EPTAnyway, I love to come back to hatchery economy without queens. Good job.
[A] Starbow - Page 32
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haitike
Spain2722 Posts
Anyway, I love to come back to hatchery economy without queens. Good job. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
What spells shall be added to the game? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cHdZo.jpg) These are the current casters in the game. For you who don´t know, I will give a quick recap of the current spells they use in Starbow. Science vessel - Point defence drone, EMP and Irradiate. Ghost - Cloak, snipe, lockdown and Nuke Swarm Guardian - Dark swarm Infestor - Neural parasite (can also cast it while burrowed), Tremor and Plague. (Tremor spawns a nydus worm that spawns additional free units that lasts a short time. There are replays in the opening post where it is used.) Queen - Spawn creep and Transfuse. High templar - Feedback and Psi Storm Arbiter - Vortex and permanent cloaking field for ground units only. --- The big questions: --- What additional spells can be added to High templar, Swarm Guardians and Arbiters? Recall on Arbiters were a great tool in BW since it gave the slow Protoss army mobility. Now Protoss has mobility via Blink and Warp in. Laertes has suggested to add a kind of shield ability to the Arbiter that upon activation gives hardened shields to all units nearby. The Swarm Guardian is a unit that "guards the swarm". Adding some kind of Ensnare ability from BW has been suggested. High templar works fine now, but there is always room for a third spell ^^ If the Dark Archon is added to the game, what spells shall it have? If Dark Shrine remains as a tech choice in the game, getting Dark templars + Dark Archons gotta be a strong alternative to High templars + Archons. It has been suggested that Dark Archons shall have Force field + Maelstrom from BW. With the hand on your heart, is Tremor really a useful spell? How can Tremor be more useful? What spell can replace Tremor? What should the Infestor do? Infest..? Shall Defence Matrix replace Point defence drone? Or maybe even something else.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I try to categorize spells into the following sub-groups: "Snipe spells" - Spells that targets only a single unit and the goal is to nullifiy that unit in some way. Examples Snipe, Neural parasite, Feedback. Lockdown, Irradiate "Damage spells" - Spells whos purpose is to destroy the enemy, preferably as fast as possible ^^. Example: Psi storm, Hellfire Missiles on the Wraiths, Yamato cannon "Stop spells" - Spells that prevent the enemy from doing things. Example: Force field, Fungal growth, Vortex, Maelstrom and Stasis Field from BW, EMP in Starbow (right now it makes units unable to use spells or abilities for 30 seconds aside from draining all energy) Pre-combat spells - My favourite category. Spells that are not used in combat, but rather before combat to weaken the enemy. Example: Plague, Irradiate, Tremor, Nukes and maybe Stasis Field and Hellfire missiles. (One of the most intersting things in BW was the dance between Defilers and Science Vessels. Defilers wanted to sneak up and Plague/Dark swarm the enemy before attack. The Vessels had to Irradiate the Lurkers and Defilers before his army could advance. The game of spells before the big engagements...) Protective spells - Spells you cast on your armies to give them protecion or boosts. Example: Dark Swarm, Point defence Drone, Defence Matrix from BW, Transfuse, Guardian Shield Mobility spells - Spells that gives your units mobility on the map. Recall, Blink.. Area control spells - Spells that gives you control of an area. :p Dark Swarm, Force field, maybe Tremor.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I´m sure this can be theroized in many ways. I aim to add spells that are simple to understand and adds a lot of depth too the game. Players shall be able to use the spells in creative ways and do pimpest plays ^^ Feel free to discuss and suggest. | ||
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haitike
Spain2722 Posts
On July 10 2012 17:45 Danko__ wrote: Not true. Income in BW per worker was higher. Im still not sure about this. I have seen right now the OSL semifinals, and each players with 4 or 5 bases barely reach 150 supply and the game with all the bases in the map used by both players never reached 200 supply. In SC2 you reach 200 supply so easy with 3 bases in 15/20 minutes... maybe it is not the income, it is the Macro mechanics. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
