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On April 13 2013 03:48 Sumadin wrote:
Well i guess i could elaborate a little more on my hybrid firebat. The firebat down to its core is almost useless against Protoss and Terran. The simple reason is that the majority of the Protoss and Terran mech army consists mostly of armored units with decent range, where a much higher treat from the zerg comes from the melee zerglings.
Marauders on the other finds themself in the reverse end. What use would they have in starbow against Zerg? There is no roaches, firebats tanks banelings just as good. It pretty much is Ultralisks only. On the other hand we all know how good they are against Protoss and Terran in HOTS, not much changes there. This is kinda where the hybrid unit idea comes from.
"But they kill tanks too well". This is something i heard when arguing about this before or something similar, and i have to ask something. What is suposed to kill tanks then? If the answer is "your own tanks" then that also answers why mech is seemingly the only valid strat in Starbow TvT. Marines alone just doesn't cut it for bio.
That brings me to my second point on my previous suggestion. I don't just wanna remove their stim as "a joke about "Hey, if you don't want drastic changes to the unit, it's not like removing stim would be drastic"". I want to bring a little more finesse into the use of marauders. One of the problems i have with HOTS bio vs Mech is how easy bio units can just stim charge into a sieged position. Without marauder stim, the bioing player will have to be more cautions how he/she takes on mech, rely more on dropships to land on the tanks or nuke to force the tanks to unsiege. Basicly bring more decision-making into bio use with the removal of the marauders stim. That is the theory anyway. Showing off the Blizzard clip was just a way to explain that marauders wouldn't be completely wrecked with the removal of stim.
Without maurauder stim maurauder will be too immobile, thus it needs to be compensated by its cost efficiency. This means that you can't split up your tanks efficienctly --> deathball scenarios.
Bio actually reduces the amount of ways ("decisions") you can use the maurauder as there is no way of abusing the immobilty of the opponent.
The best solution is IMO not to bring back the maurauder as it doesn't add anything to the game in terms of design. It only serves to balance bio, but I think bio can be balanced in other more interesting ways.
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No ideas are bad ^^.
Brainstorming is always nice.
@Marauder
The main reason people are iffy is because it is such a badly designed unit, with or without stim/concussion. Stim makes it slightly more interesting, but its literally just a beefier marine in that case.
It is simply another HP creeped unit, which is all blizz was able to come up with for sc2 that didn't have any real difference besides countering something early game that shouldn't be countered that early on (fortified positions and slow armored targets).
@Hider
You are on the same wavelength of mine. The 1-way transformation is very possible, I already have my test hellion doing such a thing. Same with the transformation cost.
I have a few problems and few likes of the idea.
Pros: Transformation requires decision making. This one is pretty obvious, especially if coupled with 1-way and min cost.
Cons: Cheapens composition. It just rubs me the wrong way that you can instantly make a wall of hellbats for buffering your tanks. What units you produce should very much matter. Seems silly that if spend the time and money on a bunch of hellions, at any point in time you can mini tech switch to hellbats. Maybe this isn't so bad, but it erks me.
Also, Purakushi had a pretty fun idea you might like. I showed him the micro I came up with. He suggested that you add a splash to the hellion that travels further the longer you are aimed towards a target. In this way you can be more risky by aiming towards targets longer and potentially splash more opponents. This keeps the splash aspect of hellion intact. A nice balance of risk reward would be added in addition to the already risky and apm intensive back and forth dance. Cool stuff, at least I think so  .
@Reaper
If the reaper kills buildings cheaper and more efficiently than a dropship of stim marines, wouldn't everyone have to put cannons at their cliffs? I think Reapers should stay as low damage eco raiders. What about an upgrade that lets them toggle flight ahahahah, which will also give them a slightly movement speed bonus.
I can't find any role you'd need them for mid-late game. Banshee, drops, vultures/hellions, are already AMAZING eco raiders. Not to mention marine drops shut down tech structures pretty damn quick without a response. They serve their purpose for early game action instead of the 3 minutes of nothing that BW has sans cheese.
@Johnny
Snapshot mines could be a nice to give them a little bit of added utility, but I feel like the same thing will happen. No one will get the upgrade for it because no one will want to build the reaper mid-late game. They are just too fragile to be used as army, and not good enough as harassment units later on.
