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On January 21 2012 03:32 Kabel wrote:
How can the Colossus become a more interesting unit?
Make it unable too walk over units?
Make it deal extremely high damage vs one target instead of splash?
Super slow attack but high damage?
Make it´s head rotate really slow?
What about giving it void ray-style attack? This was it's original design and makes the unit much more compelling IMO.
Barring that, I suggest a few options:
If you keep it high supply massive unit, then make it move slower but do huger damage.
Or, you could make the colossus less supply and less hp, and make the reaver larger supply, bigger, and slower moving.
I like the rotation and slow attack ideas as well. I also suprisingly like the non-splash idea, since splash overlaps with the reaver.
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So right now if you lose your first tumor it's gg no re at spreading creep?
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On July 08 2012 05:43 nucLeaRTV wrote:
So right now if you lose your first tumor it's gg no re at spreading creep?
Just make a queen.
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Still think that you gain too much money and it's really spammy. Deathball ready for combat. Hopefully something like FRB comes back or just bring back FRB completely.
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I have no idea whats point of FRB. Making games long and boring? You cant afford anything with that tiny income, nor its really worth to get more bases with so low income per worker.
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My thoughts:
ZvZ: Banelings seem a bit too good. They are good against every single hatch tech unit [lings, spines, other banes, hydras]. Queens are okay vs banelings but mass queen won't work for obvious reasons. [Gives up map control since they can't be offensive and they still die to mass lings]. Every ZvZ will have to open with ling/bane.
PvZ: Mutas seem very strong. They seem stronger than they were in BW. They can contain for a large amount of time and are gas heavy, which should allow the zerg to grab a couple of extra bases. Even rushing sair and getting goons will still result in you getting pinned in your base for a while. Protoss also can't spend gas on anything early on except for research. There are no more sentries which are the primary gas dump for Protoss. This results in a huge amount of archons when the tech becomes available because of the banked gas.
TvZ: Seems a lot more BW-esque, except marines are a good deal stronger. Vulture and mines seem even better than they are before since Zerg has no detection until lair. The swarm guardian can be sniped by vikings and can't save itself by casting swarm. Vikings can block both broodlords and swarm guardians, and ultralisks have lost their splash damage so it seems a lot harder to fight late game. Banelings are weaker due to mines+vultures. It feels like BW TvP in the regard that Zerg is completely stuck until Lair tech, much like Protoss is stuck until they get obs. I'm undecided on how strong mutalisks are. With the marine buff and clumping, they seem to suck even more against marines, but they harrass much much better.
Mining seemed really weird. Saturation seems to get reached very early on.
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On July 08 2012 06:48 Danko__ wrote:
I have no idea whats point of FRB. Making games long and boring? You cant afford anything with that tiny income, nor its really worth to get more bases with so low income per worker.
Are you kidding me? Ugh.
I don't think you understand that with the new income, it becomes way too spammy in the beginning. This allows you to stay on two or three bases and still be effective anyway. You go towards the 200/200 too quickly which is fucking retarded to play and watch.
Especially with the changes to things like the factory cost, vultures can be easily massed and spider mines just rape everything.
Another thing to note that it all depends on the player watching. I heard the EU just turtles 24/7 but it seems to be different on NA. Also another thing is that it isn't hard to make workers constantly. How hard is that? Bases would in fact be easier to take since the lower income. Static defense becomes much more viable especially for zerg.
Mining seemed really weird. Saturation seems to get reached very early on.
I completely agree and I hate it. Bases should be a progress. You set them up and it's a development process until that base becomes fully optimal.
This "BW" sucks with SC2. Workers mine too quickly for it to be the same as BW. Capicé?
