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The problem is the difficulty to balance a unit to be good in harass and in combat. The reaper is currently only a harass unit (which it also does bad). Hellion is very strong to harass but in combat , is really scanty (see vs. Protoss or Terran).
The best way to make These units blackberries effective in combat, is give you new skills at the expense of fighting power and make it less effective harass Therefore, it is balanced by the fact that new skills.
Reaper jump, yeah! it is a cool skill, but it is a bad desing, that breaks what is a natural defense, the cliff.For this reaper may not be a strong unit. However, i do not want eliminate it completely this ability, but limit it. And this limitation we can use it to our advantage:
If the jump is a skill temporary, it could be interesting: Active skill, jump in the main opponent, and now? I have to be careful, if i are too greedy to destroy the workers, then the jump time runs out, and I can not save my reaper. To make this skill more interesting, you could add a bost at the speed of movement (this comes in synergy with the Marines).
@Snapshots Mines
I do not like those of the country of wol. The mine is expected to be launched only one with a splash damage reduced (as spider mines), and should do more damage to armored units, and less effective against light units. (mines explodes 5 seconds after launch). This mine, should Have a cooldown time (20 sec). This makes it more valuable reapers after use.
Ultimate reaper fix:
These 2 skills, I like add them to the wol reaper, and change bt from 40 sec to 30, keeping your costs the same.
All this is theory, and only putting it into practice you will find out if it will be a top or a flop.
Edit: firebat/hellbat is a units with a bad desing. Reaper and marines can run screaming (StimPack and new jetpack ability for Increased movement).
@Hider
+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2013 00:40 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 00:11 JohnnyZerg wrote:
The problem is the difficulty to balance a unit to be good in harass and in combat. The reaper is currently only a harass unit (which it also does bad). Hellion is very strong to harass but in combat , is really scanty (see vs. Protoss or Terran).
The best way to make These units blackberries effective in combat, is give you new skills at the expense of fighting power and make it less effective harass Therefore, it is balanced by the fact that new skills.
Reaper jump, yeah! it is a cool skill, but it is a bad desing, that breaks what is a natural defense, the cliff.For this reaper may not be a strong unit. However, i do not want eliminate it completely this ability, but limit it. And this limitation we can use it to our advantage:
If the jump is a skill temporary, it could be interesting: Active skill, jump in the main opponent, and now? I have to be careful, if i are too greedy to destroy the workers, then the jump time runs out, and I can not save my reaper. To make this skill more interesting, you could add a bost at the speed of movement (this comes in synergy with the Marines).
@Snapshots Mines
I do not like those of the country of wol. The mine is expected to be launched only one with a splash damage reduced (as spider mines), and should do more damage to armored units, and less effective against light units. (mines explodes 5 seconds after launch). This mine, should Have a cooldown time (20 sec). This makes it more valuable reapers after use.
Ultimate reaper fix:
These 2 skills, I like add them to the wol reaper, and change bt from 40 sec to 30, keeping your costs the same.
All this is theory, and only putting it into practice you will find out if it will be a top or a flop.
Edit: firebat/hellbat is a units with a bad desing. Reaper and marines can run screaming (StimPack and new jetpack ability for Increased movement). It does break natural defenses which means that reapers needs to be quite weak (they must not be able to do to much damage too quickly) as you correctly point out. I do think your suggestion will make it possible to buff the reaper so that it becomes more usefull in a straight up fight. But I personally prefer the idea of making it a pure harass unit. I want great high apm terran players to have 5-8 reapers constantly running around the map, killing pylons/cannons/crawlers/other buildings and then move on to a new location. Terran already have enough battleoriented units, why does the reaper needs to be usefull in a fight?
To make a bio choice for all mu. However bio is still strong harass using dropship. Dark swarm is the main problem in T vs Z. Bio can not fight it if you did not Firebat, and the alternative is to escape but this is not enough. Add small splash damage attack primary reaper (through a t3 upgrade), could make this unit useful in late game.
Now reaper is a unit that if used well plays a great role to harass / combat. If sent a-click, simply dies.
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On April 14 2013 00:11 JohnnyZerg wrote:
The problem is the difficulty to balance a unit to be good in harass and in combat. The reaper is currently only a harass unit (which it also does bad). Hellion is very strong to harass but in combat , is really scanty (see vs. Protoss or Terran).
