if you dont want to, your just not using great tool. On big maps, being able to insta warp YOUR WHOLE ground army to any location is the best tactical advantage you can get. And stop saying someone can snipe your nydus. Its in your base, right next to your rally, and your whole army can pop out of it to deal with the threat.
Let's get behind the fact they will be used offensively, they are not faster than drops since you have to build them first, they are probably about same speed depending on rush distance. SC1 nydus is better for defence because they teleport your army fast, if you have 20 drones at an expo, you are going to get so many killed because they will be lined up trying to get inside.
Yes JD makes them very often, he usually doesn't end up putting it to use because hes not getting harassed, it's a thing you can do to play a safe game ofcourse. And please stop being stupid, insta warp your entire army? Have you even used a Nydus yet? -.-... One Nydus will take like a minute to warp your entire army. I honestly don't think youve used them before since their use is very limited due to their speed. If they doubled the number of units that get through per second then yeah, it would be more viable, but as of now it's WAY to slow to move anything more than 5 drones from a harass.
You really don't understand Nydus's do you? I wasn't talking about sniping a nydus, correct me if I'm wrong but you want it as a network to get around your bases? Pretty much the only point of a harass is to kill workers besides I guess the old 2 immortal harass. The point is, Nydus transports too slow so it has no defensive manuavers.
A time I see that Nydus is viable is you know your opponent is planning to do a big push into one of your expos and hes regrouping his army at your choke, warp some units in while you have time and Flank him from behind with the rest, besides that you might see it in some unconventianal plays, but it doesn't measure up to the SC1 nydus in defensive.
1. Drops unload faster, it's a fact, don't fight it 3. Too many are scouted to be worth it, I don't see how it's possible to not have a vision of your complete expo + main base by the 8 minute mark, sorry but no, drops just have too many advantages over them offensively. 4. My point exactly. PROS use them, how often? I see them maybe 25% of the late game plays in ZvT (10% of all games?), but transport units much faster, harasses are much harder to do in SC2. Try going through SC1 foreignor videos and post them here. I want to see 2 videos of where foreignors use them efficiently.
There is a reason Nydus wasn't used much in SC1, the game was figured out well enough to be used if they were useful enough, and to me it feels SC1 nydus was stronger for defence counter measures. I can go tell you for SC1 go make Dark Templars against a terran and youll win all your games if you're D-... In SC2 you can say the same if you are at that level. I still have yet to see a high level Nydus play in SC2, wouldn't it have atleast been talked about a BIT if it was powerful?
1.Drops dont insta warp you through the whole map in any possible location. 3. Again, stop seeing them as a mean of getting into someones base. They can do the exact same thing as in SC1, just better.
Lack of use doesnt mean lack of utility. More pros used em actually when it got to hive tech ( jaedong never missed to make em).
Sc1 worm was better than sc2's? You on crack? Please elaborate, cause you pulled that out out of nowhere.
Dont make em if you dont want to, your just not using great tool. On big maps, being able to insta warp YOUR WHOLE ground army to any location is the best tactical advantage you can get. And stop saying someone can snipe your nydus. Its in your base, right next to your rally, and your whole army can pop out of it to deal with the threat.
Let's get behind the fact they will be used offensively, they are not faster than drops since you have to build them first, they are probably about same speed depending on rush distance. SC1 nydus is better for defence because they teleport your army fast, if you have 20 drones at an expo, you are going to get so many killed because they will be lined up trying to get inside.
Yes JD makes them very often, he usually doesn't end up putting it to use because hes not getting harassed, it's a thing you can do to play a safe game ofcourse. And please stop being stupid, insta warp your entire army? Have you even used a Nydus yet? -.-... One Nydus will take like a minute to warp your entire army. I honestly don't think youve used them before since their use is very limited due to their speed. If they doubled the number of units that get through per second then yeah, it would be more viable, but as of now it's WAY to slow to move anything more than 5 drones from a harass.
You really don't understand Nydus's do you? I wasn't talking about sniping a nydus, correct me if I'm wrong but you want it as a network to get around your bases? Pretty much the only point of a harass is to kill workers besides I guess the old 2 immortal harass. The point is, Nydus transports too slow so it has no defensive manuavers.
A time I see that Nydus is viable is you know your opponent is planning to do a big push into one of your expos and hes regrouping his army at your choke, warp some units in while you have time and Flank him from behind with the rest, besides that you might see it in some unconventianal plays, but it doesn't measure up to the SC1 nydus in defensive.
I will test this when beta gets back up but I'm quite sure you are way overexaggerating the slowness of the unloading.
