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So instead of complaining about balance, I've decided to try to "learn the Phoenix" and I've done ok. Not too good, but decent. Most of what I've learned is from VODs I've seen (especially one of Inka) and personal experimentation.
What I've found is this:
A lot of the time phoenixes are great at forcing a tech switch. If I do some kind of void ray build and I see mutas, I found that phoenixes are a good follow-up. However, you have to be already transitioning before you see the hydra den going down. So it's usually 2 void rays, into about 3 phoenixes while throwing down gateways, and then into stalker/collosus or some other mid game to kill hydras. It's also fun to just have those 3 phoenixes flying around to be annoying and kill overlords even though they do not have much of a use by that point.
The other use of the phoenix that I've attempted was an early starport to get one phoenix to scout and snipe some overlords. What this ended up doing was also forcing the Zerg not to go mutas (which I hate dealing with). However, since I didn't have a robo at all I was likely just to get rolled by roaches.
So, what I'm wondering is what everyone else has found with their experimentation with the phoenix. As you can kind of imply from what I've written above, it seems to me to be only viable as a transition away from void rays. However, I could be wrong so I'd like to see what others have found.
Edits
New developments have happened lately thanks to Nony. Here is a link to a replay pack of Nony using phoenixes to completely own:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=121441
These are analyzed on Day9 Daily #108.
Also, here is a link to Nony using phoenixes in PvZ:
http://www.youtube.com/user/HuskyStarcraft#p/u/2/scCnY2g1TTg
Summary: Phoenixes have a lot more potential than we thought before.
If anyone has any replays of phoenixes used well, post them in the form and I will put them on the OP!
Mod Edit: Great thread!
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The part about fast phoenix for scouting/sniping overlords, and forcing the zerg to not go mutas seems pretty nice. As a protoss, I hate dealing with the highly mobile mutas, definitely gonna try that one.
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I am not in the beta, but i think phoenixes could be good if you take them with your ground army to snipe medivacs, but also for their gravity blast thing.
They could easily snipe ghosts, queens, sentries and other annoying units.
Never saw them used like that...
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Finally someone who comes with a solid suggestion on how to use the phoenix. finally!
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What I am doing quite often is getting an early starport while keeping an eye on the enemy (if he puts down a roach warren then you have to get a cannon at the entrance (doesnt work on maps like scrap station though where you dont have a proper choke.
also get like 2 sentries for without forcefield the defense wont work.
i produce 2 phoenix (best chrono boost them) and start producing a third one (as two phoenixes cant kill a queen without full energy). so i attack the zerg when 2 phoenix are ready (third in production). start attacking the queen (2 times putting her in the air until both phoenixes energy is used up then the third phoenix arrives and i can kill the queen.
after that i got a short timespan where i can snipe overlords before his hydras come out (a job 3 phoenix do pretty well)
i tend to keep these phoenixes alive (you can repeat the queen sniping also later in game when hes havin few forces back in his main) or kill single workers (which is pretty micro intense and not that effective IMO) - but using them to scout and cripple his scouting already helps alot.
i dont think it makes sense to produce more phoenixes until lategame when I need them again against broodlords because now hell be going hydralisks and you gotta hurry to get storm or collossus out.
best regards
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Calgary25990 Posts
I think a few phoenixes are really nice to isolate his special support units (tanks, immortals). If your opponent is using basic units (mm or gateway units) your phoenixes are going to be useless. Unfortunately I usually feel like I just need to gamble and hope he plays into my hands.
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Yeah I've started using phoenix in standard pvz games. In each of my pvz games, I play as if they're going to speedling/baneling all-in (so I get 2 gates pumping units to defend while getting a stargate up when I can), and if they do, my phoenixes can punish them pretty bad. If they're doing some type of roach rush, I can use the gravitron beam to help defend. If they're going lair tech, most zergs react by going hydras so I typically don't have to worry about a muta rush. Through all this I can usually safely expand with my ground army and cannons.
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I have done phoenix as a response to mutas a few times now and it has seemed to work well enough. When I see double gas I typically will transition into double stargate and pump about 4 phnx as soon as possible. It shut down the initial 3-6 mutas easy and seems to deter further muta development.
Stoping his OL scouting/creep pooping is just too good to pass up.
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On April 20 2010 02:32 Everyday wrote:
I am not in the beta, but i think phoenixes could be good if you take them with your ground army to snipe medivacs, but also for their gravity blast thing.
They could easily snipe ghosts, queens, sentries and other annoying units.
Never saw them used like that...
I tried that a couple times and my phoenixes just died way too fast. A few marines can take them down quick enough that the medivacs do not even budge. For sniping anything I've found blink to be more useful. However, I may just be a micro noob and someone might be able to prove me wrong.
Likewise, I haven't found the gravity blast that useful because most of the armies (MMM, mass roach/hydra) just have too many units for lifting up 4/5 to do anything. However, I did find something annoying to exploit...
If you lift up an SCV who is building something (ie, a command center at an expansion) and you lift it up and immediately cancel and fly away, the SCV will not continue building the building. I've only done it a few times to mess with people and it really does throw people off. I mean, they have an SCV there... why isn't my command center done yet? Oh well, I'll just wait longer. Oh, he's not building, I guess I forgot to put him on or something? *It took one guy 3 times to see that my phoenix just quickly flew in there and lifted then immediately flew away*. It's more of a gimmick but it's pretty funny. That's about the best use of the gravity spell I've had though.
On April 20 2010 02:41 snace wrote:
What I am doing quite often is getting an early starport while keeping an eye on the enemy (if he puts down a roach warren then you have to get a cannon at the entrance (doesnt work on maps like scrap station though where you dont have a proper choke.
also get like 2 sentries for without forcefield the defense wont work.
i produce 2 phoenix (best chrono boost them) and start producing a third one (as two phoenixes cant kill a queen without full energy). so i attack the zerg when 2 phoenix are ready (third in production). start attacking the queen (2 times putting her in the air until both phoenixes energy is used up then the third phoenix arrives and i can kill the queen.
after that i got a short timespan where i can snipe overlords before his hydras come out (a job 3 phoenix do pretty well)
i tend to keep these phoenixes alive (you can repeat the queen sniping also later in game when hes havin few forces back in his main) or kill single workers (which is pretty micro intense and not that effective IMO) - but using them to scout and cripple his scouting already helps alot.
i dont think it makes sense to produce more phoenixes until lategame when I need them again against broodlords because now hell be going hydralisks and you gotta hurry to get storm or collossus out.
best regards
I'm going to have to give this one another try using your build. I never got an early enough forge and tried cannon/sentry defense but maybe this would be great on Lost Temple where you can cannon/block and take your nat. I'd just have to be weary of nydus canals. Though I totally agree with the fact that killing single workers is too micro intensive... you have to constantly watch them to not lose any, have to keep on lifting things, and then you only get like 4 kills by the time you're pushed out of there. However, it's pretty funny and can throw people off. I find that using phoenixes for this purpose to be more of the equivalent of the Stove for SC2, but maybe someone can prove me wrong with a good VOD of it used properly.
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I find them to be a liability. They open the door wide to a tech switch, which can be a good thing, since you KNOW its going to happen, but when their GtA force (Marines, Stalkers, Hydras) reaches a certain point, your Phoenixes aren't going to be useful in the confrontation at all. They're not like Banshees and Mutas where you can quite safely kill equal their number in GtA units. It takes a lot of micro to be effective, and the energy cost is a HUGE hinderance in their ability to do that.
Denying Overlord scouting and forcing a tech switch to a ground army can be great, but if they had already decided on a ground army and you didn't scout it earlier (you're not going to have Observers until after the Phoenixes after all) then you're pretty much boned. To me its just a reactionary unit to a Muta/Banshee rush. Then its a matter of finding something useful for these guys to do before they become obsolete to a GtA force.
There doesn't seem to be anything worthwhile they can do that a wad of Blinking Stalkers can't.
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I really like going double stargate phoenix+zealots vs zerg on desert oasis. Most of the time the zerg goes for mutaling on that map. I keep double pumping+chrono phoenix on the 2 stargates then reveal only when mutalisks pop out. I kill off all the mutalisks, run in and kill the queens and the zerg GGs. I only do it because I hate going ground army vs mutaling. On that map I want air superiority.
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The Phoenix also should give you a complete scout on z's base, right? That counts for something.
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Yeah, but you can get the same benefit from 100/100 at the Cyber Core 
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When I see toss go phoenix I say to myself ok whatever I'll make even more mutas.
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On April 20 2010 04:56 guitarizt wrote:
When I see toss go phoenix I say to myself ok whatever I'll make even more mutas.
lol, that's exactly my same thought process.
toss's need to stop thinking they have to get phoenixes to counter mutas
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I've had success in PvZ opening with like 5 Phoenix and just harassing Queens/Overlords until he gets Hydra/Muta. I always take into account that a Roach bust could be bad, so I get my Forge up before my fleet flies out and start some Cannons to be safe. It really depends on what I scout from the Z, sometimes I can get away with putting the Cannons at my natural and expanding, sometimes I have to turtle up my ramp.
The important thing I noticed when trying something like this is that you have to transition into a ground army, there is really no way you can keep air superiority. What this does is pretty much forces to Zerg's hand a bit earlier than he wants too, since he HAS to do something about your Phoenix. Whether it's Spores, Hydras, or Mutas, you should be ready for whatever.
I would imagine that a build like this would be weak vs a multi-queen defense (as in more than 2), but even then, 5 Phoenix kill a queen in 1 lift. If they Zerg is able to scout it, he might be able to get some defense, but 5 Phoenix (w/ Chrono Boost) come out very quickly and seem to hit at an awkward time every time I've used it, right before any kind of anti-air would be prepared.
I would post reps but my SC2 computer's mobo just fried. I'll try to snag them off the HD and post them later if I can.
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On April 20 2010 05:00 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 04:56 guitarizt wrote:
When I see toss go phoenix I say to myself ok whatever I'll make even more mutas. lol, that's exactly my same thought process. toss's need to stop thinking they have to get phoenixes to counter mutas
i'd rather they didn't and additionally found out how guardian shield also helps air units, ridiculing the muta's glaive, especially with +1 shield upgrade
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On April 20 2010 05:14 yarkO wrote:
I've had success in PvZ opening with like 5 Phoenix and just harassing Queens/Overlords until he gets Hydra/Muta. I always take into account that a Roach bust could be bad, so I get my Forge up before my fleet flies out and start some Cannons to be safe. It really depends on what I scout from the Z, sometimes I can get away with putting the Cannons at my natural and expanding, sometimes I have to turtle up my ramp.
The important thing I noticed when trying something like this is that you have to transition into a ground army, there is really no way you can keep air superiority. What this does is pretty much forces to Zerg's hand a bit earlier than he wants too, since he HAS to do something about your Phoenix. Whether it's Spores, Hydras, or Mutas, you should be ready for whatever.
I would imagine that a build like this would be weak vs a multi-queen defense (as in more than 2), but even then, 5 Phoenix kill a queen in 1 lift. If they Zerg is able to scout it, he might be able to get some defense, but 5 Phoenix (w/ Chrono Boost) come out very quickly and seem to hit at an awkward time every time I've used it, right before any kind of anti-air would be prepared.
I would post reps but my SC2 computer's mobo just fried. I'll try to snag them off the HD and post them later if I can.
I do not see how this would be more beneficial than a void ray rush. If they have one queen and are not close to more anti-air, yes 5 phoenixes would easily kill a queen, but 1 void ray kills a queen and will get the lair if they are in the same position that you'd be using the phoenixes.
Now there may be ways it is better: is it quicker than a void ray rush? (Sounds like it wouldn't be because it's multiple phoenixes). Do you find it has a better transition than the void ray rush if they had enough anti-air to stop it and is therefore a safer way of executing the same idea?
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phoenix is kind of a joke unit for anything besides sniping overlords and harrassing queens early.. I hope it gets a buff. It needs to at least be able to do damage against non-light air, even if that means nerfing the void ray to only hit ground (that would match up with what the other races have in air units). But I like where the OP is going since they do make for a handy tech switch. A good muta player is much harder to deal with than zerg ground (as toss) for me.
I have found them to be handy against zerg. I've never tried them against terran but besides lifting siege tanks i don't think they'd be more effective than templar or colossus. Not even going to mention protoss.
I really think PvZ is the only really viable situation. If they go mutas after your harrass you can just mass more phoenix, but if they get even a few corruptors you're in trouble since phoenix barely hit them. But mostly they'll go hydra and you should've bought yourself some time to get a council or maybe expand with cannons.
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On April 20 2010 05:39 rackdude wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 05:14 yarkO wrote:
I've had success in PvZ opening with like 5 Phoenix and just harassing Queens/Overlords until he gets Hydra/Muta. I always take into account that a Roach bust could be bad, so I get my Forge up before my fleet flies out and start some Cannons to be safe. It really depends on what I scout from the Z, sometimes I can get away with putting the Cannons at my natural and expanding, sometimes I have to turtle up my ramp.
The important thing I noticed when trying something like this is that you have to transition into a ground army, there is really no way you can keep air superiority. What this does is pretty much forces to Zerg's hand a bit earlier than he wants too, since he HAS to do something about your Phoenix. Whether it's Spores, Hydras, or Mutas, you should be ready for whatever.