The best way to make These units blackberries effective in combat, is give you new skills at the expense of fighting power and make it less effective harass Therefore, it is balanced by the fact that new skills.
Reaper jump, yeah! it is a cool skill, but it is a bad desing, that breaks what is a natural defense, the cliff.For this reaper may not be a strong unit. However, i do not want eliminate it completely this ability, but limit it. And this limitation we can use it to our advantage:
If the jump is a skill temporary, it could be interesting: Active skill, jump in the main opponent, and now? I have to be careful, if i are too greedy to destroy the workers, then the jump time runs out, and I can not save my reaper. To make this skill more interesting, you could add a bost at the speed of movement (this comes in synergy with the Marines).
@Snapshots Mines
I do not like those of the country of wol. The mine is expected to be launched only one with a splash damage reduced (as spider mines), and should do more damage to armored units, and less effective against light units. (mines explodes 5 seconds after launch). This mine, should Have a cooldown time (20 sec). This makes it more valuable reapers after use.
Ultimate reaper fix:
These 2 skills, I like add them to the wol reaper, and change bt from 40 sec to 30, keeping your costs the same.
All this is theory, and only putting it into practice you will find out if it will be a top or a flop.
Edit: firebat/hellbat is a units with a bad desing. Reaper and marines can run screaming (StimPack and new jetpack ability for Increased movement).
It does break natural defenses which means that reapers needs to be quite weak (they must not be able to do to much damage too quickly) as you correctly point out.
I do think your suggestion will make it possible to buff the reaper so that it becomes more usefull in a straight up fight. But I personally prefer the idea of making it a pure harass unit. I want great high apm terran players to have 5-8 reapers constantly running around the map, killing pylons/cannons/crawlers/other buildings and then move on to a new location. Terran already have enough battleoriented units, why does the reaper needs to be usefull in a fight?
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One of your suggestions
I try to look at solutions that are easy for players to adapt to, would be quite easy to balance, and make sense out of what players expect from the units. And of course contribute to good gameplay. I am currently looking at the Firebat/Marauder weapon switch suggestion. (Idea by Sumadin)
What about this line-up for Terran?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zg6dfGZ.jpg)
The "Marauder/Firebat unit" can get a different skin and another name to make it not look as the normal Marauder/Firebat.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BuGoUhu.jpg)
It will be able to swtich between two kinds of very different attacks - maybe one "melee" attack and one ranged attack.
Maybe a combination of the Firebat & Marauder attack, but with modified stats?
What would a unit like this bring to the game?
- It would turn the "lame" Firebat into something more useful in all match-ups.
- It would make bio viable in all match-ups, even in TvT.
- Mech can remain as it is, with the Vulture and Spider mine. strong Siege tanks etc.
- It would solve the "Terran puzzle" ? (Aka give Terran a unit which can have the Spider mine, add a "melee" attack unit to Terran AND make bio more viable in all match-ups.)
Important things!
- It shall NOT be a super marauder. A Stalker, Hydra and definitely a Siege tank would beat it in a 1v1.
- It shall NOT make pure bio able to beat everything. (As in SC2)
- A bio army must still use assistance from high tech units to be able to fight vs P, Z and T in the late game.
- OK damage vs armored, OK damage vs melee units, can tank some dmg, but NOT a ultimate massable unit.
- Maybe stim pack?
- Maybe the weapon switch ability requires an upgrade? It stars with flame-attack and can switch to ranged armored dmg? (Or maybe even melee armored dmg? O_o)
I keep this post short and simple. I do not say this is the best solution and that I MUST add it. I am merely thinking about it.
1. What problems do you see with it?
2. What advantages do you see?
3. Would this be balanceable?
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New map I have been working on yesterday.
+ Show Spoiler +
Initially calling it Junction, or Starbow Junction, or Y Junction.
2 player map with a destination sort of approach. Rush distances are not very close, but you don't have a ramp for your main or natural, just a pylon tight wall for your main and a forge FE wall for your natural. This lets an opponent make some sort of early aggression be more effective with the rush distance.
Securing the large ramp above your natural and the choke above it will secure your third base. 2 chokes next to your big ramp and you've secured your fourth base. It gets much trickier towards the end of the game getting your fifth base up, but the choke should allow some solid defense to prevent any small attacks.
