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On April 20 2013 07:29 Fen1kz wrote:
My propositions:
* lower gas income to 6 per trip, 8 is a way too high, making economics based on minerals only
* make terran vulture a bit more dmg or lower their cost to 75, currently it good only vs zerglings
also lower their size a bit,
* lower PF cooldown, 90 seconds too much for massive defencing, zerg and protoss have creep/warp mobility and static defence, while terran haven't
* buff tank attack speed while unsieged, its too low and no point to keep ur tanks unsieged.
* remove attack while moving with unsieged tanks
* nerf tank siege time, they're pretty good for their supply/cost, with unsieged mode buff they're
* bio now a way worse than mech, it has lower mobility (!) i dont know though what to do vs that
* increase vessel cost to 100-250 or 50-300, currently even if im meching - i still can build them in large amounts (also due 8 gas per trip)
and for protoss:
* nerf tempest health, 150/300 is too much for long range
* bring back carriers! :p
- 6 or 7, let's try, but maybe 9 or 10 mineral patches in mains (and at least 8 in nat) will help as well.
- We had stronger vultures and they slaughtered zergs if you went for one base 2 factory openings, so we changed them. Even hydras could not deal with them at all. Try some more 
- PF is fine, supplement like Dec said. A bunker + a seiged tank should do it.
- Sure
- They do not attack while move, they just have a new turret animation so they stay on target as they move, you still have to stop the tank for it to attack
- I am pretty bad at exploiting bad mech mobility. Try playing vs better zergs. Might chnage your opinion about mech mobility Vs bio mobility. Azelja is really good at being very mobile with terran bio.
- Vessel, I agree they should not be massable with mach unless you have crazy good eco, but let's wait unbitll the gas trip is reduced (if it will be).
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I did made some changes to squares of Starbow since the new BW'ish patching makes moving an army around on that map look like the line to enter a Justin Bieber-concert.
Tell me what you think. Also, prettiness has been added.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IQlJRGJ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wU8TAqY.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HoAhPQZ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fjaLLD3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SOAxgtG.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kV01S8e.jpg)
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Russian Federation216 Posts
as we tested in unit tester - tank really can attack while move, but if his unsieged damage was so heally nerfed for that change - bring it back.
again, in unit tester we tested 17 marines+3 medics vs 5 tempests (20 supply vs 20 supply)
tempests without micro won with like 3 tempest alive, its just wrong, i havent used micro and havent gone for unpassable territory, marines are not counter to tempests currently
as for mech/bio mobility - dunno, it feels strange, like really mech have more mobility, at least for me it was much easier to def my exps with mech, not bio (and attack you easier too)
well, this requires more games
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Hmmm. Well... it was not the intention that tanks were suppose to fire while moving (I think...) so that should be reworked. Nice tempest test, that needs to be fixed too.
Why are you saying that tanks are too slow and mech is more mobile at the same time? Would not faster tanks make mech even more mobile?
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as we tested in unit tester - tank really can attack while move, but if his unsieged damage was so heally nerfed for that change - bring it back.
Tank not attack while you move, but only if make "stop" or change trajectory (if before you went straight, turn left, right or back). You should try before to say these things.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
about tanks:
im sorry, but attack when changing trajectory looks like attack while move (
On April 20 2013 21:24 Xiphias wrote:
Why are you saying that tanks are too slow and mech is more mobile at the same time? Would not faster tanks make mech even more mobile?
unsieged tank attack speed is too slow
tanks a pretty fast, i'd rather to slow down their siege/unsiege speed a bit
and i like how in vanilla sc2 unsieged tank have more dps than sieged, this seems legit
about tempests:
just tested 3 tempest vs 4 devourer 12 supply, 900-600 vs 800-600
so heavy air vs specially antiair unit
1st: just a-move - 2 tempests alive with 50% hp
2nd: targeting 1 by 1 - 2 tempests alive with ~full hp
with micro: didnt tested, but its possible to not lose tempests i suppose ;D
devourer have same attack speed as tempest. lol :D
i think tempest needs to be less attack speed and lower hp - like 150-200 1 armor
about ghost:
i dont get purpose of ghost
1 ghost cannot kill zealot (even if u snipe :D)
whats ghost current purpose? deal 100 dmg and drop nukes? :D
about reaver:
make reaver bombs displayed please, like a carrier interceptors, its too hard to control them without that knowlegde(
about mines:
they wait before targeting too long, after i place unit near them - they unburrow, wait like 1-1.5 sec and only then start moving towards unit, and if u remove unit (to warp prism) - they wait again before burrow for like 1.5-2 sec, toooo long
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Mines were actually too fast and this was changed as well. Making them faster would be a reverting back.
