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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
I'm done. I'll stop posting about FRB and shit because obviously everyone is against it. Have a nice day. No one takes anything into consideration. Aside from that. I'll only be posting ideas about abilities and so forth and probably give balance suggestions and I will give a STRONG ARGUMENT over why it should be changed etc. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On July 09 2012 02:59 Danko__ wrote: Thx. Yeah it is true. Polish people. LOL! I don't really like you either. Most of your statements are just theorycrafting. Amazing debate... NOT. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
And thats not just theorycrafting, we are playing this mod here as well. | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On July 09 2012 04:24 Danko__ wrote: I thought you were done already. Yeah I am and you're just provoking me so I am gunna ask you to politely fuck off. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
On July 09 2012 04:29 MNdakota wrote: Yeah I am and you're just provoking me so I am gunna ask you to politely fuck off. Seems like its true what they say about Americans. And im still interested in data you said you can provide. Some aditional knowledge is always good. | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On July 09 2012 04:34 Danko__ wrote: And im still interested in data you said you can provide. Some aditional knowledge is always good. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uIuJ3.jpg) Since you asked. The "BW" economy system is far beyond what you're actually trying to reach. It's even above the SC2 line if it was added. It's no where NEAR the actual "BW" economy system that Kabel is trying to reach. FRB is actually what he is looking for. Green line is FRB. Since workers do mine faster in StarCraft 2, it does make up for it. What I'm trying to say is what we have now is wrong and isn't actually what Kabel is trying to achieve. Everything I'm trying to explain is all in this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=321242 | ||
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
Anyways I love it, and watching the replays has been awesome too. I'd like to suggest one thing I was thinking about. Blink is a cool ability, but it just doesn't seem to fit Dragoons at all. I think Goons should stay as the basic range unit for Protoss. I agree though that there's no need for Stalkers AND Dragoons. Then I was thinking about Dark Templar requiring their own building when in Broodwar they didn't. But then I realized that through warp-in, rushing Dark Templar can be a lot stronger since you can just warp them close to the enemy. DT's, however seem very plain, as they did in Broodwar, but now they have their own building. It feels like they should be able to do something more than just be cloaked, with their own building and all. May I suggest that you allow them to have blink instead of giving it to Dragoons? It could be an upgrade in the Dark Shrine. You could just give them the ability that Zeratul had in the campaign, seeing as you're using the Zeratul model anyways. | ||
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Tausken
United States81 Posts
This mod suffers from an economic balance issue. There is frankly to many minerals, and to few gas. I often find myself expanding in regular Starbow just for the sake of gas while banking tons of minerals. It often seems lik a clash between T1 blobs with 1-5 gas units, rather than a mixture of units which makes the game feel boring, and even reduces micro since all I am doing is marine splitting. This comes from mostly playing Terran and Zerg, I end up with tons of marines or lings, and little to no actual gas units. On July 08 2012 06:48 Danko__ wrote: I have no idea whats point of FRB. Making games long and boring? You cant afford anything with that tiny income, nor its really worth to get more bases with so low income per worker. You choose one path and you are bound to it. Tech switch costs way too much with that. Variety is good. Normally I would agree with you Danko, as FRB can feel slow, but for this mod's sake FRB works. The game currently does not allow variety, you can't tech switch, becuase there is no gas, and you can't really get variety once you obtain that tech, because again you have no gas. Don't get me wrong their are a few issues with FRB. Being that you mine so slowly that bases don't get mined out forever. This can be fixed by simply reducing the amount of minerals in a mineral patch, thereby making bases more important to capture and secure. For a mod that focus's so much on including that "Starbow tries to approach a "BW-feeling" in terms of gameplay and flow of the game." flow where you have zone control and more positional play, there relatively is none in Starbow since you don't get any. I think Terran actually benefits the most from this. As Danko said before about Lurkers they just don't work that well in regular starbow, but it's not that they suck, its that you can't get that many of them. Either you commit your entire gas to nothing but Lurkers or you get barely any Lurkers and like 1-2 other gas units. Terran benefits from this, because their main Zone control is actually free. Spidermines don't cost minerals, and vultures are just mineral basesd. So I can spam them out early game with a quick spidermine upgrade and secure bases, and make it difficult for a Zerg to move around the map early game. I'm just using Terran as an example in my entire thread, but we should want to expand for minerals and gas. I currently feel like the mod only wants me to expand for gas. If we had FRB we could use lurkers, spidermines and other things to defend our expansions, and we could actually experience some better back and forth games, with lurkers and spidermines controlling paths and epic clashes for base control. Rather than just spamming a bunch of T1 with a few gas units. Just my 2 cents after playing some matches | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