My biggest concern is it might be harder for Z's. T and P if playing safe can quite easily secure at least four bases. Z would need complete map control to grab the bottom two bases to out expand his opponent. I am wondering if I should add more bases, perhaps on the low ground somewhere.
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Nice map Dec. Send it to me when you feel satisfied and I'll publish it on EU. The next patch will not be up today. Mainly because I am still evaluating different line-ups for Terran. I'll have it up by tomorrow instead.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2013 01:21 Kabel wrote:One of your suggestionsI try to look at solutions that are easy for players to adapt to, would be quite easy to balance, and make sense out of what players expect from the units. And of course contribute to good gameplay. I am currently looking at the Firebat/Marauder weapon switch suggestion. (Idea by Sumadin) What about this line-up for Terran? The "Marauder/Firebat unit" can get a different skin and another name to make it not look as the normal Marauder/Firebat. It will be able to swtich between two kinds of very different attacks - maybe one "melee" attack and one ranged attack. Maybe a combination of the Firebat & Marauder attack, but with modified stats? What would a unit like this bring to the game? - It would turn the "lame" Firebat into something more useful in all match-ups. - It would make bio viable in all match-ups, even in TvT. - Mech can remain as it is, with the Vulture and Spider mine. strong Siege tanks etc. - It would solve the "Terran puzzle" ? (Aka give Terran a unit which can have the Spider mine, add a "melee" attack unit to Terran AND make bio more viable in all match-ups.)
Important things! - It shall NOT be a super marauder. A Stalker, Hydra and definitely a Siege tank would beat it in a 1v1. - It shall NOT make pure bio able to beat everything. (As in SC2) - A bio army must still use assistance from high tech units to be able to fight vs P, Z and T in the late game. - OK damage vs armored, OK damage vs melee units, can tank some dmg, but NOT a ultimate massable unit. - Maybe stim pack? - Maybe the weapon switch ability requires an upgrade? It stars with flame-attack and can switch to ranged armored dmg? (Or maybe even melee armored dmg? O_o) I keep this post short and simple. I do not say this is the best solution and that I MUST add it. I am merely thinking about it.
1. What problems do you see with it?
2. What advantages do you see?
3. Would this be balanceable?
Cool, now i answer at your 3 questions listed, according to me.
1. What problems do you see with it?
We have removed a way to harass workers (if reaper is been replaced with this new unit). I think this is a no-micro unit (i not consider micro: a-move and back move, a-move and back move... or press a button to change in firebat mode).
2. What advantages do you see?
Could fill those holes that bio has
3. Would this be balanceable?
We must try to see
thoughts:
I think this unit will not be very useful vs Terran / Protoss if not in large quantities, could promote the game Deathball, but in practice it might work differently.
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Alright since you are looking at my idea i should go deeper into what i think should apply for this unit.
The Firebat/Marauder should have same Hp, cost production time and movement speed in both forms. It is not a hellbat the only thing that changes is its weapons during the transformation nothing on its armor(other than a paintchange
maybe). Now as for the strength of the marauder i agree in that siegetanks and Hydras should beat it 1v1 and i think that is already the case. A Stalker beating a Marauder 1v1 is not something i agree with however. They are similar tiered units with the stalker being the one that can attack air, and also got the (weaker granted) warpin and blink. We would also need to go out of our way to nerf the marauder as not even a 3/3/3 stalker can currently beat a 0/0 Marauder(They kill eachother). Also if siege tanks are caught unsieged against a bunch of marauders then it should still be a bad day for the meching player.
Now as for the transformation thing it can be done in a couple of ways.
On-field transformation(The HOTS thor way)
So basicly like Thor in HOTS Firebats/Marauders would have an activatable ability that would change its weapon type and animations. Really simple.
Pros:
-No triggerworks needed. Blizzard already implemented a simmilar ability for Thors in HOTS. Just copy-paste and get it adjusted properly.
-Depending on the time it takes to transform there would be varied amought of need of a "hybrid tax". Ideally we could get to a point where it is not needed.
Neg:
-The model is going to be fancy as it would likely need to use same or simmilar model in both forms.
Base refit facility(My own idea).
Basicly this is what i talked about before with using a production building(factory for example) to refit or transform a firebat/Marauder into its other form. It would take up productiontime on the building in question but nowhere as long as training a new unit.
Pros:
-Solves the issues with models as it is easy to explain how a ultraquick paintjob is part of the refit.Just use the default ones.