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On July 08 2012 07:58 MNdakota wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 06:48 Danko__ wrote:
I have no idea whats point of FRB. Making games long and boring? You cant afford anything with that tiny income, nor its really worth to get more bases with so low income per worker. Are you kidding me? Ugh. I don't think you understand that with the new income, it becomes way too spammy in the beginning. This allows you to stay on two or three bases and still be effective anyway. You go towards the 200/200 too quickly which is fucking retarded to play and watch. Especially with the changes to things like the factory cost, vultures can be easily massed and spider mines just rape everything. Another thing to note that it all depends on the player watching. I heard the EU just turtles 24/7 but it seems to be different on NA. Also another thing is that it isn't hard to make workers constantly. How hard is that? Bases would in fact be easier to take since the lower income. Static defense becomes much more viable especially for zerg. I completely agree and I hate it. Bases should be a progress. You set them up and it's a development process until that base becomes fully optimal. This "BW" sucks with SC2. Workers mine too quickly for it to be the same as BW. Capicé?
Is it possible to have a FWB mod released for it? I would like to test it out. In theory it sounds better but I'm not sure how it would be in practice. Thanks.
TvZ seems a bit weird at mid-game. I feel like zerg can only be defensive during that stage. Mines own everything on the ground except for hydras and hydras die to marines.
Lurkers can't really hit marines since you can run them all a lot faster and stutter step
Lurkers can block drops but that's about it
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On July 08 2012 08:08 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 07:58 MNdakota wrote:On July 08 2012 06:48 Danko__ wrote:
I have no idea whats point of FRB. Making games long and boring? You cant afford anything with that tiny income, nor its really worth to get more bases with so low income per worker. Are you kidding me? Ugh. I don't think you understand that with the new income, it becomes way too spammy in the beginning. This allows you to stay on two or three bases and still be effective anyway. You go towards the 200/200 too quickly which is fucking retarded to play and watch. Especially with the changes to things like the factory cost, vultures can be easily massed and spider mines just rape everything. Another thing to note that it all depends on the player watching. I heard the EU just turtles 24/7 but it seems to be different on NA. Also another thing is that it isn't hard to make workers constantly. How hard is that? Bases would in fact be easier to take since the lower income. Static defense becomes much more viable especially for zerg. Mining seemed really weird. Saturation seems to get reached very early on. I completely agree and I hate it. Bases should be a progress. You set them up and it's a development process until that base becomes fully optimal. This "BW" sucks with SC2. Workers mine too quickly for it to be the same as BW. Capicé? Is it possible to have a FWB mod released for it? I would like to test it out. In theory it sounds better but I'm not sure how it would be in practice. Thanks. TvZ seems a bit weird at mid-game. I feel like zerg can only be defensive during that stage. Mines own everything on the ground except for hydras and hydras die to marines. Lurkers can't really hit marines since you can run them all a lot faster and stutter step Lurkers can block drops but that's about it
FRB.* Yes I do agree with some of your points especially being lurkers seem to have a slow attack animation which makes dodging them quite easy.
Please bring an FRB variant on the NA server for those who want to try and play on it please.
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On July 08 2012 07:58 MNdakota wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 06:48 Danko__ wrote:
I have no idea whats point of FRB. Making games long and boring? You cant afford anything with that tiny income, nor its really worth to get more bases with so low income per worker. Are you kidding me? Ugh. I don't think you understand that with the new income, it becomes way too spammy in the beginning. This allows you to stay on two or three bases and still be effective anyway. You go towards the 200/200 too quickly which is fucking retarded to play and watch. Especially with the changes to things like the factory cost, vultures can be easily massed and spider mines just rape everything. Another thing to note that it all depends on the player watching. I heard the EU just turtles 24/7 but it seems to be different on NA. Also another thing is that it isn't hard to make workers constantly. How hard is that? Bases would in fact be easier to take since the lower income. Static defense becomes much more viable especially for zerg. I completely agree and I hate it. Bases should be a progress. You set them up and it's a development process until that base becomes fully optimal. This "BW" sucks with SC2. Workers mine too quickly for it to be the same as BW. Capicé?
