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Replay of the day:
http://replayfu.com/r/Mxrjtr
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CGTCd.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YLKrU.jpg)
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Thanks for all the charts and graphic over the income. The more input and info we get about current issues with the economy, the better can it be developed. If anyone wanna do some more investigation, feel free to look at the income ratio of gas compared to minerals, both in the current economy used in Starbow, in FRB, in Sc2 and maybe even in BW!
Cause right now, some players claim they have too much gas. Others have too little. Probably something needs to be adjusted so we find a good balance in it.
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On July 09 2012 22:25 Kabel wrote:Replay of the day:
http://replayfu.com/r/Mxrjtr------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for all the charts and graphic over the income. The more input and info we get about current issues with the economy, the better can it be developed. If anyone wanna do some more investigation, feel free to look at the income ratio of gas compared to minerals, both in the current economy used in Starbow, in FRB, in Sc2 and maybe even in BW!
Cause right now, some players claim they have too much gas. Others have too little. Probably something needs to be adjusted so we find a good balance in it.
I could upload some replays if you're interested. I have some mutalisk based games of mine but I guess they're pretty awesome.
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On July 09 2012 23:35 MNdakota wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 22:25 Kabel wrote:Replay of the day:
http://replayfu.com/r/Mxrjtr------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for all the charts and graphic over the income. The more input and info we get about current issues with the economy, the better can it be developed. If anyone wanna do some more investigation, feel free to look at the income ratio of gas compared to minerals, both in the current economy used in Starbow, in FRB, in Sc2 and maybe even in BW!
Cause right now, some players claim they have too much gas. Others have too little. Probably something needs to be adjusted so we find a good balance in it. I could upload some replays if you're interested. I have some mutalisk based games of mine but I guess they're pretty awesome.
Replays are always welcome 
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I think gas income is quite fine. I was afraid one gas will reduce number of possible openings, but after some tests i have to say: Its not that hard to adjust, its still possible to control gas income just by controling number of workers in gases. Also i think we will have to tweak some gas costs for zerg as right now its really comon to see 4 base zerg vs 2 base terra/toss (4 gases vs 2 is quite a difference of potential :D).
Also, expanding. It feels its very hard to do so in pvz or tvz. Im not sure if thats matter of maps (probably, partially) or races design. 3rd should hard to take, but right now zerg is so hella scary with speedlings, lurkers and drops..
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On July 09 2012 23:48 MNdakota wrote:
Kabel, could you also tell UloseTheGame to upload the latest version. It seems you guys over on the EU have a different version than us.
I can always upload myself also.
On EU are we playing and making adjustments on a daily basis. Right now we are testing how the game is played with the Stalker instead of the Dragoon, and the Immortal instead of the Colossus. Things changes and are experimented with from day to day. I´ve have to mail the mod to UloseTheGame every day, and he will get quite a work updating all maps. So I generally aim to send an update to NA ca every week. But I will get an update ready for NA in a day or two.
On July 10 2012 00:54 Danko__ wrote:
I think gas income is quite fine. I was afraid one gas will reduce number of possible openings, but after some tests i have to say: Its not that hard to adjust, its still possible to control gas income just by controling number of workers in gases. Also i think we will have to tweak some gas costs for zerg as right now its really comon to see 4 base zerg vs 2 base terra/toss (4 gases vs 2 is quite a difference of potential :D).
Also, expanding. It feels its very hard to do so in pvz or tvz. Im not sure if thats matter of maps (probably, partially) or races design. 3rd should hard to take, but right now zerg is so hella scary with speedlings, lurkers and drops..
As Protoss I fear to push out or expand at my third too early vs zerg. As Terran I fear of pushing out or expand at the third too early vs both Zerg and protoss. ^^
Expanding shall always be a risk. If the opponent scouts it early, the expansion can be in trouble. But right now I feel that it is an extremely high risk to expand at the third as Protoss or Terran. The units and features who were added to the game to secure areas; spider mines, lurkers, better siege tanks, chrono boosted cannons does a good job at defending.. but still..
One way of adding a defenders advantage can be to reduce the build time of expansions? Right now they are at 100 seconds. Maybe 80 instead, so they have a less vulnerable period..
As Roblin pointed out in an earlier post on the previous page; shall expansions be easy too grab, or shall it be a high risk involved in doing so? So far in the development I have had the goal to make it easier to expand. (Lowering the risk of expanding for all races, thus making the game encourage more expansions and area play)
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Uh, well, im afraid to expand vs zerg cause of runbys/drops and LURKERS, which are freaking unkillable :D. I mean, really. They are so tough. Its is insanely hard to kill them, even when unburrowed. And once they burrow, they rape everything. Dont know if thats size of aoe, atk speed, range, or what, but i would prefer them faster, and less durable. Also maybe bit more expensive.