-If factory was chosen it would force bio players to keep some factory around and maybe even build more depending on how fast he would need to change the firebat/marauders around, thus elimination the notion that it is just pure barracks units around. Also makes it easy to explain how one of the forms would require factory tech.
-There would be very little or no need for Hybrid tax with this design in mind.
Negs:
-I don't know if/how it can be done.
I am not a fan of having the Firebat/Marauder use both attacks at once. The reason is that there would likely need to be a heavy hybrid tax with this model. Now coming from Wow i can tell you hybrid taxes bring nothing but headaches for the designers. The difference between a unit that is too good at everything versus one that sucks at everything can get ultrasmall. Our safest bet is to make a design that assume that each form keeps its strengths and weaknesses constant during a battle and is only able to shuffle those around outside of that.
So before i end this post i was thinking about a name for this new Marauder/firebat, In case we go with a model that requires same name for both forms. How does Juggernaut sound?
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Kabel i like where ur heads at with that maurader/firebat, sounds cool! Would love to try it out.
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Well, I am still considering other alternatives too. The patch will be up tomorrow with some kind of change atleast.
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Dec, map looks good, any thoughts with experimenting with more regenerating minerals per map? Im curious if there are mining strategies that would be emergent from this. Which inturn could lead to more harassment and dynamic battlefield movement.
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The problem is that without making it a supermaurauder it won't serve any purpose at all. Tanks are buffed so why wouldn't you always priortize tanks over weaker maurauders? Espeically since there is no medivac so bio is more immobile than in Sc2.
The only way to make it somewhat usefull would be to buff its movement speed quite signifcantly.
A Stalker beating a Marauder 1v1 is not something i agree with however.
With weaker warp tech a stalker has to beat it/at least trade somewhat even.
We would also need to go out of our way to nerf the marauder as not even a 3/3/3 stalker can currently beat a 0/0 Marauder(They kill eachother)
This is basically why it doesn't really make any sense for Kabel to implement weak maurauders without a signifcant change to how it works. Basically only way to make the maurauder not beat a stalker and still make it usefull would be increase movement speed by like 30%+ (and keep stim I guess). Terran doesn't have any supermobile unit that is decent against armored units so that would give the maurauder a role in the game.
- It shall NOT make pure bio able to beat everything. (As in SC2)
- A bio army must still use assistance from high tech units to be able to fight vs P, Z and T in the late game.
Are you implying that bio shouldn't be viable even if the bio player outmultitasks the opponent which he uses to gain an economic lead, and then outmicro's the opponent in a battle to win the game?
Or are you simply talking about the cost efficiency of bio (you dont think pure bio should be cost efficient?).
Pure bio isn't really cost efficient in Sc2 either (maybe with the exception when you get 10+ghosts vs protoss and emp everything), so I don't really understand your example if you refer to the latter.
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Gotta agree with Hider on this one.
You either want to build it, or not.
TvZ, easy decision. Firebat.
TvT, no decision. SBOW tanks are just too damn good, They'd need to be super marauders to counter, but then they'd be way too good for TvP.
TvP. The only way you could see meaningful decision to use it or not. It can't be good enough that it would override stalkers, or T would contend vs P's faster map control and break the entire matchup dynamic. If T has a stronger army, and has even bases vs Protoss you've have some seriously broken stuff. See why tanks are nerfed in SC2. On the other hand, they could fit a very tiny role in base defense vs stalkers early game that marines already do with bunkers, but they could do it slightly better. This role is so niche that just getting siege tech (you'd want it anyways) instead of marauders, relying on marines and bunkers for defense is just way better.
Would the marauder have a real role? Marines are the main dps generalist. They already deal damage vs air. Do we need a bio unit that can survive high tech aoe damage?
Changing the units changes how the game plays.
Reverting to BW unit dynamics changed the actual fights to be more like BW fights. A hell of a lot more interesting than TvP SC2. It is very possible to introduce different, but interesting match dynamics, but it would require a lot of overhauling. Think how SC2 TvZ changed over time, from WoL to HOTS. We saw a complete revamp of the match dynamics, definently for the better. In canhanrah's words, HOTS is a lot less straightforward.
So it is possible, but hard. Could be a fun goal to work towards, it would make SBOW less of what some people think of as just a BW clone. It would require tons of creative thought and new interactions between units.