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On April 13 2013 03:53 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 03:48 Sumadin wrote:
Well i guess i could elaborate a little more on my hybrid firebat. The firebat down to its core is almost useless against Protoss and Terran. The simple reason is that the majority of the Protoss and Terran mech army consists mostly of armored units with decent range, where a much higher treat from the zerg comes from the melee zerglings.
Marauders on the other finds themself in the reverse end. What use would they have in starbow against Zerg? There is no roaches, firebats tanks banelings just as good. It pretty much is Ultralisks only. On the other hand we all know how good they are against Protoss and Terran in HOTS, not much changes there. This is kinda where the hybrid unit idea comes from.
"But they kill tanks too well". This is something i heard when arguing about this before or something similar, and i have to ask something. What is suposed to kill tanks then? If the answer is "your own tanks" then that also answers why mech is seemingly the only valid strat in Starbow TvT. Marines alone just doesn't cut it for bio.
That brings me to my second point on my previous suggestion. I don't just wanna remove their stim as "a joke about "Hey, if you don't want drastic changes to the unit, it's not like removing stim would be drastic"". I want to bring a little more finesse into the use of marauders. One of the problems i have with HOTS bio vs Mech is how easy bio units can just stim charge into a sieged position. Without marauder stim, the bioing player will have to be more cautions how he/she takes on mech, rely more on dropships to land on the tanks or nuke to force the tanks to unsiege. Basicly bring more decision-making into bio use with the removal of the marauders stim. That is the theory anyway. Showing off the Blizzard clip was just a way to explain that marauders wouldn't be completely wrecked with the removal of stim.
Without maurauder stim maurauder will be too immobile, thus it needs to be compensated by its cost efficiency. This means that you can't split up your tanks efficienctly --> deathball scenarios. Bio actually reduces the amount of ways ("decisions") you can use the maurauder as there is no way of abusing the immobilty of the opponent. The best solution is IMO not to bring back the maurauder as it doesn't add anything to the game in terms of design. It only serves to balance bio, but I think bio can be balanced in other more interesting ways.
Why would they need a compensasion? They would already be able to be refitting into firebats to deal with most of the ground units they don't already deal with, isn't that enough? And the hole point of taking away stim was so that fewer tanks would be able to better deal with a slightly higher number of marauders, all that while still keeping bio as an option(which doesn't seem to be the case currently).
Something we could also look at is the dropship i guess. Compared to other races transport it is kinda lame. Warp prisms can warp in and it is really easy to doom drop with overlords since.. well you need a ton by default, as they provide food. The terran starbow dropship offers little through besides the spped boost, and i can't rememper if it costs gas, which is not the case with the other races transport. I could think of a few things to do with it.
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On April 13 2013 04:32 Sumadin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 03:53 Hider wrote:On April 13 2013 03:48 Sumadin wrote:
Well i guess i could elaborate a little more on my hybrid firebat. The firebat down to its core is almost useless against Protoss and Terran. The simple reason is that the majority of the Protoss and Terran mech army consists mostly of armored units with decent range, where a much higher treat from the zerg comes from the melee zerglings.
Marauders on the other finds themself in the reverse end. What use would they have in starbow against Zerg? There is no roaches, firebats tanks banelings just as good. It pretty much is Ultralisks only. On the other hand we all know how good they are against Protoss and Terran in HOTS, not much changes there. This is kinda where the hybrid unit idea comes from.
"But they kill tanks too well". This is something i heard when arguing about this before or something similar, and i have to ask something. What is suposed to kill tanks then? If the answer is "your own tanks" then that also answers why mech is seemingly the only valid strat in Starbow TvT. Marines alone just doesn't cut it for bio.
That brings me to my second point on my previous suggestion. I don't just wanna remove their stim as "a joke about "Hey, if you don't want drastic changes to the unit, it's not like removing stim would be drastic"". I want to bring a little more finesse into the use of marauders. One of the problems i have with HOTS bio vs Mech is how easy bio units can just stim charge into a sieged position. Without marauder stim, the bioing player will have to be more cautions how he/she takes on mech, rely more on dropships to land on the tanks or nuke to force the tanks to unsiege. Basicly bring more decision-making into bio use with the removal of the marauders stim. That is the theory anyway. Showing off the Blizzard clip was just a way to explain that marauders wouldn't be completely wrecked with the removal of stim.
