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So instead of complaining about balance, I've decided to try to "learn the Phoenix" and I've done ok. Not too good, but decent. Most of what I've learned is from VODs I've seen (especially one of Inka) and personal experimentation.
What I've found is this:
A lot of the time phoenixes are great at forcing a tech switch. If I do some kind of void ray build and I see mutas, I found that phoenixes are a good follow-up. However, you have to be already transitioning before you see the hydra den going down. So it's usually 2 void rays, into about 3 phoenixes while throwing down gateways, and then into stalker/collosus or some other mid game to kill hydras. It's also fun to just have those 3 phoenixes flying around to be annoying and kill overlords even though they do not have much of a use by that point.
The other use of the phoenix that I've attempted was an early starport to get one phoenix to scout and snipe some overlords. What this ended up doing was also forcing the Zerg not to go mutas (which I hate dealing with). However, since I didn't have a robo at all I was likely just to get rolled by roaches.
So, what I'm wondering is what everyone else has found with their experimentation with the phoenix. As you can kind of imply from what I've written above, it seems to me to be only viable as a transition away from void rays. However, I could be wrong so I'd like to see what others have found.
Edits
New developments have happened lately thanks to Nony. Here is a link to a replay pack of Nony using phoenixes to completely own:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=121441
These are analyzed on Day9 Daily #108.
Also, here is a link to Nony using phoenixes in PvZ:
http://www.youtube.com/user/HuskyStarcraft#p/u/2/scCnY2g1TTg
Summary: Phoenixes have a lot more potential than we thought before.
If anyone has any replays of phoenixes used well, post them in the form and I will put them on the OP!
Mod Edit: Great thread!
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The part about fast phoenix for scouting/sniping overlords, and forcing the zerg to not go mutas seems pretty nice. As a protoss, I hate dealing with the highly mobile mutas, definitely gonna try that one.
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I am not in the beta, but i think phoenixes could be good if you take them with your ground army to snipe medivacs, but also for their gravity blast thing.
They could easily snipe ghosts, queens, sentries and other annoying units.
Never saw them used like that...
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Finally someone who comes with a solid suggestion on how to use the phoenix. finally!
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What I am doing quite often is getting an early starport while keeping an eye on the enemy (if he puts down a roach warren then you have to get a cannon at the entrance (doesnt work on maps like scrap station though where you dont have a proper choke.
also get like 2 sentries for without forcefield the defense wont work.
i produce 2 phoenix (best chrono boost them) and start producing a third one (as two phoenixes cant kill a queen without full energy). so i attack the zerg when 2 phoenix are ready (third in production). start attacking the queen (2 times putting her in the air until both phoenixes energy is used up then the third phoenix arrives and i can kill the queen.
after that i got a short timespan where i can snipe overlords before his hydras come out (a job 3 phoenix do pretty well)
i tend to keep these phoenixes alive (you can repeat the queen sniping also later in game when hes havin few forces back in his main) or kill single workers (which is pretty micro intense and not that effective IMO) - but using them to scout and cripple his scouting already helps alot.
i dont think it makes sense to produce more phoenixes until lategame when I need them again against broodlords because now hell be going hydralisks and you gotta hurry to get storm or collossus out.
best regards
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Calgary25990 Posts
I think a few phoenixes are really nice to isolate his special support units (tanks, immortals). If your opponent is using basic units (mm or gateway units) your phoenixes are going to be useless. Unfortunately I usually feel like I just need to gamble and hope he plays into my hands.
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Yeah I've started using phoenix in standard pvz games. In each of my pvz games, I play as if they're going to speedling/baneling all-in (so I get 2 gates pumping units to defend while getting a stargate up when I can), and if they do, my phoenixes can punish them pretty bad. If they're doing some type of roach rush, I can use the gravitron beam to help defend. If they're going lair tech, most zergs react by going hydras so I typically don't have to worry about a muta rush. Through all this I can usually safely expand with my ground army and cannons.
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I have done phoenix as a response to mutas a few times now and it has seemed to work well enough. When I see double gas I typically will transition into double stargate and pump about 4 phnx as soon as possible. It shut down the initial 3-6 mutas easy and seems to deter further muta development.
Stoping his OL scouting/creep pooping is just too good to pass up.
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On April 20 2010 02:32 Everyday wrote:
I am not in the beta, but i think phoenixes could be good if you take them with your ground army to snipe medivacs, but also for their gravity blast thing.
They could easily snipe ghosts, queens, sentries and other annoying units.
Never saw them used like that...
I tried that a couple times and my phoenixes just died way too fast. A few marines can take them down quick enough that the medivacs do not even budge. For sniping anything I've found blink to be more useful. However, I may just be a micro noob and someone might be able to prove me wrong.
Likewise, I haven't found the gravity blast that useful because most of the armies (MMM, mass roach/hydra) just have too many units for lifting up 4/5 to do anything. However, I did find something annoying to exploit...
