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On April 27 2010 01:37 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 23:05 shiftY803 wrote:
Why are we worrying about fast roaches vs. phoenix anyway? If you scout it, nobody is forcing you to build a stargate... Well, he was talking about a phoenix *rush*, where presumably you try to get them out as soon as possible. If you watch Nony's streams, you'll note that he doesn't play the phoenix strategy every game. Indeed, it gets hard-countered by mass blink stalkers in the mirror match so you *have* to know if your opponent is going mass stalkers and respond appropriately. For this reason, among others, I don't think you should focus too heavily on rushing phoenixes out, and I don't think the take-home point is that phoenixes > all.
I don't think Nony was particularly trying to time his phoenixes more so than just see what kind of use he could get out of them in various matchups. It's hard to say where they will fit in best and what counters will be cost-effective, what transitions to make, etc. since we have only begun to see them being used well.
I agree, the moral isn't that phoenix are unstoppably good in the right hands, regardless of the opponent. That being said, we do have to consider the idea that phoenix is very flexible, and could be a staple of PvZ at the very least. I have my doubts about PvT (I like the void ray much better in that MU), but we'll see how things pan out. I'm excited that players are finally aware that protoss have air units to fear. Now they actually have to sweat a bit if they cannot find a robotics and can no longer assume it's a gateway all-in.
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8751 Posts
Some of the games on my stream and/or replay pack are really experimental so don't look at every move I make and think "NonY thinks it can work like this." It's better to look at everything objectively: when I fail, is there something I could tweak to succeed? When I succeed, is there something my opponent could tweak to stop me? Every game is up for evaluation. Some people are doing this already but others are jumping to conclusions a bit.
I think Phoenixes are generally not a good surprise strategy. Since Phoenixes are excellent scouts, the cost-benefit analysis of hiding Phoenixes is a lot different than hiding other kinds of tech/units. If you hide your Phoenixes, you are denying yourself free scouting. When you scout your opponent with the Phoenix, you get to adjust your build based on what you see of his base and army and your opponent gets to adjust his build based on seeing one Phoenix. (If you are making more Phoenixes, don't reveal the additional Phoenixes until you're going to use them.) So will you win more games by swapping information with your opponent?
I think yes. There are hard counters to the Phoenix build that need to be scouted ASAP to survive against. Even if you gain an advantage in the early game, like getting gas much faster than your opponent, they can still go for, for example, a hard Stalker Blink rush and win. But if they weren't already doing a good anti-Phoenix build, then there isn't much that they can do to adjust. In fact, as the game progresses and they've known for a while that you're going Phoenix, the Phoenix still plays an excellent part. There is never really a point when the Phoenixes can be completely nullified.
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On April 27 2010 02:29 Liquid`NonY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Some of the games on my stream and/or replay pack are really experimental so don't look at every move I make and think "NonY thinks it can work like this." It's better to look at everything objectively: when I fail, is there something I could tweak to succeed? When I succeed, is there something my opponent could tweak to stop me? Every game is up for evaluation. Some people are doing this already but others are jumping to conclusions a bit.
I think Phoenixes are generally not a good surprise strategy. Since Phoenixes are excellent scouts, the cost-benefit analysis of hiding Phoenixes is a lot different than hiding other kinds of tech/units. If you hide your Phoenixes, you are denying yourself free scouting. When you scout your opponent with the Phoenix, you get to adjust your build based on what you see of his base and army and your opponent gets to adjust his build based on seeing one Phoenix. (If you are making more Phoenixes, don't reveal the additional Phoenixes until you're going to use them.) So will you win more games by swapping information with your opponent?
I think yes. There are hard counters to the Phoenix build that need to be scouted ASAP to survive against. Even if you gain an advantage in the early game, like getting gas much faster than your opponent, they can still go for, for example, a hard Stalker Blink rush and win. But if they weren't already doing a good anti-Phoenix build, then there isn't much that they can do to adjust. In fact, as the game progresses and they've known for a while that you're going Phoenix, the Phoenix still plays an excellent part. There is never really a point when the Phoenixes can be completely nullified.
Sounds promising. Thanks for clearing that up for us.
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On April 27 2010 02:29 Liquid`NonY wrote:In fact, as the game progresses and they've known for a while that you're going Phoenix, the Phoenix still plays an excellent part. There is never really a point when the Phoenixes can be completely nullified.