In FRB map 4 workers have mined about 335 minerals, Thats 35% less, then in scbw. Try it yourself, dont blindly belive all they say. Edit: Forgot to mention, it was in 6m/5per trip version of FRB, so with 8m/4 per trip that would be even higher differenct. On July 09 2012 05:30 Tausken wrote: Honestly, after playing the FRB variant and the regular for a bit, ive found the FRB to be better. This mod suffers from an economic balance issue. There is frankly to many minerals, and to few gas. I often find myself expanding in regular Starbow just for the sake of gas while banking tons of minerals. It often seems lik a clash between T1 blobs with 1-5 gas units, rather than a mixture of units which makes the game feel boring, and even reduces micro since all I am doing is marine splitting. This comes from mostly playing Terran and Zerg, I end up with tons of marines or lings, and little to no actual gas units. Normally I would agree with you Danko, as FRB can feel slow, but for this mod's sake FRB works. The game currently does not allow variety, you can't tech switch, becuase there is no gas, and you can't really get variety once you obtain that tech, because again you have no gas. Don't get me wrong their are a few issues with FRB. Being that you mine so slowly that bases don't get mined out forever. This can be fixed by simply reducing the amount of minerals in a mineral patch, thereby making bases more important to capture and secure. For a mod that focus's so much on including that "Starbow tries to approach a "BW-feeling" in terms of gameplay and flow of the game." flow where you have zone control and more positional play, there relatively is none in Starbow since you don't get any. I think Terran actually benefits the most from this. As Danko said before about Lurkers they just don't work that well in regular starbow, but it's not that they suck, its that you can't get that many of them. Either you commit your entire gas to nothing but Lurkers or you get barely any Lurkers and like 1-2 other gas units. Terran benefits from this, because their main Zone control is actually free. Spidermines don't cost minerals, and vultures are just mineral basesd. So I can spam them out early game with a quick spidermine upgrade and secure bases, and make it difficult for a Zerg to move around the map early game. I'm just using Terran as an example in my entire thread, but we should want to expand for minerals and gas. I currently feel like the mod only wants me to expand for gas. If we had FRB we could use lurkers, spidermines and other things to defend our expansions, and we could actually experience some better back and forth games, with lurkers and spidermines controlling paths and epic clashes for base control. Rather than just spamming a bunch of T1 with a few gas units. Just my 2 cents after playing some matches Uh, well... i always have feeling, when im playing starbow, that there is too much gas. Im often even leaving just 1 or 2 workers there so i dont end up with 1k gas. Also, i dont recall of me saying that lurkers are bad. They are even too good imho. You get less gas then in sc2 from each base, but well, expanding should and allows you to get more of it. | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On July 09 2012 05:33 Danko__ wrote: In FRB map 4 workers have mined about 335 minerals, Thats 35% less, then in scbw. FRB at the start wasn't intended to have four workers at the start but six instead. So yes, it is almost the same. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
Here is another chart from that topic: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UGkXZ.jpg) Again wrong. Base for serious mod cant rely on not true data. | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On July 09 2012 06:02 Danko__ wrote: Still chart is wrong. And further in time we go, results are getting even worse. How you gonna compare workers later on? You want to multiply workers number of workers for nonbw by 1,5? Even data for sc2 is wrong. 16 workers in sc2 mines 640 minerals in minute, and here its 660 for 12. Where are your sources? Could you please post them? | ||
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Tausken
United States81 Posts