According to liquipedia, a nydus worm unloads 1 unit per .5 seconds and loads 1 unit per .25 seconds. An overlord, on the other hand, unloads 1 unit per second, but can load as many units as it can hold simultaneously. In other words, offensively, a nydus worm is MUCH faster at unloading stuff than a regular drop; drops do NOT unload faster. Check liquipedia yourself if you don't believe me.
1. Drops unload faster, it's a fact, don't fight it 3. Too many are scouted to be worth it, I don't see how it's possible to not have a vision of your complete expo + main base by the 8 minute mark, sorry but no, drops just have too many advantages over them offensively. 4. My point exactly. PROS use them, how often? I see them maybe 25% of the late game plays in ZvT (10% of all games?), but transport units much faster, harasses are much harder to do in SC2. Try going through SC1 foreignor videos and post them here. I want to see 2 videos of where foreignors use them efficiently.
There is a reason Nydus wasn't used much in SC1, the game was figured out well enough to be used if they were useful enough, and to me it feels SC1 nydus was stronger for defence counter measures. I can go tell you for SC1 go make Dark Templars against a terran and youll win all your games if you're D-... In SC2 you can say the same if you are at that level. I still have yet to see a high level Nydus play in SC2, wouldn't it have atleast been talked about a BIT if it was powerful?
1.Drops dont insta warp you through the whole map in any possible location. 3. Again, stop seeing them as a mean of getting into someones base. They can do the exact same thing as in SC1, just better.
Lack of use doesnt mean lack of utility. More pros used em actually when it got to hive tech ( jaedong never missed to make em).
Sc1 worm was better than sc2's? You on crack? Please elaborate, cause you pulled that out out of nowhere.
Dont make em if you dont want to, your just not using great tool. On big maps, being able to insta warp YOUR WHOLE ground army to any location is the best tactical advantage you can get. And stop saying someone can snipe your nydus. Its in your base, right next to your rally, and your whole army can pop out of it to deal with the threat.
Let's get behind the fact they will be used offensively, they are not faster than drops since you have to build them first, they are probably about same speed depending on rush distance. SC1 nydus is better for defence because they teleport your army fast, if you have 20 drones at an expo, you are going to get so many killed because they will be lined up trying to get inside.
Yes JD makes them very often, he usually doesn't end up putting it to use because hes not getting harassed, it's a thing you can do to play a safe game ofcourse. And please stop being stupid, insta warp your entire army? Have you even used a Nydus yet? -.-... One Nydus will take like a minute to warp your entire army. I honestly don't think youve used them before since their use is very limited due to their speed. If they doubled the number of units that get through per second then yeah, it would be more viable, but as of now it's WAY to slow to move anything more than 5 drones from a harass.
You really don't understand Nydus's do you? I wasn't talking about sniping a nydus, correct me if I'm wrong but you want it as a network to get around your bases? Pretty much the only point of a harass is to kill workers besides I guess the old 2 immortal harass. The point is, Nydus transports too slow so it has no defensive manuavers.
A time I see that Nydus is viable is you know your opponent is planning to do a big push into one of your expos and hes regrouping his army at your choke, warp some units in while you have time and Flank him from behind with the rest, besides that you might see it in some unconventianal plays, but it doesn't measure up to the SC1 nydus in defensive.
I will test this when beta gets back up but I'm quite sure you are way overexaggerating the slowness of the unloading.
According to liquipedia, a nydus worm unloads 1 unit per .5 seconds and loads 1 unit per .25 seconds. An overlord, on the other hand, unloads 1 unit per second, but can load as many units as it can hold simultaneously. In other words, offensively, a nydus worm is MUCH faster at unloading stuff than a regular drop; drops do NOT unload faster. Check liquipedia yourself if you don't believe me.
If you bring the double amount of overlords you reduce the unloading time in half. You can't really do the same with a nydas worm. Well, you could build two but that probably isn't feasible.
1. Drops unload faster, it's a fact, don't fight it 3. Too many are scouted to be worth it, I don't see how it's possible to not have a vision of your complete expo + main base by the 8 minute mark, sorry but no, drops just have too many advantages over them offensively. 4. My point exactly. PROS use them, how often? I see them maybe 25% of the late game plays in ZvT (10% of all games?), but transport units much faster, harasses are much harder to do in SC2. Try going through SC1 foreignor videos and post them here. I want to see 2 videos of where foreignors use them efficiently.
There is a reason Nydus wasn't used much in SC1, the game was figured out well enough to be used if they were useful enough, and to me it feels SC1 nydus was stronger for defence counter measures. I can go tell you for SC1 go make Dark Templars against a terran and youll win all your games if you're D-... In SC2 you can say the same if you are at that level. I still have yet to see a high level Nydus play in SC2, wouldn't it have atleast been talked about a BIT if it was powerful?
