EPTProper Phoenix Use - Page 6
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
I honestly really like the phoenix build, but I don't think it's the optimal build in every match-up even though Nony makes it look like it is  Against Zerg phoenixes are just good all-around since you have the mobility to clamp down on their fast expands while making them pay for undefended overlords. But against Protoss I feel like a few cannons in the mineral line can control phoenix harass while the Protoss goes for colossi and a (blink) stalker heavy army (and colossi are not taken down *that* fast by phoenixes). A well-executed 2-gate might also make it very hard to defend while you're teching up.Haven't made up my mind about Terran, yet. | ||
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Weedman
United States65 Posts
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cartoon]x
United States606 Posts
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Aurdon
United States2007 Posts
http://www.youtube.com/user/huskystarcraft?blend=1&ob=4#p/u/1/scCnY2g1TTg + Show Spoiler + Nony's use of Phoenix in the HDH tournament was awesome. He basically put on a clinic on how to use them. Moonglade probably should have countered with hydras a little sooner, but Nony obviously expected this and teched up to Colossus as a followup. | ||
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shiftY803
200 Posts
Against T, I find them ridiculously imba if the terran goes marauders and tanks. The phoenix effectively render the tanks useless. However, I have alot of trouble when he goes MM&G and pushes out as soon as the first couple ghosts show up. My ground army if far inferior at this point, therefore I'm forced to use the phoenix to attempt to even things out. NonY makes it look so easy, but I haven't had much luck myself. If I miss levitating a ghost, it is pretty much GG. One EMP and my already weak ground army is basically dead. On the other hand, I am so sick of going robo every time and plan to just keep banging away at the phoenix build. It's beta after all. Edit: Now that I think about it, I don't think I've seen a NonY game where the terran makes a timing push with ghosts. The couple terran games I saw that he didn't cheese, they went either MMM or MM with tanks - no ghosts. | ||
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Paladia
802 Posts
On April 26 2010 12:31 itzbrandnew wrote: Phoenix rush will lose vs any kind of fast roaches. They do almost no damage to them, it takes 4 phoenix two years just to kill one roach, while your entire base is getting destroyed.I find a straight phoenix rush on 4 phoenix dominates P and Z. I'll work on getting some replays up, I've only been doing placement matches (against golds/one plat) but it seems to really screw with them seeing phoenix lift their drones and snipe them as fast as they do (while catching ovies on the way). | ||
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puckthecat
United States18 Posts
Phoenix rush will lose vs any kind of fast roaches. Although, if you have up a Stargate you can boost out a Void Ray in pretty short order. If you have any kind of advance warning of a fast Roach attack, you should be able to hold it off with a small base defense force + Void Ray. Now, if they have Hydralisks as well as Roaches, that's a different story. But that requires Lair tech and should come a good bit later than a pure fast Roach attack. | ||
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shiftY803
200 Posts
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fulmetljaket
482 Posts
On April 26 2010 23:05 shiftY803 wrote: Why are we worrying about fast roaches vs. phoenix anyway? If you scout it, nobody is forcing you to build a stargate... well even then, a few well placed cannons + a few immos can take quite a bit of roaches | ||
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HoroBoro
United States91 Posts
Phoenix works great against mech and banshee rush too. Can scout those facs/starports, lift tanks vs mech and air vs banshees is always win. If they go all air, just warp a few stalkers and you're set vs heavy terran air. Gas intensive, but I find it hard to use up all that gas with 2 assimilator running. There's not too many early game harass options with toss - it would be great if this works. Gonna give it a try and see what happens :D | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 26 2010 23:05 shiftY803 wrote: Why are we worrying about fast roaches vs. phoenix anyway? If you scout it, nobody is forcing you to build a stargate... That's a tough thing to accurately scout though. More often than not you'll be making an educated guess wether or not the zerg is going fast roaches from his FE, speedling into muta (best for the phoenix open), or slow macro roach hydra. Most Z keep 4-8 lings either at the P base to keep scout probes from coming out, or (more often) near to their own ramp to disallow probes in their base once they leave. Of-course hallucination scout will be the mandatory thing to check, but getting that after warpgates means it's coming out just a bit too late to see fast roach before you drop stargates. In Nony v. Moonglade, moon didn't commit at all to the early game in terms of agression, he spent a TON of resources on spine crawlers, and he went even further throwing down his third expo quite early. Combined with the really non-existent ovie fly-by scouting on his main, moon really gave Nony the best possible open to hit with two stargate phoenix. I think the stargate open will probably become default for PvZ, given it's one of the best ways to really regain a measure of map control and chip away at Z's early-mid game strength. That being said, we'll have to see a bit of flexibility, possibly faster forge play, to answer the early roach agression and get the vita first expansion off (that allows for phoenix production and a tech swap to something that answers Z's imminent switch to hydras. | ||
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shiftY803
200 Posts
I'll have to experiment more and see how things go for me. I've been doing the two-gate/one-stargate builds myself. Probably alot safer if they decide to hit you with roaches. | ||
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Smoyf
United States44 Posts