I agree with the rest of your points.
I just discovered that you can blink between the main and third in Starbow Ridge. I've fixed that and will shortly send it to Kabel for update.
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again, in unit tester we tested 17 marines+3 medics vs 5 tempests (20 supply vs 20 supply)
tempests without micro won with like 3 tempest alive, its just wrong, i havent used micro and havent gone for unpassable territory, marines are not counter to tempests currently
Well, thats wrong. Tempests cost much more gas, but for what they are supposed to be specialized at they seem to be way too strong overall.
Do they still have splash?
unsieged tank attack speed is too slow
tanks a pretty fast, i'd rather to slow down their siege/unsiege speed a bit
and i like how in vanilla sc2 unsieged tank have more dps than sieged, this seems legit
Actually i dont think that unsieged tanks should be even close to decent at. They are supposed to be positional unit, powerful while siegied and crap otherwise. If they need anybuff unsieged then it should be only slightly.
about tempests:
just tested 3 tempest vs 4 devourer 12 supply, 900-600 vs 800-600
so heavy air vs specially antiair unit
1st: just a-move - 2 tempests alive with 50% hp
2nd: targeting 1 by 1 - 2 tempests alive with ~full hp
with micro: didnt tested, but its possible to not lose tempests i suppose ;D
devourer have same attack speed as tempest. lol :D
i think tempest needs to be less attack speed and lower hp - like 150-200 1 armor
Devoruers in starbow are more of aoe-antilight unit with some support/tanking potential. Scourges are supposed to be excelent counter to things like tempests. But well... From what you said tempests still seem to kill devourers too easly.
about ghost:
i dont get purpose of ghost
1 ghost cannot kill zealot (even if u snipe :D)
whats ghost current purpose? deal 100 dmg and drop nukes? :D
Im not sure of whats role of current ghost but from what i have seen snipes seemed to be quite effective and due to low cost of that unit its much easier and cheaper to sneak them and sac them for some good nukes. But well, they could use some tiny bit more utility.
about mines:
they wait before targeting too long, after i place unit near them - they unburrow, wait like 1-1.5 sec and only then start moving towards unit, and if u remove unit (to warp prism) - they wait again before burrow for like 1.5-2 sec, toooo long
Last time i played something was wrong with mines. They seemed to be untargetable after unburrowing. Before switching to HoTS they were almost finished i think, and now they seem to not work same way.
Economy:
I do like that gas is cheaper. It makes tech play more viable (especially for zerg). What seems to be real problem is mid/lategame income when people start to have so much of that they can consantly pump gas only units (20 vessels etc).
Maybe we can solve it same way as in BW? After lets say ~2k gas harvested from one gayser it loses half of its efficency.
It will further promote faster expanding without limiting game play.
Bio vs Mech
Maybe we all have bad aproach to that topic.Maybe bio shoulnt be viable alone in all MUs (sc2 style), but should be more of earlygame option with mid/late supporting role.
Maybe changing upgrades costs and BT (especially of +2 and +3) and giving them more options to directly support mech or destroying units which are effective vs mech could be good solution?
Firebat
Why not make firebats deal flat damage? 16 flat damage with bit longer but thinner aoe. More damage vs non-light damage wont make it op (after all they are almost melee), but maybe give them some aditional usses.
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On April 21 2013 01:18 Danko__ wrote:Show nested quote +unsieged tank attack speed is too slow
tanks a pretty fast, i'd rather to slow down their siege/unsiege speed a bit
and i like how in vanilla sc2 unsieged tank have more dps than sieged, this seems legit Actually i dont think that unsieged tanks should be even close to decent at. They are supposed to be positional unit, powerful while siegied and crap otherwise. If they need anybuff unsieged then it should be only slightly.