1.Drops dont insta warp you through the whole map in any possible location. 3. Again, stop seeing them as a mean of getting into someones base. They can do the exact same thing as in SC1, just better.
Lack of use doesnt mean lack of utility. More pros used em actually when it got to hive tech ( jaedong never missed to make em).
Sc1 worm was better than sc2's? You on crack? Please elaborate, cause you pulled that out out of nowhere.
Dont make em if you dont want to, your just not using great tool. On big maps, being able to insta warp YOUR WHOLE ground army to any location is the best tactical advantage you can get. And stop saying someone can snipe your nydus. Its in your base, right next to your rally, and your whole army can pop out of it to deal with the threat.
Let's get behind the fact they will be used offensively, they are not faster than drops since you have to build them first, they are probably about same speed depending on rush distance. SC1 nydus is better for defence because they teleport your army fast, if you have 20 drones at an expo, you are going to get so many killed because they will be lined up trying to get inside.
Yes JD makes them very often, he usually doesn't end up putting it to use because hes not getting harassed, it's a thing you can do to play a safe game ofcourse. And please stop being stupid, insta warp your entire army? Have you even used a Nydus yet? -.-... One Nydus will take like a minute to warp your entire army. I honestly don't think youve used them before since their use is very limited due to their speed. If they doubled the number of units that get through per second then yeah, it would be more viable, but as of now it's WAY to slow to move anything more than 5 drones from a harass.
You really don't understand Nydus's do you? I wasn't talking about sniping a nydus, correct me if I'm wrong but you want it as a network to get around your bases? Pretty much the only point of a harass is to kill workers besides I guess the old 2 immortal harass. The point is, Nydus transports too slow so it has no defensive manuavers.
A time I see that Nydus is viable is you know your opponent is planning to do a big push into one of your expos and hes regrouping his army at your choke, warp some units in while you have time and Flank him from behind with the rest, besides that you might see it in some unconventianal plays, but it doesn't measure up to the SC1 nydus in defensive.
I will test this when beta gets back up but I'm quite sure you are way overexaggerating the slowness of the unloading.
According to liquipedia, a nydus worm unloads 1 unit per .5 seconds and loads 1 unit per .25 seconds. An overlord, on the other hand, unloads 1 unit per second, but can load as many units as it can hold simultaneously. In other words, offensively, a nydus worm is MUCH faster at unloading stuff than a regular drop; drops do NOT unload faster. Check liquipedia yourself if you don't believe me.
If you bring the double amount of overlords you reduce the unloading time in half. You can't really do the same with a nydas worm. Well, you could build two but that probably isn't feasible.
That's true, but drops are a lot more vulnerable. If the overlord gets killed you not only lose the supply and the unit, but everything else within it as well. Nydus worms circumvent that issue. Additionally, both offensive drops and nydus worms rely heavily on the element of surprise.
The reason people find the nydus too risky is because they get too greedy with them. They just say "I'MMA GO RIGHT FO' DA HEART, ATTACK DA MAIN", and get their nydus discovered and killed before they can do anything with it. Their next thought is going to also be in caps lock, and it is going to be "WELL GOLLY DIS WORM IS RISKY BIZNESS".
So instead of just sending a risky worm at the heart (heartworms lolololol), let's take a totally different approach to these worms. First off, rather than sending one worm to the main like we're used to, let's 2 worms to two different expansions. He's gonna be hard pressed to find both of them, assuming you placed them in good, sneaky spots. If he didn't find either, you could unload your army from one of them and start causing trouble. He'll have to move his army all the way over, by which time you could retreat back into the worm, and come right back out the other one. You continue to do damage until he gets his army all the way back over there. You could continue always continue the harass, but even if you didn't, look how much damage you've done for 200 minerals 200 gas.
If the guy found one of the worms, you just unload from the other and still do some damage.
If the guy caught on to your trickery and split up his army, he just gave you half an army to kill.
If he scouted both in time, as unlikely as that is, and killed them both in time, as unlikely as that is, then yeah. The nydus didn't work. No strategy always works.
I'm just saying that nydus is faster and safer than overlord drops, especially if you don't get too greedy.
On June 19 2010 13:53 tfmdjeff wrote: The reason people find the nydus too risky is because they get too greedy with them. They just say "I'MMA GO RIGHT FO' DA HEART, ATTACK DA MAIN", and get their nydus discovered and killed before they can do anything with it. Their next thought is going to also be in caps lock, and it is going to be "WELL GOLLY DIS WORM IS RISKY BIZNESS".