I have no idea what do you mean by "spammy", but FRB limits variety alot. You cant support even 2 gates and workers production early, or production workers from 2 bases and SOME defence. Your each workers gives you there less then 30minerals/min and with 15bt you need about 7 workers to have enough income to produce just workers (not counting macro mechanics and suplies). It takes so long for expos and workers to pay for themselves. Whenever i look at timer in game with FRB im like "wtf, its 20th min already?".
Everything can be "massed" same way vultures can. You have enough of resources to prevent that, and mines are not getting better trough game, you can easly counter them.
I have no idea why you are implying we are not building workers on EU. We are, at least i am, and have to say, workers are SO FREAKING EXPENSIVE in FRB. Im not saying thats bad, but they are just not worth the price after some point.
Bases easier to take cause of lower income? You have to invest more. You will get money back later, and why would i expand when i have already half of my suply locked in workers with 3-4 bases.
Also i never heard of that EU is more into "turtling" then NA.
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On July 08 2012 09:42 Danko__ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 07:58 MNdakota wrote:On July 08 2012 06:48 Danko__ wrote:
I have no idea whats point of FRB. Making games long and boring? You cant afford anything with that tiny income, nor its really worth to get more bases with so low income per worker. Are you kidding me? Ugh. I don't think you understand that with the new income, it becomes way too spammy in the beginning. This allows you to stay on two or three bases and still be effective anyway. You go towards the 200/200 too quickly which is fucking retarded to play and watch. Especially with the changes to things like the factory cost, vultures can be easily massed and spider mines just rape everything. Another thing to note that it all depends on the player watching. I heard the EU just turtles 24/7 but it seems to be different on NA. Also another thing is that it isn't hard to make workers constantly. How hard is that? Bases would in fact be easier to take since the lower income. Static defense becomes much more viable especially for zerg. Mining seemed really weird. Saturation seems to get reached very early on. I completely agree and I hate it. Bases should be a progress. You set them up and it's a development process until that base becomes fully optimal. This "BW" sucks with SC2. Workers mine too quickly for it to be the same as BW. Capicé? I have no idea what do you mean by "spammy", but FRB limits variety alot. You cant support even 2 gates and workers production early, or production workers from 2 bases and SOME defence. Your each workers gives you there less then 30minerals/min and with 15bt you need about 7 workers to have enough income to produce just workers (not counting macro mechanics and suplies). It takes so long for expos and workers to pay for themselves. Whenever i look at timer in game with FRB im like "wtf, its 20th min already?".
When I mean spammy, I mean that you're getting minerals TOO quickly. Yes, you can support 2 gates and workers in the beginning. Just don't queue more than 1 unit in that facility.
It's not limiting variety at all, you're just getting to that "variety" a little bit slower which prevents the 200/200 army.
Another thing is that having less gas income too, spell casters become much more important and meaningful to the game. Unlike it is now where you literally have 20 spell casters in your army. "TERRIBLE TERRIBLE DAMAGE!"
Gas units become important. Because you have less of them and of course since you have upgraded siege tanks, units like the reaver and a lurker. These units make up for themselves. But since you have a lot more units like these. It becomes more like how StarCraft 2 is now.
When you get minerals too quickly, the game because more of a "deathball" that people complain about in vanilla StarCraft 2 except this time it's just with different units. We're only making it worse.
You simply can't micro those kinds of battles effectively. Micro becomes more important then giving a skillful player more reward. Static defense is more capable of holding early attacks just like in Brood War especially for zerg giving them the opportunity to make workers constantly.
You gain army too quickly.
Everything can be "massed" same way vultures can. You have enough of resources to prevent that, and mines are not getting better trough game, you can easly counter them.
No comment.
I have no idea why you are implying we are not building workers on EU. We are, at least i am, and have to say, workers are SO FREAKING EXPENSIVE in FRB. Im not saying thats bad, but they are just not worth the price after some point.
What do you mean they're not worth the price? They are both 50 minerals on non-FRB and 50 minerals on FRB and grant you greater income.
Same goes for non-FRB. After a certain amount, you shouldn't be building anymore unless you're going to expand again.