 ). Not just one battle with all you have. Single units are dying all over the map all the time. Macro is harder, and units production slower (compared to sc2, due: expensive larvae, no warpgates, no reactors). Also, many units are much more suply expensive (especially for zerg).In BW you can reach limit quite fast as well, but this game is not just about maxing out. Science Vessel is fine right now. Defence matrix is superior to PDD, but even tho SV feels fine imho. Ghost is op imho. He is too good counter to everything. I belive once we get player with really good control he will rape everything with them. Snipe needs much bigger mana cost, or ghost should have lower energy regen rate. Also, lockdown should require upgrade for sure. And im still not sure about ghosts cost. We will have to test them. Unfortunetly i dont have control good enough for them. Swarm Guardian. Well... i dont like that he is flying. Imho that was much better thought in bw with slow (quite slow), ground, fragile, and expensive unit to be carrier for so powerfull skill. Imho, Dark swarm should be on ground unit. Or, you could make swarm guardian faster, cast this spell almost instant but at very close range. They will require much more careful baby sit then imho. With good speed they would be able to defend expos in time and be really "swarm guardians". Infestor: I dont like tremor. Something is wrong with it. Its easy to cast it, hard to stop it. And spawned units are hella strong. Maybe i dont understand it well enough, but right now i just dont like it. Neural parasite from burrowed unit is cool concept i think, but i think right now infestor may have bit too strong ability set. HT: i dont like feedback on him. What about giving him illusion again? Bring back Dark archons exactly from scbw :D. Arbiter: Well... vortex is alternative for statis. But what about giving opponent "time to react". Make this "black hole" start small and grow over time? Dno how would that work, but have to say, right now this tiny vortexes looks ridiculous :D. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
But I recall from my head the following numbers: A fully saturated base in SC2 gives ca 800 minerals per minute in income. (Requires 24 workers on minerals) A fully saturated base in the Starbow economy (which is a copy of the Sc2BW MOD economy) gives ca 600 minerals per minute (Requires 16 workers on minerals. Each mineral patch requires 2 workers and adding a third one does not increase the income, due to the length of the workers working time.) A fully saturated base in FRB gives 400-500 minerals per minute. (Requires 24 workers on minerals.) If anyone has time, please investigate this matter so we get the numbers straith. BW, SC2BW, FRB and SC2 economy. Measure the income rate of 1 worker at 1 mineral patch, 2 workers at the same mineral patch and shitloads of workers at a fully saturated base with 8 mineral patches. Lets see how much income per minute they gather. And perhaps gas.. So we see the ratio. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
And its quite big difference, about 20% more out of one gas in BW. But... well... i started getting used to and had hope we will forget about that topic. | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On July 10 2012 22:06 Kabel wrote: Discussion of the day: What spells shall be added to the game? These are the current casters in the game. For you who don´t know, I will give a quick recap of the current spells they use in Starbow. Science vessel - Point defence drone, EMP and Irradiate. Ghost - Cloak, snipe, lockdown and Nuke Swarm Guardian - Dark swarm Infestor - Neural parasite (can also cast it while burrowed), Tremor and Plague. (Tremor spawns a nydus worm that spawns additional free units that lasts a short time. There are replays in the opening post where it is used.) Queen - Spawn creep and Transfuse. High templar - Feedback and Psi Storm Arbiter - Vortex and permanent cloaking field for ground units only. --- The big questions: --- What additional spells can be added to High templar, Swarm Guardians and Arbiters? Recall on Arbiters were a great tool in BW since it gave the slow Protoss army mobility. Now Protoss has mobility via Blink and Warp in. Laertes has suggested to add a kind of shield ability to the Arbiter that upon activation gives hardened shields to all units nearby. The Swarm Guardian is a unit that "guards the swarm". Adding some kind of Ensnare ability from BW has been suggested. High templar works fine now, but there is always room for a third spell ^^ If the Dark Archon is added to the game, what spells shall it have? If Dark Shrine remains as a tech choice in the game, getting Dark templars + Dark Archons gotta be a strong alternative to High templars + Archons. It has been suggested that Dark Archons shall have Force field + Maelstrom from BW. With the hand on your heart, is Tremor really a useful spell? How can Tremor be more useful? What spell can replace Tremor? What should the Infestor do? Infest..? Shall Defence Matrix replace Point defence drone? Or maybe even something else.