Without maurauder stim maurauder will be too immobile, thus it needs to be compensated by its cost efficiency. This means that you can't split up your tanks efficienctly --> deathball scenarios. Bio actually reduces the amount of ways ("decisions") you can use the maurauder as there is no way of abusing the immobilty of the opponent. The best solution is IMO not to bring back the maurauder as it doesn't add anything to the game in terms of design. It only serves to balance bio, but I think bio can be balanced in other more interesting ways. Why would they need a compensasion? They would already be able to be refitting into firebats to deal with most of the ground units they don't already deal with, isn't that enough? And the hole point of taking away stim was so that fewer tanks would be able to better deal with a slightly higher number of marauders, all that while still keeping bio as an option(which doesn't seem to be the case currently). Something we could also look at is the dropship i guess. Compared to other races transport it is kinda lame. Warp prisms can warp in and it is really easy to doom drop with overlords since.. well you need a ton by default, as they provide food. The terran starbow dropship offers nothing through, and i can't rememper if it costs gas, which is not the case with the other races transport. I could think of a few things to do with it.
Maurauders without stim and no compensation will be useless vs tanks and you will always prefer getting tanks over maurauders in the other mathcups so I dont see the point in ever getting them.
I think the points you make regarding the ways protoss's and zerg's can drop is quite dangerous from a design perspective. When one race can land half an army inside your base then it can result in suboptimal gameplay (as one race will be forced to defend and the race will play too passive as taking risks can be too dangerous).
I'd say dropships are probably fine atm.
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Dropships don't need a gimmick ^^.
Marine Marauder is already extremely hard vs mech in SC2. You have to be perfect in how you outmaneuver your opponent.
This is with bad siege tank damage, and stim marauders.
Imagine Starbow tanks vs non stim marauders. It would be a sluaghter.
More roundabout counters is more interesting. Nerve Jammer is a beauty to behold. SCV and marines drops are damn effective. BC and banshees also server as counters.
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Ahahahah. Mabye not TvP. You could bully stalkers pretty hard early game. Problem is they would lose their effectiveness vs the mass zealot archon some stalker composition that is so damn effective vs mech when used right properly (and fails horribly when not). Marauders can't run away. Why waste gas and mins when you could have more vulture tank.
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Well that is kinda the time where you would switch the marauders into firebats against the zealots and get some Science vessels in for support. Archons are kinda high tier so it is fine to demand some specialized counters.
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Cons: Cheapens composition. It just rubs me the wrong way that you can instantly make a wall of hellbats for buffering your tanks. What units you produce should very much matter. Seems silly that if spend the time and money on a bunch of hellions, at any point in time you can mini tech switch to hellbats. Maybe this isn't so bad, but it erks me.
This is what you do currently in HOTS. There is no real decision to it as it extremely obvious when you are supposed to have the hellions in hellbat mode. However, I think if pay a price each time you transform the hellion into hellbat mode then you won't do before every single battle. (online when you are afraid of losing/opponent is ling/zealot heavy/dark swarm).
On April 13 2013 04:38 decemberscalm wrote:
Ahahahah. Mabye not TvP. You could bully stalkers pretty hard early game. Problem is they would lose their effectiveness vs the mass zealot archon some stalker composition that is so damn effective vs mech when used right properly (and fails horribly when not). Marauders can't run away. Why waste gas and mins when you could have more vulture tank.
I was mostly thinking about mid/late game - Dno about early game.
If the reaper kills buildings cheaper and more efficiently than a dropship of stim marines, wouldn't everyone have to put cannons at their cliffs?
I think mass cannons on cliffs likely will be suptiomal. Rater you have cannons around nexus's (as you will have regardless) and then you need to rely on actual multitasking (positioning your units correctly) to defend them as cannons alone will not be enough vs 6-8 reapers.
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Well. Terran needed to have a precense and harass earlier. They'll get that with reapers. They have so many harass options later on (hellion/vult, banhsee), no need to make the reaper an all-around unit. I'm fine with it being an early game unit only.
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Perhaps a longer switch time so you can't just switch on a dime.
If you are mech and see the enemy army about to make the big attack, regardless of money cost you will always want to switch. If it takes more time to switch modes it should hopefully promote more careful use of your hellions.
Do I want the hellions and out and harassing? Or do I sense/see a big flank breaking attack coming?
Hopefully this would be halted: "Oh they sent lings to counter my hellions harrass. So cute, let me switch hellions into hellbats so I don't have to micro them anymore."
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On April 13 2013 05:41 Xiphias wrote:
Well. Terran needed to have a precense and harass earlier. They'll get that with reapers. They have so many harass options later on (hellion/vult, banhsee), no need to make the reaper an all-around unit. I'm fine with it being an early game unit only.