Bases easier to take cause of lower income? You have to invest more. You will get money back later, and why would i expand when i have already half of my suply locked in workers with 3-4 bases.
Yes, when you expand. You're taking a risk and of course you can always cancel the expansion if something goes wrong. Same goes for both variants.
I hope you also know that the "BW" economy system that we're using now is far ahead of what it actually is in Brood War and I have data to prove it.
Seriously, why can't we have a map with FRB on it? Just one and I'll be happy. Thanks!
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When I mean spammy, I mean that you're getting minerals TOO quickly. Yes, you can support 2 gates and workers in the beginning. Just don't queue more than 1 unit in that facility.
Worker BT is 15 in FRB, 33 for zealot. You need 1 pylon every 4 zealots (lets skip suply for workers, assumning you will start loosing some suply at some point of time). (100/33+100/33+50/13+100/66)x60 =650 minerals/min. You need more then 20 workers on minerals to support that. To support constant production of workers and pylons and units from one gateway you need about 470 income. Thats about 15 workers.
It's not limiting variety at all, you're just getting to that "variety" a little bit slower which prevents the 200/200 army.
You choose one path and you are bound to it. Tech switch costs way too much with that. Variety is good.
Another thing is that having less gas income too, spell casters become much more important and meaningful to the game. Unlike it is now where you literally have 20 spell casters in your army. "TERRIBLE TERRIBLE DAMAGE!"
I like expensive and powerfull casters, but there are other ways to make them valuable then making games 3 times longer.
When you get minerals too quickly, the game because more of a "deathball" that people complain about in vanilla StarCraft 2 except this time it's just with different units. We're only making it worse.
Some people will turtle anyway, with FRB for 40mins or with BW income for 20. Our job is to make "deathballs" less viable and spreading units, bases more rewarding imho.
You simply can't micro those kinds of battles effectively. Micro becomes more important then giving a skillful player more reward. Static defense is more capable of holding early attacks just like in Brood War especially for zerg giving them the opportunity to make workers constantly.
You gain army too quickly.
You just want to lenghten early/early-mid game, and thats not solution.Micro rewarding units are solution. You cant have each unit requiring to be microed trough whole game. Micro should be different in different stages of game, depending on situation.
No comment.
No comment.
What do you mean they're not worth the price? They are both 50 minerals on non-FRB and 50 minerals on FRB and grant you greater income.
FRB grants you greater income?
Same goes for non-FRB. After a certain amount, you shouldn't be building anymore unless you're going to expand again.
Yeah, but 50% of suply in workers is too much. Thats my point.
I hope you also know that the "BW" economy system that we're using now is far ahead of what it actually is in Brood War and I have data to prove it.
Give us any data you have. Any data we can get can be usefull.
Seriously, why can't we have a map with FRB on it? Just one and I'll be happy. Thanks!
I dont mind that. I never had anything against uploading both FRB and BW starbows. You can also ask Kabel if he can change default settings to "slower" as well in FRB.
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I don't think you understand that with the new income, it becomes way too spammy in the beginning. This allows you to stay on two or three bases and still be effective anyway. You go towards the 200/200 too quickly which is fucking retarded to play and watch.
I try to play an average of ca 3-4 games per day. So far, of all games I´ve been involved in, we have reached 200/200 only a few times with the BW-economy. And I usually play with master - platinum players. Sure, you can reach 200/200 with one base. Or with 5 bases. It all depends on the time you devote to it. Doesn´t matter if you have 100 mineralers as income per minute, or 1000 per minute. Eventually you will reach 200/200 if nothing happens. (Besides, is 200/200 really a problematic scenario, if it happens sometimes?)