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I try to categorize spells into the following sub-groups: "Snipe spells" - Spells that targets only a single unit and the goal is to nullifiy that unit in some way. Examples Snipe, Neural parasite, Feedback. Lockdown, Irradiate "Damage spells" - Spells whos purpose is to destroy the enemy, preferably as fast as possible ^^. Example: Psi storm, Hellfire Missiles on the Wraiths, Yamato cannon "Stop spells" - Spells that prevent the enemy from doing things. Example: Force field, Fungal growth, Vortex, Maelstrom and Stasis Field from BW, EMP in Starbow (right now it makes units unable to use spells or abilities for 30 seconds aside from draining all energy) Pre-combat spells - My favourite category. Spells that are not used in combat, but rather before combat to weaken the enemy. Example: Plague, Irradiate, Tremor, Nukes and maybe Stasis Field and Hellfire missiles. (One of the most intersting things in BW was the dance between Defilers and Science Vessels. Defilers wanted to sneak up and Plague/Dark swarm the enemy before attack. The Vessels had to Irradiate the Lurkers and Defilers before his army could advance. The game of spells before the big engagements...) Protective spells - Spells you cast on your armies to give them protecion or boosts. Example: Dark Swarm, Point defence Drone, Defence Matrix from BW, Transfuse, Guardian Shield Mobility spells - Spells that gives your units mobility on the map. Recall, Blink.. Area control spells - Spells that gives you control of an area. :p Dark Swarm, Force field, maybe Tremor.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I´m sure this can be theroized in many ways. I aim to add spells that are simple to understand and adds a lot of depth too the game. Players shall be able to use the spells in creative ways and do pimpest plays ^^ Feel free to discuss and suggest. I want to add 2 more cathegories, supportive/defensive spells and Informational spells all of the below exclude passive abilities such as devourers slow-on-hit, marauders concussive shell, banelings explode upon attack and several units detection. it includes auto-cast abilities such as medics heal and the zealot charge though. if it has a cooldown or costs energy or requires the player to do an activation or any combination of those, its here. (interestingly cloaking field does not fulfill any of those conditions, so that is a special case) (similarly, sensor tower does not fulfill any of the conditions, but thats not really a spell so thats left out) (and siege tank siege mode is its own unit, not a spell in my opinion.) (and command center/planetary fortress loading/unloading is not mentioned because they have no significant impact of the game) lets list the BW spells + Show Spoiler + by cathegory: + Show Spoiler + Snipe spells + Show Spoiler + Feedback Mind Control Yamato Gun Lockdown Irradiate Spawn Broodling damage spells + Show Spoiler + Psionic Storm Yamato Gun Stim Pack Nuclear Strike Plague Spawn Broodling stop spells + Show Spoiler + Stasis Field Maelstrom Lockdown EMP Shockwave Ensnare pre-combat spells + Show Spoiler + Mind Control Hallucination Nuclear Strike EMP Shockwave Irradiate plague Infest Command Center Parasite mobility spells + Show Spoiler + Recall loading/unloading instant travel area control spells + Show Spoiler + Cloaking Field Disruption Web Nuclear Strike burrow/unburrow Dark Swarm supportive/defensive spells + Show Spoiler + Cloaking Field Hallucination Recharge Shields Personal Cloaking Defense Matrix informational spells + Show Spoiler + Scanner Sweep burrow/unburrow Parasite by caster + Show Spoiler + Protoss + Show Spoiler + Arbiter + Show Spoiler + Cloaking Field Recall Stasis Field Corsair + Show Spoiler + Disruption Web Dark Archon + Show Spoiler + Feedback Maelstrom Mind Control High Templar + Show Spoiler + Hallucination Psionic Storm Shuttle + Show Spoiler + loading/unloading Shield battery + Show Spoiler + Recharge Shields Terran + Show Spoiler + Battlecruiser + Show Spoiler + Yamato Gun Dropship + Show Spoiler + loading/unloading Firebat/Marine + Show Spoiler + Stim Pack Ghost + Show Spoiler + Personal Cloaking Lockdown Nuclear Strike Medic + Show Spoiler + Heal Science Vessel + Show Spoiler + Defense Matrix EMP Shockwave Irradiate Vulture + Show Spoiler + Spider Mine Wraith + Show Spoiler + Cloaking Field ComSat Station (yes, it's a capital S in ComSat) + Show Spoiler + Scanner Sweep Zerg + Show Spoiler + All Ground Units (except for Ultralisk) + Show Spoiler + burrow/unburrow Defiler + Show Spoiler + Dark Swarm Plague Consume Overlord + Show Spoiler + loading/unloading Queen + Show Spoiler + Infest Command Center Parasite Ensnare Spawn Broodling Nydus Canal + Show Spoiler + instant travel total spells: 31 (not counting multiples for duplicates such as burrow and loading/unloading) now lets list the SC2 spells + Show Spoiler + by cathegory + Show Spoiler + Snipe spells + Show Spoiler + Feedback Yamato Gun Sniper Round 255mm Strike Cannon Corruption Neural Parasite damage spells + Show Spoiler + Psionic Storm Yamato Gun Sniper Round Tac Nuke Strike Stim Pack Seeker Missile 255mm Strike Cannon Corruption Infested Terran stop spells + Show Spoiler + Vortex Graviton Beam Forcefield EMP Round Neural Parasite Fungal Growth Contaminate pre-combat spells + Show Spoiler + Hallucination Cloak Tac Nuke Strike EMP Round mobility spells + Show Spoiler + Mass Recall Blink loading/unloading Charge Generate Creep Spawn Creep Tumor Build