I would imagine that a build like this would be weak vs a multi-queen defense (as in more than 2), but even then, 5 Phoenix kill a queen in 1 lift. If they Zerg is able to scout it, he might be able to get some defense, but 5 Phoenix (w/ Chrono Boost) come out very quickly and seem to hit at an awkward time every time I've used it, right before any kind of anti-air would be prepared.
I would post reps but my SC2 computer's mobo just fried. I'll try to snag them off the HD and post them later if I can. I do not see how this would be more beneficial than a void ray rush. If they have one queen and are not close to more anti-air, yes 5 phoenixes would easily kill a queen, but 1 void ray kills a queen and will get the lair if they are in the same position that you'd be using the phoenixes. Now there may be ways it is better: is it quicker than a void ray rush? (Sounds like it wouldn't be because it's multiple phoenixes). Do you find it has a better transition than the void ray rush if they had enough anti-air to stop it and is therefore a safer way of executing the same idea?
The argument i've heard for phoenix instead of VR is that phoenix allow for more overlord/queen kills and thus more immidiate damage to the zerg's production and economy without the more difficut gambit of killing structures, which require you to catch your opponent completely off-guard.
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Pheonixes are for 1, not the cheapest unit ever made, and are really a toss up. The tech keeps you from going robo tech on 1 base effectively, and really is hard to hold an expand with pheonixes early.
They have their uses, and on a bigger map such as desert oasis I think they are very good, but not on smaller maps, as they can just counter when your 2-3 pheonixes can only lift up 3 units...
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Phoenixes don't counter mutas to well imo. I prefer just going stalkers with blink. Or some cannons on the mineral line.
Also for a fast stargate vers Zerg, I just go Voidrays, kill the queen with two, take out the hatchery. If the zerg has anti air, I just harass with it and take out some drones or buildings at the edge of the base or usually go back to my base to defend with it since I dont have as many ground forces at this point.
I haven't seen many uses for Phoenixes although the picking up an SCV and dropping it back down to stop it building something is cool. I think they need a small buff to be effective in some situations, but at the same time, I kind of like Protoss having a weaker air. Means we always got something to think about.
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On April 20 2010 05:18 roemy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 05:00 danl9rm wrote:On April 20 2010 04:56 guitarizt wrote:
When I see toss go phoenix I say to myself ok whatever I'll make even more mutas. lol, that's exactly my same thought process. toss's need to stop thinking they have to get phoenixes to counter mutas i'd rather they didn't and additionally found out how guardian shield also helps air units, ridiculing the muta's glaive, especially with +1 shield upgrade
The speed of the Mutalisk and Phoenix vs the speed of the Sentry is kind of difficult to field both in unison.
Sure, if two big armies with these units collide, Guardian Shield is going to help immensely, but most of the time Mutas are only reachable when they're harassing. If you're using Phoenixes the fight could end up being ANYWHERE on the map, as you chase them down while they're fleeing. More often that not, miles away from your Sentry ball.
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Yeah, but you can get the same benefit from 100/100 at the Cyber Core
Phoenix is considerably faster. Warp Gate research takes 140 second. Hallucination takes 110. Stargate + Phoenix takes 105 total.
Hallucination also costs substantial Sentry energy to use as a routine scout, effectively costing you gas over time to keep going. And Hallucination doesn't deny z scouting either, which Phoenix should do pretty well.
Anyway, I'm not saying everyone should be using Phoenix like they did Corsairs in BW. I just think the argument against them isn't as simple as it is being made out to be.
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as a zerg i rly dont see much of an issue with phoenix...if i scout you are doing one stargate phoenix i still will make mutas from 2 base just to force u to make more useless phoenix and then tech switch to roach/hydra and suddenly a whole tech from you is useless...i guess 3 phoenix just to harras queens/ovis is fine in the beginning but from that point on u should switch to robo/warpgates.
Also i think that most Tosses dont have a nice followup from doing phoenix or vrays. If u throw down an expo while harrasing and find a way to defend it it would be good i guess but just to stay on one base it sucks imo.
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On April 20 2010 05:39 rackdude wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 05:14 yarkO wrote:
I've had success in PvZ opening with like 5 Phoenix and just harassing Queens/Overlords until he gets Hydra/Muta. I always take into account that a Roach bust could be bad, so I get my Forge up before my fleet flies out and start some Cannons to be safe. It really depends on what I scout from the Z, sometimes I can get away with putting the Cannons at my natural and expanding, sometimes I have to turtle up my ramp.
The important thing I noticed when trying something like this is that you have to transition into a ground army, there is really no way you can keep air superiority. What this does is pretty much forces to Zerg's hand a bit earlier than he wants too, since he HAS to do something about your Phoenix. Whether it's Spores, Hydras, or Mutas, you should be ready for whatever.
I would imagine that a build like this would be weak vs a multi-queen defense (as in more than 2), but even then, 5 Phoenix kill a queen in 1 lift. If they Zerg is able to scout it, he might be able to get some defense, but 5 Phoenix (w/ Chrono Boost) come out very quickly and seem to hit at an awkward time every time I've used it, right before any kind of anti-air would be prepared.
I would post reps but my SC2 computer's mobo just fried. I'll try to snag them off the HD and post them later if I can. I do not see how this would be more beneficial than a void ray rush. If they have one queen and are not close to more anti-air, yes 5 phoenixes would easily kill a queen, but 1 void ray kills a queen and will get the lair if they are in the same position that you'd be using the phoenixes. Now there may be ways it is better: is it quicker than a void ray rush? (Sounds like it wouldn't be because it's multiple phoenixes). Do you find it has a better transition than the void ray rush if they had enough anti-air to stop it and is therefore a safer way of executing the same idea?
Truthfully, I only started doing it because I really don't like how Void Rays look lol.
My other problem with VR is that they are so slow, on most maps you have to proxy the tech to get the most from it. It feels a lot more vulnerable, and everybody these days is scouting for proxy VR so it loses it's strongest point (being a surprise).
With the Phoenix, I found it doesn't really matter if they catch a peek at my tech. While I do get an early Sentry to chase the Ovie out, and to have energy to block the ramp multiple times, the Phoenix really do come out so fast with CB. I would have to test it a bunch vs a VR rush to see which one hits faster.
As someone else posted, Void Rays are really hit-or-miss. If they scout and are prepared, you could end up doing 0 damage. I've never had a game where my Phoenix did 0 damage. At best, you kill Queen(s), Overlords and maybe Drones before they get some AA. It constricts any anti-air they have to their base, and any ground rush quickly loses steam as they lose Overlords and are unable to reinforce the attack. Even in a more desperate scenario (which I've come across), you use your Phoenix to lift up their Roaches and focus the rest with Cannons behind a forcefield.
It transitions like any other Stargate opening, you can either expand with some Cannons or if needed, build up an army off 1 or 2 gates that can secure your natural. Phoenix should not win you the game outright, but can secure you a nice advantage into the mid-game.
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I don't build phoenix's.
It's working pretty well.
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Normally versus Zerg I find myself simply sticking to the basics, of Zealots, Stalker, Sentry, and Immortals, and staying aggressive and generally producing enough Stalkers that going Mutalisk would be a terrible idea for the Zerg, But I digress.
Particularly on the small 1v1 maps, I like to do more of a tech style of play, using cannons and sentry/zealot to wall-off ling/roach pushes and getting quick Stargate as has been discussed above. Essentially when I go this build what I intend to do is expand while harassing with the Phoenix (I get about five). Meanwhile I will tech for the appropriate counter to whatever he seems to be doing. Basically you want to go for Overlords, keep the Zerg supply locked as long as possible. At the same time I bring my Zealots to his choke/natural whichever is applicable and start harassing there as well.
The real Strength to the Phoenix I believe is being used in a manner similar to what Zerg likes to do with Mutalisk and harassing and containing a Zerg. The Phoenix as pure AA is not that powerful but when you are able to lift key units into the air (and with a enough Phoenix quickly killing them) as well as contain a Zergs production via Overlords harass, or at least force him to go Spores and burn money on those it's clear we have yet to see its full potential.
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On April 20 2010 06:14 puckthecat wrote:Phoenix is considerably faster. Warp Gate research takes 140 second. Hallucination takes 110. Stargate + Phoenix takes 105 total. Hallucination also costs substantial Sentry energy to use as a routine scout, effectively costing you gas over time to keep going. And Hallucination doesn't deny z scouting either, which Phoenix should do pretty well. Anyway, I'm not saying everyone should be using Phoenix like they did Corsairs in BW. I just think the argument against them isn't as simple as it is being made out to be.
Just saying, if that's all you want Phoenixes for, better to get Hallucination. At least they can actually help you in a fight! Spawning a buttload of Zealots, Stalkers and Immortals to trick them into thinking your army is much larger, and having lots of fake targets to hit is really cool. Too many people tend to use them to spawn Collossi at an absurdly early point in the game and fooling nobody in the process.
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graviton beam ftw!!!! extend to 15 seconds through research plox
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Get them to support void rays. Otherwise you have to do a ton of damage for it to be worth it.
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Just saying, if that's all you want Phoenixes for, better to get Hallucination.
It isn't all one would want Phoenixes for. It is just something it does in addition to whatever other reasons you might get it. If you are willing to pay 100/100 for scouting, you should take that into consideration when judging the 300/250 it costs you to build your first Phoenix.
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PT vs ZX you could maybe use Phoenix + Vikings to snipe stuff?
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What about using phoenixes for sniping Overseers and using DTs?
I haven't seen anyone talk about that combination yet, but it seems like it would be decent for forcing a zerg to get more overseers than they would like to get aggressive.
The only problem is the wasted tech transitions to get that far would probably set you far back, so you'd have to be ultra aggressive in hunting OLs with phoenixes to get there.
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I've done phoenix dt before, it takes a lot of teching and you have to cut units early on, but its worth it. I don't recommend trying it though because I just randomly did the build. (gold division)
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Only time i made alot of them is in pvp on like desert oasis works quite well vs players that aren't ready for it ie scouts bad. Also done like 2-3 of them to kill queens in pvz
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On April 20 2010 05:39 rackdude wrote:
I do not see how this would be more beneficial than a void ray rush. If they have one queen and are not close to more anti-air, yes 5 phoenixes would easily kill a queen, but 1 void ray kills a queen and will get the lair if they are in the same position that you'd be using the phoenixes.
Now there may be ways it is better: is it quicker than a void ray rush? (Sounds like it wouldn't be because it's multiple phoenixes). Do you find it has a better transition than the void ray rush if they had enough anti-air to stop it and is therefore a safer way of executing the same idea?
A single void ray will lose to a queen in 27 seconds.
Total Cost: 150/100 -2 unit quota
A single phoenix will lose to a queen in 19 seconds.
Total Cost: 250 150 -3 unit quota
I'd say a single stargate might be a good tactic to get those 2-3 phoenixes, to scout fast (observer is slow- but offers decloaking for late game DT/burrow/ghost detection) and snipe a few OL's (slowing zerg growth rate), drones, probes, or SCVs- essentially paying for themselves in lost production for the enemy. It'll slow his push too because he'll be thinking "ohsh**oshi*oh**it".
It will goad him into going fast anti-air, using up resources, at which point you can tech switch to immortals/sentries/zealots, while he pumps out stalkers, canons, towers, sporethings, hydras, and whatever anti-air terran uses most (I forget  ).
Give yourself time for a handful of immos/z's and start an expansion, set a rallypoint near his base and queue up more, then push in.
And when you do this, you still have those phoenixes flying around sniping units, one at a time. Harassing then retreating (queue jobs from your base, up side of map, into line, kill one drone, then out of base and back home).
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Here are some replays to a build I use as a standard vs zerg.
#1
#2
#3
Couple of things to consider when going with phoenix's vs zerg. With 5 phoenix's 1 can lift a hydra the other 4 one shot it. Nice to use when he is first getting his hydra's up as in small numbers you should be able to take them.
Phoenix's are better than hallucinations and void rays in the sense that they give you map control.
Generally speaking its not a good idea to waste energy harassing his drones. Save the lifts for queen & hydra sniping. When it comes to muta's i dont' try to mass enough phoenix's to take on all his mutas but to chase down stragglers fleeing your stalker/sentry smackdown.. Its also worth noting 5 phoenix's 1 shot a muta. Micro matters there.
Phoenix's give you vision on high ground which can be useful with stalkers. Which leads into the fact that stalkers & sentries hit air. Later game i have as many as 10 phoenix's. If you engage first with your army and split it with forcefield then lift part of that first army your ground forces come out of that battle with a nice bit of health.
Someone already mentioned this but it bears repeating. Phoenix harrass + DT combo can be very deadly.
Here is a replay
The important part to consider is that if you have dt's he can't leave his base safely without overseers. So you kill them with phoenix's. I would love to see an upgrade at the Core that gives them 25% more starting energy so you can actually use gravitational lift.
I also like pheonix's vs toss. It counters void ray rushes pretty handily, they do some damage to collossus (and if you get lucky enough to spot a lone one you can take it out fairly easily. If they go somewhat immortal heavy you can compete with far fewer when you are lifting his in the air and focus firing the one or 2 left on the ground. With your own observers out you can obs snipe. Couple of dt's get warped into your minerals while your army is out pillaging? obs + phoenix stops it.
Vs Terran they have a far more limited use though I still really want to make them work because they are probably my favorite unit in the game. So far all i have is ghost & reaper sniping, lifting siege tanks just as i push with my main army, stopping fast banshee's, if they go with 100% maurauder/ghost army I think phoenix's could really punish that play well. I'm thinking that perhaps hallucinated phoenix's mixed with my main army might even let me thin out the marines of their main force. that 20dmg a shot pisses me off though. nothing like wasting that 3rd shot for only 5 dmg  or with a +1 upgrade even less.
