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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 23 2010 11:28 beetlelisk wrote: What if opponent opens with or masses units Phoenixes counter? You just gg? Turtle and then gg? Phoenix counters uh.. 1 unit, the muta, by design. And you can take care of those without it (though i'll admit i use phoenix on a regular basis v. Zerg). Hence why most people avoid the stargate. | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
On April 23 2010 12:06 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: Phoenix counters uh.. 1 unit, the muta, by design. And you can take care of those without it (though i'll admit i use phoenix on a regular basis v. Zerg). Hence why most people avoid the stargate. I was trying to be a little sarcastic. What about Banshees though? and it doesn't have to be rush but transitioning from Marauders also? | ||
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peckham33
United States267 Posts
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roemy
Germany432 Posts
needs more than one lift to kill it with 3 phoenixes though. any lifted&killed worker is a bonus. | ||
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Karas
United States230 Posts
Bottom line, phoenix beat vikings in near equal numbers. What makes the viking so good is its terrific range makes it a great support vessel, because it can hover over marines and get their protection while still shooting down enemy ships. And the ability to transfer the viking is generally superior to the phoenix's grav beam. | ||
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Straife
United States36 Posts
I make a narrow choke on ramp 1-zealot wide 12-Gate Assimilator 16-Zealot Pylon Assimilator Forge/Cybernetics Core Cannon Stargate (hidden away from overlord in my base somewhere) Stargate Then I just chrono boost 4 phoenixes, all while slowly building up a small zealot count with extra minerals. Once I have 4 phoenixes I move to zerg's base go straight for the queen and Overlords. I build maybe 1-2 more phoenixes tops, and then plop down 2 robo-bays and switch to Collossi, and chrono boost the thermal lance. It usually times well to where my collossi come out when the zerg player has finally recovered enough to get hydralisks out. The only thing that has defeated this build so far was a big roach push at my door. They almost always switch to hydras, and you still have your phoenixes around if they tech-switch again to mutas to counter your collossi. ____ Another really really fun thing I did was 2-gate a zerg player. I took out his expo, but he held off the rest of the rush. I tech switched to double-stargate phoenixes. I did a good little timing attack with 7+ zealots and about 4 phoenixes to re-kill the queens. The guy congratulated me for being legitimately creative. | ||
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Warpzit
Denmark28 Posts
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
When I was focus-firing with the Mutas, I was following the path of whichever one was getting the bounces. 5 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 5 Mutas live (1 barely) 6 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield) 7 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 6 Phoenixes live, with a couple at half health. 5 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 6 Mutas live, with a couple at half health 6 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield) 7 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 3 Phoenixes live, with one at half health. 5 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 4 Mutas live 6 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield) 7 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 4 Phoenixes live, with one at half health Seems like there isn't a MASSIVE difference in Phoenix focus-fire, until you hit the magic number of 7 Phoenixes, where they instagib Mutalisks in the first couple of volleys. With less of them focus-firing it seemed like an absolute shit-load of shots were being wasted, like it was hurting more than it was helping. Also, that having just ONE more Phoenix over the 1:2 ratio makes an absolutely godamned enormous difference. Food for thought. | ||
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virusak
Czech Republic344 Posts
On April 24 2010 14:59 Bibdy wrote: Did some testing with the Map Editor with Phoenixes vs Mutas and the numbers are rather interesting. Unfortunately I couldn't get FF on both sides, since I'm not sure how to give the computer orders at the moment. When I was focus-firing with the Mutas, I was following the path of whichever one was getting the bounces. 5 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 5 Mutas live (1 barely) 6 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield) 7 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 6 Phoenixes live, with a couple at half health. 5 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 6 Mutas live, with a couple at half health 6 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield) 7 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 3 Phoenixes live, with one at half health. 5 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 4 Mutas live 6 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield) 7 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 4 Phoenixes live, with one at half health Seems like there isn't a MASSIVE difference in Phoenix focus-fire, until you hit the magic number of 7 Phoenixes, where they instagib Mutalisks in the first couple of volleys. With less of them focus-firing it seemed like an absolute shit-load of shots were being wasted, like it was hurting more than it was helping. Also, that having just ONE more Phoenix over the 1:2 ratio makes an absolutely godamned enormous difference. Food for thought. nice, but in game, warping in 7 phoenixes takes a huuuge amount of time, while Z can just pop up so many of them at once I used phoenixes in a 2v2 matchup where my tp was Z, so I just used graviton beam if his mutas were threatened by any ground units (besides thors) | ||
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Triik
Canada51 Posts