So instead of just sending a risky worm at the heart (heartworms lolololol), let's take a totally different approach to these worms. First off, rather than sending one worm to the main like we're used to, let's 2 worms to two different expansions. He's gonna be hard pressed to find both of them, assuming you placed them in good, sneaky spots. If he didn't find either, you could unload your army from one of them and start causing trouble. He'll have to move his army all the way over, by which time you could retreat back into the worm, and come right back out the other one. You continue to do damage until he gets his army all the way back over there. You could continue always continue the harass, but even if you didn't, look how much damage you've done for 200 minerals 200 gas.
If the guy found one of the worms, you just unload from the other and still do some damage.
If the guy caught on to your trickery and split up his army, he just gave you half an army to kill.
If he scouted both in time, as unlikely as that is, and killed them both in time, as unlikely as that is, then yeah. The nydus didn't work. No strategy always works.
I'm just saying that nydus is faster and safer than overlord drops, especially if you don't get too greedy.
Like a chess fork!
One possibility that I think might be overlooked at the moment is building it at the same time as a hatch so you can use it to defend an expansion as it's going up.
A lot of folks are assuming that they are going to be used in a "Attack the main ALL IN" type play. But that is not what the entire discussion is about. There are more ways to use a Nydus worm than placing it in a main.
Nydus Worms can be used: To return a forward army home to defend a counter attack. To be a reinforcement center (rally hatcheries into the nydus networks. Just add [ctrl group for Nydus worm + deploy] into your macro ) To expand at an expo that is far from your main. For instance, expoing at a cross spot on Lost Temple. The nydus can reinforce it, and forces the enemy to have more scouting knowledge as you can now come from more angles. To be able to flank, and not be contained. If a zerg is contained (tanks at the natural anyone?) A nydus worm somewhere out in the map can be used to counter, or flank and surround the contain.
People assume dropping with overlords is better simple because they don't view the worms to be effective because all they use the worms for is a replacement for a full army drop on main. That isn't the best use of them, NO DOUBT.
Their cost is "high" but all the player has to do is squeeze that much "use" out of them. If you can't get the bang for your buck, then don't use it!
Like in the video with TLO, Nydus worms are great counters to cheese proxies. In the video, he used the Nydus to circumvent a contain. They are great to get to the other side of a force that you can't attack head on, and depending on the situation you will have to decide if a Nydus or Drops will work better.
The only issue I have with nydus is that it transports zeglings quite slowly... They should come 2 at a time instead of just the same rate as the other units.
To those arguing which is better nydus or drops? For me I use both of them. I use drops to transport my army at the enemy base... then plop the worm behind them so that my force could easily retreat or be reinforced. Works quite well imo..
Drops are best for Attacking (unless you probably had tons of nydus), But nydus are best for securing an area you already control .. Although they are both used for mobility people should treat them different from each other.
Its easy for terran/prottoss players to exaggerate the power of nydus, however it is true that nydus play has a lot of potential when the game is all figured out. They are definitly ALOT better than the SC1 nydus.
To those arguing which is better nydus or drops? For me I use both of them. I use drops to transport my army at the enemy base... then plop the worm behind them so that my force could easily retreat or be reinforced. Works quite well imo..
Most of the people understand that going for drops OR nydus is expensive and risky, and that is a big reason they opt not to do it. Getting both is like saying "too risky to buy one? buy BOTH!" and it just isn't that viable, not untill waaaay into the game. Spending money on those 2 techs too soon would be in the realm of an all in-ish timing attack that would leave you vulnerable. Too expensive to just throw out that idea (not that it would be bad in the right circumstances).
The type of Nydus play I'm talking about is more of a midgame transition. Its not using Nydus as a win condition, merely a tool to make the strategy that's being employed stronger, it isn't necessarily the strategy itself.
For instance, if one was to try to do the Mass queen roach strategy (zvz for instance) They could use a nydus worm to reinforce, retreat, or micro queens and roaches in and out of during a battle. Plus the queens can transfuse the Nydus worm (while its building too i think!) So plopping one down after the queen + roach moves out a ways would be very helpfull, especially if trying to do it on a large enough map where the other Z might favor Muta + ling and could possibly take out creep highways making reinforcing queen roach really hard. The Nydus would solve that, making the queen roach play still dangerous on larger maps.
No need making tons of defenses, worrying about the counter attack when your queen roach has moved all the way over to the other side of the map. Use that money instead on sending your forces back to defend.