Seriously though. Phoenix's are great vs zerg. Most P don't use them so if nothing else it will give you the edge of surprise / lack of experience vs the build.
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A simple diagram to demonstrate proper phoenix use.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2mc3T.jpg)
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Just played a beautiful fast phoenix game. I've changed up my build to go gate core stargate gate. Go with tons of stalkers & phoenix's. I think it would work vs roaches but most games people push for hydras and if you have your production up before him you're good. If you see more zerglings i'm guessing tons of zealots would work.
Replay
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On April 20 2010 02:32 Everyday wrote:
I am not in the beta, but i think phoenixes could be good if you take them with your ground army to snipe medivacs, but also for their gravity blast thing.
They could easily snipe ghosts, queens, sentries and other annoying units.
Never saw them used like that...
I saw a plat replay with graviton beam being used on ghosts: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=120002
The pheonixes die, but so do the ghosts, and before they can emp the ground army. Seems a good trade.
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they should make it so that 5 phoenix's be able to use graviton beam on one thor and levitate it, itd be hilarious
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I always keep adding phoenixes in PvZ midgame. I gem map and cover my base while I attack. Its more like a tool than a base unit. Anyway, is very build dependant, doing it fast could give you some games, but it often limits your chances of a good mid/late unless you FEed. I find fast inmortal way stronger, in every MU, but I open with phoenix/vr sometimes.
I think its a great unit with a lot of potential. We need just to figure out how to make them while being in good shape, just as the old good fellow corsair. Still want to see some ridiculous colossi/phoenix build... I think I am totally working on that tomorrow.
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till now i am trying to avoid the use of phoenix since i think of it as reaver corsair in BW, require too much apm and would be roll over if the enemy has a soild ground force.
what i am thinking is that this unit might give us a suprise in PvP in the close future since toss anti air is not that great
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I open Stargate PvZ when I fast expand, but it's usually just to force them into defending against air and killing OLs, while just preparing for my true attack. However, I find it nice to have the Stargate for later if they start adding air units of any kind. With good scouting, you can know ahead of time and add your Phoenix before you need them. They're pretty cheap and easy to fit in. If he's going mass muta I will typically add a second Stargate.
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i like everydays idea of using a phoenix with a ground army to snipe medivacs and graviton beam ghosts..not sure if it would work but deffinitely cant hurt to try it out
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Canada11379 Posts
Does anyone know if using phoenixes to counter medivac/drop ship play is very effective? I recently got destroyed by a terran abusing cliffs with two tanks and a medivac. I tried using blink to get up the cliffs, but I usually didn't have enough observers (and then didn't have enough stalkers). Also took too long to destroy the rocks to get up some of the cliffs, plus he just gave me the run around as soon as I was close.
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Ok I figured I should play some different tactics and went for 4 phoenix against Zerg and then pumped out Rays. The phoenixes got a few OLords, and scouted a roach heavy army.
I'm not so good at macro yet and usually try to pwn zerg with immortals before they can expand or I get pwned.
I figured now would be a good time to send in 6 rays- I took out what turned out to be a 2nd expansion, then got a gas geyser and was heading for the main hatchery but lost them all to hydras and a queen.
I stupidly stuck to air and went for carriers, still on my first base- put down an expand at the natural, but I knew I was screwed when I scouted another expansion next to me (high ground on BS). I got the carriers into his rebuilt 2nd expand and took out the gas but then had hydras and queens all over the map. There was no way I was coming back from that. I put down two robo bays and a ton of cannons but they didn't live for long...
I think I'd have been better going for robo-bay then immortals and templars. Storm and blast them, grab an expansion or two early and keep pumping them out, throw in some DTs when the money gets up and rush them to the main to take out his tech buildings.
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Phoenixes are great units, but I find that to use them effectively in the long run is too APM intensive for me :[
It feels kinda like sair+reaver from BW. Awesome build, but sooo hard to pull off.
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So I like the phoenix, the concept the ability and everything and I try and throw it in almost always when playing against zerg for scout/harrass/mental bias them to not get muta, but lets really be honest here. Lets just take the phoenix, corruptor, and viking as pure Air-superiority fighters and ignore their abilities and the associated tech to be able to produce them(of which I think the phoenix is by far the worst to transition to AND I find its ability to be the worst of the 3, though i still love using it).
Lets look at non-attack related specs first:
All cost 2 supply.
A phoenix costs 150/100, a viking 150/75, and a corruptor 150/100
A phoenix has a build time of 45, a viking of 42, and a corruptor of 40
A phoenix has a total of 180 hp(only 60 can regen), a viking 125(all can be repaired), and a corruptor 200(all can regen)
A phoenix has 0 armor, a viking 0 armor, and a corruptor 2 armor
A phoenix has a fast movement speed, viking is normal, corruptor is normal
A phoenix has a range of 4, a viking 9, a corruptor 6
A phoenix gets a simple +1 base attack for each upgrade, a viking gets a +1 base and +1 vs armored, a corruptor gets a +1 base and a +1 vs massive
I believe all have normal(not sure of exact #'s) attack speeds.
Clearly by just looking at this the phoenix shines in 1 aspect, speed, besides that and some moderate HP, the phoenix is simply the flat out worst unit of the 3. So with these stats in mind one would assume the phoenix would have the best attack of the 3 to make up for its lackluster stats/cost ratio.
Lets assume we have 3 units with 0 armor: Unit A is an armored unit, whereas Unit B is a massive unit and Unit C is a light unit.
Now a phoenix does 2x (5 + 5 vs light)
A viking does 2 x (10 +4 vs armored)
A corruptor does 12 + 10 vs massive
Attacking Unit A(armored) a phoenix will do 10 damage, a viking 28, and a corruptor 12.
Attacking Unit B(massive) a phoenix will do 10 damage, a viking 20, a corruptor 22.
Attacking Unit C(light) a phoenix will do 20 damage, a viking 20, and a corruptor 12.
So against armored units the viking is obviously the best, against massive units the corruptor slightly edges out the viking and is the best, and against light units.....the phoenix ties with the viking. NOW WAIT A MINUTE, wasn't it fairly obvious(the non-attack stats) above that phoenix's were the worst unit? So WHY does the unit that is supposed to be the best against light units do the same damage as a viking which has MORE then double its range?
Overall I feel that corruptors are well balanced(cost/stats wise), vikings are too good costs/stats wise, and the phoenix is so horribly unbalanced(ONLY looking at it as an Air-superiority fighter and no abilities considered) compared to the other 2 cost/stats wise its a joke!
Well thats my spiel on the subject.
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I found hit and run tactics to be quite useful. I go I gate cyber to stargate, and then pump phoenix from 1 stargate and zealots from 3 gates. A zerg going mutas will easily beat my phoenixes just out of sheer numbers, but since phoenixes are fast, I just keep doing hit and runs on the mutas while my zealots attack. If the zerg focuses on my phoenixes, then my phoenixes will be able to stall long enough for my zealots to do significant damage. Last game I had 4 phoenixes and a large handful of zealots vs over a dozen mutas and and large blob on lings. When the mutas were finally able to kill my phoenixes, I had already destroyed both the natural and the main. Once corrupters and/or hydras come out, it's a different story.
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On April 22 2010 07:03 Silver777 wrote:
So against armored units the viking is obviously the best, against massive units the corruptor slightly edges out the viking and is the best, and against light units.....the phoenix ties with the viking. NOW WAIT A MINUTE, wasn't it fairly obvious(the non-attack stats) above that phoenix's were the worst unit? So WHY does the unit that is supposed to be the best against light units do the same damage as a viking which has MORE then double its range?
Overall I feel that corruptors are well balanced(cost/stats wise), vikings are too good costs/stats wise, and the phoenix is so horribly unbalanced(ONLY looking at it as an Air-superiority fighter and no abilities considered) compared to the other 2 cost/stats wise its a joke!
Well thats my spiel on the subject.
You're not including attack speed in your calculations, thats like me compaing siege tanks to collosi and saying its bs cos siege tank does 60 whilst collosi only does 40 when costing 300/200 and 6 food compared to 150/125 and 3 food (or w/e siege tank is nowadays)....
That being said, i agree with your analysis and phoenexes do suck just pointing it out.
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On April 22 2010 07:15 Ftrunkz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2010 07:03 Silver777 wrote:
So against armored units the viking is obviously the best, against massive units the corruptor slightly edges out the viking and is the best, and against light units.....the phoenix ties with the viking. NOW WAIT A MINUTE, wasn't it fairly obvious(the non-attack stats) above that phoenix's were the worst unit? So WHY does the unit that is supposed to be the best against light units do the same damage as a viking which has MORE then double its range?
Overall I feel that corruptors are well balanced(cost/stats wise), vikings are too good costs/stats wise, and the phoenix is so horribly unbalanced(ONLY looking at it as an Air-superiority fighter and no abilities considered) compared to the other 2 cost/stats wise its a joke!
Well thats my spiel on the subject. You're not including attack speed in your calculations, thats like me compaing siege tanks to collosi and saying its bs cos siege tank does 60 whilst collosi only does 40 when costing 300/200 and 6 food compared to 150/125 and 3 food (or w/e siege tank is nowadays).... That being said, i agree with your analysis and phoenexes do suck just pointing it out.
If you look at what I said in the upper section, all have "normal" attack speeds, the exact numbers I don't know, but they are fairly similar(though I I think the phoenix's is slightly faster IDK though).
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Assuming the opponents scouting has failed, a five phoenix push can utterly decimate Zerg and to a lesser extent Terran. Pheoni (plural? lol) destroy light ground units. So if the zerg hasn't tech to hydra's or the terran wasn't massing marines you stand a great chance of holding his base down with proper micro until a void ray or two can come in to finish off the buildings or a small land army can come over. Hydras are very easy to lift and snipe as they pop out of eggs. Marines are alittle more tricky if he has multiple raxs particularly with reactors. However, terrans if caught with no static AA are royally screwed as you can almost infinitely lift and snipe his constructing units.
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Nice math silver. I totally agree with you. The phoenix either needs to be a lot tougher, do much more dmg vs light (whcih would make it even mroe viable vs hydras or rines or just be way cheaper & faster to build.
Personally i think the phoenix should actaully have mroe shields than hp. That would synergize well with its use. Hit & run. Since shields regen if there was more shields on it you could get in do some worker harrass and take a few hits then get out without all of your phoenix's getting into the red from 1 spore crawler or a few hydras. I also think it works well with its ability which basically vs a ground army means they have to lift only part of a force. 5 phoenix's vs 5 hydras for example or vs 10 marines. If you could fly in and lift a few off and kill them and fly out let your shields regen while HP stays in the green phoenix's would be much better but still require TONS of apm.
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On April 22 2010 07:03 Silver777 wrote:
So I like the phoenix, the concept the ability and everything and I try and throw it in almost always when playing against zerg for scout/harrass/mental bias them to not get muta, but lets really be honest here. Lets just take the phoenix, corruptor, and viking as pure Air-superiority fighters and ignore their abilities and the associated tech to be able to produce them(of which I think the phoenix is by far the worst to transition to AND I find its ability to be the worst of the 3, though i still love using it).
Lets look at non-attack related specs first:
All cost 2 supply.
A phoenix costs 150/100, a viking 150/75, and a corruptor 150/100
A phoenix has a build time of 45, a viking of 42, and a corruptor of 40
A phoenix has a total of 180 hp(only 60 can regen), a viking 125(all can be repaired), and a corruptor 200(all can regen)
A phoenix has 0 armor, a viking 0 armor, and a corruptor 2 armor
A phoenix has a fast movement speed, viking is normal, corruptor is normal
A phoenix has a range of 4, a viking 9, a corruptor 6
A phoenix gets a simple +1 base attack for each upgrade, a viking gets a +1 base and +1 vs armored, a corruptor gets a +1 base and a +1 vs massive
I believe all have normal(not sure of exact #'s) attack speeds.
Clearly by just looking at this the phoenix shines in 1 aspect, speed, besides that and some moderate HP, the phoenix is simply the flat out worst unit of the 3. So with these stats in mind one would assume the phoenix would have the best attack of the 3 to make up for its lackluster stats/cost ratio.
Lets assume we have 3 units with 0 armor: Unit A is an armored unit, whereas Unit B is a massive unit and Unit C is a light unit.
Now a phoenix does 2x (5 + 5 vs light)
A viking does 2 x (10 +4 vs armored)
A corruptor does 12 + 10 vs massive
Attacking Unit A(armored) a phoenix will do 10 damage, a viking 28, and a corruptor 12.
Attacking Unit B(massive) a phoenix will do 10 damage, a viking 20, a corruptor 22.
Attacking Unit C(light) a phoenix will do 20 damage, a viking 20, and a corruptor 12.
So against armored units the viking is obviously the best, against massive units the corruptor slightly edges out the viking and is the best, and against light units.....the phoenix ties with the viking. NOW WAIT A MINUTE, wasn't it fairly obvious(the non-attack stats) above that phoenix's were the worst unit? So WHY does the unit that is supposed to be the best against light units do the same damage as a viking which has MORE then double its range?