Making straight forward units Blizz did the first go around isn't the way to do it. Making more interesting units like HOTS released with, widow mine, viper, swarm host, oracle. All sorts of units that can literally change a match up.
^^ rant over.
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I had a nidea for an easy fix to the marauder a few days back - might be worth considering in this context.
Basically give the marauder range 2 (or 3) and work as a melee attack. No other noteworthy changes to the standart SC2 marauder.
Suddenly the marauder with concussive can't kite anything but zealots, but can still soak damage and now hurt units under dark swarm.
Adding to this new short range marauder, it has some really fun and intensive interactions with enemy ranged units, trying to get close and lock down hydras, stalkers, vultures or other units trying to disengage, reposition or give chase against your marines. Damage values will have to be changed as it will have less use as an anti armored counter unit. Perhaps more damage versus light units will make them really good at deterring surrounds.
Just a fun thought of how to make a simple change to the basic marauder so it suddenly has an entirely different function in the terran army.
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Alright right off that bat. Trying to make a marauder that loses to stalkers but wins against the Siege tanks that beats stalkers themself is like trying to construct a penrose triangle. Impossible. We could however look at other ways to make the design fit.
Ill try to make a short(by my standards) post about the roles that i think the marauder should cover, and how it should roughly work.
Marauder vs Zerg:
Nothing in the early game. Firebat would be the high default here.
Potentially some use in midgame vs lurkers(They are armored? Not sure)
Decent support vs Ultralisks through you really should also add some tanks by that time.
Marauder vs Tank:
Any strategy involving charging straight against a sieged position should be suicidal!
Fighting mech should be much like it was done in WOL with assaulting everywhere the slower mech army isn't.
Catching a meching player with his tanks unsieged should always give a favor to the bio player.
Disabling the tanks with Science wessels would be essential in order to take on a position, through of course nuking would also be an option.
Marauder vs Protoss:
Stalkers will have to lose vs Marauders. Marauders are the groundfocused anti-armor where as stalkers got more utility with attacking air and higher mobility with Blink.
Zealots however should be a stronger counter to marauders. This could be done through adjusting the movespeed if the units.
Archons and Reavers should still be strong counter to both forms of the marauder and marines aswell forcing some airsupport from Science vessels.
Wild random suggestions to try and archieve these goals:
Make the default cargosize of all Bio units 1 (To salvage some of the dropplay from WOL even without healing dropships)
Zealots gains a movement speed bonus when charge is reasearched. Remove the boost and make this speed their default(Not sure if this will be enough or if it would affect other matchups).
Slightly increase the range a ghost can call down a nuke from(Because Nukes are awesome and to promote using them to unsiege tanks).
Alright it is 3 AM good night guys.
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I tried marines + reapers (with snapshot mines modified), I can say that they are strong, but damn difficult to use. I have to have separate control groups to use skills in sync (I have to switch from marines for StimPack at reaper for snapshot mines and to activated jump/speed ability). This could create some interesting situations. I can use snapshot mines for destory spider mines and tank (because are immobile).
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On April 14 2013 05:46 Archerofaiur wrote:
Dec, map looks good, any thoughts with experimenting with more regenerating minerals per map? Im curious if there are mining strategies that would be emergent from this. Which inturn could lead to more harassment and dynamic battlefield movement.
The regenerating mineral is mainly just used as a better form of a destructible rock. It allows for some sneaky play when the opponent isn't looking, but easily countered when you see it coming.
Compare and contrast:
Rocks: You don't stop your opponent from shooting at it from range and busting in.
Mineral Patch: A worker has to be brought. Requires forethought, not just units on the field. Easy to stop if you know its coming. You can also open it up for your own use.
Regenerating minerals does give me ideas though. It could help the goal of having more bases used across the map. Starbow bases dry up extremely quickly, giving the incentive to expand. If you had bases that didn't actually drain, such as if they regenerate you wouldn't want to expand if your eco is already satisfied. On the other hand if they drain fast but regenerate slowly you'd be rewarded for pulling off your main to mine your next base before they run out.
Segway thought I've been thinking about lately.
If the entire eco was reduced so you want 5 bases to get the same income as 3 bases you wouldn't need to expand so quickly (or die), but you'd still want more bases. If you don't, your opponent will be able to just throw units at you and whittle you down.