Everyone of them gets countered by static defenses. That is where the reapers + damage vs buildings come in. This forces actual multitasking from the opponent rather than relying on preemptive placement of buildings.
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On April 13 2013 05:56 decemberscalm wrote:
Perhaps a longer switch time so you can't just switch on a dime.
If you are mech and see the enemy army about to make the big attack, regardless of money cost you will always want to switch. If it takes more time to switch modes it should hopefully promote more careful use of your hellions.
Do I want the hellions and out and harassing? Or do I sense/see a big flank breaking attack coming?
Hopefully this would be halted: "Oh they sent lings to counter my hellions harrass. So cute, let me switch hellions into hellbats so I don't have to micro them anymore."
If you need to pay 250 minerals (10 hellions) to switch then it might actually not be that efficient if you are not sure whether he will comitt to the attack or whether he just threatens you (which happens a lot when playing against mech).
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On April 13 2013 06:18 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 05:56 decemberscalm wrote:
Perhaps a longer switch time so you can't just switch on a dime.
If you are mech and see the enemy army about to make the big attack, regardless of money cost you will always want to switch. If it takes more time to switch modes it should hopefully promote more careful use of your hellions.
Do I want the hellions and out and harassing? Or do I sense/see a big flank breaking attack coming?
Hopefully this would be halted: "Oh they sent lings to counter my hellions harrass. So cute, let me switch hellions into hellbats so I don't have to micro them anymore."
If you need to pay 250 minerals (10 hellions) to switch then it might actually not be that efficient if you are not sure whether he will comitt to the attack or whether he just threatens you (which happens a lot when playing against mech).
Very true. Similar to baited stims, but has eco cost instead of HP.
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On April 13 2013 06:53 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 06:18 Hider wrote:On April 13 2013 05:56 decemberscalm wrote:
Perhaps a longer switch time so you can't just switch on a dime.
If you are mech and see the enemy army about to make the big attack, regardless of money cost you will always want to switch. If it takes more time to switch modes it should hopefully promote more careful use of your hellions.
Do I want the hellions and out and harassing? Or do I sense/see a big flank breaking attack coming?
Hopefully this would be halted: "Oh they sent lings to counter my hellions harrass. So cute, let me switch hellions into hellbats so I don't have to micro them anymore."
If you need to pay 250 minerals (10 hellions) to switch then it might actually not be that efficient if you are not sure whether he will comitt to the attack or whether he just threatens you (which happens a lot when playing against mech). Very true. Similar to baited stims, but has eco cost instead of HP.
I guess they are somewhat comparable, though there is no time duration on hellbat mode (though actually I considered that as a suggestion 4).
But anyway, I guess these would be my suggestion to the hellion/hellbat
- Increase hellion build time by 5 seconds (this will have almost no effect in the mid/late game, however it will be easier for the zerg player to deal with hellion openings).
- Make spider mine upgrade require armory
- Implement suggestion 2 (each time a hellion is tranformed into a hellbat you pay a price of 25 minerals. You can freely switch to hellion mode but if you wish to switch to hellbat mode once again you pay a further 25 minerals).
- Make hellbat transmation require armory as well (to avoid early timing pushes to be too strong).
I guess if this isn't enough, then we can work on reducing the damage against light units while compensating it in other ways - But lets try to keep that as a plan B.
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Finally am I home from my night work.
First of all, I enjoy the quality of the current discussion! Many well written posts with good ideas and arguments. Unfortunately, we are all people with limited time to devote to play testing. (I suppose atleast.) It is unrealistic to try and explore every idea. As usual, I must use my judgement, gut feeling and go for the path that seems most realistic. Sometimes it turns out ok. Sometimes I fail. : /
I will think about this for tomorrow and probably write a better reply.
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Could we still contact purakushi and get rankings going? Please
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On April 13 2013 06:15 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 05:41 Xiphias wrote:
Well. Terran needed to have a precense and harass earlier. They'll get that with reapers. They have so many harass options later on (hellion/vult, banhsee), no need to make the reaper an all-around unit. I'm fine with it being an early game unit only. Everyone of them gets countered by static defenses. That is where the reapers + damage vs buildings come in. This forces actual multitasking from the opponent rather than relying on preemptive placement of buildings.