Overall I feel that corruptors are well balanced(cost/stats wise), vikings are too good costs/stats wise, and the phoenix is so horribly unbalanced(ONLY looking at it as an Air-superiority fighter and no abilities considered) compared to the other 2 cost/stats wise its a joke!
Well thats my spiel on the subject.
Phoenix definitely shoots faster than Viking and Corruptor so it's stronger against Light.
On the other hand math against massive targets isn't correct - all of them are Armored and many Armored units have base armor so it's even worse: Phoenix deals 6 damage to Corruptors, Broodlords and Carriers (no shields obv); 4 to BCs.
Considering it's speed and that from Light flyers only Mutas can hit it back while Banshees and Nomads can't it's range doesn't matter as much.
Since it's so fast it can rely less on your other forces and be used more independent, get in and out of fights faster, chase down enemy flyers - Mutas are faster than Vikings and Corrupters so they can escape them but can't do this as easily when fighting Pheonixes.
I think Banshees and definitely Nomads are slower than Phoenixes.
I think that Phoenixes are easier to use against ground units but it depends on target if they do this better than Vikings.
IMO Corruptor is the worst in comparison to Viking and Phoenix - the only unit they are really good and used against frequently is Colossus. Corruptors aren't specialized against anything else.
They deflect Phoenixes but the only thing Protoss player has to do is to avoid them - keeping Mutas away and/or in lower numbers once Zerg gets more Corruptors instead of Mutas should buy Protoss enough time to prepare better AA, for example get Blink and Storm.
We don't know if Carriers are viable enough in the PvZ late game; BCs may end not being viable at all in any other mu than TvT.
Corruptors have range and DPS about the same and Hydras, aren't noticeably faster (especially counting in +30% speed creep gives Hydras) and are much more expensive.
If the other player can keep Hydras away but doesn't have enough AA it's probably better to get more Mutas in most cases anyway. Not all though, since they morph into Broodlords but that's still limited use?
The math that really interests me is how good are Void Rays against Corruptors and Vikings, treating fully charged and/or speed upgraded Rays as sort of defferent cases.
I wonder if Protoss players will keep Warp Prisms with their Void Rays to warp in some units or buildings Rays can use to charge their beams before getting into fight.
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On April 22 2010 09:39 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2010 07:03 Silver777 wrote:
So I like the phoenix, the concept the ability and everything and I try and throw it in almost always when playing against zerg for scout/harrass/mental bias them to not get muta, but lets really be honest here. Lets just take the phoenix, corruptor, and viking as pure Air-superiority fighters and ignore their abilities and the associated tech to be able to produce them(of which I think the phoenix is by far the worst to transition to AND I find its ability to be the worst of the 3, though i still love using it).
Lets look at non-attack related specs first:
All cost 2 supply.
A phoenix costs 150/100, a viking 150/75, and a corruptor 150/100
A phoenix has a build time of 45, a viking of 42, and a corruptor of 40
A phoenix has a total of 180 hp(only 60 can regen), a viking 125(all can be repaired), and a corruptor 200(all can regen)
A phoenix has 0 armor, a viking 0 armor, and a corruptor 2 armor
A phoenix has a fast movement speed, viking is normal, corruptor is normal
A phoenix has a range of 4, a viking 9, a corruptor 6
A phoenix gets a simple +1 base attack for each upgrade, a viking gets a +1 base and +1 vs armored, a corruptor gets a +1 base and a +1 vs massive
I believe all have normal(not sure of exact #'s) attack speeds.
Clearly by just looking at this the phoenix shines in 1 aspect, speed, besides that and some moderate HP, the phoenix is simply the flat out worst unit of the 3. So with these stats in mind one would assume the phoenix would have the best attack of the 3 to make up for its lackluster stats/cost ratio.
Lets assume we have 3 units with 0 armor: Unit A is an armored unit, whereas Unit B is a massive unit and Unit C is a light unit.
Now a phoenix does 2x (5 + 5 vs light)
A viking does 2 x (10 +4 vs armored)
A corruptor does 12 + 10 vs massive
Attacking Unit A(armored) a phoenix will do 10 damage, a viking 28, and a corruptor 12.
Attacking Unit B(massive) a phoenix will do 10 damage, a viking 20, a corruptor 22.
Attacking Unit C(light) a phoenix will do 20 damage, a viking 20, and a corruptor 12.
So against armored units the viking is obviously the best, against massive units the corruptor slightly edges out the viking and is the best, and against light units.....the phoenix ties with the viking. NOW WAIT A MINUTE, wasn't it fairly obvious(the non-attack stats) above that phoenix's were the worst unit? So WHY does the unit that is supposed to be the best against light units do the same damage as a viking which has MORE then double its range?
Overall I feel that corruptors are well balanced(cost/stats wise), vikings are too good costs/stats wise, and the phoenix is so horribly unbalanced(ONLY looking at it as an Air-superiority fighter and no abilities considered) compared to the other 2 cost/stats wise its a joke!
Well thats my spiel on the subject. Phoenix definitely shoots faster than Viking and Corruptor so it's stronger against Light. On the other hand math against massive targets isn't correct - all of them are Armored and many Armored units have base armor so it's even worse: Phoenix deals 6 damage to Corruptors, Broodlords and Carriers (no shields obv); 4 to BCs. Considering it's speed and that from Light flyers only Mutas can hit it back while Banshees and Nomads can't it's range doesn't matter as much. Since it's so fast it can rely less on your other forces and be used more independent, get in and out of fights faster, chase down enemy flyers - Mutas are faster than Vikings and Corrupters so they can escape them but can't do this as easily when fighting Pheonixes. I think Banshees and definitely Nomads are slower than Phoenixes. I think that Phoenixes are easier to use against ground units but it depends on target if they do this better than Vikings. IMO Corruptor is the worst in comparison to Viking and Phoenix - the only unit they are really good and used against frequently is Colossus. Corruptors aren't specialized against anything else. They deflect Phoenixes but the only thing Protoss player has to do is to avoid them - keeping Mutas away and/or in lower numbers once Zerg gets more Corruptors instead of Mutas should buy Protoss enough time to prepare better AA, for example get Blink and Storm. We don't know if Carriers are viable enough in the PvZ late game; BCs may end not being viable at all in any other mu than TvT. Corruptors have range and DPS about the same and Hydras, aren't noticeably faster (especially counting in +30% speed creep gives Hydras) and are much more expensive. If the other player can keep Hydras away but doesn't have enough AA it's probably better to get more Mutas in most cases anyway. Not all though, since they morph into Broodlords but that's still limited use? The math that really interests me is how good are Void Rays against Corruptors and Vikings, treating fully charged and/or speed upgraded Rays as sort of defferent cases. I wonder if Protoss players will keep Warp Prisms with their Void Rays to warp in some units or buildings Rays can use to charge their beams before getting into fight.
Whats a nomad? a Raven?
As for my math, that was an example of units if they only had that armor type, and in reality yes units can have multiple(armored, massive, or a combination) thereby increasing the uses of viking/corruptors, but this still leaves the phoenix only useful vs muta(and getting phoenix's is pretty far out of the way(150/150 for a building to produce 4-6 150/100 units that will be used to counter 4-6 100/100 units for a building zerg ARE just going to use later for corruptor/broodlord combo's whereas your stargate is fairly worthless after stopping the initial muta harass and totally unable to counter the zerg corruptors). As for phoenix to counter banshee's well the phoenix have to BEAT the vikings first and that generally won't happen unless the terran is bad.
As for Corrupters they are actually pretty good imo, their 2 armor makes them great vs muta and they work well vs BC/carriers(2 armor once again very helpful). Overall i find carriers to be garbage as they die to easily to corruptors/vikings/BC since there is no viable AA support for toss AND there is no real transition possible to them. They also dominate phoenix's and are viable vs vikings. The range issues make them(6 vs col 9) not ideal against colossus(use broodlords instead as they can range colossus and stay in the back of your army as well), but they're decent. BY FAR the best thing about them is their natural transition into broodlords, thus making them 10x more viable then phoenix's already as they're a PERFECT natural transition and you will always have AA( for against vikings/phoenixs) for your flying juggernauts.
And "better" AA is just so subjective as toss AA is simply so bad. I mean sure blinking stalkers are great to deal with air units, but the cost(of stalkers lost) to kill a single broodlord ratio is just ridic for stalker usage and storming them can be pretty hard with broodlings spawning and roach ground support, LET ALONE if they take a full storm its not even 1/3 of a broodlords life......
As for voidrays, I've used them against colossus and zerg, but they really really get reamed by ANY(air or ground) anti-air unit that focus them and for 250/150, 3 supply, AND the lack of transitionable units its simply to expensive to make for anything but a cheese build. I mean unless you plan to cheese a zerg with voidrays then transition to a mothership rush(aka super cheesing it).
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On April 22 2010 10:14 Silver777 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2010 09:39 beetlelisk wrote:On April 22 2010 07:03 Silver777 wrote:
So I like the phoenix, the concept the ability and everything and I try and throw it in almost always when playing against zerg for scout/harrass/mental bias them to not get muta, but lets really be honest here. Lets just take the phoenix, corruptor, and viking as pure Air-superiority fighters and ignore their abilities and the associated tech to be able to produce them(of which I think the phoenix is by far the worst to transition to AND I find its ability to be the worst of the 3, though i still love using it).
Lets look at non-attack related specs first:
All cost 2 supply.
A phoenix costs 150/100, a viking 150/75, and a corruptor 150/100
A phoenix has a build time of 45, a viking of 42, and a corruptor of 40
A phoenix has a total of 180 hp(only 60 can regen), a viking 125(all can be repaired), and a corruptor 200(all can regen)
A phoenix has 0 armor, a viking 0 armor, and a corruptor 2 armor
A phoenix has a fast movement speed, viking is normal, corruptor is normal
A phoenix has a range of 4, a viking 9, a corruptor 6
A phoenix gets a simple +1 base attack for each upgrade, a viking gets a +1 base and +1 vs armored, a corruptor gets a +1 base and a +1 vs massive
I believe all have normal(not sure of exact #'s) attack speeds.
Clearly by just looking at this the phoenix shines in 1 aspect, speed, besides that and some moderate HP, the phoenix is simply the flat out worst unit of the 3. So with these stats in mind one would assume the phoenix would have the best attack of the 3 to make up for its lackluster stats/cost ratio.
Lets assume we have 3 units with 0 armor: Unit A is an armored unit, whereas Unit B is a massive unit and Unit C is a light unit.
Now a phoenix does 2x (5 + 5 vs light)
A viking does 2 x (10 +4 vs armored)
A corruptor does 12 + 10 vs massive
Attacking Unit A(armored) a phoenix will do 10 damage, a viking 28, and a corruptor 12.
Attacking Unit B(massive) a phoenix will do 10 damage, a viking 20, a corruptor 22.
Attacking Unit C(light) a phoenix will do 20 damage, a viking 20, and a corruptor 12.
So against armored units the viking is obviously the best, against massive units the corruptor slightly edges out the viking and is the best, and against light units.....the phoenix ties with the viking. NOW WAIT A MINUTE, wasn't it fairly obvious(the non-attack stats) above that phoenix's were the worst unit? So WHY does the unit that is supposed to be the best against light units do the same damage as a viking which has MORE then double its range?
Overall I feel that corruptors are well balanced(cost/stats wise), vikings are too good costs/stats wise, and the phoenix is so horribly unbalanced(ONLY looking at it as an Air-superiority fighter and no abilities considered) compared to the other 2 cost/stats wise its a joke!
Well thats my spiel on the subject. Phoenix definitely shoots faster than Viking and Corruptor so it's stronger against Light. On the other hand math against massive targets isn't correct - all of them are Armored and many Armored units have base armor so it's even worse: Phoenix deals 6 damage to Corruptors, Broodlords and Carriers (no shields obv); 4 to BCs. Considering it's speed and that from Light flyers only Mutas can hit it back while Banshees and Nomads can't it's range doesn't matter as much. Since it's so fast it can rely less on your other forces and be used more independent, get in and out of fights faster, chase down enemy flyers - Mutas are faster than Vikings and Corrupters so they can escape them but can't do this as easily when fighting Pheonixes. I think Banshees and definitely Nomads are slower than Phoenixes. I think that Phoenixes are easier to use against ground units but it depends on target if they do this better than Vikings. IMO Corruptor is the worst in comparison to Viking and Phoenix - the only unit they are really good and used against frequently is Colossus. Corruptors aren't specialized against anything else. They deflect Phoenixes but the only thing Protoss player has to do is to avoid them - keeping Mutas away and/or in lower numbers once Zerg gets more Corruptors instead of Mutas should buy Protoss enough time to prepare better AA, for example get Blink and Storm. We don't know if Carriers are viable enough in the PvZ late game; BCs may end not being viable at all in any other mu than TvT. Corruptors have range and DPS about the same and Hydras, aren't noticeably faster (especially counting in +30% speed creep gives Hydras) and are much more expensive. If the other player can keep Hydras away but doesn't have enough AA it's probably better to get more Mutas in most cases anyway. Not all though, since they morph into Broodlords but that's still limited use? The math that really interests me is how good are Void Rays against Corruptors and Vikings, treating fully charged and/or speed upgraded Rays as sort of defferent cases. I wonder if Protoss players will keep Warp Prisms with their Void Rays to warp in some units or buildings Rays can use to charge their beams before getting into fight. Whats a nomad? a Raven? As for my math, that was an example of units if they only had that armor type, and in reality yes units can have multiple(armored, massive, or a combination) thereby increasing the uses of viking/corruptors, but this still leaves the phoenix only useful vs muta(and getting phoenix's is pretty far out of the way(150/150 for a building to produce 4-6 150/100 units that will be used to counter 4-6 100/100 units for a building zerg ARE just going to use later for corruptor/broodlord combo's whereas your stargate is fairly worthless after stopping the initial muta harass and totally unable to counter the zerg corruptors).