1. Drops unload faster, it's a fact, don't fight it 3. Too many are scouted to be worth it, I don't see how it's possible to not have a vision of your complete expo + main base by the 8 minute mark, sorry but no, drops just have too many advantages over them offensively. 4. My point exactly. PROS use them, how often? I see them maybe 25% of the late game plays in ZvT (10% of all games?), but transport units much faster, harasses are much harder to do in SC2. Try going through SC1 foreignor videos and post them here. I want to see 2 videos of where foreignors use them efficiently.
There is a reason Nydus wasn't used much in SC1, the game was figured out well enough to be used if they were useful enough, and to me it feels SC1 nydus was stronger for defence counter measures. I can go tell you for SC1 go make Dark Templars against a terran and youll win all your games if you're D-... In SC2 you can say the same if you are at that level. I still have yet to see a high level Nydus play in SC2, wouldn't it have atleast been talked about a BIT if it was powerful?
1.Drops dont insta warp you through the whole map in any possible location. 3. Again, stop seeing them as a mean of getting into someones base. They can do the exact same thing as in SC1, just better.
Lack of use doesnt mean lack of utility. More pros used em actually when it got to hive tech ( jaedong never missed to make em).
Sc1 worm was better than sc2's? You on crack? Please elaborate, cause you pulled that out out of nowhere.
Dont make em if you dont want to, your just not using great tool. On big maps, being able to insta warp YOUR WHOLE ground army to any location is the best tactical advantage you can get. And stop saying someone can snipe your nydus. Its in your base, right next to your rally, and your whole army can pop out of it to deal with the threat.
Let's get behind the fact they will be used offensively, they are not faster than drops since you have to build them first, they are probably about same speed depending on rush distance. SC1 nydus is better for defence because they teleport your army fast, if you have 20 drones at an expo, you are going to get so many killed because they will be lined up trying to get inside.
Yes JD makes them very often, he usually doesn't end up putting it to use because hes not getting harassed, it's a thing you can do to play a safe game ofcourse. And please stop being stupid, insta warp your entire army? Have you even used a Nydus yet? -.-... One Nydus will take like a minute to warp your entire army. I honestly don't think youve used them before since their use is very limited due to their speed. If they doubled the number of units that get through per second then yeah, it would be more viable, but as of now it's WAY to slow to move anything more than 5 drones from a harass.
You really don't understand Nydus's do you? I wasn't talking about sniping a nydus, correct me if I'm wrong but you want it as a network to get around your bases? Pretty much the only point of a harass is to kill workers besides I guess the old 2 immortal harass. The point is, Nydus transports too slow so it has no defensive manuavers.
A time I see that Nydus is viable is you know your opponent is planning to do a big push into one of your expos and hes regrouping his army at your choke, warp some units in while you have time and Flank him from behind with the rest, besides that you might see it in some unconventianal plays, but it doesn't measure up to the SC1 nydus in defensive.
First and foremost: dont call me stupid. Reading your posts, I had every reason to call you a noob who comes to forums making stupid ass claims and assumptions he aknowledges he outright failed to use, and therefore his conclusion is " well if Im a failure, its obviously the unit, not me".
Have I used nydus? yes of course, and Ive raped very much with it. You say you wanna nydu's offensively. Ok, fine. Why the fuck are you trying to put em in the middle of his base? By the time you have a good nydus set up, your opponent has at least 1 expo. Theres alot of areas AROUND his base you can use for a nydus. 1 moment your attacking on one side, the other one your at his other expo, then maybe in his base, then your back defending agaisnt his push...you cant do that with overlords, they just dont fill the same role. In fact, a good nydus set up can almost give the same advantage mutas give you, but with a ground army, in terms of map control and harassing.
So about the drones being killed.
Yes, if he commits to come to destroy your expo and you are CAUGHT WITH YOUR PANTS DOWN. All I can say is learn to scout. If its his army, then you should be aware of it and have your army ready to take him on, warped back thanks to your nydus. If its only a few harassing units, then just pop out a few units, wich takes 3 seconds, and youre done. Really, your argument is fail, because it uses more of the fact that the player got surprised than anything else.
Like someone stated, your overly exaggerating the time it takes to unload. It takes some time, but alot less than it wouldve been if you had walked all of your army there.
I dont understand nydus? Yes I do want a network covering my bases. Beauty is that in SC2 is that your nydus network can cover all the freacking map. If your scouting is so deficient that you never see anything coming besides a 200/200 army on your bases, then I pity you, L2P.
And yes, Nydus's are exponentially more efficient as the maps grow larger. For example, its pretty stupid to rely on anything the nydus can bring on steppes of war: youd just be better off moving your army normally, and yes, using drops instead of nydus's offensively.