If you lift up an SCV who is building something (ie, a command center at an expansion) and you lift it up and immediately cancel and fly away, the SCV will not continue building the building. I've only done it a few times to mess with people and it really does throw people off. I mean, they have an SCV there... why isn't my command center done yet? Oh well, I'll just wait longer. Oh, he's not building, I guess I forgot to put him on or something? *It took one guy 3 times to see that my phoenix just quickly flew in there and lifted then immediately flew away*. It's more of a gimmick but it's pretty funny. That's about the best use of the gravity spell I've had though.
On April 20 2010 02:41 snace wrote:
What I am doing quite often is getting an early starport while keeping an eye on the enemy (if he puts down a roach warren then you have to get a cannon at the entrance (doesnt work on maps like scrap station though where you dont have a proper choke.
also get like 2 sentries for without forcefield the defense wont work.
i produce 2 phoenix (best chrono boost them) and start producing a third one (as two phoenixes cant kill a queen without full energy). so i attack the zerg when 2 phoenix are ready (third in production). start attacking the queen (2 times putting her in the air until both phoenixes energy is used up then the third phoenix arrives and i can kill the queen.
after that i got a short timespan where i can snipe overlords before his hydras come out (a job 3 phoenix do pretty well)
i tend to keep these phoenixes alive (you can repeat the queen sniping also later in game when hes havin few forces back in his main) or kill single workers (which is pretty micro intense and not that effective IMO) - but using them to scout and cripple his scouting already helps alot.
i dont think it makes sense to produce more phoenixes until lategame when I need them again against broodlords because now hell be going hydralisks and you gotta hurry to get storm or collossus out.
best regards
I'm going to have to give this one another try using your build. I never got an early enough forge and tried cannon/sentry defense but maybe this would be great on Lost Temple where you can cannon/block and take your nat. I'd just have to be weary of nydus canals. Though I totally agree with the fact that killing single workers is too micro intensive... you have to constantly watch them to not lose any, have to keep on lifting things, and then you only get like 4 kills by the time you're pushed out of there. However, it's pretty funny and can throw people off. I find that using phoenixes for this purpose to be more of the equivalent of the Stove for SC2, but maybe someone can prove me wrong with a good VOD of it used properly.
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I find them to be a liability. They open the door wide to a tech switch, which can be a good thing, since you KNOW its going to happen, but when their GtA force (Marines, Stalkers, Hydras) reaches a certain point, your Phoenixes aren't going to be useful in the confrontation at all. They're not like Banshees and Mutas where you can quite safely kill equal their number in GtA units. It takes a lot of micro to be effective, and the energy cost is a HUGE hinderance in their ability to do that.
Denying Overlord scouting and forcing a tech switch to a ground army can be great, but if they had already decided on a ground army and you didn't scout it earlier (you're not going to have Observers until after the Phoenixes after all) then you're pretty much boned. To me its just a reactionary unit to a Muta/Banshee rush. Then its a matter of finding something useful for these guys to do before they become obsolete to a GtA force.
There doesn't seem to be anything worthwhile they can do that a wad of Blinking Stalkers can't.
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I really like going double stargate phoenix+zealots vs zerg on desert oasis. Most of the time the zerg goes for mutaling on that map. I keep double pumping+chrono phoenix on the 2 stargates then reveal only when mutalisks pop out. I kill off all the mutalisks, run in and kill the queens and the zerg GGs. I only do it because I hate going ground army vs mutaling. On that map I want air superiority.
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The Phoenix also should give you a complete scout on z's base, right? That counts for something.
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Yeah, but you can get the same benefit from 100/100 at the Cyber Core 
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When I see toss go phoenix I say to myself ok whatever I'll make even more mutas.
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On April 20 2010 04:56 guitarizt wrote:
When I see toss go phoenix I say to myself ok whatever I'll make even more mutas.
lol, that's exactly my same thought process.
toss's need to stop thinking they have to get phoenixes to counter mutas
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I've had success in PvZ opening with like 5 Phoenix and just harassing Queens/Overlords until he gets Hydra/Muta. I always take into account that a Roach bust could be bad, so I get my Forge up before my fleet flies out and start some Cannons to be safe. It really depends on what I scout from the Z, sometimes I can get away with putting the Cannons at my natural and expanding, sometimes I have to turtle up my ramp.
The important thing I noticed when trying something like this is that you have to transition into a ground army, there is really no way you can keep air superiority. What this does is pretty much forces to Zerg's hand a bit earlier than he wants too, since he HAS to do something about your Phoenix. Whether it's Spores, Hydras, or Mutas, you should be ready for whatever.
I would imagine that a build like this would be weak vs a multi-queen defense (as in more than 2), but even then, 5 Phoenix kill a queen in 1 lift. If they Zerg is able to scout it, he might be able to get some defense, but 5 Phoenix (w/ Chrono Boost) come out very quickly and seem to hit at an awkward time every time I've used it, right before any kind of anti-air would be prepared.