I had this sort of thinking before, but what regenerating minerals does as a regular source of income could be pretty cool. It would give an apm sink for macro, making it more of an active process like Brood War and a constant back to base mechanic without being an artificial interface limit.
Interesting ^^ Might be a complete pain in the ass though. Especially for SC2 players coming to Starbow. If you forget to send miners to work in Starbow you've lost time, but the minerals are not literally gone.
Additionally, the regen would have to be slow enough that there cannot be an endless stalemate. A mining out, or very damn close to it must occur. Perhaps a limit on the regen.
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On April 13 2013 04:32 decemberscalm wrote:No ideas are bad ^^. Also, Purakushi had a pretty fun idea you might like. I showed him the micro I came up with. He suggested that you add a splash to the hellion that travels further the longer you are aimed towards a target. In this way you can be more risky by aiming towards targets longer and potentially splash more opponents. This keeps the splash aspect of hellion intact. A nice balance of risk reward would be added in addition to the already risky and apm intensive back and forth dance. Cool stuff, at least I think so  .
Interesting, that creates a new skill to develop for players
On April 13 2013 04:32 decemberscalm wrote:
@Reaper
If the reaper kills buildings cheaper and more efficiently than a dropship of stim marines, wouldn't everyone have to put cannons at their cliffs? I think Reapers should stay as low damage eco raiders. What about an upgrade that lets them toggle flight ahahahah, which will also give them a slightly movement speed bonus.
I can't find any role you'd need them for mid-late game. Banshee, drops, vultures/hellions, are already AMAZING eco raiders. Not to mention marine drops shut down tech structures pretty damn quick without a response. They serve their purpose for early game action instead of the 3 minutes of nothing that BW has sans cheese.
@Johnny
Snapshot mines could be a nice to give them a little bit of added utility, but I feel like the same thing will happen. No one will get the upgrade for it because no one will want to build the reaper mid-late game. They are just too fragile to be used as army, and not good enough as harassment units later on.
I made a suggestion before:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=239#4776
D-8 Charge: Toggle auto cast versus buildings. Throws a charge at the ground below the target. After 10 seconds, detonates, doing 50 splash damage to any buildings or units in a small area. Cooldown: 10 seconds, Range 7. The charge is visible to all units and cannot be targetted/destroyed.
Gauss Pistol: 4x2 damage, as per HotS. Can attack while D-8 is on cooldown.
The reapers have only the HoTS level attack, but the explosive power power of the mines potential 50 splash damage (cast onto building or ground, but with 8-10 second delay before exploding), makes them always have a potential use, if only the player can get the right angle and timing.
Want to delay their army? Use the d-8 attack constantly on the ground ahead of their push. Want to attack? d-8 the area that makes up the favourable concave around their choke. It's like spider mines but totally different.
Reapers are strong against lone defenses and even lone tanks (they can tank 1 direct hit, and have auto regeneration). Anymore than 3 tanks will stop them cold though, which is I guess ok.
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I will have the new patch up tonight. Maybe 5 hours from now.
Good thoughts from you all. I guess I will go with the easiest solution for this patch.
Vulture with Spider mines
Firebat
Reaper with upgrade that can attack buildings
In total: + Show Spoiler +
Marine
Firebat
Medic
Reaper
Ghost
Vulture
Tank
Goliath
---
Another alternative:
Hellion with Spider mines + Hellbat transformation that costs minerals each time? (Or just scrap the Hellbat)
Reaper with upgrade that can attack buildings.
In total: + Show Spoiler +Marine
Medic
Reaper
Ghost
Hellion/Hellbat + Spider mines
Tank
Goliath
It will be something atleast, so we can try it and see how it feels. ...... .. . . ...,. .,.,.
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@kabel
We have already tried vulture mines + for a long time, and gave us good results, but we can do better, then try hellion + mines, without hellbat mode. (mines are pretty good vs lings, and for this damage should be changed). Reduce damage vs light and increased damage vs medium/armored units. If all this does not work, then back to the old + vulture mines, we can say that we tried...
Reaper in wol did not work, what makes you think it can work on Starbow? Spend 200 gas (4 reaper) to destroy 1 pylon once in a while, I do not think enough repay. I like that you want to try the news.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/y4pddZG.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lRqWqGj.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LRV1WZB.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FDgnRyP.jpg)
http://imgur.com/LRV1WZB,FDgnRyP,lRqWqGj#0