This is sort of along the lines of what I was thinking. They are so incredibly fast (making the perfect scout) and annoying to deal with.
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On April 27 2010 00:07 Smoyf wrote:
Does anyone know if gravitron beam interrupts an infestor's mind control?
It in fact does. Just played a game where this happened.
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For PvZ, has anyone tried 10-gate zealot pressure into 1-stargate phoenix harrass? or does using up all those mins on zealots make it prohibitive?
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10 gate zealot isn't a good eco build and you need 150 gas for the stargate (which kinda means you need 2 assimilators and extra drones). So I doubt you'd get it as fast as you would with a 13 gate.
10 gate zealot FE is a better follow up I think. You can always go double stargate after that.
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On April 27 2010 03:30 shiftY803 wrote:
For PvZ, has anyone tried 10-gate zealot pressure into 1-stargate phoenix harrass? or does using up all those mins on zealots make it prohibitive?
Looking through the replays it seems viable. The big shocker to me is that you get 4 phoenixes out at the same time either way (with no chronoed zealot though). Compare the games Nony vs Sky to Nony vs ForAuir. In Vsky, Nony goes 9 chrono, 10 pylon, 10 gate and builds a first zealot. In vForAuir, Nony goes 9 pylon 13 gate and goes stalker first. At the 8:00 mark (which is where Nony has 4 phoenixes and moves out) the vForAuir game had one more zealot (8 instead of 7). Both had 1 stalker and 2 sentries. The only major thing is that Nony did not use that first zealot for early aggression and he did not chronoboost it. How exactly that would mess with the numbers I'm not sure, but it seems like if you chrono the zealot, think about it as you are 2 zealots behind the normal build (due to lost probes from not chronoing that). Do you think you can make up the difference? If you think your micro counts as making your opponent cut 2 zealots, go for it. Otherwise take the safer route and go 13 gate.
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I was asked to put up a replay of my game with Goat where I used phoenixes, so here it is:
http://www.mediafire.com/?yunm5ezx3tz
The main points of the build are this:
I realize I am weak early, so if I see anything other than a FE, I put down a forge with the stargate. If not, I expand, forge, then cannon at the expo. The main thing about the build is it puts you macro-wise equal with the Zerg, which can make a pretty instant win.
I like to go templar tech after. The DTs gives a nice momentum push (much better if you're not a noob and you know how to macro unlike me  ). After that, there is a second push when the templars come out because if they didn't make changelings, you have a feedback/phoenix/DT push. Now you're set end game because you did two powerful pushes, took an expo, blocked their third, and have templar tech out. Throw down tons of gates and now it's kind of do whatever. I like sometimes to get a mothership out because with the phoenixes flying around it's tough to keep overseers alive. If they still do not changeling to get rid of energy, feedback is instant win. If not, just contain for the win.
I like going templar because it can make sure infestors cannot do anything. And the DTs are powerful with feedback/phoenix overhead because overseers just cannot stay alive. Also this has a really broodlord-proof transition because you have tons of gates for archons and stalkers (try archons vs broodlords, they do really good!)
If someone's good I think they can execute this much better and really own!
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On April 27 2010 03:30 shiftY803 wrote:
For PvZ, has anyone tried 10-gate zealot pressure into 1-stargate phoenix harrass? or does using up all those mins on zealots make it prohibitive?
I do it all the time. Usually I get a zealot/sentry mix with the phoenixes which is effective against hydras, which they generally get in response, followed up with an expansion during the harassment and transition into templar tech. Make one void ray if you scout a roach warren.
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New answer: use patch 11.
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just rally phoenixes to circle around an army now.. no need to micro :D
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On May 07 2010 05:54 NightOne wrote:
just rally phoenixes to circle around an army now.. no need to micro :D
Well, it only works against air.
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hahah so sad to see such good work obliterated by one ridiculously strange patch.
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I wonder if PvP is going to devolve into drive-by Phoenix airborne warfare.
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On May 07 2010 06:21 Bibdy wrote:
I wonder if PvP is going to devolve into drive-by Phoenix airborne warfare.
Kind of doubt it. I just played a game to try it out and void rays pretty much destroy phoenixes once they are in your base - micro'd or not you can't get rid of their charge.
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On May 07 2010 05:51 rackdude wrote:
New answer: use patch 11.
just right click.. on.. the ground..
:/
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I did quite a few games with phoenix last night, they don't really seem viable unless you can mass them quickly and safely, not really worth doing off of one base.