I don't think unsieged tanks should be COMPLETELY useless. There should be situations where they perform better than Siege Mode that gives players incentive to use them differently. With no Marauders, they are Terrans primary anti-armored unit and should reflect that regardless of Siege Tech or not.
Economy:
I do like that gas is cheaper. It makes tech play more viable (especially for zerg). What seems to be real problem is mid/lategame income when people start to have so much of that they can consantly pump gas only units (20 vessels etc).
Maybe we can solve it same way as in BW? After lets say ~2k gas harvested from one gayser it loses half of its efficency.
It will further promote faster expanding without limiting game play.
I don't know, I mean I never really noticed the issue until the other day when it was pointed out but now that people have started discussing lowering the gas income I have to agree with them. I don't think I've ever been gas starved in Starbow, even when my econ isn't doing so well.
Bio vs Mech
Maybe we all have bad aproach to that topic.Maybe bio shoulnt be viable alone in all MUs (sc2 style), but should be more of earlygame option with mid/late supporting role.
I agree absolutely, 100%. Pure bio should never be viable as a mid-lategame strat, I don't know why people seem to think that's the goal or even a good idea.
Firebat
Why not make firebats deal flat damage? 16 flat damage with bit longer but thinner aoe. More damage vs non-light damage wont make it op (after all they are almost melee), but maybe give them some aditional usses.
Longer thinner AoE ruins the Firebats role. It's supposed to tank other melee units and punish them at close range, not function like a weaker, mobile Lurker (I know you don't mean that extreme of a change but still, I think it's unnecessary).
The flat damage rather than anti-light is questionable. I guess it couldn't hurt to try but Firebats effectively hurting armored units would feel odd.
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I don't think unsieged tanks should be COMPLETELY useless. There should be situations where they perform better than Siege Mode that gives players incentive to use them differently. With no Marauders, they are Terrans primary anti-armored unit and should reflect that regardless of Siege Tech or not.
I have nothing against buffing their dmg vs armored. 20dmg +15vs armored instead of 20+10 maybe could make difference. We can try this way.
I don't know, I mean I never really noticed the issue until the other day when it was pointed out but now that people have started discussing lowering the gas income I have to agree with them. I don't think I've ever been gas starved in Starbow, even when my econ isn't doing so well.
Instead of lowering gas income i would prefer to first try adding 1 mineral patch to mains and make gaysers half-depletable. We already went trough one change like this and zerg teching really suffered from that. That was painful at least for me as i really like to play aggressive tech zerg.
Longer thinner AoE ruins the Firebats role. It's supposed to tank other melee units and punish them at close range, not function like a weaker, mobile Lurker (I know you don't mean that extreme of a change but still, I think it's unnecessary).
The flat damage rather than anti-light is questionable. I guess it couldn't hurt to try but Firebats effectively hurting armored units would feel odd.
Longer, thinner, more like BW firebat than sc2 campaign one. Linear splash is more punishing to amove as units are more likely to form line as they are moving uncontrolled. Also linear splash allows opponent to try surrounding firebat. Im not talking about lurker range splash, but 2 range extending up to 3.
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Streaming
Twitch.tv/KanBan85
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Two things:
1. Zerg units no longer move while burrwed  Is this intentional or accident?
2. Reapers work in mid-late game (so does vulture dropping ) Behold: http://drop.sc/325884
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Announcement
It is always nice to come home from a long night of work to find my TL-mailbox filled with PMs, and this thread filled with a nice discussion about the current state of the game. I am glad that Starbow is starting to become played again. (And hopefully enjoyed ^^ )
The last month, Starbow has gone through turbulent times. Everything in the Starbow-file had to be rebuilt from scratch by me and XiA when HoTS came out, since the old WoL-file got really messed up. Apart from that, I have tried some new ideas that have not worked very well.
But at the moment, it feels like Starbow is "on the right way" again. Though, there are still a lot of work to do in the editor, and some major decisions regarding balance/design must be taken.
I will not be able to devote much more time to make patches.
But why? Oh, why?
>>> + Show Spoiler +
As I stated a few months ago, I would try to go on for as long as possible and make new patches with HoTS. But the patch work is too time and thought consuming. It collides with other more important stuff in my life:
- University studies
- Evening/night work
- Relationships
I can not compromise on this anymore. I simply do not have enough free time available to playtest Starbow as much as I need, or make good patches for it. Soon, when exams are coming up, I will have even less time. And it will only get worse. So I have decided to "step down" from Starbow.
