|
On March 27 2014 09:19 moskonia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2014 07:54 NewSunshine wrote:On March 27 2014 07:36 moskonia wrote:
I never really understood the hype of 3 player maps, I don't really see the advantage they give over 2 player maps or more so to 4 player maps with no close spawns which basically make it a 3 spawn map with no spawn position advantage. Anyways the map does look decent, and congraz on getting into the ladder with it. 4p with no close spawns is essentially a 2p map. The main thing a 3p map does is the exact opposite of a 4p mirror map. With 4p mirror you have multiple spawn combinations, and everything is perfectly symmetric between the two players every time. With 3p you can only have close spawns, the difference is merely which side you're on, and asymmetry has to be accepted because there's no other way. Just depends on what you're looking for and this time, Blizzard wants the latter. I still don't see a point in 3 player maps. Having rotational spawns mean there is luck involved, unlike mirror symmetry, which normally it is best to scout the close spawns first, thus negating luck while still allowing multiple spawns. 2 in 1 maps reduce the luck factor even more, which is good imo. I am all for asymmetry, but I think rotational symmetry is the wrong way to achieve it. In my opinion the reason people are so excited for a 3 player map is the same reason people were so excited about New Polaris, because it's new and weird, and it's a cool gimmick. While seeing it in shourcraft clan wars have made me gain much more respect for the map, I still keep the opinion that the reason it won the poll was because of a gimmick and not map quality. IMO 3 player maps with rotational symmetry (as well as rotational symmetry in general) is a silly concept, and there is nothing it does better than 2 player asymmetrical maps or 4 player maps with 1 spawn disabled.
I feel like you're splitting hairs, really. If there's any serious issue with positional differences, it lay with Blizzard's desire to make air play so dominant in SC2.
|
While there is nothing really significant about this map I'm happy that a 3p map made it into the pool. A breath of a fresh air.
|
|
|
Rotational three player maps are the same as rotational four player maps with cross spawns disabled and increased positional imbalance because all ramps are 45° rather than 30°/60°. I fully agree with moskonia that this is a gimmicky map rather than a good one, and I think the only reason why people don't hate rotational 3/4 player maps as much as completely asymmetric maps is that they don't realize those are actually the same thing. Basically, this is an asymmetric map under the guise of rotational "symmetry".
Let's see how long it lasts...
|
On March 27 2014 21:33 And G wrote:
Rotational three player maps are the same as rotational four player maps with cross spawns disabled and increased positional imbalance because all ramps are 45° rather than 30°/60°. I fully agree with moskonia that this is a gimmicky map rather than a good one, and I think the only reason why people don't hate rotational 3/4 player maps as much as completely asymmetric maps is that they don't realize those are actually the same thing. Basically, this is an asymmetric map under the guise of rotational "symmetry".
Let's see how long it lasts...
oh man yeah, whirlwind was such an awful imbalanced map too
|
I'm talking about positional imbalance, not racial imbalance. Whirlwind with cross spawns disabled would not be a good map, although arguably still better than "Merry Go Round", because at least on Whirlwind NW vs NE was imbalanced the exact same way as SE vs SW.
Maybe post less throwaway one-liners, or at least not in the map forum?
|
Finally another one who gets what I was trying to say. Anyways though, I think the spawn imbalance in WW was pretty small, while it did exist, it's nothing like the one in 3-player maps. A better example would be Antiga, which had quite a difference between spawn locations, which eventually led to it being cross only, which is silly, as a 4 player map that is cross only would be better off as a 2-player map, as the 2 extra spawns don't give you anything but restrictions.
The spawn imbalance on this map was minimized as much as it could have been, but still it's silly to have any unwanted spawn imbalance just because you want your map to be a 3-player one.
|
On March 27 2014 22:45 moskonia wrote:
I think the spawn imbalance in WW was pretty small If you only look at how good a player's chances of winning are, then yes, they were indeed pretty small. In terms of how many options each player had, however, I would say they were quite substantial, and that this made the map feel old and boring rather quickly especially when compared to Frost with its axial symmetry where not only each spawning pattern (vertical, horizontal, cross) inherently plays out differently, but also each player has a comparably large arsenal of viable strategies.
By the way, have there ever been winrate stats for clockwise vs counterclockwise spawns on rotational maps? I don't think I've ever seen those recorded separately.
|
I have never seen any stats about it, and it would be interesting to see, it's just that it would require a very large amount of games to have any significant results because of all the different matchups and positions.
|
I hope you can add a little bit more aesthetics to it.
I always find this tile set looks extremely plain compared to others.
D.point was quite a good looking one imo.
|
On March 28 2014 00:41 ETisME wrote:
I hope you can add a little bit more aesthetics to it.
I always find this tile set looks extremely plain compared to others.
D.point was quite a good looking one imo.
Daedalus is amazing imo, but I think it is too late for this map, I doubt Blizzard will allow changes after showing it to the public, although hopefully since it is not yet on the ladder maybe they will allow.
|
it is always "fun" to see just how much blizz cares about making map makers feel ...
edit:+ Show Spoiler +uhhh.. feel ... uhhh... lost my train of thought looking at the map pools since beta ... uhhh ... duhhh.. it seems they are on a fast train to incorporating new maps ... someone should really make graphs and anal ethical stuff about it + Show Spoiler +guess i should stfu since we do have galaxy and bnet2° .. sigh ..
i'll admit i'm a bit sad that no tl mapmaker(s) cares enough to put up a [D] Map pool evolution discussion thread..
here! in this forum
guess blizz gets it better than i do (since i don't "get it"), they just might be right on: let mapmakers be .. they have no weight/way/say in this
|
On March 28 2014 03:52 enord wrote:
i'll admit i'm a bit sad that no tl mapmaker(s) cares enough to put up a [D] Map pool evolution discussion thread..
here! in this forum
Probably because it's casually (or in Ragoo's case, angrily  ) discussed almost every day in the TL map community skype chat. What's the point of having a thread dedicated to it?
|
I keep hearing about this TL map community skype group, is there any way to get into that skype group?
|
On March 28 2014 05:00 moskonia wrote:
I keep hearing about this TL map community skype group, is there any way to get into that skype group?
You have to know the secret pass code.
|
Is it "I got 2nd place in FPL"? 
|
On March 28 2014 05:00 moskonia wrote:
I keep hearing about this TL map community skype group, is there any way to get into that skype group?
thats pretty cool if there really is a skype group. hopefully there is, cause then we can start seeing some really sick maps coming out if theres a big group of ppl just trying to make good maps and not just blizz cause most blizz maps make me sad. also if there is get the guy who made frost best map out atm.
|
There are already tons of "really sick maps" floating around—just not on the ladder.
|
assumed zerg spawns on red one, terran on 6, doesn't that create huge windows for reaper/hellion aggression on zerg's third (red 3), which forces zerg to expand below red 2, which creates huge drop/siege zone on the expansion which would be the potential 4th? not sure about this map, let's see how it will play out.
|
On March 28 2014 07:14 starslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2014 05:00 moskonia wrote:
I keep hearing about this TL map community skype group, is there any way to get into that skype group? thats pretty cool if there really is a skype group. hopefully there is, cause then we can start seeing some really sick maps coming out if theres a big group of ppl just trying to make good maps and not just blizz cause most blizz maps make me sad. also if there is get the guy who made frost best map out atm.
The chat has existed for years. It includes members of ESV, the now defunct Dream Forge and TPW map teams, Galaxy (hi), Crux, a few prominent indie mapmakers, and some prominent eSports community folks. Where do you think TB found the maps for his current ShoutCraft Clan Wars series?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
