On April 15 2013 18:10 Xiphias wrote: Who's up for playing tonight btw. We need to produce out a good number of games to test this patch! I am also concidering casting a good game in the new patch if it's balanced to get more people playing again.
I have a little time so I want to make a post where I put down the units the way I think it should be now:
Terran (probably the hardest): Barracks: - Marines - Medics (with stim, sure) - Firebats - Reapers. - Ghosts (need something new on these guys....,)
Factory: - Vultures - Tanks - Goliaths.
Hellions just feel..... Not right for Starbow. Bring back vultures with mines, hence the firebat to have some early splash vs manyl lings. I do not expect to see firebats in many other match-ups than TvZ, but whatever. They have their role as well, even if it is a small one.
Also the mines now feel different. Are they changed? THey used to have a differenet movement when they unburrowed and charged at you, more slowly accelerated. I liked that. Maybe I'm just seeing things...
The rest as it is.
About Reapers: I like their new stats. They can do dmg, but a good socuting / defencive player will take very little dmg from them. Not imba atm imo. Would be cool to try JohnnyZergs Charges idea (and then ofc remove the + dmg vs building upgrade) BUT! make the charges upgrade to require armory or, at least a factory. It can do to a worker line what a reaver drop can do, and that is not cool for the early game, that is mid-game. It gives the reaper a role both early game, mid and late game actually.
Protoss: Changes: Replace immortal with some spellcaster. Make the spellcaster have at least guardian shield. Yes the one that the senteries have (maybe even better since this is robo-tech). Why? It can be used in many settings and is never "bad".
Why remove the immortal? With the shield activated ability it becomes old immortal again, and I just picked off 3-4 tanks for free with 3 immortals from a heavy siged position when the immortals had no support (It would have been for free had I not been gready and picked off a fifth before the shield wore down....). This would be neccecary if protoss had no way to deal with mech, but protoss has: Speedlots, crossairs, storm, stasis and tempest (which can deal with a siged position much better than a few carriers could). I see no need for the immortal.
Replace tempest with Carrier. You don't even have to add carrier micor because that is added in HoTS by default now. The main reason for this is that both of these units rarely see battle anyway and having the carrier is iconic. Another reason is that the tempest now just feels too much like a void ray, and we just love them don' t we.. They are still massable, but are also better in smaller numbers. They break terrans siege lines and zerg's everything. Carriers are more of a gamble, getting one or two is risky, and you need a critical amount. Getting one or two tempest always pays off if you keep them with your army, and massing them is still good.
Zerg: I like zerg atm. Not many changes has been made either. I love the new scourge, both model and ability. I would like to play ZvZ with the new scourge some (muta-battles). I like how Vipers can be made by just having a Hive (correct?), making them better than the rarley seen Swarm Guardian. Maybe consume units again. More of a desition-based play. Consuming buildings are just boring....
Change build cost for devouver. It is 50/100 like guardian. Too bad if every high-tech zerg air is super gas intensive. Maybe 150/50 or something is better (125/50)
I know I do not carry the greatest arguments , but I think this suggested line-up will bring this game a little back to its old glory but also add a few interesting changes. I am always a fan of small changes and not large ones.
There will be a tournamnet soon! We just need a balanced, stable patch first. Stay tuned
If the reaper has the mines snapshots, you must change the jetpack ability :
When the reaper use the jetpack to get on or off a cliff, add a cooldown of 20 seconds (add duration bar on reaper) to be able to repeat this operation. To use this skill could you could add a search. I think reducing the speed of the reaper, and give the StimPack to it, is not a bad idea. Remove the healing ability, since the medic is available from the beginning. This is to prevent abuse of mobility reaper.
I think the damage (snapshot mines) is not high, because in addition to make friendly damage, this mine does not always go to sign (enemy unit can escape).
Snapshotmines require a cooldown of 20 sec. Have a range of launch of 5, and explode 5 seconds after launch. Make a splash damage (friendly damage). Radius 1,125 = 100% damage Radius 1,666 = 50% damage Radius 2,5 = 25% damage
Damage snapshot mines (try it) 35 vs light 70 vs "medium" 105 vs armored 100 vs build
Currently damage (tested) 50vs light 75 vs "medium" 100 vs armored 150 vs build
The damage vs armor units may seem high, but it is the only way that bio has to break a positioning (tanks, lurker, reaver, ht, immortal ecc...). 35 damage vs light, allows you to do little damage to workers.
If you add this reaper, you must remove the Firebat/hellbat
@Hellion + mines I think hellion + mines is a cool units. Must be balanced and only as a last choice, replaced with the old vulture. We have seen very few games in which it is used, and it is not enough to judge it.
Must we change the jetpack ability if the mines snapshot (or whatever we are going to call this) is an upgrade that require armory or factory? I don't mind the reaper getting a new and good ability midgame, as long as it's not imba early game.
To tell the truth I'd like to set the updates right away. Reaper if what I say has 3 upgrade:
Stimpack (currently cost) reaper movement speed without stimpack should 2.95 (as stalker). Jetpack 100/100 80 sec (require tech lab) Description: Give the ability at reaper to skip the cliff. After performing this operation, you must wait 20 seconds to be repeated. Snapshot mines 100/100 80 sec (require tech lab) Description: Enable snapshot mines at reaper.