What will happen with Starbow?
>>> + Show Spoiler +Someone else can take my place and become the uploader and "main developer" or whatever it shall be called. I give that person totally free hands to do whatever he, she, it, or they decides to do with Starbow. Maybe the easiest thing would be if the process can continue as it is:
1) People in this thread can continue to come with suggestions, feedback, criticism, thoughts, playtesting, replays, etc
2) The uploader evaluates the different suggestions, decides on what changes would be best for the game, and then either makes the changes in the editor himself, OR if it is too hard, asks someone more skilled to make it. Then publishes the next patch.
Exactly what shall the new "uploader/main developer" do?
>>> + Show Spoiler + This is basically what I do:
- Publish the MOD-file and the maps on EU (maybe also on NA, KR etc)
- Publish and develop new patches.
- Take the final decisions regarding balance, design etc for the new patches. (Ofc in discussion with others in the thread)
- Work on Starbow in the editor.
Personally I am quite bad at the editor. I ask XiA and December when I need help with more advanced stuff, and they often make it for me, or describes in detail how to make it. Both of them are great and really helpful!
I can also provide some help with the basics, if needed.
Maybe all of the above must not be done by one person. It can be splitted between a few of you?
>>> Additional thoughts: <<<
+ Show Spoiler +I do not think that much will be changed due to my "resign". I know that many of you have better game understanding and judgement about balance/design than I do. We are many people involved in Starbow and I am sure we can help each other to continue to make the game better and more fun. Maybe some kind of "official Starbow-team" can be created, in case no one wants to work "alone" ?
I just can't take the responsibility of being the "spider in the web" anymore. However, I will still be around. Maybe play sometimes. Maybe write posts in the thread. Maybe change the opening post if necessary. I will just become more passively involved.
If no one wanna continue the work, well.. then I guess it will be frozen at this state for a while or forever. : /
If anyone wanna be the new "main developer" or publisher of Starbow, just PM me, or write here in the thread, so I can send you all the Starbow content: All 10-20 Starbow maps, the Starbow MOD-file. my "to-do" list over known bugs/errors etc..
If anyone has any other ideas how to solve the development of Starbow, share it here in the thread.
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On April 21 2013 22:06 Kabel wrote:Announcement
It is always nice to come home from a long night of work to find my TL-mailbox filled with PMs, and this thread filled with a nice discussion about the current state of the game. I am glad that Starbow is starting to become played again. (And hopefully enjoyed ^^ ) The last month, Starbow has gone through turbulent times. Everything in the Starbow-file had to be rebuilt from scratch by me and XiA when HoTS came out, since the old WoL-file got really messed up. Apart from that, I have tried some new ideas that have not worked very well. But at the moment, it feels like Starbow is "on the right way" again. Though, there are still a lot of work to do in the editor, and some major decisions regarding balance/design must be taken. I will not be able to devote much more time to make patches. But why? Oh, why?>>> + Show Spoiler +
As I stated a few months ago, I would try to go on for as long as possible and make new patches with HoTS. But the patch work is too time and thought consuming. It collides with other more important stuff in my life:
- University studies
- Evening/night work
- Relationships
I can not compromise on this anymore. I simply do not have enough free time available to playtest Starbow as much as I need, or make good patches for it. Soon, when exams are coming up, I will have even less time. And it will only get worse. So I have decided to "step down" from Starbow.
<<< What will happen with Starbow?
>>> + Show Spoiler +Someone else can take my place and become the uploader and "main developer" or whatever it shall be called. I give that person totally free hands to do whatever he, she, it, or they decides to do with Starbow. Maybe the easiest thing would be if the process can continue as it is:
1) People in this thread can continue to come with suggestions, feedback, criticism, thoughts, playtesting, replays, etc
2) The uploader evaluates the different suggestions, decides on what changes would be best for the game, and then either makes the changes in the editor himself, OR if it is too hard, asks someone more skilled to make it. Then publishes the next patch. <<< Exactly what shall the new "uploader/main developer" do?>>> + Show Spoiler + This is basically what I do:
- Publish the MOD-file and the maps on EU (maybe also on NA, KR etc)
- Publish and develop new patches.