The thing with having more bases than your opponent is that you will be able to produce or reproduce your army faster than your enemy. Its all about time. Thats the basic principle, to prevent the opponent from expanding while you expand yourself. (Of course)
In SC2 (and in FRB), there is no reason to have more than 4 bases, since each base requires 27 workers. Thats half your supply. It doesn´t matther if the income per base is low or not. You still reach a maximum economy of four fully saturated bases, no matter if each base gives you 400 minerals per minute or 800 minerals per minute. From that position, you will just need to invest in armies and NOT in economy.
Sure, one might say that each base must not be fully saturated. True. In that case, more bases can be taken. But that applies to the BW economy as well.
In BW economy, each base requires LESS workers, which means that you can have more fully saturated bases.
Since each worker in BW generates almost twice the income than a FRB worker, having only a few BW workers in a base has a significant impact on your economy. Having only a few FRB workers on a base adds very little to your total income.
Simply put, the FRB economy requires loads of workers and supply. That is the major problem.
Mining seemed really weird. Saturation seems to get reached very early on.
In BW economy, players start with 6 workers. Each base requires 18 workers on minerals and 3 workers on gas. A total of 21.
To build 15 workers, each with a build time of 20 seconds, takes 300 seconds.
In FRB players start with 6 workers. A base requires 27 workers. 24 on minerals and 3 on gas. To build 21 workers, each with a build time of 17 seconds, takes 357 seconds.
To saturate the main base in BW economy takes one minute faster than in FRB/SC2. Although this speed is also increased with Calldown SCV, Chroono boost etc.
Is the difference to vast? Is the saturation time a problem? Does it have a bad impact on the game? Maybe it has, feel free to tell me why.
I hope you also know that the "BW" economy system that we're using now is far ahead of what it actually is in Brood War and I have data to prove it.
Right now I use the exact values that is used in the SC2BW - MOD. The only difference is that workers now have a build time of 20 seconds, instead of 17. The BW economy uses 9 mineral patches in each base. I use 8. (To make each base require fewer workers)
I would be happy to improve the system. Please show the data.
Seriously, why can't we have a map with FRB on it? Just one and I'll be happy. Thanks!
For development purpose I would prefer that both NA and EU uses the same economy. So we speak the same language in this thread, so to say. I will continue use the BW economy unless someone convinces me of a far superior economic system.
However, later on, once the MOD gets a little more stable, an alternative version with FRB can be uploaded, for those who would enjoy it.
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On July 05 2012 16:31 Kabel wrote:What shall we do with the Colossus?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GyJ0n.jpg) I love the look of the unit. Its a nice addition to the Protoss race and it fits the role of being a massive ground unit. Earlier in the MOD I had it removed. But robotic tech felt kinda emtpy without it. But I can't stand how the colossus works. You can´t micro it and it is so vulernable and expensive that the cliff walk thing is rarely used. Players just keep them in their balls of death. Some players say things like this after they won with a huge ball of Colossi and Dragoons: "I had too do nothing. Just A-move and the Colossi melts everything. Why waste time microing reavers when this shit is so much easier?" I´m not saying it must become a super advanced unit that requires loads of APM to manage. After all, the Archon does roughly the same thing: A-move and it splashes everything. But still the Archon feels like a great unit. I just want the Colossus to be simple AND more useable.
How can the Colossus become a more interesting unit?
Make it unable too walk over units? Make it deal extremely high damage vs one target instead of splash? Super slow attack but high damage? Make the head rotate really slow? Make it able too walk out of the army too do some cliff raiding or even harass the enemy army before the big fight begins? O_o
ok, so this post presents a very vague question.
"how can the colossus become a more interesting unit"
we don't like vague questions.
so step one to solving the problem is to actually clearly and firmly state what the problem is.
so lets extract the important bits from your post:
"I love the look of the unit"
"robotic tech felt kinda empty without it"
"I cant stand how the colossus works"
"cant micro it"
"cliff walk thing rarely used" (due to being expensive and fragile)
colossus encourages balls of death due to ease of use.
now we take these bits of information and translate them to more official language:
(1) the colossus shall not have it size or model changed.
(2) the colossus should be robotic tech.
(3) the colossus should be changed mechanic-wise.