But on a map like DO ( in terms of size, forget the obvious natural imbalance), you can use all that place to have your army everywhere, and yes, that is incredibly strong.
its a very good sneaky surprise attack and it results very well but a good player will spread supply depots(Terran), creep tumors(Zerg) and Pylons(Protoss) to see the all parts of their base and they will spot the nydus so they can prepare to defend against it or even destroy the nydus before it unburrows and it will be wastefull spend money on a thing that failed.
So... i only use the nydus when the opponent doesn't see his whole base so i allways check that out 1st so it cant counter it before unburrows so that it can be money well spent.
so hide your nydus network well so that your opponent cant prepare for that surprise attack that is no longer a surprise.
I find them best used later in the game when people are on 2 or even 3 bases. They know your army is nowhere near one of their expansions and suddenly you show up where you 'can't be'. I would rather just do drops in someones main than hoping a nydus play works since good players spot it way too easily.
Nydus worm, plus highground behind a natural expansion = completely shut down expansion for cheap! Not only that, but you can put down a creep tumor, and a few crawlers.. and life is good.
Khulas Ravine becomes scary to any of the Z opponents because their naturals are just as abuseable as ours.
Also: A lot of times, when Terran go 1:1:1, after their wall in, they have this horrible tendency to stop all unit production until they have tanks available. If you catch an opponent going 1:1:1, you could fast tech with roaches and lings and be in their base just about as quickly as their first tank is producing or finishing.
In fact, if your opponent walls in, if you scream to nydus tech as fast as possible, you'll probably be able to force split in order to take advantage of their lack of units.
Worms are best used against a turtle player - you can quickly hit their min line or elsewhere in their base where their army is not. (hops that makes sense :S)
just thought i'd mention, every time I go to the sc2 strat forum, in the op it always says "I was watching day9 and.." every fucking time rofl, the dudes a king amongst men.
On June 20 2010 04:13 GenesisX wrote: Worms are best used against a turtle player - you can quickly hit their min line or elsewhere in their base where their army is not. (hops that makes sense :S)
Except a turtling player usually have an army in their base.
Anyone remember the Vanilla SC mission where you get introduced to Nydus Canals?
You have 2 different canals, each one on opposite but key ends of the map, each leading to your main, each next to a hatch.
What about worm play like that? Use them near key points on the map, such as high yeilds, choke points, out-of-the-way areas that are hard to reach, or Towers, build a hatch near them, and use them to fast transit between each other, allowing you to control these key areas.
On June 20 2010 05:45 Pads wrote: just thought i'd mention, every time I go to the sc2 strat forum, in the op it always says "I was watching day9 and.." every fucking time rofl, the dudes a king amongst men.
What are you saying exactly? A lot of people can agree and come to an understanding on the topics Sean talks about. It is a good reference point.
you don't necessarily need to put the nydus worm down in your opponent's base. you can place a nydus worm in the same place a protoss player would place a forward pylon for warpgate units. You can rally your hatcheries to the nydus network or a nydus worm and use that to get quick reinforcements. you do need to occasionally go and hit unload on your nydus worm though. and you can rally from the nydus worm as well
also, a good time to throw down a nydus worm against a mech terran might be when he's moving his tanks/thors out towards you. you could potentially hop in with your units and do a lot of damage to his lightly defended/undefended base(s) and then nydus back in time to defend your bases.
i used them a lot when i first got my beta key and it actually worked out quite well. it's just that, speaking as a pretty bad player, it wouldn't do me much good to only get wins with the nydus worm. so basically i decided to get good at the bulk of the game and come back to nydus worms later when i'm not such a noob.
i've had it used on me by another zerg though, and i have this to say about it - if you don't catch it, it can fuck you up fast. and even if you do catch it, it's extremely stressful. i felt like i had to run around constantly bopping these things down before they spilled an army into my base and made me paranoid in general. i had to focus on a lot more, so if the other zerg had used the later worms as a diversion he could've easily pulled a different strategy off while my attention was focused elsewhere...
and yeah like others have said, it's a very flexible tool, doesn't just have to be for doomdrops, and i've seen a lot of games where i was thinking 'this guy should use a worm like a forward pylon'
On June 20 2010 05:45 Pads wrote: just thought i'd mention, every time I go to the sc2 strat forum, in the op it always says "I was watching day9 and.." every fucking time rofl, the dudes a king amongst men.
What are you saying exactly? A lot of people can agree and come to an understanding on the topics Sean talks about. It is a good reference point.
i didn't say it was a bad thing, infact completly the opposite (hence the 'he's a king amongst men'), i just found it interesting how many people DO refer to him when talking sc2 strategy, I see it in streams all the time too.