Nydus Worm area control spells + Show Spoiler + Vortex Claoking Field Guardian Shield Build Auto Turret Build Point Defense Drone burrow/unburrow Fungal Growth Generate Creep Spawn Creep Tumor supportive/defensive spells + Show Spoiler + Cloaking Field Guardian Shield Phasing Mode chrono Boost Cloak Heal Build Point Defense Drone Calldown: Mule Calldown: Supply Generate Creep Inject Larvae Transfuse Spawn Creep Tumor informational spells + Show Spoiler + Hallucination Scanning Sweep Spawn Changeling by caster + Show Spoiler + Protoss + Show Spoiler + High Templar + Show Spoiler + Feedback Psionic Storm Mothership + Show Spoiler + Vortex Cloaking Field Mass Recall Phoenix + Show Spoiler + Graviton Beam Sentry + Show Spoiler + Forcefield Guardian Shield Hallucination Stalker + Show Spoiler + Blink Warp prism + Show Spoiler + Phasing Mode loading/unloading Zealot + Show Spoiler + Charge Nexus + Show Spoiler + Chrono Boost Terran + Show Spoiler + Banshee + Show Spoiler + Cloak Battlecruiser + Show Spoiler + Yamato Gun Ghost + Show Spoiler + Sniper Round Cloak Tac Nuke Strike EMP Round Marauder/Marine + Show Spoiler + Stim Pack Medivac + Show Spoiler + Heal loading/unloading Raven + Show Spoiler + Build Auto Turret Seeker Missile Build Point Defense Drone Thor + Show Spoiler + 255mm Strike Cannon Orbital Command + Show Spoiler + Scanning Sweep Calldown: Mule Calldown: Supply Zerg + Show Spoiler + All Ground Units + Show Spoiler + burrow/unburrow Corruptor + Show Spoiler + Corruption Infestor + Show Spoiler + Neural Parasite Fungal Growth Infested Terran Overlord + Show Spoiler + Generate Creep loading/unloading Overseer + Show Spoiler + Spawn Changeling Contaminate Queen + Show Spoiler + Inject Larvae Transfuse Spawn Creep Tumor Creep Tumor + Show Spoiler + Spawn Creep Tumor Nydus Network + Show Spoiler + Build Nydus Worm total spells: 40 (not counting multiples for duplicates such as burrow and loading/unloading) and finally the starbow spells (I might miss a few since there is no wiki where I can look up an actual list and if I do miss some, who would blame me?) + Show Spoiler + by cathegory + Show Spoiler + Snipe spells + Show Spoiler + Graviton Beam Feedback Yamato Gun Sniper Round Lockdown Irradiate Hellfire Missile Neural Parasite damage spells + Show Spoiler + Psionic Storm Yamato Gun Stim Pack Sniper Round Nuclear Strike Irradiate Hellfire Missile Tremor Plague stop spells + Show Spoiler + Cloaking Field Graviton Beam Lockdown pre-combat spells + Show Spoiler + Phasing Mode Nuclear Strike Point Defence Drone EMP Irradiate Tremor Plague Spawn Changeling mobility spells + Show Spoiler + Blink loading/unloading charge Generate Creep Spawn Creep Tumor area control spells + Show Spoiler + Vortex Cloaking Field Point Defence Drone Spider mine burrow/unburrow Tremor Generate Creep Dark Swarm Spawn Creep Tumor supportive/defensive spells + Show Spoiler + Cloaking Field Phasing Mode Cloak Heal point Defense Drone Calldown: SCV Generate Creep Dark Swarm Contaminate (?) Spawn Creep Tumor Transfuse informational spells + Show Spoiler + Scanning Sweep burrow/unburrow Spawn Changeling (?) Spawn Creep Tumor by caster + Show Spoiler + Protoss + Show Spoiler + Arbiter + Show Spoiler + Vortex Cloaking Field Corsair + Show Spoiler + Graviton Beam Stalker + Show Spoiler + Blink High Templar + Show Spoiler + Feedback Psionic Storm Warp Prism + Show Spoiler + Phasing Mode loading/unloading Zealot + Show Spoiler + Charge Terran + Show Spoiler + Battlecruiser + Show Spoiler + Yamato Gun Firebat/Marine/Marauder + Show Spoiler + Stim Pack Ghost + Show Spoiler + Cloak Sniper Round Lockdown Nuclear Strike Medivac + Show Spoiler + heal loading/unloading Science Vessel + Show Spoiler + Point Defence Drone EMP Irradiate Vulture + Show Spoiler + Spider Mine Wraith + Show Spoiler + Cloak Hellfire Missile Orbital Command + Show Spoiler + Calldown: SCV Scanning Sweep Zerg + Show Spoiler + All ground Units + Show Spoiler + burrow/unburrow Infestor + Show Spoiler + Neural Parasite Tremor Plague Overlord + Show Spoiler + Generate Creep loading/unloading Overseer + Show Spoiler + Spawn Changeling (?) Contaminate (?) Swarm Guardian + Show Spoiler + Dark Swarm Queen + Show Spoiler + Spawn Creep Tumor Transfuse Creep Tumor + Show Spoiler + Spawn Creep Tumor total spells: 32 (not counting multiples for duplicates such as burrow and loading/unloading) Conclusions: + Show Spoiler + - Z has very few snipe spells, but snipe spells is in my opinion not a focus of the game, so this is fine IMO - in comparison to T, Z and P have very few damage spells, though P do have the strongest damage spell in the game - there are very few stop spells (note that BW had plenty of powerful stop spells, even though people like to claim otherwise) and there are not a single one for zerg. - P have 1 pre-combat spell (Phasing Mode for warp prism, which just barely counts). this doesn't seem right. compare to Z (3) and T (4). - T have no mobility spells other than dropping (and stim, but stim costs health). - P have very little and weak area control