Yes, I meant Raven, sorry.
I don't think it's only 4-6 Mutas that cause problems big enough for Protoss for it to be mentioned even in interviews with high ranked Koreans that Waxangel translated.
If Zerg makes Corruptors for the sole reason of countering Phoenixes than Phoenixes role is already fulfilled IMO. Just look at BW ZvT - Mutas aren't really meant to deal damage themselves, most of damage is done when Terran makes Turrets; here Zerg makes Corruptors.
Does it mean those Corruptors need to be engaged with Phoenixes?
As for phoenix to counter banshee's well the phoenix have to BEAT the vikings first and that generally won't happen unless the terran is bad.
I think that always keeping Vikings with your Banshees just to deflect Phoenixes works in similar way here. It means either less Banshees for the same resources or quite heavy commiting into air units which means that whatever ground forces Terran has, they are significantly weaker.
TBH I wonder how much stronger Vikings are than Phoenixes or are they even stronger?
According to a chart from this thread Phoenixes deal ~9DPS while Vikings 10 (without bonus) but Phoenixes have almost 50% more health and are fast enough to allow Vikings get only 1-2 free hits before they fly in range.
If Terran starts with Banshees and then makes Vikings to escort them and Protoss scouts that Banshees fast enough he can get enough Phoenixes (quite fast thanks to Chrono Boost) to make those Vikings not matter that much and that's only if Terran doesn't lose too many Banshhes during that period and wants to stick to air even though he can't get even close enough.
If Terran starts from making Vikings (against Colossi for example) and then decides to throw some Banshees then yea no point in Stargate if Stalkers (with Blink) can be warped in.
As for Corrupters they are actually pretty good imo, their 2 armor makes them great vs muta and they work well vs BC/carriers(2 armor once again very helpful). Overall i find carriers to be garbage as they die to easily to corruptors/vikings/BC since there is no viable AA support for toss AND there is no real transition possible to them. They also dominate phoenix's and are viable vs vikings. The range issues make them(6 vs col 9) not ideal against colossus(use broodlords instead as they can range colossus and stay in the back of your army as well), but they're decent. BY FAR the best thing about them is their natural transition into broodlords, thus making them 10x more viable then phoenix's already as they're a PERFECT natural transition and you will always have AA( for against vikings/phoenixs) for your flying juggernauts.
And "better" AA is just so subjective as toss AA is simply so bad. I mean sure blinking stalkers are great to deal with air units, but the cost(of stalkers lost) to kill a single broodlord ratio is just ridic for stalker usage and storming them can be pretty hard with broodlings spawning and roach ground support, LET ALONE if they take a full storm its not even 1/3 of a broodlords life......
As for voidrays, I've used them against colossus and zerg, but they really really get reamed by ANY(air or ground) anti-air unit that focus them and for 250/150, 3 supply, AND the lack of transitionable units its simply to expensive to make for anything but a cheese build. I mean unless you plan to cheese a zerg with voidrays then transition to a mothership rush(aka super cheesing it).
Void Rays are the counter to Broodlords and reason this Stargate made initially to make Phoenixes is more useful later.
As of now (fresh patch #9) when charged they deal nearly the same damage as Immortals for only 50 gas and 5 seconds to produce more. Like I wrote, Rays not charged and Rays charged are almost separate cases and there are easy ways to make them charged before battles, all you need to know is when attack is coming.
With more health and DPS of 25 against armored they should fare pretty well against Corruptors with DPS of ~11,5 and each Broodlord you make is 1 Corruptor less and less resurces to make another one - basically 1 Broodlord is as expensive as 2 Corruptors, which makes Void Rays even more viable.
If there are possible transitions into Carriers then Rays also gain from this because they have speed upgrade at Fleet Beacon and they are really fast after getting it which makes kiting every AA Zerg has possible... well except Queens and Infestor's Fungal Growth.
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Proper phoenix use:
- do not build a stargate
- build a bunch of robo units
- steamroll opponent
- if he doesn't leave => build (a) phoenix(es) to humilate him
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On April 23 2010 11:21 ggrrg wrote:
Proper phoenix use:
- do not build a stargate
- build a bunch of robo units
- steamroll opponent
- if he doesn't leave => build (a) phoenix(es) to humilate him
What if opponent opens with or masses units Phoenixes counter? You just gg? Turtle and then gg?
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On April 23 2010 11:28 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 11:21 ggrrg wrote:
Proper phoenix use:
- do not build a stargate
- build a bunch of robo units
- steamroll opponent
- if he doesn't leave => build (a) phoenix(es) to humilate him What if opponent opens with or masses units Phoenixes counter? You just gg? Turtle and then gg?
Phoenix counters uh.. 1 unit, the muta, by design. And you can take care of those without it (though i'll admit i use phoenix on a regular basis v. Zerg). Hence why most people avoid the stargate.
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On April 23 2010 12:06 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 11:28 beetlelisk wrote:On April 23 2010 11:21 ggrrg wrote:
Proper phoenix use:
- do not build a stargate
- build a bunch of robo units
- steamroll opponent
- if he doesn't leave => build (a) phoenix(es) to humilate him What if opponent opens with or masses units Phoenixes counter? You just gg? Turtle and then gg? Phoenix counters uh.. 1 unit, the muta, by design. And you can take care of those without it (though i'll admit i use phoenix on a regular basis v. Zerg). Hence why most people avoid the stargate.
I was trying to be a little sarcastic. What about Banshees though? and it doesn't have to be rush but transitioning from Marauders also?
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phenixes can kill everything, the question is: "is it worth the energyy to lift this ground unit into a helpless state where he is easy pickings?
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well.... a queen certainly is.
needs more than one lift to kill it with 3 phoenixes though.
any lifted&killed worker is a bonus.
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As far as attack speeds go I believe phoenix has a 1 sec attack rate, and viking 1.9. That's not a small difference at all.
Bottom line, phoenix beat vikings in near equal numbers. What makes the viking so good is its terrific range makes it a great support vessel, because it can hover over marines and get their protection while still shooting down enemy ships.
And the ability to transfer the viking is generally superior to the phoenix's grav beam.
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I've tried this strategy and its worked about 8/9 times:
I make a narrow choke on ramp 1-zealot wide
12-Gate
Assimilator
16-Zealot
Pylon
Assimilator
Forge/Cybernetics Core
Cannon
Stargate (hidden away from overlord in my base somewhere)
Stargate
Then I just chrono boost 4 phoenixes, all while slowly building up a small zealot count with extra minerals. Once I have 4 phoenixes I move to zerg's base go straight for the queen and Overlords.
I build maybe 1-2 more phoenixes tops, and then plop down 2 robo-bays and switch to Collossi, and chrono boost the thermal lance. It usually times well to where my collossi come out when the zerg player has finally recovered enough to get hydralisks out.
The only thing that has defeated this build so far was a big roach push at my door. They almost always switch to hydras, and you still have your phoenixes around if they tech-switch again to mutas to counter your collossi.
____
Another really really fun thing I did was 2-gate a zerg player. I took out his expo, but he held off the rest of the rush. I tech switched to double-stargate phoenixes. I did a good little timing attack with 7+ zealots and about 4 phoenixes to re-kill the queens.
The guy congratulated me for being legitimately creative.
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Phoenix is pretty good vs toss robo users. When lifting his immortal you will push his army back leaving the single immortal floating in air or just keep lifting it while you win the battle on ground. If he switches to collosus you still have the correct counter as they work pretty well vs collosus as well. But doesn't change the fact that toss only way of playing well is to react upon the opponents move and counter that.
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Did some testing with the Map Editor with Phoenixes vs Mutas and the numbers are rather interesting. Unfortunately I couldn't get FF on both sides, since I'm not sure how to give the computer orders at the moment.
When I was focus-firing with the Mutas, I was following the path of whichever one was getting the bounces.
5 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 5 Mutas live (1 barely)
6 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield)
7 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 6 Phoenixes live, with a couple at half health.
5 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 6 Mutas live, with a couple at half health
6 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield)
7 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 3 Phoenixes live, with one at half health.
5 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 4 Mutas live
6 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield)
7 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 4 Phoenixes live, with one at half health
Seems like there isn't a MASSIVE difference in Phoenix focus-fire, until you hit the magic number of 7 Phoenixes, where they instagib Mutalisks in the first couple of volleys. With less of them focus-firing it seemed like an absolute shit-load of shots were being wasted, like it was hurting more than it was helping.
Also, that having just ONE more Phoenix over the 1:2 ratio makes an absolutely godamned enormous difference.
Food for thought.
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On April 24 2010 14:59 Bibdy wrote:
Did some testing with the Map Editor with Phoenixes vs Mutas and the numbers are rather interesting. Unfortunately I couldn't get FF on both sides, since I'm not sure how to give the computer orders at the moment.
When I was focus-firing with the Mutas, I was following the path of whichever one was getting the bounces.
5 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 5 Mutas live (1 barely)
6 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield)
7 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 6 Phoenixes live, with a couple at half health.
5 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 6 Mutas live, with a couple at half health
6 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield)
7 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 3 Phoenixes live, with one at half health.
5 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 4 Mutas live
6 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield)
7 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 4 Phoenixes live, with one at half health
Seems like there isn't a MASSIVE difference in Phoenix focus-fire, until you hit the magic number of 7 Phoenixes, where they instagib Mutalisks in the first couple of volleys. With less of them focus-firing it seemed like an absolute shit-load of shots were being wasted, like it was hurting more than it was helping.
Also, that having just ONE more Phoenix over the 1:2 ratio makes an absolutely godamned enormous difference.
Food for thought.
nice, but in game, warping in 7 phoenixes takes a huuuge amount of time, while Z can just pop up so many of them at once
I used phoenixes in a 2v2 matchup where my tp was Z, so I just used graviton beam if his mutas were threatened by any ground units (besides thors)
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Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried lifting up an infestor when it is neural parasiting something? Does it break the neural parasite?
Probably not that useful but would be interesting to find out.
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On April 24 2010 15:33 virusak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2010 14:59 Bibdy wrote:
Did some testing with the Map Editor with Phoenixes vs Mutas and the numbers are rather interesting. Unfortunately I couldn't get FF on both sides, since I'm not sure how to give the computer orders at the moment.
When I was focus-firing with the Mutas, I was following the path of whichever one was getting the bounces.
5 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 5 Mutas live (1 barely)
6 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield)
7 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 6 Phoenixes live, with a couple at half health.
5 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 6 Mutas live, with a couple at half health
6 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield)
7 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 3 Phoenixes live, with one at half health.
5 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 4 Mutas live
6 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield)
7 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 4 Phoenixes live, with one at half health
Seems like there isn't a MASSIVE difference in Phoenix focus-fire, until you hit the magic number of 7 Phoenixes, where they instagib Mutalisks in the first couple of volleys. With less of them focus-firing it seemed like an absolute shit-load of shots were being wasted, like it was hurting more than it was helping.
Also, that having just ONE more Phoenix over the 1:2 ratio makes an absolutely godamned enormous difference.
Food for thought. nice, but in game, warping in 7 phoenixes takes a huuuge amount of time, while Z can just pop up so many of them at once I used phoenixes in a 2v2 matchup where my tp was Z, so I just used graviton beam if his mutas were threatened by any ground units (besides thors)
Indeed. That's why if you're going to get Phoenixes, you usually have to commit to a double-Stargate and pump them full of Chrono Boosts, slowly reach that 3:5 ratio, then finally charge the Phoenixes head-first at the guy, only to end up with 1 Phoenix left.
Such a horrible, horrible unit.
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On April 20 2010 02:42 Chill wrote:
I think a few phoenixes are really nice to isolate his special support units (tanks, immortals). If your opponent is using basic units (mm or gateway units) your phoenixes are going to be useless. Unfortunately I usually feel like I just need to gamble and hope he plays into my hands.
Even if he goes gateway units, you can still pick up and snipe them. 3 phoenixes will rape occasional zeal or sentry.
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On April 24 2010 15:35 Triik wrote:
Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried lifting up an infestor when it is neural parasiting something? Does it break the neural parasite?
Probably not that useful but would be interesting to find out.
I've lifted infestors to pre-empt parasite, but i haven't noticed if it broke the ability (i always seem to pick them up before they cast it).
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On April 24 2010 15:33 virusak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2010 14:59 Bibdy wrote:
Did some testing with the Map Editor with Phoenixes vs Mutas and the numbers are rather interesting. Unfortunately I couldn't get FF on both sides, since I'm not sure how to give the computer orders at the moment.
When I was focus-firing with the Mutas, I was following the path of whichever one was getting the bounces.
5 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 5 Mutas live (1 barely)
6 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield)
7 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 6 Phoenixes live, with a couple at half health.
5 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 6 Mutas live, with a couple at half health
6 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield)
7 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 3 Phoenixes live, with one at half health.
