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[A] Starbow - Page 249

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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JohnnyZerg
Profile Joined July 2012
Italy378 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-16 21:48:43
April 16 2013 20:26 GMT
#4961
Someone plays?
Danko__
Profile Joined January 2012
Poland429 Posts
April 16 2013 20:30 GMT
#4962
Same as one presented with helions in that video. Just use vultures model instead.
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
April 16 2013 20:32 GMT
#4963
On April 17 2013 05:30 Danko__ wrote:
Same as one presented with helions in that video. Just use vultures model instead.

Very easy to do.

There was also Pura's idea to use this sort of micro, but have it so that hellions attack will splash the longer you are moving and aimed towards a target which could be neat. Adds even more risk/reward.
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
April 16 2013 20:51 GMT
#4964
Why give Vulture the Hellion attack in the video?
Creator of Starbow
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
April 16 2013 20:57 GMT
#4965
Because it feel more like the vulture attack.
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
makmeatt
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
2024 Posts
April 16 2013 21:38 GMT
#4966
On April 17 2013 05:57 Xiphias wrote:
Because it feel more like the vulture attack.

*cough*
Nothing can feel like the vulture attack more than the vulture attack itself.
"Silver Edge can't break my hope" - Kryptt 2016 || "Chrono is not a debuff, you just get rekt" - Guru 2016
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
April 17 2013 01:14 GMT
#4967
WHOA. HI MAKMEATT
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
April 17 2013 04:23 GMT
#4968

Thumbs up or down?
Cons: Some people will mistakenly think it means they can move and shoot at the same time.
Pros: People will think they can move and shoot at the same time with hilarious results.
Looks much nicer.
Danko__
Profile Joined January 2012
Poland429 Posts
April 17 2013 04:54 GMT
#4969
On April 17 2013 06:38 makmeatt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 17 2013 05:57 Xiphias wrote:
Because it feel more like the vulture attack.

*cough*
Nothing can feel like the vulture attack more than the vulture attack itself.


Because it feels more like the vulture attack than helion attack.
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
April 17 2013 05:58 GMT
#4970
Let me actially go back on what I said (what??)

The one big difference of having heelions with "vulture shot" (it's alsmot the same) from the vulture itself is ofc the hellbat transformation. This makes more sense if the Hellions gets the attack showcased by dec since the two attacks now will be very different. The hellion's attack was too similar to the hellbat in the first place anyways.

But... if we add this new attack to the hellions then mass lings will be a pain for terran in early-game as the old hellion attack deals much better with large numbers of zerglings, so I suggest we bring back the firebat as well. My (adjusted) suggesiton for terran line-up

- Marines
- Medics
- Reapers (with cliff-jump cooldown, no upgrade reqiuered for cliff-jumping, with stim when upgarded and with the mine things when upgraded. I would like the mine-thing upgrade to be on the tecjh lab, but requer factory for upgrade).
- Firebat
- Ghost

- Hellion (with new attack, and upgrades for both spider mines and hellbat transformation)
- Tanks
- Goliaths.

The rest as it is.

Maybe we should keep the immortal (the new one) if we have hellbats..... Might be hard to balance ....
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-17 07:21:16
April 17 2013 07:16 GMT
#4971
I do not think that both Firebat and Hellbat is necessary. IF the Hellion attack is reworked so it is more like a Vulture attack, the Hellion will still be able to handle mass Zerglings with Spider mines! Just as Vultures did.

Maybe this:

Marine
Medic
Reaper (Maybe the mine attack ability)
Ghost

Hellion with reworked attack + Spider mines + Hellbat
Tank
Goliath

The rest as it is.



As you say Xiphias, the attacks for Hellion and Hellbat would become more different compared to each other.

The main problem I see is that it will scare away even more players. Newcomers build the Hellions, drive into the enemy mineral line, attacks the Drones and a tiny little flame shot appears... No roasting!!! Wtf lol zoomg rage quit1!!!1!!11

After all, we take a familiar unit from SC2 and just make it even worse.



Otherwise I will just go for what works:

Marine
Medic
Reaper (Mine attack ability?)
Firebat
Ghost

Vulture + Spider mines
Tank
Goliath

Air units as it is.



What I do like with the Hellion/Hellbat is the connection between Bio + Mech it provides. (Medics + Hellbat, Marines + Hellbats etc)

If I go back to basics, the same scenario will probably still occur for Terran: Only mech vs P and T in game after game.

Maybe new Reapers can change that. Or if Ghosts or Medics become even more useful in combination with other units. (For example is Matrix quite good with mech etc) Then maybe will bio units, to some degree atleast, become more useful in more match-ups.

Creator of Starbow
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-17 08:41:39
April 17 2013 08:09 GMT
#4972
The vulture attack was so much better than the hellion attack than changing the attack will bring more to the game then the people raging because the hellion attack is different.