spells. (Vortex and Cloaking Field). compare to Z and T which have plenty of powerful ones. - P have very few and weak supportive/defensive spells - T have 1 informational spell, Z have 3, P have none. P is lacking in many areas, I would say focus on giving P some <3, especially supportive/defensive spells, area control spells and pre-combat spells. you know, kabel, your favourite cathegories. T have a little bit low mobility theoretically, but since medivacs are amazing that shouldn't be too much of a problem in practice. however, T seems to have a ton of straight up damage spells, perhaps switch some out for variety? other than that T seems well-rounded in most areas. Z have no stop spells. at all. it is true that too many stop spells can very well ruin the game, but some stop spells are better than no stop spells. its a matter of moderation. I suggest ensnare or similar, I am personally against having an area where enemies are slowed by the way, i would prefer the original ensnare, enemies that are hit gets a debuff which makes them move and attack slower, and the effect stays for a duration, not just until they move away. also, to make queens more valuable (and thus more widely used) I would remove the initial creep tumor from the game, increase the creep radius generated by creep tumors and make creep tumors not able to spread by themselves. that way it is easier to spread more creep, but it is a slower process (because using the queens energy once = 1 creep tumor, not infinity creep tumors) and requires the queen to be at the edge of the creep. the creep tumor cost may need changing. (I think I suggested making creep tumors not spread infinitely some 4 months back, just bringing it back up for discussion) also, someone suggested having creep tumors be upgradeable to spine/sporecrawlers. I am against this, as that would force spinecrawlers to be static (else they would be able to generate creep, move, generate more creep... it wouldnt make sense to have a building which can move, requires creep to burrow, but generates its own creep) and I like my moving spines. also then you would need a queen before making any spines, and even then there would be a strict limit to how fast you can build defenses. all races should be able to go "OH SHIT I NEED CANNONS/BUNKERS/SPINES/MISSILE TURRETS/SPORES!!!!" and build 10 of them at the same time if they feel like it. whether or not it was the correct decision is a different case entirely. also I would say Hallucination as informational P spell, it does the job and have a few other uses. or P might not need informational spells if we assume observers does the job instead. now, have a nice day. I have a day9 funday monday to watch (and its my race on topic, woohoo! (but its such a difficult topic, the games will probably suck (but hopefully it will be awesomeness!))) // Roblin | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Science Vessel is fine right now. Defence matrix is superior to PDD, but even tho SV feels fine imho. Ghost is op imho. He is too good counter to everything. I belive once we get player with really good control he will rape everything with them. Snipe needs much bigger mana cost, or ghost should have lower energy regen rate. Also, lockdown should require upgrade for sure. And im still not sure about ghosts cost. We will have to test them. Unfortunetly i dont have control good enough for them. Swarm Guardian. Well... i dont like that he is flying. Imho that was much better thought in bw with slow (quite slow), ground, fragile, and expensive unit to be carrier for so powerfull skill. Imho, Dark swarm should be on ground unit. Or, you could make swarm guardian faster, cast this spell almost instant but at very close range. They will require much more careful baby sit then imho. With good speed they would be able to defend expos in time and be really "swarm guardians". Infestor: I dont like tremor. Something is wrong with it. Its easy to cast it, hard to stop it. And spawned units are hella strong. Maybe i dont understand it well enough, but right now i just dont like it. Neural parasite from burrowed unit is cool concept i think, but i think right now infestor may have bit too strong ability set. HT: i dont like feedback on him. What about giving him illusion again? Bring back Dark archons exactly from scbw :D. Arbiter: Well... vortex is alternative for statis. But what about giving opponent "time to react". Make this "black hole" start small and grow over time? Dno how would that work, but have to say, right now this tiny vortexes looks ridiculous :D. Overall, I am a sucker for spells that takes position. Like dark swarm or PDD. The spells themselves does not kill anything, but they make an area a dangerous field. I think that often leads to interesting scenarios. The problem with it is that it can win the game, since many of them can be casted at the same area, on top of each other. A Terran push with a couple of PDD, spider mines, siege tanks is very hard to stop. (That has only happened in a few games) The problem is that it has no