The time i use phoenix is as an opener/transition unit, mainly vs zerg to deal with mutas, since i find that all of my 4 or 5 gate pushes, or even 4 gate + robo - whatever, they all fail to a ling/roach/muta combo, with the key being that he always just goes for my aa units first (stalker/sentry/phoenix if i have them) and afterwards, his ground army may be decimated, but his mutas will remain, i lose. This has happened to me over and over. If i pump more AA (stalkers/sentries) and less ground (less on immo/zeals) then i may take out the mutas, but in the end his ground force will prove superior. If i try to expand and defend.. well we know what happens vs zerg if you try that, mutas give 100% map control, uncontested.
So what I have been doing lately is Forge FE on maps that allow it (blistering sands, LT, etc) with a complete wall in + a few cannons to hold off baneling bust or ling/roach spam. if they really go nuts trying to get in, they may kill part of your wall in once or twice, which is fine - youll be pumping out zealots slowly while massing phoenix. So i just tech straight to phoenix while pumping lots from a single gate at first. 2 SG with forge FE, spam phoenix. When I have 4-6, i just run around and kill all his overlords/queens.
At this point they will go mutas and/or hydras. I anticipate this and keep up phoenix production while adding a large amount of gates + getting robo and colossi, charge for zealots, blink for stalkers. If you see corrupters void rays make a nice counter (they fall apart to charged up VR).
All the while that i am doing this my phoenix are scouting and killing queens workers and overlords. In the end I will do a huge push with upgraded chargelots, stalkers, a few sentry, colossi, and leftover phoenix/void ray. At this point the zerg will also have a sizable army of lings, hydras, and mutas (maybe some left over corruptors. My experience is that usually when i am ready to push, and as long as i dont allow him to expand beyond 2 base (or hurt his worker/overlords/queens so badly that it doesn't matter that he is on 3 base) this army composition almost always wins and simply overwhelms the zerg.
The problem is, unless it is a forge FE viable map, i cannot beat a good zerg. roach + ling spam will almost break me (if not outright win the game) and if it doesn't, the transition to mutas will because i simply can't seem to counter both mutas and roaches if they focus fire my AA. The problem here is that, ALL of their units can focus fire all of my anti air units since they are all GTA. Now granted, he will lose his ground army by doing this but all of my air killing units will be down, giving his mutas free reign, and at that point i will never catch up in production of aa units to counter his mutas, and i lose.
So basically as i see it now, being able to mass phoenix and maybe a few VR for building sniping with a forge FE is the only way to counter the current zerg builds. The problem comes in when you get maps that are not forge FE viable (most of them) and are forced to go a normal gate/robo or gate/SG route. Granted i have won with gate/robo, and i have won with gate/sg, however 2-3 queens easily conter void rays on a normal build/push and the roaches/lings will easily counter your ground army, and obviously immortals/zeals are easily countered by spine crawlering up and getting mutas out in time.
So thats my take on phoenixes and pvz, which is where i use them. They have uses in pvt, but it is so rare that i see tanks in pvt which are about the only unit they have worth lifting to disable it. In PvP yes i have seen nony use them effectively, but keep in mind most of those games he would have won regardless, his opponents did really stupid things like spamming mass zealots without charge vs stalkers, which just kited them all day long.
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um.. how exactly you get overun by all that army.. one base ( which 90% of mutaing and roach rushing zerg will have ) wont be able to produce even half what ur saying , and if hes fe... do you just sit in your base, pumping immortals.. and then you qq.. when mutas beat you ?
void rays + phoenix raped mass mutas before patch.. i lost some games.. where i thought i won.. i got early mutas.. + harass.. managed to expand.. and keep harassing.. and my enemy just massed phoenixes and vrs.. oh my god.. how easy my 30+ mutas stack fallen.. and you think that critical mass would obliterate with their glave strikes.. well think again..
your ground army afterwards gets raped by vrs + lift off..
seriously protos crying about mutas.. you can mass zealots of 2 gates 24/7 while teching into vrs.. not only those mass zealots will be able to defend.. against everything but all in roach rush..
if zerg is expanding, he will probably loose right there.. as first 4 zealots come so fast.. unless you rush units.. you wont have things to defend..( eventually you will, but losses will be high, to have any chances vs vrs )
if zerg goes for fast mutas, he have neither gass or minerals to spare..
nor first 5 mutas can finish the game like vrs can..
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EPT