And don't take this the wrong way, but I would love to see your replays or something, I don't possibly understand how anyone could have to much gas, unless your macro is off. In every game ive played versus several people I have never had gas surplus's or talked with anyone who has had gas surplus's. Everyone seems to be suffering the same gas shortage I am. And your last comment You get less gas then in sc2 from each base, but well, expanding should and allows you to get more of it. I agree gas should be gained from expanding, but at the moment I feel that I spam about 5billion marines and I end up expanding for the sake of gas, not for both gas and minerals....Right now it feels more like a game of gas, than of minerals and gas balancing. Part of the integrity that makes games so exciting is the way players have to balance two seperate minerals reliant on each other, currently it feels like the game is just a game of gas. You don't worry about mins. | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On July 08 2012 23:40 Kabel wrote: Roblin, I´m so glad you have returned. I´ve missed your brainstorming  Please continue and brainstorm about a potential forth robotic unit (colossus?) Oh, and please brainstorm about the infantery in the game as well ^^ Right now we have marines, marauders, firebats and ghosts. Marines - low hp, high dps. Anti air. Firebat - High HP, high damage, melee splash attack. Marauder - High hp, just 10 damage to everything. Ghost - Long range, high dmg, cloak, lockdown. The marauder is right now a "plain unit" without anything unique to it. Earlier it did extra damage vs armored. That makes them so good, like walking stimpacked tanks. They destroy everything armored, like lurkers, dragoons, siege tanks and all kinds of static defence. It kinda nullifies the concept of area control, since they (extremely easy) wreck everything that tries to control an area ^^ The reason it is in the game is that Dragoons outrange marines in bunkers. If you put a marauder in it, they have the same range. Also, the barrack feels empty with only 3 infantery units. (perhaps not an argument) Without the marauder, Terran always have to go mech vs protoss. I would love that the marauder added something unique and useful to the Terran race. Firebat already have high HP, so that does not make the Marauder unique. Althought, everything must not be fancy and unique and hocus pocus. I just feel that the marauder (or a forth barrack unit) might add something more to the Terran race and that it is an area that can be improved upon. I played and/or spectated a few games, asked some questions etc. so appearently the marine was thought too strong and had its hp nerfed at some point, which caused bio in general to be pretty weak. now, im sure there was good reason for nerfing the marine, so I won't touch on that (+1 range on mutas though, where did that come from?) anywho, the important information is this: "The reason it is in the game is that Dragoons outrange marines in bunkers. If you put a marauder in it, they have the same range." "Without the marauder, Terran always have to go mech vs protoss." so we are mostly discussing TvP then? the first problem is actually really easily solved, just make bunkers give +2 range instead of +1, or make an upgrade which unlocks +2 range. that way marines can defend against range-dragoons. besides, stronger base-defence is one of the points with starbow, right? and it probably wont mess up TvZ in any way. (unless you want dragoons to outrange marines in bunkers in which case this shall be ignored) the more difficult problem is the second. how does one make bio viable vs toss? the core issue lies in the fact that the marine is a glass cannon. that makes it susceptible to AoE in a way such that if the enemy has any sort of AoE the marines are just not there in the battle anymore. this makes part of the terran bio just not viable in mid-lategame. how can this be balanced up? well, either by introducing something which keeps the marines alive a little longer (medivacs) or something which nullifies the enemy AoE (ghosts) or by killing the enemy army just as fast as your own dies (marauder) each of these solutions have their own unique problems though: healing would be incredibly overpowered if it could heal many units at the same time, and if it cannot then it is still mostly useless against AoE. one mistake in nullifying the enemy energy means the enemy still has a few storms left, which kills you. the very powerful units will be very powerful in situations where they do not need to be very powerful. the solution: make marines more well-rounded and less glass-cannony (lets say, +50% health and -33% damage (notice: new health = 3/2 old health and new dps = 2/3 old dps, thus combat efficiency stays the same)) and let the marine do +1 damage to air units (to better defend against harrass and make the marine more AAish) and additionally introduce the marauder as the anti-ground unit which has slightly better stats than the marine overall, but cannot attack air. in other words, let the marauder be the boring unit, make the marine the fun one instead. the goal I would hope to achieve by this is: 1. make mainly marauders vs ground army, mainly marines vs air army. 2. marines melt slower to AoE than before, thus making the core unit more viable in TvP (but still melt if not properly microed, kind of like hydras) so the role list looks like this: marine: dps/Anti-air marauder: dps/Anti-ground firebat: tank/AoE (should only do minimal damage against non-light units, since the role is to tank damage, not deal it.) ghost: caster/support instead of this: marine: dps/Anti-everything marauder: tank/dps/Anti-armoured firebat: tank/AoE ghost: caster/support in short: skew the bio-deathball towards more health, more specialized