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On April 26 2010 23:56 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: That's a tough thing to accurately scout though. More often than not you'll be making an educated guess wether or not the zerg is going fast roaches from his FE, speedling into muta (best for the phoenix open), or slow macro roach hydra. Most Z keep 4-8 lings either at the P base to keep scout probes from coming out, or (more often) near to their own ramp to disallow probes in their base once they leave. Of-course hallucination scout will be the mandatory thing to check, but getting that after warpgates means it's coming out just a bit too late to see fast roach before you drop stargates. In Nony v. Moonglade, moon didn't commit at all to the early game in terms of agression, he spent a TON of resources on spine crawlers, and he went even further throwing down his third expo quite early. Combined with the really non-existent ovie fly-by scouting on his main, moon really gave Nony the best possible open to hit with two stargate phoenix. I think the stargate open will probably become default for PvZ, given it's one of the best ways to really regain a measure of map control and chip away at Z's early-mid game strength. That being said, we'll have to see a bit of flexibility, possibly faster forge play, to answer the early roach agression and get the vita first expansion off (that allows for phoenix production and a tech swap to something that answers Z's imminent switch to hydras. Thing is, Nony didn't even go phoenixes the second game vs. Moonglade. He just straight up busted Moonglade's spine crawler defense with (2?) warp gates. I don't think he went mass phoenixes first game until he scouted the Spire, so his build is obviously flexible enough to deal with both early aggression and turtle transition to Mutas (which gives many Protoss a lot of trouble). I think if Nony scouted Moonglade pumping roaches, he would've put down a robo asap and added a gateway or two. Or maybe a forge & some cannons. Either way, getting a few phoenixes isn't bad against roach openings either so long as you can defend your choke/ramp. With mass roaches the Zerg won't have the AA necessary to prevent phoenixes from wrecking havoc in his base and he'll be forced to either all-in or quickly tech up to hydras. This is the situation the Protoss wants to be in as it allows him to dictate how the game plays out - ie, if the Zerg all-ins, the Protoss just has to hold it off at his choke, and if the Zerg techs to hydras, the Protoss has the luxury to tech to Colossi without worrying about mutas. Corrupters will pose a huge threat to phoenixes late-game, though, so I expect that blink stalkers or void rays are still necessary to counter Brood Lords. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On April 26 2010 23:05 shiftY803 wrote: Why are we worrying about fast roaches vs. phoenix anyway? If you scout it, nobody is forcing you to build a stargate... Ehh. In my experience, trying to send suicidal Probes into the Zerg's base, or getting a super-fast Observer in there to find out what's up, I usually spot the Roach Warren anywhere from 50-80% completion (sometimes 100%). At which point I thank all available deitys that day that I picked the right tech path. If it was completed before I saw it, I could Chrono an Immortal and barely hold it back, but that was before the last patch. Now its a lot more scary. Then there's the big fat jerks who realise you spotted their partially completed Roach Warren with your Probe, cancel it and get Banelings or something. Meanies. I'll always prefer a super-fast observer because of that. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On April 26 2010 23:05 shiftY803 wrote: Why are we worrying about fast roaches vs. phoenix anyway? If you scout it, nobody is forcing you to build a stargate... Well, he was talking about a phoenix *rush*, where presumably you try to get them out as soon as possible. If you watch Nony's streams, you'll note that he doesn't play the phoenix strategy every game. Indeed, it gets hard-countered by mass blink stalkers in the mirror match so you *have* to know if your opponent is going mass stalkers and respond appropriately. For this reason, among others, I don't think you should focus too heavily on rushing phoenixes out, and I don't think the take-home point is that phoenixes > all. | ||
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DikFore
United States33 Posts
On April 20 2010 17:20 NB wrote: till now i am trying to avoid the use of phoenix since i think of it as reaver corsair in BW, require too much apm and would be roll over if the enemy has a soild ground force. what i am thinking is that this unit might give us a suprise in PvP in the close future since toss anti air is not that great  Called it...nice. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
On April 27 2010 01:34 Bibdy wrote: Ehh. In my experience, trying to send suicidal Probes into the Zerg's base, or getting a super-fast Observer in there to find out what's up, I usually spot the Roach Warren anywhere from 50-80% completion (sometimes 100%). At which point I thank all available deitys that day that I picked the right tech path. If it was completed before I saw it, I could Chrono an Immortal and barely hold it back, but that was before the last patch. Now its a lot more scary. Then there's the big fat jerks who realise you spotted their partially completed Roach Warren with your Probe, cancel it and get Banelings or something. Meanies. I'll always prefer a super-fast observer because of that. Or you can just know gas timings for roaches. But suicidal probes should work or your scouting probe can usually stay alive to get a glimpse of the den. However, you still do not know if he's massing, so just run a probe up and see how many roaches shoot at him. However, with FF and the gravitation, you can pick off a large amount of the roaches before the real fight, and you can do some economic damage. I think it still puts you ahead, he will lose overlords, and he will be in the dark scouting-wise. Even if he transitions to hydras, you should be teching, expanding, and killing overlords. It puts you in a pretty good position. | ||
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