I use nyduses to control the map more than backdoor a base, base backdoor is a one trick pony, because if it fails, they protect from it ever happening again. thats why you got to keep popping nyduses everywhere not only for even faster creep spread (keep a queen in your network for creep tumors only) but for rapid movement and attacks from many angles, and to take riskier expansions.
It depends heavily on the units you use. Zergling / mutalisk doesn't need it, queens and roaches love it, banelings and ultras don't need it but can benefit from it just for the DPS per second transferred in backdoor attacks. Note that the one set of units that really shine with them are very heavy on the minerals and fairly food-dense for fast transit of significant power.
It depends heavily on the map. Big maps obviously increase the value of the network, but a Nydus network can exploit all sorts of little map quirks. Can you wall off a mid-map choke and use the network to jump past? Are there little nooks and crannies near the enemy base (or in it) where you can hide a close worm? Are there two or three places where you can assault your enemy at the same time?
It depends heavily on how much you use it. When you build your first building, it's totally useless. One route you can take is nearly useless except for getting lucky with a backdoor. But get up a second or third network, and you can attack at multiple points at once. Set up enough worms in your base, and you can basically keep your non-zergling army in the network while "at rest" to show up wherever you want.
It depends heavily on your opponent. The more mobile your opponent is, the less effective it is on offense, and the more likely you are to have to worry about surprise attacks and the speed of the network on defense. At the other end of the spectrum are siege tanks and static defenses that can no longer cover just a forward choke or two, but every path to your base from untaken expansions or open ground.
All of these dependencies are synergistic -- a roach / queen army on a large map will be terrifying with a lot of Nydus networks and lots of worms (and will have the gas to pay for them). They'd be a stupid addition to your fast baneling bust on Steppes of War.
On June 21 2010 10:36 Sylph wrote: Thing is, if the opponent hits you RIGHT when your troops are in-transit via nydus, you're dead.
More specifically, a Banshee harass would shut down the game for you right there.
And all it takes to prevent nydus is gain vision throughout your base, which isn't that hard. Turrets, creep tumors, structures, etc.
A player would have to be really... bad... to not notice a nydus in their base.
That's a stupid sentiment. "If he hits you when your troops are in transit" applies to pretty much every army in the game. I'd say proper Nydus placement gives you a more mobile army, meaning you won't be caught out of position nearly as easily.
Also, simply having vision in your base doesn't prevent the Nydus worm from popping up. It takes only twenty game seconds to build and it has a reasonable amount of health. If you get one up inside a Terran's base when he's, say, responding to your front door attack, he'll have a lot of trouble recovering. Short of a game-winning Nydus in the back of your opponent's base, they can be used to faster reinforce an army the way Protoss players tend to leave proxy pylons everywhere for their warp gates, and it makes defending your numerous expansions a lot easier.
Also, simply having vision in your base doesn't prevent the Nydus worm from popping up. It takes only twenty game seconds to build and it has a reasonable amount of health
This really isn't true, you have to not be paying attention for a nydus play to work if they have vision on it. It takes time to spit out the entire army and if you get even a few units there you can completely shut the thing down very easily.
Nydus worm is much better used outside of someones base or to attack a base when they fail to build properly than it is to take out someones base with vision. If you build your base properly they are borderline useless against your main base.
Oh, and the best part about a heavy Nydus build is that if you start out by Nydusing your base, your opponent will either become used to the sound of a Nydus bursting or spend a whole lot of time checking out the bitty corners of their base. When you do come for him, the panic on the sound will be lessened, and you'll have that bit more time to get your army out.
On June 21 2010 12:11 TheAngelofDeath wrote: Just saying...but I find overlord drops much more effective than nydus. Less of an investment, and harder to stop IMO.
The real clincher on why I use Nydus instead is really the ability to load your units back from where they came and pop them out in your base, this quick two-way transportation is just so useful imo.
I dont know if someone else has said this (didnt read all comments) , but i think if youre on a map with a small base ramp , you could use nydus worm as a last minute defense to keep enemies at bay. Say you just macrod up a ton of units in your main base , and your enemy is quickly advancing to your base , you could , in theory , pop up a nydus to block the ramp and then pop your army out. It may not be super effective , but it beats them getting up your ramp and screwing up your workers when you could've blocked them. All of this is in Theory of course (im not a very experienced player). (Also , sorry to post in an old-ish thread)
I dont know if someone else has said this (didnt read all comments) , but i think if youre on a map with a small base ramp , you could use nydus worm as a last minute defense to keep enemies at bay. Say you just macrod up a ton of units in your main base , and your enemy is quickly advancing to your base , you could , in theory , pop up a nydus to block the ramp and then pop your army out. It may not be super effective , but it beats them getting up your ramp and screwing up your workers when you could've blocked them. All of this is in Theory of course (im not a very experienced player). (Also , sorry to post in an old-ish thread)
Welcome to TL Mr. Oddguy Sir!