weakness. You must have ranged units to kill the PDD, but the PDD stops ranged attacks. If it was a way to shut it down, or if it worked in an other way, that would be great. Suggestions anyone? (I know that the Dark Swarm is an even stronger spell, that can win the game. But atleast the enemy can stand in the Dark swarm themselves to take benefit from it.) The point of Tremor was too make it an area control spell. There is no reason to cast it directly at the enemy army, since it takes some seconds before units spawn, and the Nydus worm will just be killed. Instead you want to cast it a bit away from the enemy, but not too far away, since the units who are spawned need to reach the enemy. (They only last ca 15 seconds) The nydus spawns units that are slow and strong. They make the area around the Nydus dangerous. Also, the spell could also be used as a "siege weapon". If you attack the enemy base, summon a couple of Nyduses to get additional units that takes damage from tanks/cannons etc. The spell can also be used for harassment. Summon a couple of them in the enemy base and they are in trouble. Since the cooldown is ca 100 seconds, the Zerg player has to use it wisely. But the problem with it, as you say, is that it is really easy to cast it. And really hard to stop it. 4-5 infestors who casts this at the same time can destroy a base. And if a player gets 10+ infestors (has only happened rarely), 10 tremors can themselves defeat the enemy army, if he is forced to engage. Personally I like the concept of it, but it needs to be tweaked in some way. If I can´t find a good balance in it, then I will scrap it. Suggestions anyone? Ghosts seems really strong yes. Gonna see how it works when we play more with them. A faster Swarm Guardian with shorter cast range on Dark swarm sounds like a nice idea. Right now the Swarm Guardians takes no risk when it moves to the front, casts Dark swarm and retreats. They are so fast that the enemy can´t catch them. Vortex idea sounds cool, but its too hard for me to make. T_T | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
Zerg Infestor: It's good where it is. Swarm Guardian: Dark Swarm, Consume, Ensnare(?). Queen: You could completely ditch the idea all together and have Creep Tumors back onto defensive structures like the Creep Colonies, which I think that's what they were called. Then you could put Transfuse onto the Swarm Guardian or something else. Or just not have it altogether. Two spell casters for Terran and Zerg but Protoss get three because of Dark Archon. Which is a racial difference which is okay! Protoss High Templar: Good where it is. Remember that the Templars can go into Archon state so it's basically a whole 'nother unit. Arbiter: Good where it is. Dark Archon: Forcefield, Maelstrom. Terran Ghost: Good where it is. Science Vessel: Point Defense Drone is a spell that it too strong against Hydralisks. I suggest it has Defensive Matrix, EMP and Irradiate. So pretty much the Brood War Science Vessel. | ||
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
On July 10 2012 15:32 0neder wrote: Wait, they already tried blink on DTs? I definitely think that should move to the DT if it stays in, it makes so much sense. Yeah in the SC2 campaign, when you play as Zeratul, you can use blink and it has a really cool dark smoke animation. It would make a ton of sense to have blink be an upgrade on the Dark Shrine for DT's. Because they don't have too much use after the initial DT surprise. Even in BW they usually didn't play that big of a role after their timing, unless the enemy was too spread out. Blink is an awesome ability, but it loses it's special feeling when the bulk of the protoss army can do it. This is an extreme example, but it's as if Zealots could storm, in that storms are fun to watch, but if you see them too much then they're not exciting anymore. I'd rather see DT blink micro, even if it happens a lot less often. Keep the dragoon  I hate stalkers. | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On July 11 2012 03:20 pzea469 wrote: Blink is an awesome ability, but it loses it's special feeling when the bulk of the protoss army can do it. This is an extreme example, but it's as if Zealots could storm, in that storms are fun to watch, but if you see them too much then they're not exciting anymore. I'd rather see DT blink micro, even if it happens a lot less often. Keep the dragoon I hate stalkers.The golden Stalker looks absolutely sick! You'll love it, trust me.  Personally, unless the Stalker loses the Blink ability. Sure! But otherwise, no. They would just overlap. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