Also, when T has sieged tanks he is fine. Sieged tanks are badass. Toss dont have good enough area control unit. Maybe with time we will learn how to wall properly (at least i will, as im not used to it at all :D), but right now i think we need more and better maps, with easier 3rd.
Im really against reducing BT of nexus/hatch/cc. It should be risky, should require time to pay off, we should have to find why its too difficult right now.
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On July 10 2012 02:09 Danko__ wrote:
Im really against reducing BT of nexus/hatch/cc. It should be risky, should require time to pay off, we should have to find why its too difficult right now.
In Brood War, a two base protoss or terran was completely normal against a 4 base zerg etc.
Terran would normally push out once they get their first or second science vessel. Reaver drops was pretty common against zerg.
I don't think terran or protoss are having a hard time against zerg as both races usually have their siege unit out so they know it's safe. The reaver for protoss and the siege tank for terran.
Lurkers can be quite the investment as about four of them cost 500 minerals which is about 20 zerglings that we are forgetting instead. I forget the gas amount but it does add up.
I feel like being a bit aggressive to zerg early on is powerful. Try going a quick stargate with corsairs to snipe some overlords or go starport for cloaked wraiths. You can really throw off the zerg that way.
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A bit off topic: Were Reavers in BW unable to shoot down cliffs as well? I cant remember and i cant test it because i cant get BW to run on W7.
I just noticed it in a game of starbow were i had a reaver and tried to break a tank contain from high ground and the shot got stuck on the cliff and exploded.
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On July 10 2012 02:50 seve wrote:
A bit off topic: Were Reavers in BW unable to shoot down cliffs as well? I cant remember and i cant test it because i cant get BW to run on W7.
I just noticed it in a game of starbow were i had a reaver and tried to break a tank contain from high ground and the shot got stuck on the cliff and exploded.
Yeah, you couldn't shoot down cliffs with them.
"Each scarab does 100 normal damage, upgradable to 125, plus splash damage. Scarabs will chase their target on the ground, self-destructing harmlessly after five seconds if it cannot make contact. Scarabs cannot ascend or descend from cliffs, but may use ramps. Scarabs may not be intercepted."
Source: http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Reaver_(StarCraft)
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Good to know, thanks!
Was on that site too, but i did not think of looking at the scarab description, silly me.
Concerning Lurkers: Based on a game between danko and kabel i think lurker drops are potentially devastating against protoss (FFEish). The game i saw wasnt even the fastest lurker drop possible, but followed up from a lurker containment. So when Protoss opens Stargate the obs is way to late or there arent just enough units out for protoss to defend without major casualties. Given that one game is not enough to judge balance upon, i might be totally wrong 
But maybe we should start archiving builds that seem strong, so that more of us can do them the exact same way (or a bit altered) so we can find out how to beat a build and how difficult it is to beat a build. And upon that judging if there might be a change necessary or not?
Of course everyone should experiment too, but when someone finds that a build is really strong it might be useful to investigate that further.
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On July 10 2012 02:44 MNdakota wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:09 Danko__ wrote:
Im really against reducing BT of nexus/hatch/cc. It should be risky, should require time to pay off, we should have to find why its too difficult right now. In Brood War, a two base protoss or terran was completely normal against a 4 base zerg etc. Terran would normally push out once they get their first or second science vessel. Reaver drops was pretty common against zerg. I don't think terran or protoss are having a hard time against zerg as both races usually have their siege unit out so they know it's safe. The reaver for protoss and the siege tank for terran. Lurkers can be quite the investment as about four of them cost 500 minerals which is about 20 zerglings that we are forgetting instead. I forget the gas amount but it does add up. I feel like being a bit aggressive to zerg early on is powerful. Try going a quick stargate with corsairs to snipe some overlords or go starport for cloaked wraiths. You can really throw off the zerg that way.
Uh, well, im completly aware of how it looked like in scbw. But at some point you had to expand further. Right now its much easier to starve t/p.
Dont tell me how much lurkers cost. I agree. Their cost is quite high, and they should pay for themselves. But in bw they still were weaker, more fragile, tech cost and upgrade time was much higher. Their range was shorter. Also aoe size and units clumping (even tho it was changed a bit here) makes them really powerful.
Imho tech cost and gas cost should be increased, or they should be weakened. I would take 4 lurkers instead of 20 lings any day (and from what i remember its not 500 for 4 lurkers but 800, as you should count hydras as well, but still worth it in 95% of situations).
Agression vs zerg is not that easy with that short BT of spines. On any bigger map you have enough of time to build couple. Anyway, we are nerfing zerg hard here, and i hope you gonna get these changes soon on NA. Thats terrible when we cant really discuss cause we are playing different versions.
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Well, we all should keep in mind we are still terrible in this mod and thats why balancing it will be even harder :D. Dont look at my play as P, im terrible :D. Gonna practice tomorrow some pvzs with Kabel. Right now im getting smashed 80% times in this mu.