Nice idea but i guess this isn't really viable because the worm dies so terribly fast... I mean REALLY fast! Even against workers >.<
IMO...it's a great harass unit. Metalopolis spawing it behind the smoke or blistering sands by back door ent. Would allow for great harassment. Or a mobility factor being able to teleport from expo to expo. I think once we see more gameplay out of SC2 more of the little things will start to show up. Just takes time for people to understand unit compositions and overall stratagy.
Sorry to bump a old thread, but didn't want to start a new thread just for a question.
It seems to me that everyone who uses nydus worms use it to dry to bust the main/spawn it in the enemy base. Have people used nydus worms like protos players use proxy pylons? Instead of using a nydus worm as a surprise tactic you could spawn it somewhere near your attack front and have reinforces join quicker to the attack(or add more units to your forces before you attack).
I know it's more expensive than warp tech + pylons, but haven't really seen this used in games(Maybe just a bad idea). Mainly it could be useful if you aren't very proactive with spreading creep or the maps are too large to spread creep very quickly. And you could also spread creep closer to the enemy base easier from the nydus worm.
For everyone claiming that the worm is too slow in unloading, try for once try using two. The difference is more than a factor two i'd say. Your opponent will have more trouble shutting two spawning worms down and in case you do get them out both, your army will be unloaded REALLY fast. Especially later in the game when your army is large and you have plenty resources. Spawning two different locations at the same time makes it almost impossible for your opponent to react, as seen in the vid.
Furthermore, an OL drop tends to be sacrifical for the units. If I drop 2-3 OLs of hydras in an enemy base, it's usually a matter of winning the game there or doing so much damage to his eco/base that the sacrifice is worth the loss of 8-12 hydras. Now suppose you save just TWO hydras using a NW, you already paid for the worm. And in most cases you can get away with a lot more units..
Only the cost is so high... while a bad comparison, warpgate tech is just 50/50 and 100 minerals per pylon. Maybe a bonus for casting the worm in creep would be nice. Like reduced cost (50/50) or faster building speed. This would also allow for great synergy with the OL, which can drop creep in the enemy base and provide some cover by dropping some hydras to defend the worm.
What the video in this topic shows nicely is that you don't have to build worms in the opponents mineral line per se. I really like the worm south of his expo.. I'll be trying out some more worm strats now..
On July 05 2010 11:55 Oddguy wrote: I dont know if someone else has said this (didnt read all comments) , but i think if youre on a map with a small base ramp , you could use nydus worm as a last minute defense to keep enemies at bay. Say you just macrod up a ton of units in your main base , and your enemy is quickly advancing to your base , you could , in theory , pop up a nydus to block the ramp and then pop your army out. It may not be super effective , but it beats them getting up your ramp and screwing up your workers when you could've blocked them. All of this is in Theory of course (im not a very experienced player). (Also , sorry to post in an old-ish thread)
400 gas for a 200hp wall? no thanks. I think i'll just sit in the corner and cry that protoss get that tier 1 and for free.
Nydus is much better than drop because you can get a nydus much faster, during the beta i had a nydus at the 5:15 minute mark unloading zerglings and stuff into the terrans base.
I rarely use nydus to transport my troops. Instead what I do is that I spawn a random nydus worm near his base for a small diversion. While he's sending his forces to destroy the worm I make my units attack his wall (if he has made any), once I think i've donde enough damage I retreat, I repeat this a couple of times with empty nydus worms. Finally I make one last nydus (normally he would have had placed a random pylon or supply depot to scout it, so it doesn't work most of the time) this one loaded with zerglings/hydra or roaches to do damage, he will normally take a little longer to realize what's going on since the couple of nydus before were empty, while he's looking at his base I attack him with a bigger force at his front door.
I'm not sure if this works in higher lvls but sure as hell it works against gold/silver players who make the mistake of not putting turrets/supply depots/pylons around their base.
On August 17 2010 02:28 WillKill wrote: Worms are so great. If your opponent gets in a position where he cant kill it then there's no hope for him
a worm at 50% completetion can be killed by 5 workers b4 it pops/poops out too much units. give me one example of where the opponenent can't get to your worm and kill it b4 it drops meaning ful amount of units.
Hell, i've been baited into nydus'ing. I played some guy back in Plat, he scouted my nydus, and insted of killing it, he just positioned his army to kill my units as they pop out. I lost the worm + a few hydra roaches. That made me stop using them offensively. They're great in multiplayer though.