I would post reps but my SC2 computer's mobo just fried. I'll try to snag them off the HD and post them later if I can.
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On April 20 2010 05:00 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 04:56 guitarizt wrote:
When I see toss go phoenix I say to myself ok whatever I'll make even more mutas. lol, that's exactly my same thought process. toss's need to stop thinking they have to get phoenixes to counter mutas
i'd rather they didn't and additionally found out how guardian shield also helps air units, ridiculing the muta's glaive, especially with +1 shield upgrade
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On April 20 2010 05:14 yarkO wrote:
I've had success in PvZ opening with like 5 Phoenix and just harassing Queens/Overlords until he gets Hydra/Muta. I always take into account that a Roach bust could be bad, so I get my Forge up before my fleet flies out and start some Cannons to be safe. It really depends on what I scout from the Z, sometimes I can get away with putting the Cannons at my natural and expanding, sometimes I have to turtle up my ramp.
The important thing I noticed when trying something like this is that you have to transition into a ground army, there is really no way you can keep air superiority. What this does is pretty much forces to Zerg's hand a bit earlier than he wants too, since he HAS to do something about your Phoenix. Whether it's Spores, Hydras, or Mutas, you should be ready for whatever.
I would imagine that a build like this would be weak vs a multi-queen defense (as in more than 2), but even then, 5 Phoenix kill a queen in 1 lift. If they Zerg is able to scout it, he might be able to get some defense, but 5 Phoenix (w/ Chrono Boost) come out very quickly and seem to hit at an awkward time every time I've used it, right before any kind of anti-air would be prepared.
I would post reps but my SC2 computer's mobo just fried. I'll try to snag them off the HD and post them later if I can.
I do not see how this would be more beneficial than a void ray rush. If they have one queen and are not close to more anti-air, yes 5 phoenixes would easily kill a queen, but 1 void ray kills a queen and will get the lair if they are in the same position that you'd be using the phoenixes.
Now there may be ways it is better: is it quicker than a void ray rush? (Sounds like it wouldn't be because it's multiple phoenixes). Do you find it has a better transition than the void ray rush if they had enough anti-air to stop it and is therefore a safer way of executing the same idea?
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phoenix is kind of a joke unit for anything besides sniping overlords and harrassing queens early.. I hope it gets a buff. It needs to at least be able to do damage against non-light air, even if that means nerfing the void ray to only hit ground (that would match up with what the other races have in air units). But I like where the OP is going since they do make for a handy tech switch. A good muta player is much harder to deal with than zerg ground (as toss) for me.
I have found them to be handy against zerg. I've never tried them against terran but besides lifting siege tanks i don't think they'd be more effective than templar or colossus. Not even going to mention protoss.
I really think PvZ is the only really viable situation. If they go mutas after your harrass you can just mass more phoenix, but if they get even a few corruptors you're in trouble since phoenix barely hit them. But mostly they'll go hydra and you should've bought yourself some time to get a council or maybe expand with cannons.
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On April 20 2010 05:39 rackdude wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 05:14 yarkO wrote:
I've had success in PvZ opening with like 5 Phoenix and just harassing Queens/Overlords until he gets Hydra/Muta. I always take into account that a Roach bust could be bad, so I get my Forge up before my fleet flies out and start some Cannons to be safe. It really depends on what I scout from the Z, sometimes I can get away with putting the Cannons at my natural and expanding, sometimes I have to turtle up my ramp.
The important thing I noticed when trying something like this is that you have to transition into a ground army, there is really no way you can keep air superiority. What this does is pretty much forces to Zerg's hand a bit earlier than he wants too, since he HAS to do something about your Phoenix. Whether it's Spores, Hydras, or Mutas, you should be ready for whatever.
I would imagine that a build like this would be weak vs a multi-queen defense (as in more than 2), but even then, 5 Phoenix kill a queen in 1 lift. If they Zerg is able to scout it, he might be able to get some defense, but 5 Phoenix (w/ Chrono Boost) come out very quickly and seem to hit at an awkward time every time I've used it, right before any kind of anti-air would be prepared.
I would post reps but my SC2 computer's mobo just fried. I'll try to snag them off the HD and post them later if I can. I do not see how this would be more beneficial than a void ray rush. If they have one queen and are not close to more anti-air, yes 5 phoenixes would easily kill a queen, but 1 void ray kills a queen and will get the lair if they are in the same position that you'd be using the phoenixes. Now there may be ways it is better: is it quicker than a void ray rush? (Sounds like it wouldn't be because it's multiple phoenixes). Do you find it has a better transition than the void ray rush if they had enough anti-air to stop it and is therefore a safer way of executing the same idea?
The argument i've heard for phoenix instead of VR is that phoenix allow for more overlord/queen kills and thus more immidiate damage to the zerg's production and economy without the more difficut gambit of killing structures, which require you to catch your opponent completely off-guard.
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EPT