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On July 10 2012 03:28 Danko__ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:44 MNdakota wrote:On July 10 2012 02:09 Danko__ wrote:
Im really against reducing BT of nexus/hatch/cc. It should be risky, should require time to pay off, we should have to find why its too difficult right now. In Brood War, a two base protoss or terran was completely normal against a 4 base zerg etc. Terran would normally push out once they get their first or second science vessel. Reaver drops was pretty common against zerg. I don't think terran or protoss are having a hard time against zerg as both races usually have their siege unit out so they know it's safe. The reaver for protoss and the siege tank for terran. Lurkers can be quite the investment as about four of them cost 500 minerals which is about 20 zerglings that we are forgetting instead. I forget the gas amount but it does add up. I feel like being a bit aggressive to zerg early on is powerful. Try going a quick stargate with corsairs to snipe some overlords or go starport for cloaked wraiths. You can really throw off the zerg that way. Uh, well, im completly aware of how it looked like in scbw. But at some point you had to expand further. Right now its much easier to starve t/p. Dont tell me how much lurkers cost. I agree. Their cost is quite high, and they should pay for themselves. But in bw they still were weaker, more fragile, tech cost and upgrade time was much higher. Their range was shorter. Also aoe size and units clumping (even tho it was changed a bit here) makes them really powerful. Imho tech cost and gas cost should be increased, or they should be weakened. I would take 4 lurkers instead of 20 lings any day (and from what i remember its not 500 for 4 lurkers but 800, as you should count hydras as well, but still worth it in 95% of situations). Agression vs zerg is not that easy with that short BT of spines. On any bigger map you have enough of time to build couple. Anyway, we are nerfing zerg hard here, and i hope you gonna get these changes soon on NA. Thats terrible when we cant really discuss cause we are playing different versions.
I kind of think that lurkers should go back to being 100 gas. Not sure why it was changed to being mineral heavy but they're too easy to get maybe for the price?
Please excuse my ignorance. What is being nerfed on zerg?
Also on a unrelated note, would anyone just happen to have a spare EU account so I can play with you guys? It's pretty quiet over here on NA.
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I would love to see gas heavy lurkers again. Even more then 100 gas if they are to stay in current form. Every zerg unit, beside ling should be gas heavy. Zerg is only race with potential to gain INSANE ammounts of gas.
What is being nerfed? Well, hard to tell. I dont even know what versions you are using. I have never seen upgrade for zerg regen :d. I dont know what queens you still have there (do you have breed there?). Overal, very heavy nerf to zerg econ (ammount of larvae), minor nerfs to hydras (but anyway, they still atack faster then rines!), minor buff to lings. Possibly more bigger or smaller nerfs incoming. Blords nerf, infestors nerf.
Well. I dont have account to spare. And i wouldnt be able to play anyway around this time (gmt +1 16:00-24:00). Once i get one i will tell you for sure.
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On July 10 2012 03:59 Danko__ wrote:
What is being nerfed? Well, hard to tell. I dont even know what versions you are using. I have never seen upgrade for zerg regen :d. I dont know what queens you still have there (do you have breed there?). Overal, very heavy nerf to zerg econ (ammount of larvae), minor nerfs to hydras (but anyway, they still atack faster then rines!), minor buff to lings. Possibly more bigger or smaller nerfs incoming. Blords nerf, infestors nerf..
About the queen. We currently have an upgrade on the evolution chamber that is more of a late game upgrade where it allows you to upgrade your hatcheries to have a maximum capacity of 5 larvae instead of 3 and larvae spawn time is decreased to make larvae spawn faster. I think it's better for zerg. Only until you have about 4 to 5 or more bases is when you see the upgrade take place. Zerg actually are really stable this way. They need an extra 3 or 4 macro hatchs and it feels like old school Brood War where zerg would have a bunch of hatcheries.
I haven't had problems with zerglings, hydralisks and infestors. Brood lords are more of a late game unit. You don't see them very often but they do show up sometimes.
What are the problems you guys are having with infestors? You rarely see them unless against marine heavy armies.
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You gotta be playing completly different game. We never had upgrade for more larvae from hatcheries. Also, dont know what infestors you have but ours are not good counter to marines. How fast are your tanks shooting? What stats marauders have? What stats hydras have? How much dmg is storm doing?
Watch some of our replays.
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Can we get the updated version on NA?
It's pretty clear it's pointless it discuss anything if we don't have the EU version. Do any of the EU people have NA accounts so they can play with us?
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I will send a new update to NA tomorrow. The problem is that the versions get outdated fast. But I try to send them at a higher pace to Laertes ahead
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On July 10 2012 05:57 Kabel wrote:
I will send a new update to NA tomorrow. The problem is that the versions get outdated fast. But I try to send them at a higher pace to Laertes ahead
I am curious to know what is different on the EU version compared to NA.
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EPT