A reaper if enters in opponent main, jumping from a cliff, have to use a ramp to exit. You can of course do the opposite. This reaper could be interesting, in the early and middle stages of a T vs T, trying to destroy a bunker, using 3 snapshot mines. In the mid game can be useful for destroying massed tanks. In addition to giving a viable option for bio T vs P. Snapshot mines of the reaper may also be useful vs zerg to destroy lurker.
Edit: The values, however, can be changed. But remember that the reaper is a fragile unity Yes, I thought vs buildings, 100 damage is more than good, because buildings can not move, which means a 100% chance of being affected. But 50 damage vs armored units that is quite useless, think spider mines (nearly always affects and does 100 damage).
Johnny, sorry, but you gotta be kiddin with these numbers. 10 reapers would basically one shot hatch/cc.
Also 5sec before explosion will make it impossible to use vs anything but static defence.
I do think that we will get better results with more realistic values like 30dmg vs all(and if any bonus for sure not more than +20vs armored), 2sec before. explosion and 8-10 sec.
Overall I like that idea and I think that it has potential to be really nice alternative to just grenades vs buildings.
You can use only 3 mines per vulture. You can't use them vs buildings. You can destroy spider mines. Spider mines can kill each other. Spider mines can't be used vs workers. Vultures can't skip static defences so easly. Spider mines are much more of defensive mechanic than offensive with huge potential to delay opponent greatly.
Reapers imho should be as different as possible from vultures. Cd on snapshot, passive healing, cliff jumping, but less of "direct " power. More fragile with worse dps but potential to be annoying. Vultures =expendable mineral heavy harassers, , reapers= expensive, constantly annoying ninjas.
On April 16 2013 23:59 Danko__ wrote: You can use only 3 mines per vulture. You can't use them vs buildings. You can destroy spider mines. Spider mines can kill each other. Spider mines can't be used vs workers. Vultures can't skip static defences so easly. Spider mines are much more of defensive mechanic than offensive with huge potential to delay opponent greatly.
Reapers imho should be as different as possible from vultures. Cd on snapshot, passive healing, cliff jumping, but less of "direct " power. More fragile with worse dps but potential to be annoying. Vultures =expendable mineral heavy harassers, , reapers= expensive, constantly annoying ninjas.
For this we must all work together and try to improve it. Anyway I told you to remove passive healing, is useless Because medic is available from the beginning. Skip the cliff is heavily nerfed. It stay connected research and after cliff jumps reaper is dead to 100% (20 sec cooldown jump). Even snapshot mines require research. Now reaper is slower (2.95) but has StimPack (always stay connected research). Damage vs. build I said I may be revised (maybe 80 or 100), since snapshot mines affects 100% build (do not move). However, mines and sniper snapshot mines have advantages and disadvantages.
This is an opportunity to make reaper more useful. Is useless make an unit is good in harass in early early game. A unit of this kind is doomed to failure, as it can not be very strong (look wol/hots reaper). I want to publish a unit test map where there is this reaper so that you can try it out and judge (obviously will already have research skills (will be only a draft). Thx for read and for the support ^^
Starbow - Reaper version (unit test map) published!
I do belive that passive healing is great addition to reaper and greatly increases its viability and rewards thoughtful usage. It's another trait which distinguishes them from vults/helions (which are often just saced for couple of workers).
Cliff jumping is another great tool making reapers so unique and giving opportunities for great micro battles. Without ridiculous WoL bonus vs light I do think reapers are much better now for gameplay.
With some aditional utility they are gonna be great mid game scouts and and units able to take all opportunities to get small advantages here and there. But that shouldn't be done by crippling their early game potential.
Yeah, even though medics are available, you would many times make 3-5 reapers before you start medic production, so passive healing is a good ability if the dmg is not too good.
Has any thought been put into making the reaper an expensive specialist like the Ghost? Im sure people remember the commando in the old command and conquer games. Give it abilities to demolish buildings and steal enemy resources along with passive healing and cliff dodging for evasion.
I think the snapshot mines are a great idea, but we have to be careful about balance.
Its possible to throw down 20 of these in a tight cluster if you want to, so most buildings would be killed in one volley if they are not appropriately balanced... (perhaps make the mines reward you for spreading them out more?) On the other hand its a great ability, that ties in with the reaper being a non-throwaway harass unit that costs gas. Cliff jumping can go away for all i care.
The problem is that we should do a few things at a time, and try for a while. I think hellion + mines not need of hellbat. Try them for 1 week, and try to balance them for a couple of times. Not working? well, back to vulture + mines. Idem for reaper.
But the thing that I did not understand: what is too good of hellion with mines? Is too strong the damage of hellion attack? Are too strong mines? It's too strongly the coupled? For every question I asked, the solution is obvious. Just make attempts. I also thought of giving snapshots mines at hellion and spider mines at reaper (but this could compromise the T vs. P), and make hellion too strong vs harvesters.
EPT