My ideas: Zerg: Infestor:. Something fitting name would be nice. Plague is kinda in theme. What about making him purely offensive spellcaster, specialized in weakening opponent more or less directly? Also, what about melee range consume able to target not only own units (just non massive bio units)? Maybe some kind of ensare/spawn broodling mix. Units affected are slowed for few seconds, and if killed during that time will spawn broodlings? Swarm Guardian: Protector, support, defender. Prevents his units from dying. Maybe makes them stronger, heals them? I have idea for his skill. Creates temporary (or permament, dno) HUGE ASS creep tumor. Mix between forcefield/creep tumor. Destructible, with decent hps, good regen, pushes units out of place like forcefields. Maybe granting some regen. Looks like spawning pool during mophing, with about sime size. 3rd skill, transfuse? Stronger, with bonus heal vs structures? Queen: Spawn Creep tumor. Release locust: Spawns small swarm of tiny (really tiny), melee units (1dmg, non reduced by armor, 0,6cd) with very low hps (like 5 or so) and great speed on creep. Mark territory: Units on selected area gets 1 more dmg from each atack. Overlords: Remove morph to overseer, remove generate creep, give detection :D Toss: HT: Storm, Illusion. Arbiter: Let cloaking field cloak air, cause why not? Make vortex growing (i know i said that already :D). Give him pylon power field beneath. Warp prism: Remove power field. Add Reversed Polarity: Disables all mechanical units and structures in area around it (activates like warp prism activates right now). Requires upgrade. Dark archon: Feedback,Maelstorm, mind control. Terran: Ghost: Nerf snipe, tweak lockdown (require upgrade). SV: Defence matrix/EMP/Irradiate. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
On July 11 2012 02:37 MNdakota wrote: My thoughts! Zerg Infestor: It's good where it is. Swarm Guardian: Dark Swarm, Consume, Ensnare(?). Queen: You could completely ditch the idea all together and have Creep Tumors back onto defensive structures like the Creep Colonies, which I think that's what they were called. Then you could put Transfuse onto the Swarm Guardian or something else. Or just not have it altogether. Two spell casters for Terran and Zerg but Protoss get three because of Dark Archon. Which is a racial difference which is okay! Protoss High Templar: Good where it is. Remember that the Templars can go into Archon state so it's basically a whole 'nother unit. Arbiter: Good where it is. Dark Archon: Forcefield, Maelstrom. Terran Ghost: Good where it is. Science Vessel: Point Defense Drone is a spell that it too strong against Hydralisks. I suggest it has Defensive Matrix, EMP and Irradiate. So pretty much the Brood War Science Vessel. Ensnare sounds like a likely addition to the Swarm Guardian. How shall the spell work? Slow, freeze, stops attack or just like BW ensnare? Maelstrom and Force fields are two likely spells for Dark Archon. Personally I like Force Field, I just don´t like that the Protoss arsenal in SC2 consists of spamming that spell with early spell casters, otherwise your mighty Protoss army dies vs humans with machine guns.^^ I think Force Field shall be something more "rare", thus it can fit with the Dark Archon.. But this is the D.A.R.K A.R.C.H.O.N! A dangerous late game fucker. An angry evil red Archon. It should have something really powerful, like: Mass Mind Control: - All units in a small area are converted into neutral units for 30 seconds. They attack ALL nearby units, but not each other. When the effect ends, they fall back to the original player.. Something useful, something strong and something evil.. ^^ I found the spell below in the editor. I had already made it some months ago. It was called Divine Intervention (???) and made all units inside it invulnerable for 20 seconds. (Even the enemy) I scrapped it thought. But its still there. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/U70wt.jpg) Perhaps something can be changed about it? If it is given to the Arbiter, the Arbiter becomes a really sneaky unit. It can "cut" away parts of the enemy army with Vortex, or it can strengthen parts of your army with the shield. As I said earlier, I really like spells that does something with an area. ^^ While writing this, I thought of another idea for the Arbiter. If the hardened shield is vetoed, give the Arbiter an ability called Chrono Disrupter, another instant cast ability which makes the time scale of all units that are NOT the Arbiter that are within the bubble 1/2 or 3/4 of what it normally is, this is another interesting idea to go beside the Hardened Shield ability This is a cool idea thought But I think its too hard for me to make. Besides, a spell that makes a unit give an effect to a large radius of units around it further strengthen deathballs. Clump up your units, release the powerful spell above them. I prefer spells that adds powerful things to a small area, since it makes you wanna position some of your units there. I think that Queen should have her creep tumor ability changed to creep colony, meaning that workers don't build spines, the queen's creep colonies do. And finally, zerg don't have enough big units for transfuse to be useful, Hm, making Queens be the unit "building" the defencive structures sounds interesting. But I feel it will be hard finding models and animations for this. But I do agree with the Transfuse thing. There are few units that can benefit from a full