We could make the vulture transform? Since the new hellion attack is so similar to the vulture attack.

Point is: Please find a way to remove the flame-attack of the hellions while keeping the hellbat transform. I don't see why we don't want firebat. We had it with vultures, even if vultures held off lings.

TvZ should be able to stay on bio tech vs many lings, and that is hard atm. Me and johnnyZerg tested new bio (marines, medics and reapers with mines) vs mass lings, and they were slaughtered without the firebat.

On the other hand, terran will not stay on pure bio, since tanks are so strong and spells like fungal and plauge and lurkers destroys bio, so I feel the firebat is neccecary, and can even provide some fun.

On April 17 2013 16:16 Kabel wrote:

Maybe new Reapers can change that. Or if Ghosts or Medics become even more useful in combination with other units. (For example is Matrix quite good with mech etc) Then maybe will bio units, to some degree atleast, become more useful in more match-ups.



It can! Me and JohnnyZerg did some testing and a bio terran can destroy a siged position with the new mines if you give them matrix from medics, but it is difficult to execute. It was sooo much more fun and much more difficult than using mauraders

Also: ADD ALL THE DECEMBERCALM STUFF!!!
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
April 17 2013 08:53 GMT
#4973
I just mean that Hellbat + Firebat are essentially the same units. They are so similar in what they do. I think it would be strange to have both of them in the game.
Creator of Starbow
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-17 09:17:31
April 17 2013 09:01 GMT
#4974
They look / feel similar but they play very different roles.

Firebats makes an early marine/medic push viable vs a greedy zerg who tries to defend by just using lings (reapers wont help much here), and hellbats tank for siegetanks when terrans go for mech.

I would like to keep both and I don't think it hurts, but if you want firebat gone I won't whine about it (not like the carrier )
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Danko__
Profile Joined January 2012
Poland429 Posts
April 17 2013 14:18 GMT
#4975
I haven't been playing for a while but, unless something was rebalanced, I find it hard to belive that Marine/medic gets saughtered by mass ling. Pathing patch was quite big nerf to lings.

In terran lineup I would like to see vult + tweaked firebat + reapers with snapshot mines.
JohnnyZerg
Profile Joined July 2012
Italy378 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-17 14:35:01
April 17 2013 14:34 GMT
#4976
I understand that the main problem of the hellion, is his attack (splash damage), which together with the mine, it's damn strong (although I have not had the chance to try it in game). Solution? Return of the vulture.
And hellbat? Revome it. But keep the Firebat? No!
How do you kill a mass lings? without spider mines, the reaper has something to do? Yes, but snapshots mines do not work on Zerglings.

I tried adding a small splash damage at reaper normal attack (fragmentation projectiles).This splash damage work on light units, excluding harvesters. This splash damage, not require an upgrade but jetpack ability (with cooldown 20 sec), has needs an upgrade. This reaper maintains snapshot mines (require tech lab withoud factory), that unlike what it may seem, is strong on ranged units. This reaper is a support unit, in large numbers is difficult to manage. Trying is believing.
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-17 15:12:04
April 17 2013 15:01 GMT
#4977
I don't mind a vulture return that much, but I do mind reapers countering lings. With mines reapers already work good vs lurkers, tanks and other large targets as well as canons and do great against workers. If they get spalsh vs light they also kill lings and marines and zealots.

We need something to counter reapers, it can't be "all about the reapers", so I suggest we do bring the firebat back, especially if we bring back the vulture, and do not give reaper splash vs light!

On April 17 2013 23:18 Danko__ wrote:
I haven't been playing for a while but, unless something was rebalanced, I find it hard to belive that Marine/medic gets saughtered by mass ling. Pathing patch was quite big nerf to lings.

In terran lineup I would like to see vult + tweaked firebat + reapers with snapshot mines.


This is actually my style. Play greedy opening with mass ling to defend which is very hard to punish without firebats if you go for bio play.

Might be hard for the editor, but is it possible to add the hellbat transformation to the vulture?
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
April 17 2013 16:10 GMT
#4978
I think that as long as bio and mech are kept seperate like in BW there is room for both the firebat and hellbat. if instead starbow takes the same position as blizzard of combining mech and bio into one playstyle then the firebat and hellbat have significant overlap.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Fishgle
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2174 Posts
April 17 2013 17:06 GMT
#4979
Here's an elegant solution. Hellbats are built out of barracks. Hellions (with vulture attack) are built from factory. They can transform into each other, but it requires a cheap upgrade at the machine shop.
aka ChillyGonzalo / GnozL
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
April 17 2013 17:29 GMT
#4980
New patch up on EU.
Creator of Starbow
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