Probably not that useful but would be interesting to find out. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On April 24 2010 15:33 virusak wrote: nice, but in game, warping in 7 phoenixes takes a huuuge amount of time, while Z can just pop up so many of them at once I used phoenixes in a 2v2 matchup where my tp was Z, so I just used graviton beam if his mutas were threatened by any ground units (besides thors) Indeed. That's why if you're going to get Phoenixes, you usually have to commit to a double-Stargate and pump them full of Chrono Boosts, slowly reach that 3:5 ratio, then finally charge the Phoenixes head-first at the guy, only to end up with 1 Phoenix left. Such a horrible, horrible unit. | ||
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phexac
United States186 Posts
On April 20 2010 02:42 Chill wrote: I think a few phoenixes are really nice to isolate his special support units (tanks, immortals). If your opponent is using basic units (mm or gateway units) your phoenixes are going to be useless. Unfortunately I usually feel like I just need to gamble and hope he plays into my hands. Even if he goes gateway units, you can still pick up and snipe them. 3 phoenixes will rape occasional zeal or sentry. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 24 2010 15:35 Triik wrote: Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried lifting up an infestor when it is neural parasiting something? Does it break the neural parasite? Probably not that useful but would be interesting to find out. I've lifted infestors to pre-empt parasite, but i haven't noticed if it broke the ability (i always seem to pick them up before they cast it). | ||
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Taco-Mental
United States84 Posts
On April 24 2010 15:33 virusak wrote: nice, but in game, warping in 7 phoenixes takes a huuuge amount of time, while Z can just pop up so many of them at once I used phoenixes in a 2v2 matchup where my tp was Z, so I just used graviton beam if his mutas were threatened by any ground units (besides thors) Yeah but if you focus on getting phoenix's as part of your build you have 4-5 phoenixes before they get any mutas. The reason a build like 2 gate & 2 stargate works very well is that you can produce phoenix's quite well. The nice part is you have a decent ground force supported by super fast phoenix. Your initial attack will get a queen or two, tons of overlords etc. The phoenix in large numbers is actually very nice vs roaches before he has hydras. On the initial transition zerg makes to hydra the phoenix is still powerful. With 5 phoenix 1 lift and the other 4 will one shot a hydra. So in before he gets a large # of hydra you can get in and focus them out of his army. Usually I ignore workers and save my lifts for killing off his roaches. Once i've used up my energy getting his roaches i push my ground force in facing much more favorable odds. I had a lot more issues when I went solo stargate though so if using phoenix's don't be shy about it and commit. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 24 2010 18:20 Taco-Mental wrote: I had a lot more issues when I went solo stargate though so if using phoenix's don't be shy about it and commit. Really? I've found it a lot easier to just get 4 from one gate -> harass, and immidiately tech swap to counter hydras (usually colossus). Second stargate seems pretty wasteful. I drop a second if he has mutas building, or has decided not to get hydras (very rare though). | ||
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virusak
Czech Republic344 Posts
On April 24 2010 18:59 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: Really? I've found it a lot easier to just get 4 from one gate -> harass, and immidiately tech swap to counter hydras (usually colossus). Second stargate seems pretty wasteful. I drop a second if he has mutas building, or has decided not to get hydras (very rare though). wow, thats quite a ,long swicht, from 1sg to robo facility and bay | ||
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Gigaudas
Sweden1213 Posts
On April 24 2010 15:35 Triik wrote: Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried lifting up an infestor when it is neural parasiting something? Does it break the neural parasite? Probably not that useful but would be interesting to find out. I want to know this as well. Will test it in the galaxy editor when I get home but would love it if someone answered it now  Pretty sure it does break neural parasite. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
He was spamming Marauders from 4 Tech Labbed Rax, I made Immortals to supplement my Gateway collection. He got a Ghost to counter that, I got HTs to counter that. I got Void Rays since he had like no Marines, he got a handful of Marines and some Vikings. When the big fight started, he got one EMP off before I feedbacked both of his Ghosts, which only hit a small number of my Stalkers, Immortals and Zealots. After that my Psi Storms ripped the Vikings and Marines to shreds long before they could kill the Void Rays. He was now completely defenseless against my Void Rays and even though he pretty much ripped the bulk of my ground army a new one and ended up with a gigantic wad of incredibly low-health stimmed Marauders, my Void Rays mopped up easily and then quickly flew to his base, and dealt a shitload of damage, while he was desperately trying to spam Marines out of his Tech-Labbed Rax to counter it. Meanwhile I just rebuilt my Gateway and Immortal army and steamrolled in. | ||
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puckthecat
United States18 Posts
1. Get a Stargate early so that you have a good start if Mutas arrive. This is workable because, if Mutalisks aren't built, Corsairs can be used for scouting and to harass Overlords. 2. If Mutas are the tech of choice, bring your Corsairs back to camp over your Nexus and use them in combination with 2-3 cannons per base and a ground army (Archons) to minimize damage from the harass. 3. Use extra minerals that aren't required for Cannons to build up a ground army of Zealots. 4. Once you have a good sized ground army including Zealots and GtA units, push out and win. Now, we don't have the super-strong BW Archon anymore in SC2, but we do have Sentry, which is a similarly gas-heavy counter unit to Mutas. It seems to me that if Phoenix is going to be used as a counter to Mutalisk it will be used along the lines I outline above. People who are expecting to be able to start their Stargate(s) after Mutalisks appear, pump only Phoenixes to counter the Mutalisks, and then counterattack using the Phoenixes as a primary offensive unit are never going to get anywhere, would be my guess. | ||
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