5 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 4 Mutas live
6 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield)
7 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 4 Phoenixes live, with one at half health
Seems like there isn't a MASSIVE difference in Phoenix focus-fire, until you hit the magic number of 7 Phoenixes, where they instagib Mutalisks in the first couple of volleys. With less of them focus-firing it seemed like an absolute shit-load of shots were being wasted, like it was hurting more than it was helping.
Also, that having just ONE more Phoenix over the 1:2 ratio makes an absolutely godamned enormous difference.
Food for thought. nice, but in game, warping in 7 phoenixes takes a huuuge amount of time, while Z can just pop up so many of them at once I used phoenixes in a 2v2 matchup where my tp was Z, so I just used graviton beam if his mutas were threatened by any ground units (besides thors)
Yeah but if you focus on getting phoenix's as part of your build you have 4-5 phoenixes before they get any mutas. The reason a build like 2 gate & 2 stargate works very well is that you can produce phoenix's quite well. The nice part is you have a decent ground force supported by super fast phoenix. Your initial attack will get a queen or two, tons of overlords etc. The phoenix in large numbers is actually very nice vs roaches before he has hydras.
On the initial transition zerg makes to hydra the phoenix is still powerful. With 5 phoenix 1 lift and the other 4 will one shot a hydra. So in before he gets a large # of hydra you can get in and focus them out of his army.
Usually I ignore workers and save my lifts for killing off his roaches. Once i've used up my energy getting his roaches i push my ground force in facing much more favorable odds. I had a lot more issues when I went solo stargate though so if using phoenix's don't be shy about it and commit.
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On April 24 2010 18:20 Taco-Mental wrote:
I had a lot more issues when I went solo stargate though so if using phoenix's don't be shy about it and commit.
Really? I've found it a lot easier to just get 4 from one gate -> harass, and immidiately tech swap to counter hydras (usually colossus). Second stargate seems pretty wasteful. I drop a second if he has mutas building, or has decided not to get hydras (very rare though).
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On April 24 2010 18:59 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2010 18:20 Taco-Mental wrote:
I had a lot more issues when I went solo stargate though so if using phoenix's don't be shy about it and commit. Really? I've found it a lot easier to just get 4 from one gate -> harass, and immidiately tech swap to counter hydras (usually colossus). Second stargate seems pretty wasteful. I drop a second if he has mutas building, or has decided not to get hydras (very rare though).
wow, thats quite a ,long swicht, from 1sg to robo facility and bay
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On April 24 2010 15:35 Triik wrote:
Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried lifting up an infestor when it is neural parasiting something? Does it break the neural parasite?
Probably not that useful but would be interesting to find out.
I want to know this as well. Will test it in the galaxy editor when I get home but would love it if someone answered it now 
Pretty sure it does break neural parasite.
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The answer to Phoenixes is just more Mutas, or a tech switch, or whatever you want, because Phoenixes suck. Same with Void Rays. According to Browder, the design philosophy is to make GtG like Marauder/Immortal/Roach obscene so air is overpowered against the overpowered, but Toss air cannot be massed. So let's look at the races' AtG. Banshees are amazing AtG and fast and cloaked. Mutalisks are also solid and are great map control and harass. And then you have Void Rays; they kill Lairs... good if your opponent doesn't have air def, that's about it.
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I found adding some Void Rays to my PvT blob a good idea, at least against mass Marauders. The fight where I realized this kind of went like this:
He was spamming Marauders from 4 Tech Labbed Rax, I made Immortals to supplement my Gateway collection.
He got a Ghost to counter that, I got HTs to counter that.
I got Void Rays since he had like no Marines, he got a handful of Marines and some Vikings.
When the big fight started, he got one EMP off before I feedbacked both of his Ghosts, which only hit a small number of my Stalkers, Immortals and Zealots. After that my Psi Storms ripped the Vikings and Marines to shreds long before they could kill the Void Rays. He was now completely defenseless against my Void Rays and even though he pretty much ripped the bulk of my ground army a new one and ended up with a gigantic wad of incredibly low-health stimmed Marauders, my Void Rays mopped up easily and then quickly flew to his base, and dealt a shitload of damage, while he was desperately trying to spam Marines out of his Tech-Labbed Rax to counter it. Meanwhile I just rebuilt my Gateway and Immortal army and steamrolled in.
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I'm curious why everyone seems to assume that if you build a Stargate you have rely exclusively on Phoenix to counter mutas. In BW players rarely if ever built enough Corsairs to singlehandedly stop a dedicated muta build. Instead, the strategy was this:
1. Get a Stargate early so that you have a good start if Mutas arrive. This is workable because, if Mutalisks aren't built, Corsairs can be used for scouting and to harass Overlords.
2. If Mutas are the tech of choice, bring your Corsairs back to camp over your Nexus and use them in combination with 2-3 cannons per base and a ground army (Archons) to minimize damage from the harass.
3. Use extra minerals that aren't required for Cannons to build up a ground army of Zealots.
4. Once you have a good sized ground army including Zealots and GtA units, push out and win.
Now, we don't have the super-strong BW Archon anymore in SC2, but we do have Sentry, which is a similarly gas-heavy counter unit to Mutas.
It seems to me that if Phoenix is going to be used as a counter to Mutalisk it will be used along the lines I outline above. People who are expecting to be able to start their Stargate(s) after Mutalisks appear, pump only Phoenixes to counter the Mutalisks, and then counterattack using the Phoenixes as a primary offensive unit are never going to get anywhere, would be my guess.
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On April 25 2010 00:32 puckthecat wrote:
I'm curious why everyone seems to assume that if you build a Stargate you have rely exclusively on Phoenix to counter mutas. In BW players rarely if ever built enough Corsairs to singlehandedly stop a dedicated muta build. Instead, the strategy was this:
1. Get a Stargate early so that you have a good start if Mutas arrive. This is workable because, if Mutalisks aren't built, Corsairs can be used for scouting and to harass Overlords.
2. If Mutas are the tech of choice, bring your Corsairs back to camp over your Nexus and use them in combination with 2-3 cannons per base and a ground army (Archons) to minimize damage from the harass.
3. Use extra minerals that aren't required for Cannons to build up a ground army of Zealots.
4. Once you have a good sized ground army including Zealots and GtA units, push out and win.
Now, we don't have the super-strong BW Archon anymore in SC2, but we do have Sentry, which is a similarly gas-heavy counter unit to Mutas.
It seems to me that if Phoenix is going to be used as a counter to Mutalisk it will be used along the lines I outline above. People who are expecting to be able to start their Stargate(s) after Mutalisks appear, pump only Phoenixes to counter the Mutalisks, and then counterattack using the Phoenixes as a primary offensive unit are never going to get anywhere, would be my guess.
I don't like being blind to a Zerg's tech switches, and all of the other viable opening builds they can throw at you. I like getting an early Observer, Warp Gate tech, 3 Gates and a Robo fac, so I'm pretty much ready for any possible ground army, then building the Stargate if I spot the Spire (if I pick Phoenixes. I usually go Stalker/Sentry with disasterous results against a good Zerg player).
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An early Observer won't come out significantly (any?) faster than an early Phoenix, right? Both of them give you a complete scout at about the same time.
Of course, you are right that getting a Stargate early and more-or-less blindly, as was done in BW, means you won't have a Robotics Facility as early. The choice of which to get first is simply a matter of balancing of risks between Hydra/Roach and Mutalisk. You have to get either Robo or Stargate to get a good scout on Zerg (Hallucination is too late, seems to me, because it's stuck behind Warpgate tech). If you go Robo, you will be better prepared for ground assault, and will have to be ready to hold off Mutalisk without a specialized counter. If you go Stargate, you will be better prepared for Mutas and will have to delay the ground game until you can get appropriate tech to deal with Hydra/Roach.
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I guess its easier to hold off Roaches/Hydras/Speedlings/Banelings with Force Field than it is Mutas without Phoenixes. Might give this a shot sometime.
Its just insanely hard to figure out when is a good time to expand and apply pressure, without sitting there watching him macro up the whole map
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On April 24 2010 14:59 Bibdy wrote:
Did some testing with the Map Editor with Phoenixes vs Mutas and the numbers are rather interesting. Unfortunately I couldn't get FF on both sides, since I'm not sure how to give the computer orders at the moment.
When I was focus-firing with the Mutas, I was following the path of whichever one was getting the bounces.
5 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 5 Mutas live (1 barely)
6 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield)
7 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 6 Phoenixes live, with a couple at half health.
5 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 6 Mutas live, with a couple at half health
6 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield)
7 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 3 Phoenixes live, with one at half health.
5 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 4 Mutas live
6 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield)
7 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 4 Phoenixes live, with one at half health
Seems like there isn't a MASSIVE difference in Phoenix focus-fire, until you hit the magic number of 7 Phoenixes, where they instagib Mutalisks in the first couple of volleys. With less of them focus-firing it seemed like an absolute shit-load of shots were being wasted, like it was hurting more than it was helping.
Also, that having just ONE more Phoenix over the 1:2 ratio makes an absolutely godamned enormous difference.
Food for thought.
I'm not going to argue whether the Phoenix is good or bad. It's interesting, but that's as far as I'll go with opinions.
I'm quoting this post since it shows how micro comes into play. The reason 7 is the magic number is that it takes 7 Phoenix to one shot a Mutalisk (Mutalisk = 120 HP + 1 point of automatic healing upon taking damage). They'll kill rather quickly at that point. Proper micro in a straight up fight at 5-6 Phoenix would involve splitting them into separate control groups (4 and 1, or 4 and 2) and focus firing each group separately. Why? If it takes 7 to one-shot, then it takes 4 to two-shot. Two Phoenix will four shot. Basically, if you focus fire both group separately, you'll have 3 Mutalisks dead for every 4 attack Volleys. If you have 5-6 focus firing together, it'll take 6 shots to kill 3 Mutalisks. Four and Seven are the magic numbers (per control group) for fighting Mutalisks. (Note: It's 4 and 6 for Hydralisks, since it takes 5 volleys to kill a Hydra.)
However, I'd also like to note that Phoenix should be capable of kiting Mutalisks. The one and only time I witnessed it (I admit that Phoenix are a rare occurrence), I was surprised. However, with +1 range over the Mutalisk and a slightly higher movement speed, it turns out it's possible. With proper micro, "more mutalisks" shouldn't be a counter to Phoenix.
Cheers.
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If you think phoenixes suck, go watch Nony's stream right now.
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^ This.
Nony is killing it with fast pheonixes in PvP right now. Unstoppable.
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He's owning even harder in PvT.
To be fair, I think this is mostly due to his awesome mechanics and the surprise factor. were this a common strat it would be countered easily.
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After watching nony's stream for a while today... phoenix = gg
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Where do you find these streams at?
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On April 25 2010 03:37 Raislin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2010 14:59 Bibdy wrote:
Did some testing with the Map Editor with Phoenixes vs Mutas and the numbers are rather interesting. Unfortunately I couldn't get FF on both sides, since I'm not sure how to give the computer orders at the moment.
When I was focus-firing with the Mutas, I was following the path of whichever one was getting the bounces.
5 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 5 Mutas live (1 barely)
6 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield)
7 Focus-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 6 Phoenixes live, with a couple at half health.
5 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 6 Mutas live, with a couple at half health
6 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield)
7 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Focus-Firing Mutas: 3 Phoenixes live, with one at half health.
5 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 4 Mutas live
6 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 1 Phoenix lives at 50% health (0 shield)
7 Blind-Firing Phoenixes vs 10 Blind-Firing Mutas: 4 Phoenixes live, with one at half health
Seems like there isn't a MASSIVE difference in Phoenix focus-fire, until you hit the magic number of 7 Phoenixes, where they instagib Mutalisks in the first couple of volleys. With less of them focus-firing it seemed like an absolute shit-load of shots were being wasted, like it was hurting more than it was helping.
Also, that having just ONE more Phoenix over the 1:2 ratio makes an absolutely godamned enormous difference.
Food for thought. However, I'd also like to note that Phoenix should be capable of kiting Mutalisks. The one and only time I witnessed it (I admit that Phoenix are a rare occurrence), I was surprised. However, with +1 range over the Mutalisk and a slightly higher movement speed, it turns out it's possible. With proper micro, "more mutalisks" shouldn't be a counter to Phoenix. Cheers.
Ehh, I just tried this, on just Fast speed, using the same test above and its reaaaally hard to make use of that difference of 1 range.
Phoenixes have an acceleration of 3.25, max speed of 4.25 and range of 4
Mutalisks have an acceleration of 3.25, max speed of 3.75 and range of 3
You have to be a dang super human to make the most of that minor differential, I think.
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Everyone is complaining about the phoenix, but it will completely annihilate mutas for cost, especially if you invest in +1 for it. The key is to just not overbuild when the zerg switches tech. But for some examples:
8 phoenix will kill 12 mutas with 3-5 phoenix remaing depending on whether both players focus fire or not. If the zerg foxus fires, and phoenixes just a-move, there will be 3 damaged phoenixes left once all the mutas go down.
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On April 25 2010 06:13 phexac wrote:
Everyone is complaining about the phoenix, but it will completely annihilate mutas for cost, especially if you invest in +1 for it. The key is to just not overbuild when the zerg switches tech. But for some examples:
8 phoenix will kill 12 mutas with 3-5 phoenix remaing depending on whether both players focus fire or not. If the zerg foxus fires, and phoenixes just a-move, there will be 3 damaged phoenixes left once all the mutas go down.