transfuse (150HP); the Queen itself, spine crawlers, ultralisks, brood lords.. Maybe turn Transfuse into a small area of effect, which heals many units a bit. 50 Hp. Or 50% of HP.. O_o I don´t mind D-matrix. Its a nice spell. But I kinda like PDD too If the Medic is brought back into the game, something like D-matrix can be added to it. The medic can heal and cast some kind of protective shield on any friendly unit: marines, dropships, siege tanks, etc.. It would give an extra dimension to the unit, since it was very limitied in its role in BW. Its other abilities sucked giraffe pussy. You only had it to heal marines. If it is able to shield other units as well, something more comes out of it.. plus that the game needs more women I had a shield spell for Protoss earlier in the mod. It gave one unit the "benign" - flag, which means that the enemy would not auto attack it. Just like changelings. So if you casted the shield on 3 zealots, run into the enemy base, you could attack his spine crawlers until he noticed it and focus fired your units. On July 11 2012 03:20 pzea469 wrote: Yeah in the SC2 campaign, when you play as Zeratul, you can use blink and it has a really cool dark smoke animation. It would make a ton of sense to have blink be an upgrade on the Dark Shrine for DT's. Because they don't have too much use after the initial DT surprise. Even in BW they usually didn't play that big of a role after their timing, unless the enemy was too spread out. Blink is an awesome ability, but it loses it's special feeling when the bulk of the protoss army can do it. This is an extreme example, but it's as if Zealots could storm, in that storms are fun to watch, but if you see them too much then they're not exciting anymore. I'd rather see DT blink micro, even if it happens a lot less often. Keep the dragoon I hate stalkers.Several months ago, I experimented with blink on Dark Templars. Its a nice ability animation. But it was sooo good. You can warp in them + blink into the enemy base. I agree that Dark Templars have little use after the initial suprise. I gave them Feedback a long time ago. That was also very very good. Sneak up to the enemy, assasinate their casters from a distance. I think making them able to be warped into Dark Archon will make players still get them. I suppose. Warp prism: Remove power field. Add Reversed Polarity: Disables all mechanical units and structures in area around it (activates like warp prism activates right now). Requires upgrade. Generally I try to avoid to change familiar units too much. All who plays Starcraft 2 has an idea what every unit is supposed too do. When the unit in the mod does something completely different, compared to the original game, things get confusing. Even though the ability sounds cool. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
On July 11 2012 04:31 Laertes wrote: Kabel, take PDD out and shelve it for now, I would REALLY like to try Defensive Matrix in game, also, the time scale thing is not hard, and I can make it for you if you want. The key is ONE field in a behavior called Time Scale, it slows everything about the unit down, and is relatively simple to change, granted you know your way around the editor. Do not turn down ideas because they are beyond your ability to make, because I am a pro map editor, and can help you with anything you need. UPGRADES for collosi and dragoon are still in the game, take them out. Gossen get a build together with all the new caster abilities in that I created, fix up tooltips and stuff as well. I am playing a game with dakota, after I am done, I will wait on EU for you after you reply, kapice? Sure we can play on EU. But I get so many ideas from people that it would be really time consuming adding everything to the game. Generally I try the abilities that I feel has the most potential. Yes, I know thats theorycrafting and it is not as good as actually trying the abilities, but I have to put a filter somewhere. (Sometimes my filter filters away ideas that are actually good.) Adding all of your ideas to the game will take time. My days only have 24 hours and I need to live and work too : / Cause it saves me a lot of time, if people who has good ideas for abilities, spells or mechanics, makes an alternative map and shows the stuff too me. Everyone has access to Starbow. It can be opened and edited in the editor and saved with an alternative name. If the stuff is good and has potential, I add it to the game. I tried your map last week and you have convinced me about the Dark Archon. I think it will fit in the game. Probably D-matrix too. But are there any new stuff you want to show me? Will the time scale ability add something great to the game? Sure, it sounds interesting, but how can it be used and what purpose does it serve? (The upgrade for Dragoon range actually works for Stalkers. I just forgot to change the button text. The colossus upgrade I forgot to remove ) Ps. I am online now on EU | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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