damage. do note that even with these changes it is very much not recommended to fight a siege-line with marines and marauders. to battle such things I would recommend drop-play and skirmish tactics, but if I got it right then thats exactly what you wanted. the point is that these changes make bio-play less vulnerable against late-game toss while not increasing their actual combat efficiency. On July 09 2012 06:03 Tausken wrote: Sorry Danko if that was not you. I remembered someone mentioning lurkers being bad. If that was not you I apologise for saying that. And don't take this the wrong way, but I would love to see your replays or something, I don't possibly understand how anyone could have to much gas, unless your macro is off. In every game ive played versus several people I have never had gas surplus's or talked with anyone who has had gas surplus's. Everyone seems to be suffering the same gas shortage I am. And your last comment I agree gas should be gained from expanding, but at the moment I feel that I spam about 5billion marines and I end up expanding for the sake of gas, not for both gas and minerals....Right now it feels more like a game of gas, than of minerals and gas balancing. Part of the integrity that makes games so exciting is the way players have to balance two seperate minerals reliant on each other, currently it feels like the game is just a game of gas. You don't worry about mins. I "played a few matches" just now too, my experience is that I only ran out of gas when I hit hive tech and started building ultras, not before that when I went only hydras out of 3 hatcheries and 2 gas, as a matter of fact, I was banking gas and getting upgrades while doing this too. (with some drones, so not all larvae went into hydras, but still...) since my experiences clash with yours, how about gathering some more data and adjusting our play before jumping to conclusions, no? edit: as for the fourth robotic unit: I recommend a supportive caster of some kind, the robo tech lacks a caster, but needs absolutely no more firepower, it would be especially good if it could be skewed towards anti-air simply because the only combat robotic unit is extremely anti-ground. my suggestion: colossus available with no extra tech or share tech requirement with reaver colossus has no auto-attack colossus has 3 abilities which can be set to auto-cast (only 1 can be set to auto-cast at a time) and have a 0.5 second cooldown 1. replenish shield: gives 100 shield to a allied protoss unit that have less than 50% shields. (cost: 10 energy) 2. laser-beam: deals 40 damage to target ground enemy or 60 damage to target air-enemy. (cost: 10 energy) 3. replenish energy: deplete the shields of allied unit with full shields, gain 10 energy, +20 additional energy if target unit was a building. (cost: no energy) in combat you can choose between healing 20 units (probably to full shields) or dealing 800 damage total over a period of 10 seconds. (12 marauders worth of dps) this unit requires attention (not much micro, just attention), as if you leave iton any one mode it will either be a. useless in battle (because it is draining shields and not doing anything useful) b. depleted on energy after 10 seconds. so it fulfills the criteria of: harder to use better in small groups balances robo tech and im happy with that | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
Seems like i made mistake earlier, and forgot about difference of ingame timers. After second testing i have to say bw income per worker is still higher then in sc2 IN REAL TIME (but much closer then i thought). Tusken: I think Kabel have posted our replays on previous page. | ||
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haitike
Spain2731 Posts
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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nocrA
Italy27 Posts
On July 09 2012 06:03 MNdakota wrote: Where are your sources? Could you please post them? The data on the FRB thread is in contrast for example with this data: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=83287 ![[image loading]](http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/7841/picture2ok6.png) the map of the test is python with 9 minerals per base at 27 workers(3 per patch) for all three races we have about 6000 minerals per 5 minutes: so it's (6000/5)/27 to know the minerals mined per worker per real minute (as you can read in the thread) which gives 44.4 minerals/minute when you have 3 on each patch. For 1 patch fully saturated it's 3x44.4=133.3 minerals/minute here it's 106. at 9 workers(1 per patch) we have about 2900 for five minutes so it's 64.4 and not 54 maximum like in the second chart at 18 workers(2 per patch) it's about 4500 so 50 minerals per worker/minute so 100 per patch(with two workers) so this time the two graph agree the data about sc2 seems right graph on this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191702 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sw8lw.png) As you can see here it's about 5700 minerals per 5 minutes for 24 workers(full saturation) so (5700/5)/8=142.5 minerals per fully saturated patch/minute about 4550 for 16 workers so (4550/8)/5=113.75 minerals per patch with 2 workers/minute | ||
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schaf
Germany1326 Posts
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