- Have interest to take the final decisions regarding balance, design etc for the new patches. (Ofc in discussion with others in the thread)
- Work on Starbow in the editor.
Personally I am quite bad at the editor. I ask XiA and December when I need help with more advanced stuff, and they often make it for me, or describes in detail how to make it. Both of them are great and really helpful!
I can also provide some help with the basics, if needed.
Maybe all of the above must not be done by one person. It can be splitted between a few of you? <<< >>> Additional thoughts: <<< + Show Spoiler +I do not think that much will be changed due to my "resign". I know that many of you have better game understanding and judgement about balance/design than I do. We are many people involved in Starbow and I am sure we can help each other to continue to make the game better and more fun. Maybe some kind of "Starbow-team" can be created, in case no one wants to work "alone" ?
I just can't take the responsibility of being the center piece anymore. However, I will still be around. Maybe play sometimes. Maybe write posts in the thread. Maybe change the opening post if necessary. I will just become more passively involved.
If no one wanna continue the work, well.. then I guess it will be frozen at this state for a while or forever. : /
If anyone wanna be the new "main developer" or publisher of Starbow, just PM me, or write here in the thread, so I can send you all the Starbow content: All 10-20 Starbow maps, the Starbow MOD-file. my "to-do" list over known bugs/errors etc..
If anyone has any other ideas how to solve the development of Starbow, share it here in the thread.
Would be really cool if a Starbow Team could be created. 2-3 main map editors, 1 person dedicated to publishing maps, 4-5 dedicated map testers, 1 youtube/graphic art person...
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@Kabel. Sad to see you have less time for this but I agree, This should / will not be the end of Starbow. Decemberscalm, are you up for it!? I will gladly keep on helping with playtesting, casting, mapmaking, tournaments and publisity (I need a better job at the last one).
I seriously think December can take over if he wants since he has both a good understanding on what Starbow should "feel" like (imo) and knows the editor quite well.
@JohnnyZerg Did we play a TvT, I don't remember?
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Hey kabel , i followed this project since the first phases , and i'd like to add somethjng to it. Im a mapmaker so i can create some starbow maps. send me everything , ill try do add some custom models made for starbiw. Ty .
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@Archerofaiur
It kinda is like a team already:
- I am the publisher.
- I take the "final" decisions for the patches. (Often I pick what I think is the best suggestion from this thread)
- I, XiA and sometimes December do the actual work in the map editor.
- Xiphias, Johnny, Fen1kz, Dec, SmileZerg and a few others are playtesters at the moment.
- Xiphias/Dec do the youtube content/organize tournaments/stream games
- A lot of people analyzes the game, write suggestions/ideas/feedback here in the thread
I think it is really awesome that a spontaneous community has been built around this. Everyone is free to participate in any way he/she wishes. I just need one or more people to take a lot of work from my shoulders
@Xiphias
I agree! This should not be the end of Starbow. I am just one part of it and I am sure many others here will be able to continue to make the game better, as long as you all find it joyful and interesting to do so.
You all write a lot of good ideas for balance via PMs and in this thread. My current list for the next patch is really long, since there is so much that must be done. And I will not be able to squeeze in that many hours at the editor during the next week. Which means that the next patch will be greatly delayed... And then the patch after that will be even more delayed... and I must also get time to playtest... It just does not feel very sustainable. It is as if I make a game I barely have time to play or make :p
That is why I think it is better that someone who is more actively playing and thinking about Starbow, than I have time to do, takes over the development. Someone who can be the "spider in the web" and makes sure that the development of the game makes progress, in any pace you like.
Glad to count on you Xiphias. Maybe December would be interested? Hider? Danko? JohnnyZerg? SmileZerg? XiA?
Any others who would like to help in any way?
@IeZaeL
Glad to hear you offer your help. But do you mean that you will create models for Starbow? Or you create melee maps to play Starbow on? Or you wanna be the publisher/developer?
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I can do almost everything on the editor . Mainly ill do melee maps and put in some models from the italian sc1 remake ( 1000x times better than english version xd ). Thank you anyway for developing this mod.
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EPT