Its not its combat ability that's the problem. Its your ability to field them in reaction to a Mutalisk or Banshee threat and how well you can react to the tech switch to ground afterwards.
Its more a meta-game problem than a stats problem.
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I frequently use phoenixes in PvZ. I start with a one gate build and sometimes forge right after depending on the map and the pool speed.
Zerg almost always expands and gets 12-14 lings versus my seeming slow/defensive play. One gate constant pumping lots gets enough to move out with 5-6 lots a little after the expo gets put down. Just use a probe first to make sure that he does not have 24 speed lings waiting to surround and massacre your 5-6 lots.
Z backs off and you distract him. Your first phoenix builds around now. I normally chrono my first 3 phoenixes. OL hunt and wait for 3 to build. I then move in and harass OLs/queen. I then build 1-2 more phoenixes.
Contrary to most of the advice so far, I do kill drones. Kill the queen in one lift (sometimes 2) and then kill 3-5 drones. I can often kill 4-5 drones. That seems like a big deal since Z has been heavily invested in lings prior and was just starting to drone pump with the expo going up.
I normally have DTs coming out shortly after this point. The main usually has a spore in it by now, but the expo migth be fair game for a drone or two. I expand and get a few cannons.
Mid-game unit composition is reliant upon Z's response to the phoenixes. I do not see people going mass mutt because they don't have the econ already built up in this situation. We are 2 bases vs 2 and I have far far more workers.
Again, this is not just a blind strat. I only end up doing this general build if I do see heavy ling investment. Granted, I try to encourage heavy ling investment.
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I've found that phoenixes leave enough gas to tech to templar. First DTs to expand, and then HTs for the ending push. Man these are fun experiments
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On April 25 2010 05:30 Bibdy wrote:
Ehh, I just tried this, on just Fast speed, using the same test above and its reaaaally hard to make use of that difference of 1 range.
Phoenixes have an acceleration of 3.25, max speed of 4.25 and range of 4
Mutalisks have an acceleration of 3.25, max speed of 3.75 and range of 3
You have to be a dang super human to make the most of that minor differential, I think.
I certainly don't think you need to be super human, and you're not going to do it without taking hits. However, due to the lack of stacking, you are likely to get most or all of your attacks while reducing the number of hits you take yourself.
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On April 25 2010 07:08 rackdude wrote:I've found that phoenixes leave enough gas to tech to templar. First DTs to expand, and then HTs for the ending push. Man these are fun experiments
Yea, I like how phoenixes complement DTs and then allow an easy tech to templars.
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nony just proved that this can work, if u didn't get busted down before u've hoard up enough phoenix, ur ground army will be lacking...
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The problem i see with phoenix is that you can only kill some ovies if the zerg is any good, also roach bust will hurt you a lot because of the lack of immortals and 2 queen can deal pretty good vs 4 phoenix.
So i think void ray is much better beacuse you can maybe kill a hatch, if not you can kill a queen, you can still kill overlords, and defend from roach burst. If they go muta you can make phoenix after your 1st void ray.
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NonY just owned mOOnglade with heavy phoenix use (PvZ) in HDH Ro16.. quite epic to watch... Taking out tons of overlords then picking up all his natural's drones
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I find a straight phoenix rush on 4 phoenix dominates P and Z. I'll work on getting some replays up, I've only been doing placement matches (against golds/one plat) but it seems to really screw with them seeing phoenix lift their drones and snipe them as fast as they do (while catching ovies on the way).
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Wouldn't that just die to a 2-gate? I think if phoenix use really picks up in PvP people are going to be all-ining a lot more.
I honestly really like the phoenix build, but I don't think it's the optimal build in every match-up even though Nony makes it look like it is Against Zerg phoenixes are just good all-around since you have the mobility to clamp down on their fast expands while making them pay for undefended overlords. But against Protoss I feel like a few cannons in the mineral line can control phoenix harass while the Protoss goes for colossi and a (blink) stalker heavy army (and colossi are not taken down *that* fast by phoenixes). A well-executed 2-gate might also make it very hard to defend while you're teching up.
Haven't made up my mind about Terran, yet.
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The Nony show was amazing with those pheonix
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one difficulty with phoenix in mirror is holding off a 4gate attack. (I learned that from day9 today)
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NonY posted a large replay pack where alot of the games he went phoenix. I started trying them out myself, but clearly my execution is not nearly as good (mid-level plat).
Against T, I find them ridiculously imba if the terran goes marauders and tanks. The phoenix effectively render the tanks useless. However, I have alot of trouble when he goes MM&G and pushes out as soon as the first couple ghosts show up. My ground army if far inferior at this point, therefore I'm forced to use the phoenix to attempt to even things out. NonY makes it look so easy, but I haven't had much luck myself. If I miss levitating a ghost, it is pretty much GG. One EMP and my already weak ground army is basically dead.
On the other hand, I am so sick of going robo every time and plan to just keep banging away at the phoenix build. It's beta after all.
Edit: Now that I think about it, I don't think I've seen a NonY game where the terran makes a timing push with ghosts. The couple terran games I saw that he didn't cheese, they went either MMM or MM with tanks - no ghosts.
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On April 26 2010 12:31 itzbrandnew wrote:
I find a straight phoenix rush on 4 phoenix dominates P and Z. I'll work on getting some replays up, I've only been doing placement matches (against golds/one plat) but it seems to really screw with them seeing phoenix lift their drones and snipe them as fast as they do (while catching ovies on the way). Phoenix rush will lose vs any kind of fast roaches. They do almost no damage to them, it takes 4 phoenix two years just to kill one roach, while your entire base is getting destroyed.
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Phoenix rush will lose vs any kind of fast roaches.
Although, if you have up a Stargate you can boost out a Void Ray in pretty short order. If you have any kind of advance warning of a fast Roach attack, you should be able to hold it off with a small base defense force + Void Ray.
Now, if they have Hydralisks as well as Roaches, that's a different story. But that requires Lair tech and should come a good bit later than a pure fast Roach attack.
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Why are we worrying about fast roaches vs. phoenix anyway? If you scout it, nobody is forcing you to build a stargate...
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On April 26 2010 23:05 shiftY803 wrote:
Why are we worrying about fast roaches vs. phoenix anyway? If you scout it, nobody is forcing you to build a stargate...
well even then, a few well placed cannons + a few immos can take quite a bit of roaches
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I'm wondering if it's viable to have only gateways and stargates production vs. Terran. Sentries/zels should we able to hold off an early mm with some stalkers and charge later on. As been said multiple times, phoenix can lift ghosts. If they go heavy maurader, punish their scvs. Transition mid-late with templar/storm if heavy bio.
Phoenix works great against mech and banshee rush too. Can scout those facs/starports, lift tanks vs mech and air vs banshees is always win. If they go all air, just warp a few stalkers and you're set vs heavy terran air.
Gas intensive, but I find it hard to use up all that gas with 2 assimilator running. There's not too many early game harass options with toss - it would be great if this works. Gonna give it a try and see what happens :D
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On April 26 2010 23:05 shiftY803 wrote:
Why are we worrying about fast roaches vs. phoenix anyway? If you scout it, nobody is forcing you to build a stargate...
That's a tough thing to accurately scout though. More often than not you'll be making an educated guess wether or not the zerg is going fast roaches from his FE, speedling into muta (best for the phoenix open), or slow macro roach hydra. Most Z keep 4-8 lings either at the P base to keep scout probes from coming out, or (more often) near to their own ramp to disallow probes in their base once they leave.
Of-course hallucination scout will be the mandatory thing to check, but getting that after warpgates means it's coming out just a bit too late to see fast roach before you drop stargates. In Nony v. Moonglade, moon didn't commit at all to the early game in terms of agression, he spent a TON of resources on spine crawlers, and he went even further throwing down his third expo quite early. Combined with the really non-existent ovie fly-by scouting on his main, moon really gave Nony the best possible open to hit with two stargate phoenix.
I think the stargate open will probably become default for PvZ, given it's one of the best ways to really regain a measure of map control and chip away at Z's early-mid game strength. That being said, we'll have to see a bit of flexibility, possibly faster forge play, to answer the early roach agression and get the vita first expansion off (that allows for phoenix production and a tech swap to something that answers Z's imminent switch to hydras.
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Could have been a bit of metagaming on NonY's part. I saw another couple MoonGlade replays where he went overboard on spine crawlers.
I'll have to experiment more and see how things go for me. I've been doing the two-gate/one-stargate builds myself. Probably alot safer if they decide to hit you with roaches.
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Does anyone know if gravitron beam interrupts an infestor's mind control?
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On April 26 2010 23:56 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 23:05 shiftY803 wrote:
Why are we worrying about fast roaches vs. phoenix anyway? If you scout it, nobody is forcing you to build a stargate... That's a tough thing to accurately scout though. More often than not you'll be making an educated guess wether or not the zerg is going fast roaches from his FE, speedling into muta (best for the phoenix open), or slow macro roach hydra. Most Z keep 4-8 lings either at the P base to keep scout probes from coming out, or (more often) near to their own ramp to disallow probes in their base once they leave. Of-course hallucination scout will be the mandatory thing to check, but getting that after warpgates means it's coming out just a bit too late to see fast roach before you drop stargates. In Nony v. Moonglade, moon didn't commit at all to the early game in terms of agression, he spent a TON of resources on spine crawlers, and he went even further throwing down his third expo quite early. Combined with the really non-existent ovie fly-by scouting on his main, moon really gave Nony the best possible open to hit with two stargate phoenix. I think the stargate open will probably become default for PvZ, given it's one of the best ways to really regain a measure of map control and chip away at Z's early-mid game strength. That being said, we'll have to see a bit of flexibility, possibly faster forge play, to answer the early roach agression and get the vita first expansion off (that allows for phoenix production and a tech swap to something that answers Z's imminent switch to hydras.
Thing is, Nony didn't even go phoenixes the second game vs. Moonglade. He just straight up busted Moonglade's spine crawler defense with (2?) warp gates. I don't think he went mass phoenixes first game until he scouted the Spire, so his build is obviously flexible enough to deal with both early aggression and turtle transition to Mutas (which gives many Protoss a lot of trouble). I think if Nony scouted Moonglade pumping roaches, he would've put down a robo asap and added a gateway or two. Or maybe a forge & some cannons.
Either way, getting a few phoenixes isn't bad against roach openings either so long as you can defend your choke/ramp. With mass roaches the Zerg won't have the AA necessary to prevent phoenixes from wrecking havoc in his base and he'll be forced to either all-in or quickly tech up to hydras. This is the situation the Protoss wants to be in as it allows him to dictate how the game plays out - ie, if the Zerg all-ins, the Protoss just has to hold it off at his choke, and if the Zerg techs to hydras, the Protoss has the luxury to tech to Colossi without worrying about mutas.
Corrupters will pose a huge threat to phoenixes late-game, though, so I expect that blink stalkers or void rays are still necessary to counter Brood Lords.
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On April 26 2010 23:05 shiftY803 wrote:
Why are we worrying about fast roaches vs. phoenix anyway? If you scout it, nobody is forcing you to build a stargate...
Ehh. In my experience, trying to send suicidal Probes into the Zerg's base, or getting a super-fast Observer in there to find out what's up, I usually spot the Roach Warren anywhere from 50-80% completion (sometimes 100%). At which point I thank all available deitys that day that I picked the right tech path. If it was completed before I saw it, I could Chrono an Immortal and barely hold it back, but that was before the last patch. Now its a lot more scary.
Then there's the big fat jerks who realise you spotted their partially completed Roach Warren with your Probe, cancel it and get Banelings or something. Meanies.
I'll always prefer a super-fast observer because of that.
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On April 26 2010 23:05 shiftY803 wrote:
Why are we worrying about fast roaches vs. phoenix anyway? If you scout it, nobody is forcing you to build a stargate...
Well, he was talking about a phoenix *rush*, where presumably you try to get them out as soon as possible. If you watch Nony's streams, you'll note that he doesn't play the phoenix strategy every game. Indeed, it gets hard-countered by mass blink stalkers in the mirror match so you *have* to know if your opponent is going mass stalkers and respond appropriately.
For this reason, among others, I don't think you should focus too heavily on rushing phoenixes out, and I don't think the take-home point is that phoenixes > all.
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On April 20 2010 17:20 NB wrote:till now i am trying to avoid the use of phoenix since i think of it as reaver corsair in BW, require too much apm and would be roll over if the enemy has a soild ground force. what i am thinking is that this unit might give us a suprise in PvP in the close future since toss anti air is not that great
Called it...nice.
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Yet another reason for ground-based Terrans to get Ghosts ... EMP the Phoenix and it becomes unable to do anything other than shooting Medivacs. Also another good reason NOT to slack at building air defenses around the worker lines.
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On April 27 2010 01:34 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 23:05 shiftY803 wrote:
Why are we worrying about fast roaches vs. phoenix anyway? If you scout it, nobody is forcing you to build a stargate... Ehh. In my experience, trying to send suicidal Probes into the Zerg's base, or getting a super-fast Observer in there to find out what's up, I usually spot the Roach Warren anywhere from 50-80% completion (sometimes 100%). At which point I thank all available deitys that day that I picked the right tech path. If it was completed before I saw it, I could Chrono an Immortal and barely hold it back, but that was before the last patch. Now its a lot more scary. Then there's the big fat jerks who realise you spotted their partially completed Roach Warren with your Probe, cancel it and get Banelings or something. Meanies. I'll always prefer a super-fast observer because of that.