(4) the colossus should be given more options.
(5) cliff walk is currently redundant.
(6) the colossus should be efficient in small armies, but preferably not useless in large ones.
if you disagree with the translation, think twice, because it is quite accurate.
excellent, we now have firm rules which dictate how the solution should look.
the solution is now fairly easy, we are looking for:
a big, high supply unit which complements other robotic units through mechanics which are not auto-attacking from range with splash and where cliff walk is either removed or put to use in some way.
all of the following options (and many more not listed) solve the problems (all of them include scrapping cliff walk btw):
a spell caster (because robo tech has no spell-caster)
an anti-air unit (because robo tech has no anti-air)
an anti-air spell caster (both of the above)
a supportive healer (because it fulfills condition (3) and (4) superbly, heals shields perhaps?)
an auto-attacker without splash (boring solution but works)
etc.
oh, and hello kabel, Roblin have returned with his walls of texts.
I might not have the time to actually play much, but when you post questions such as the one quoted I will make sure to give my opinion and analysis.
edit:
oh, and regarding the ongoing debate of BW eco vs FRB eco:
it's just preference.
MNDakota wants new bases to take time before paying off, kabel advocates the game should be played hogging bases and territory.
takes time before paying off = risky to do
thus, MNDakota advocates that new bases should be risky.
(new bases is risky) + (game played by hogging bases and territory) = false
thus your opinions clearly clash and it is impossible to say which one is better, simply because the two economy systems cannot be compared on an even, unopiniated, playing field.
the real problem here is not "which is better? FRB or BW?"
but rather it is "which is better? new bases are risky or hogging bases and territory?"
in conclusion: it's just preference.
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Roblin, I´m so glad you have returned. I´ve missed your brainstorming 
Please continue and brainstorm about a potential forth robotic unit (colossus?)
Oh, and please brainstorm about the infantery in the game as well ^^
Right now we have marines, marauders, firebats and ghosts.
Marines - low hp, high dps. Anti air.
Firebat - High HP, high damage, melee splash attack.
Marauder - High hp, just 10 damage to everything.
Ghost - Long range, high dmg, cloak, lockdown.
The marauder is right now a "plain unit" without anything unique to it. Earlier it did extra damage vs armored. That makes them so good, like walking stimpacked tanks. They destroy everything armored, like lurkers, dragoons, siege tanks and all kinds of static defence. It kinda nullifies the concept of area control, since they (extremely easy) wreck everything that tries to control an area ^^
The reason it is in the game is that Dragoons outrange marines in bunkers. If you put a marauder in it, they have the same range. Also, the barrack feels empty with only 3 infantery units. (perhaps not an argument) Without the marauder, Terran always have to go mech vs protoss. I would love that the marauder added something unique and useful to the Terran race. Firebat already have high HP, so that does not make the Marauder unique.
Althought, everything must not be fancy and unique and hocus pocus. I just feel that the marauder (or a forth barrack unit) might add something more to the Terran race and that it is an area that can be improved upon.
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On July 09 2012 00:43 Laertes wrote:
Kabel, I have still not recieved the update with my abilities and your balance.
Thats because I have not added them yet. Most of your ideas were lategame units/abilities, like the Dark Archon, Defencive Matrix and the Arbiter ability. Right now I am focusing on the early/mid game, to find a balance in that and a balance in the core units. We are also focusing much on what of the core units shall be in the game, and what shall not. Later on, when I focus more on developing the lategame, some of your ideas might be implemented.
You said you would continue add stuff on your version of the map. If you have more ideas you wanna show me, just PM me and we try them.
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Replays of the day:
http://replayfu.com/r/kC1wjh
http://replayfu.com/r/0X2Pbm
Hopefully you can watch them without having the latest version of the MOD. (For people in other regions outside EU)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4MyZu.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eP6R8.jpg)
This is how the game looks right now, with all it´s current balance and everything. Me and Danko who play are platinum and master rank.
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EPT