I don't mind preemptive building placement as a counter to harass. Reapers are so mobile anyway that cannoning smartly vs them can be difficult. Forcing defenses is an interesting part of the strategy in the first place as well.
Reapers forces the defending player to place canons at mineral lines instead of the front, which can be used as a strategic maneuver.
Also. Could JohnnyZerg send His maps (Purple Storm and Requiem) to Kabel. I would like to see new patch on them. Purple storm at least, since that is the most "normal" and solid map we have atm imo.
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On April 13 2013 15:47 Xiphias wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 06:15 Hider wrote:On April 13 2013 05:41 Xiphias wrote:
Well. Terran needed to have a precense and harass earlier. They'll get that with reapers. They have so many harass options later on (hellion/vult, banhsee), no need to make the reaper an all-around unit. I'm fine with it being an early game unit only. Everyone of them gets countered by static defenses. That is where the reapers + damage vs buildings come in. This forces actual multitasking from the opponent rather than relying on preemptive placement of buildings. I don't mind preemptive building placement as a counter to harass. Reapers are so mobile anyway that cannoning smartly vs them can be difficult. Forcing defenses is an interesting part of the strategy in the first place as well. Reapers forces the defending player to place canons at mineral lines instead of the front, which can be used as a strategic maneuver. Also. Could JohnnyZerg send His maps (Purple Storm and Requiem) to Kabel. I would like to see new patch on them. Purple storm at least, since that is the most "normal" and solid map we have atm imo.
Hey Xiphias - I talked about this in my previous post on creating an actionpacked game.
The thing is - When you overincentivize just one player to invest into static defense rather than harass, then neither player (tvp mech) can really do anything in the midgame.
So when photo cannons counter all terrans harass options quite well, then the protoss player will naturally invest into them, and then the terran player will always be better off defending (investing in turrets to prevent the protoss from harassing) rather than suciding hellions into the opponents mineral line.
It is very important to note that static defense investment is a sunk cost, which means you cannot undo those invested ressources and choose to invest them into mobile units which you can use to harass your opponent. Once those ressources are invested the game, the amount of action in the game will decrease.
But even aside from that issue, photo cannons vs units is just a boring mathcup since the outcome is decide before the battle begins (there is no micro involved). I believe that static defenses are primarily meant to deal with timing attacks, but right now they are overpowered vs mid/late game harass which needs to be nerfed.
Also I am surprised you think it is strategical element that you need to position your static defenses in the mineral line vs mech. Isn't that common sense? For instance I wouldn't praise someone for not closing his eyes when he is walking on a street with lots of traffics.
Every single player who has a functional brain will positioning his cannons/crawlers in an optimal way against mech (after just a bit of practice they will easily learn how to), and then nothing willl happen untill the terran needs to take his 4th/5th.
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Just got a new mail from Blizzard:
+ Show Spoiler +"Greetings XXX,
Having conducted a further review of your account and the situation surrounding the action taken, we have decided to remove the temporary suspension. Your account has been unlocked early and should now be available for use as normal.
Please note, it is our policy never to reveal details regarding account investigations, beyond the information given in the original notice mail, for privacy and security reasons.
Kind regards,
Game Master Draxxias
Blizzard Entertainment"
I do not know what caused them to change their mind.
XiA is almost done with all the technical fixes with the latest patch. Hopefully the patch can be uploaded in the evening, plus some new maps. I just need to decide what to do with the Vulture/Hellion/Spider mine units >.<
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I am looking at advantages and disadvantages with all ideas. Short summary of the ideas presented in the last few days:
1. Make Firebat able to shift between two weapons. Marauder attack & Firebat attack
2. Make Reaper unable to jump cliffs at normal. Must activate an ability that allows cliff jumping for X seconds.
3. Make Hellion/Hellbat transformation cost minerals, or require some other form of "cost"
4, Increase the Hellion/Hellbat transformation time.
5. Rework Hellion attack to make it require more micro, skill, decision making, positional play etc
6. Let Reapers be an early game unit only. It does not matter if it becomes redundant later in the game.
7. Give something more to the Dropship
8. Let Hellion have Hellbat mode and Spider mines. But transform costs minerals each time. Spider mines require armory.
9. Bring back Firebat and Vulture with Spider mine. Add Reaper as an extra unit. Maybe add something more to Firebat.
10. Add an attack for Reaper that makes it deal extra damage vs buildings.
11. Get the ranking system to work!
I hope I did not miss anyone's idea.
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EPT
