EPTThey have their uses, and on a bigger map such as desert oasis I think they are very good, but not on smaller maps, as they can just counter when your 2-3 pheonixes can only lift up 3 units...
Proper Phoenix Use - Page 2
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
skYfiVe
United States382 Posts
They have their uses, and on a bigger map such as desert oasis I think they are very good, but not on smaller maps, as they can just counter when your 2-3 pheonixes can only lift up 3 units... | ||
|
Alou
United States3748 Posts
Also for a fast stargate vers Zerg, I just go Voidrays, kill the queen with two, take out the hatchery. If the zerg has anti air, I just harass with it and take out some drones or buildings at the edge of the base or usually go back to my base to defend with it since I dont have as many ground forces at this point. I haven't seen many uses for Phoenixes although the picking up an SCV and dropping it back down to stop it building something is cool. I think they need a small buff to be effective in some situations, but at the same time, I kind of like Protoss having a weaker air. Means we always got something to think about. | ||
|
Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On April 20 2010 05:18 roemy wrote: i'd rather they didn't and additionally found out how guardian shield also helps air units, ridiculing the muta's glaive, especially with +1 shield upgrade The speed of the Mutalisk and Phoenix vs the speed of the Sentry is kind of difficult to field both in unison. Sure, if two big armies with these units collide, Guardian Shield is going to help immensely, but most of the time Mutas are only reachable when they're harassing. If you're using Phoenixes the fight could end up being ANYWHERE on the map, as you chase them down while they're fleeing. More often that not, miles away from your Sentry ball. | ||
|
puckthecat
United States18 Posts
Yeah, but you can get the same benefit from 100/100 at the Cyber Core Phoenix is considerably faster. Warp Gate research takes 140 second. Hallucination takes 110. Stargate + Phoenix takes 105 total. Hallucination also costs substantial Sentry energy to use as a routine scout, effectively costing you gas over time to keep going. And Hallucination doesn't deny z scouting either, which Phoenix should do pretty well. Anyway, I'm not saying everyone should be using Phoenix like they did Corsairs in BW. I just think the argument against them isn't as simple as it is being made out to be. | ||
|
Gont
Germany239 Posts
Also i think that most Tosses dont have a nice followup from doing phoenix or vrays. If u throw down an expo while harrasing and find a way to defend it it would be good i guess but just to stay on one base it sucks imo. | ||
|
yarkO
Canada810 Posts
On April 20 2010 05:39 rackdude wrote: I do not see how this would be more beneficial than a void ray rush. If they have one queen and are not close to more anti-air, yes 5 phoenixes would easily kill a queen, but 1 void ray kills a queen and will get the lair if they are in the same position that you'd be using the phoenixes. Now there may be ways it is better: is it quicker than a void ray rush? (Sounds like it wouldn't be because it's multiple phoenixes). Do you find it has a better transition than the void ray rush if they had enough anti-air to stop it and is therefore a safer way of executing the same idea? Truthfully, I only started doing it because I really don't like how Void Rays look lol. My other problem with VR is that they are so slow, on most maps you have to proxy the tech to get the most from it. It feels a lot more vulnerable, and everybody these days is scouting for proxy VR so it loses it's strongest point (being a surprise). With the Phoenix, I found it doesn't really matter if they catch a peek at my tech. While I do get an early Sentry to chase the Ovie out, and to have energy to block the ramp multiple times, the Phoenix really do come out so fast with CB. I would have to test it a bunch vs a VR rush to see which one hits faster. As someone else posted, Void Rays are really hit-or-miss. If they scout and are prepared, you could end up doing 0 damage. I've never had a game where my Phoenix did 0 damage. At best, you kill Queen(s), Overlords and maybe Drones before they get some AA. It constricts any anti-air they have to their base, and any ground rush quickly loses steam as they lose Overlords and are unable to reinforce the attack. Even in a more desperate scenario (which I've come across), you use your Phoenix to lift up their Roaches and focus the rest with Cannons behind a forcefield. It transitions like any other Stargate opening, you can either expand with some Cannons or if needed, build up an army off 1 or 2 gates that can secure your natural. Phoenix should not win you the game outright, but can secure you a nice advantage into the mid-game. | ||
|
Tone_
United Kingdom554 Posts
It's working pretty well. | ||
|
SichuanPanda
Canada1542 Posts
Particularly on the small 1v1 maps, I like to do more of a tech style of play, using cannons and sentry/zealot to wall-off ling/roach pushes and getting quick Stargate as has been discussed above. Essentially when I go this build what I intend to do is expand while harassing with the Phoenix (I get about five). Meanwhile I will tech for the appropriate counter to whatever he seems to be doing. Basically you want to go for Overlords, keep the Zerg supply locked as long as possible. At the same time I bring my Zealots to his choke/natural whichever is applicable and start harassing there as well. The real Strength to the Phoenix I believe is being used in a manner similar to what Zerg likes to do with Mutalisk and harassing and containing a Zerg. The Phoenix as pure AA is not that powerful but when you are able to lift key units into the air (and with a enough Phoenix quickly killing them) as well as contain a Zergs production via Overlords harass, or at least force him to go Spores and burn money on those it's clear we have yet to see its full potential. | ||
|
Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On April 20 2010 06:14 puckthecat wrote: Phoenix is considerably faster. Warp Gate research takes 140 second. Hallucination takes 110. Stargate + Phoenix takes 105 total. Hallucination also costs substantial Sentry energy to use as a routine scout, effectively costing you gas over time to keep going. And Hallucination doesn't deny z scouting either, which Phoenix should do pretty well. Anyway, I'm not saying everyone should be using Phoenix like they did Corsairs in BW. I just think the argument against them isn't as simple as it is being made out to be. Just saying, if that's all you want Phoenixes for, better to get Hallucination. At least they can actually help you in a fight! Spawning a buttload of Zealots, Stalkers and Immortals to trick them into thinking your army is much larger, and having lots of fake targets to hit is really cool. Too many people tend to use them to spawn Collossi at an absurdly early point in the game and fooling nobody in the process. | ||
|
fulmetljaket
482 Posts
| ||
|
yoden
United States64 Posts
| ||
|
puckthecat
United States18 Posts
Just saying, if that's all you want Phoenixes for, better to get Hallucination. It isn't all one would want Phoenixes for. It is just something it does in addition to whatever other reasons you might get it. If you are willing to pay 100/100 for scouting, you should take that into consideration when judging the 300/250 it costs you to build your first Phoenix. | ||
|
Odds
Canada1188 Posts
| ||
|
Con a la Bon
Canada3 Posts
I haven't seen anyone talk about that combination yet, but it seems like it would be decent for forcing a zerg to get more overseers than they would like to get aggressive. The only problem is the wasted tech transitions to get that far would probably set you far back, so you'd have to be ultra aggressive in hunting OLs with phoenixes to get there. | ||
|
DrivE
United States2554 Posts
| ||
|
Soet
Sweden66 Posts
| ||
|
DEVIANT
New Zealand30 Posts
On April 20 2010 05:39 rackdude wrote: I do not see how this would be more beneficial than a void ray rush. If they have one queen and are not close to more anti-air, yes 5 phoenixes would easily kill a queen, but 1 void ray kills a queen and will get the lair if they are in the same position that you'd be using the phoenixes. Now there may be ways it is better: is it quicker than a void ray rush? (Sounds like it wouldn't be because it's multiple phoenixes). Do you find it has a better transition than the void ray rush if they had enough anti-air to stop it and is therefore a safer way of executing the same idea? A single void ray will lose to a queen in 27 seconds. Total Cost: 150/100 -2 unit quota A single phoenix will lose to a queen in 19 seconds. Total Cost: 250 150 -3 unit quota I'd say a single stargate might be a good tactic to get those 2-3 phoenixes, to scout fast (observer is slow- but offers decloaking for late game DT/burrow/ghost detection) and snipe a few OL's (slowing zerg growth rate), drones, probes, or SCVs- essentially paying for themselves in lost production for the enemy. It'll slow his push too because he'll be thinking "ohsh**oshi*oh**it". It will goad him into going fast anti-air, using up resources, at which point you can tech switch to immortals/sentries/zealots, while he pumps out stalkers, canons, towers, sporethings, hydras, and whatever anti-air terran uses most (I forget  ).Give yourself time for a handful of immos/z's and start an expansion, set a rallypoint near his base and queue up more, then push in. And when you do this, you still have those phoenixes flying around sniping units, one at a time. Harassing then retreating (queue jobs from your base, up side of map, into line, kill one drone, then out of base and back home). | ||
|
Taco-Mental
United States84 Posts
#1 #2 #3 Couple of things to consider when going with phoenix's vs zerg. With 5 phoenix's 1 can lift a hydra the other 4 one shot it. Nice to use when he is first getting his hydra's up as in small numbers you should be able to take them. Phoenix's are better than hallucinations and void rays in the sense that they give you map control. Generally speaking its not a good idea to waste energy harassing his drones. Save the lifts for queen & hydra sniping. When it comes to muta's i dont' try to mass enough phoenix's to take on all his mutas but to chase down stragglers fleeing your stalker/sentry smackdown.. Its also worth noting 5 phoenix's 1 shot a muta. Micro matters there. Phoenix's give you vision on high ground which can be useful with stalkers. Which leads into the fact that stalkers & sentries hit air. Later game i have as many as 10 phoenix's. If you engage first with your army and split it with forcefield then lift part of that first army your ground forces come out of that battle with a nice bit of health. Someone already mentioned this but it bears repeating. Phoenix harrass + DT combo can be very deadly. Here is a replay The important part to consider is that if you have dt's he can't leave his base safely without overseers. So you kill them with phoenix's. I would love to see an upgrade at the Core that gives them 25% more starting energy so you can actually use gravitational lift. I also like pheonix's vs toss. It counters void ray rushes pretty handily, they do some damage to collossus (and if you get lucky enough to spot a lone one you can take it out fairly easily. If they go somewhat immortal heavy you can compete with far fewer when you are lifting his in the air and focus firing the one or 2 left on the ground. With your own observers out you can obs snipe. Couple of dt's get warped into your minerals while your army is out pillaging? obs + phoenix stops it. Vs Terran they have a far more limited use though I still really want to make them work because they are probably my favorite unit in the game. So far all i have is ghost & reaper sniping, lifting siege tanks just as i push with my main army, stopping fast banshee's, if they go with 100% maurauder/ghost army I think phoenix's could really punish that play well. I'm thinking that perhaps hallucinated phoenix's mixed with my main army might even let me thin out the marines of their main force. that 20dmg a shot pisses me off though. nothing like wasting that 3rd shot for only 5 dmg  or with a +1 upgrade even less. Seriously though. Phoenix's are great vs zerg. Most P don't use them so if nothing else it will give you the edge of surprise / lack of experience vs the build. | ||
|
keV.
United States3214 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2mc3T.jpg) | ||
|
Taco-Mental
United States84 Posts
Replay | ||
| ||