Or you can just know gas timings for roaches. But suicidal probes should work or your scouting probe can usually stay alive to get a glimpse of the den. However, you still do not know if he's massing, so just run a probe up and see how many roaches shoot at him. However, with FF and the gravitation, you can pick off a large amount of the roaches before the real fight, and you can do some economic damage. I think it still puts you ahead, he will lose overlords, and he will be in the dark scouting-wise. Even if he transitions to hydras, you should be teching, expanding, and killing overlords. It puts you in a pretty good position.
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On April 27 2010 01:37 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 23:05 shiftY803 wrote:
Why are we worrying about fast roaches vs. phoenix anyway? If you scout it, nobody is forcing you to build a stargate... Well, he was talking about a phoenix *rush*, where presumably you try to get them out as soon as possible. If you watch Nony's streams, you'll note that he doesn't play the phoenix strategy every game. Indeed, it gets hard-countered by mass blink stalkers in the mirror match so you *have* to know if your opponent is going mass stalkers and respond appropriately. For this reason, among others, I don't think you should focus too heavily on rushing phoenixes out, and I don't think the take-home point is that phoenixes > all.
I don't think Nony was particularly trying to time his phoenixes more so than just see what kind of use he could get out of them in various matchups. It's hard to say where they will fit in best and what counters will be cost-effective, what transitions to make, etc. since we have only begun to see them being used well.
I agree, the moral isn't that phoenix are unstoppably good in the right hands, regardless of the opponent. That being said, we do have to consider the idea that phoenix is very flexible, and could be a staple of PvZ at the very least. I have my doubts about PvT (I like the void ray much better in that MU), but we'll see how things pan out. I'm excited that players are finally aware that protoss have air units to fear. Now they actually have to sweat a bit if they cannot find a robotics and can no longer assume it's a gateway all-in.
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8751 Posts
Some of the games on my stream and/or replay pack are really experimental so don't look at every move I make and think "NonY thinks it can work like this." It's better to look at everything objectively: when I fail, is there something I could tweak to succeed? When I succeed, is there something my opponent could tweak to stop me? Every game is up for evaluation. Some people are doing this already but others are jumping to conclusions a bit.
I think Phoenixes are generally not a good surprise strategy. Since Phoenixes are excellent scouts, the cost-benefit analysis of hiding Phoenixes is a lot different than hiding other kinds of tech/units. If you hide your Phoenixes, you are denying yourself free scouting. When you scout your opponent with the Phoenix, you get to adjust your build based on what you see of his base and army and your opponent gets to adjust his build based on seeing one Phoenix. (If you are making more Phoenixes, don't reveal the additional Phoenixes until you're going to use them.) So will you win more games by swapping information with your opponent?
I think yes. There are hard counters to the Phoenix build that need to be scouted ASAP to survive against. Even if you gain an advantage in the early game, like getting gas much faster than your opponent, they can still go for, for example, a hard Stalker Blink rush and win. But if they weren't already doing a good anti-Phoenix build, then there isn't much that they can do to adjust. In fact, as the game progresses and they've known for a while that you're going Phoenix, the Phoenix still plays an excellent part. There is never really a point when the Phoenixes can be completely nullified.
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On April 27 2010 02:29 Liquid`NonY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Some of the games on my stream and/or replay pack are really experimental so don't look at every move I make and think "NonY thinks it can work like this." It's better to look at everything objectively: when I fail, is there something I could tweak to succeed? When I succeed, is there something my opponent could tweak to stop me? Every game is up for evaluation. Some people are doing this already but others are jumping to conclusions a bit.
I think Phoenixes are generally not a good surprise strategy. Since Phoenixes are excellent scouts, the cost-benefit analysis of hiding Phoenixes is a lot different than hiding other kinds of tech/units. If you hide your Phoenixes, you are denying yourself free scouting. When you scout your opponent with the Phoenix, you get to adjust your build based on what you see of his base and army and your opponent gets to adjust his build based on seeing one Phoenix. (If you are making more Phoenixes, don't reveal the additional Phoenixes until you're going to use them.) So will you win more games by swapping information with your opponent?
I think yes. There are hard counters to the Phoenix build that need to be scouted ASAP to survive against. Even if you gain an advantage in the early game, like getting gas much faster than your opponent, they can still go for, for example, a hard Stalker Blink rush and win. But if they weren't already doing a good anti-Phoenix build, then there isn't much that they can do to adjust. In fact, as the game progresses and they've known for a while that you're going Phoenix, the Phoenix still plays an excellent part. There is never really a point when the Phoenixes can be completely nullified.
Sounds promising. Thanks for clearing that up for us.
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On April 27 2010 02:29 Liquid`NonY wrote:In fact, as the game progresses and they've known for a while that you're going Phoenix, the Phoenix still plays an excellent part. There is never really a point when the Phoenixes can be completely nullified.
This is sort of along the lines of what I was thinking. They are so incredibly fast (making the perfect scout) and annoying to deal with.
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On April 27 2010 00:07 Smoyf wrote:
Does anyone know if gravitron beam interrupts an infestor's mind control?
It in fact does. Just played a game where this happened.
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For PvZ, has anyone tried 10-gate zealot pressure into 1-stargate phoenix harrass? or does using up all those mins on zealots make it prohibitive?
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10 gate zealot isn't a good eco build and you need 150 gas for the stargate (which kinda means you need 2 assimilators and extra drones). So I doubt you'd get it as fast as you would with a 13 gate.
10 gate zealot FE is a better follow up I think. You can always go double stargate after that.
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On April 27 2010 03:30 shiftY803 wrote:
For PvZ, has anyone tried 10-gate zealot pressure into 1-stargate phoenix harrass? or does using up all those mins on zealots make it prohibitive?
Looking through the replays it seems viable. The big shocker to me is that you get 4 phoenixes out at the same time either way (with no chronoed zealot though). Compare the games Nony vs Sky to Nony vs ForAuir. In Vsky, Nony goes 9 chrono, 10 pylon, 10 gate and builds a first zealot. In vForAuir, Nony goes 9 pylon 13 gate and goes stalker first. At the 8:00 mark (which is where Nony has 4 phoenixes and moves out) the vForAuir game had one more zealot (8 instead of 7). Both had 1 stalker and 2 sentries. The only major thing is that Nony did not use that first zealot for early aggression and he did not chronoboost it. How exactly that would mess with the numbers I'm not sure, but it seems like if you chrono the zealot, think about it as you are 2 zealots behind the normal build (due to lost probes from not chronoing that). Do you think you can make up the difference? If you think your micro counts as making your opponent cut 2 zealots, go for it. Otherwise take the safer route and go 13 gate.
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I was asked to put up a replay of my game with Goat where I used phoenixes, so here it is:
http://www.mediafire.com/?yunm5ezx3tz
The main points of the build are this:
I realize I am weak early, so if I see anything other than a FE, I put down a forge with the stargate. If not, I expand, forge, then cannon at the expo. The main thing about the build is it puts you macro-wise equal with the Zerg, which can make a pretty instant win.
I like to go templar tech after. The DTs gives a nice momentum push (much better if you're not a noob and you know how to macro unlike me ). After that, there is a second push when the templars come out because if they didn't make changelings, you have a feedback/phoenix/DT push. Now you're set end game because you did two powerful pushes, took an expo, blocked their third, and have templar tech out. Throw down tons of gates and now it's kind of do whatever. I like sometimes to get a mothership out because with the phoenixes flying around it's tough to keep overseers alive. If they still do not changeling to get rid of energy, feedback is instant win. If not, just contain for the win.
I like going templar because it can make sure infestors cannot do anything. And the DTs are powerful with feedback/phoenix overhead because overseers just cannot stay alive. Also this has a really broodlord-proof transition because you have tons of gates for archons and stalkers (try archons vs broodlords, they do really good!)
If someone's good I think they can execute this much better and really own!
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On April 27 2010 03:30 shiftY803 wrote:
For PvZ, has anyone tried 10-gate zealot pressure into 1-stargate phoenix harrass? or does using up all those mins on zealots make it prohibitive?
I do it all the time. Usually I get a zealot/sentry mix with the phoenixes which is effective against hydras, which they generally get in response, followed up with an expansion during the harassment and transition into templar tech. Make one void ray if you scout a roach warren.
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New answer: use patch 11.
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just rally phoenixes to circle around an army now.. no need to micro :D
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On May 07 2010 05:54 NightOne wrote:
just rally phoenixes to circle around an army now.. no need to micro :D
Well, it only works against air.
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hahah so sad to see such good work obliterated by one ridiculously strange patch.
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I wonder if PvP is going to devolve into drive-by Phoenix airborne warfare.
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On May 07 2010 06:21 Bibdy wrote:
I wonder if PvP is going to devolve into drive-by Phoenix airborne warfare.
Kind of doubt it. I just played a game to try it out and void rays pretty much destroy phoenixes once they are in your base - micro'd or not you can't get rid of their charge.
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On May 07 2010 05:51 rackdude wrote:
New answer: use patch 11.
just right click.. on.. the ground..
:/
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I did quite a few games with phoenix last night, they don't really seem viable unless you can mass them quickly and safely, not really worth doing off of one base.
The time i use phoenix is as an opener/transition unit, mainly vs zerg to deal with mutas, since i find that all of my 4 or 5 gate pushes, or even 4 gate + robo - whatever, they all fail to a ling/roach/muta combo, with the key being that he always just goes for my aa units first (stalker/sentry/phoenix if i have them) and afterwards, his ground army may be decimated, but his mutas will remain, i lose. This has happened to me over and over. If i pump more AA (stalkers/sentries) and less ground (less on immo/zeals) then i may take out the mutas, but in the end his ground force will prove superior. If i try to expand and defend.. well we know what happens vs zerg if you try that, mutas give 100% map control, uncontested.
So what I have been doing lately is Forge FE on maps that allow it (blistering sands, LT, etc) with a complete wall in + a few cannons to hold off baneling bust or ling/roach spam. if they really go nuts trying to get in, they may kill part of your wall in once or twice, which is fine - youll be pumping out zealots slowly while massing phoenix. So i just tech straight to phoenix while pumping lots from a single gate at first. 2 SG with forge FE, spam phoenix. When I have 4-6, i just run around and kill all his overlords/queens.
At this point they will go mutas and/or hydras. I anticipate this and keep up phoenix production while adding a large amount of gates + getting robo and colossi, charge for zealots, blink for stalkers. If you see corrupters void rays make a nice counter (they fall apart to charged up VR).
All the while that i am doing this my phoenix are scouting and killing queens workers and overlords. In the end I will do a huge push with upgraded chargelots, stalkers, a few sentry, colossi, and leftover phoenix/void ray. At this point the zerg will also have a sizable army of lings, hydras, and mutas (maybe some left over corruptors. My experience is that usually when i am ready to push, and as long as i dont allow him to expand beyond 2 base (or hurt his worker/overlords/queens so badly that it doesn't matter that he is on 3 base) this army composition almost always wins and simply overwhelms the zerg.
The problem is, unless it is a forge FE viable map, i cannot beat a good zerg. roach + ling spam will almost break me (if not outright win the game) and if it doesn't, the transition to mutas will because i simply can't seem to counter both mutas and roaches if they focus fire my AA. The problem here is that, ALL of their units can focus fire all of my anti air units since they are all GTA. Now granted, he will lose his ground army by doing this but all of my air killing units will be down, giving his mutas free reign, and at that point i will never catch up in production of aa units to counter his mutas, and i lose.
So basically as i see it now, being able to mass phoenix and maybe a few VR for building sniping with a forge FE is the only way to counter the current zerg builds. The problem comes in when you get maps that are not forge FE viable (most of them) and are forced to go a normal gate/robo or gate/SG route. Granted i have won with gate/robo, and i have won with gate/sg, however 2-3 queens easily conter void rays on a normal build/push and the roaches/lings will easily counter your ground army, and obviously immortals/zeals are easily countered by spine crawlering up and getting mutas out in time.
So thats my take on phoenixes and pvz, which is where i use them. They have uses in pvt, but it is so rare that i see tanks in pvt which are about the only unit they have worth lifting to disable it. In PvP yes i have seen nony use them effectively, but keep in mind most of those games he would have won regardless, his opponents did really stupid things like spamming mass zealots without charge vs stalkers, which just kited them all day long.
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um.. how exactly you get overun by all that army.. one base ( which 90% of mutaing and roach rushing zerg will have ) wont be able to produce even half what ur saying , and if hes fe... do you just sit in your base, pumping immortals.. and then you qq.. when mutas beat you ?
void rays + phoenix raped mass mutas before patch.. i lost some games.. where i thought i won.. i got early mutas.. + harass.. managed to expand.. and keep harassing.. and my enemy just massed phoenixes and vrs.. oh my god.. how easy my 30+ mutas stack fallen.. and you think that critical mass would obliterate with their glave strikes.. well think again..
your ground army afterwards gets raped by vrs + lift off..
seriously protos crying about mutas.. you can mass zealots of 2 gates 24/7 while teching into vrs.. not only those mass zealots will be able to defend.. against everything but all in roach rush..
if zerg is expanding, he will probably loose right there.. as first 4 zealots come so fast.. unless you rush units.. you wont have things to defend..( eventually you will, but losses will be high, to have any chances vs vrs )
if zerg goes for fast mutas, he have neither gass or minerals to spare..
nor first 5 mutas can finish the game like vrs can..
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EPT
