EPTOn April 23 2013 05:04 Xiphias wrote:
@ HideR Btw, vessels are 3 supply atm... Things I learn....
@ HideR Btw, vessels are 3 supply atm... Things I learn....
then make them 4 supply...
[A] Starbow - Page 253
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
then make them 4 supply... | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
Not think is necessary. Reaper make a good job if correctly used. if make reaper, terran has less gas for vessel, but reaper is more cost efficient. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On April 23 2013 06:47 JohnnyZerg wrote: Not think is necessary. Reaper make a good job if correctly used. if make reaper, terran has less gas for vessel, but reaper is more cost efficient. If mass vessels is OP late game, but only late game then a supply increase will fix that. I don't understand what you are referring to? The mass reaper thing is another seperate issue, which eventually will ruin the game as 20 reapers will be way too efficient late game. Reapers could get away with 1 supply in wol/Hots cus they have little utility late game. In fact the only reason Thorzain used them in tvp was due to supply effiency in the late game. If they were 2 supply in WOL he wouldn't have used them. But now when they have late game utility, their supply needs be increased. EDIT: 4 supply vessels is kinda the easy solution. Another solution is to redesign irradiate so that it is alot more difficult to use 10 vessels optimally than 1-3 vessels. I previously suggested to increase irradiates DPS but make them not kill a unit (work like plague). So you will have to combine irradiate and 1-2 marines for instance (or a hellion) to kill a lurker. | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Raven_(Heart_of_the_Swarm) We can mix both abilities in this way: Ability is currently hots sekeer missile: When the missile explodes, it not make damage but active radiation effects at only target.In this way, opponent can make escape unit, to disable seeker missile. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On April 23 2013 07:57 JohnnyZerg wrote: @Irradiation/ hots seeker missile http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Raven_(Heart_of_the_Swarm) We can mix both abilities in this way: Ability is currently hots sekeer missile: When the missile explodes, it not make damage but active radiation effects at only target.In this way, opponent can make escape unit, to disable seeker missile. Problemet with seeker missle is that its a big battle only ability. Irradiate works much better IMO as you can run around on the map and irradiate stuff which encourages small skirmishes. So irradiate should not be an ability that you can completely avoid. It just needs to be an ability which takes more skill to use 10 times than 3 times. | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
On April 23 2013 07:57 JohnnyZerg wrote: @Irradiation/ hots seeker missile http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Raven_(Heart_of_the_Swarm) We can mix both abilities in this way: Ability is currently hots sekeer missile: When the missile explodes, it not make damage but active radiation effects at only target.In this way, opponent can make escape unit, to disable seeker missile. I have published an unit test map "Starbow - Seeker/irradiation" on Arcade game. Thoughts? On April 23 2013 08:08 Hider wrote: Problemet with seeker missle is that its a big battle only ability. Irradiate works much better IMO as you can run around on the map and irradiate stuff which encourages small skirmishes. So irradiate should not be an ability that you can completely avoid. It just needs to be an ability which takes more skill to use 10 times than 3 times. Yeah, in this way, terran to be sure to hit, must try to launch the missile as close as possible at target, so that the victim may not be able to escape, but if vessel get too close to, could die from enemy units! Is a matter of skill. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
This is going to be the giant post where I talk about where me and Xiphias think Starbow should currently head. The main focus is currently bug testing, fixing things left absent during the transition from WoL to HOTS, and cleaning things up. There is quite a big list of changes, mainly small little things that have dissapeared in the transition. I will post a change log of those fixes when I actually patch. As for the actual game changers, these need to be discussed and I have been reading everything people have been posting while taking feedback from Xiphias experience in games. Our first patch is going to take a more conservative approach to the mod. Starbow felt so close to being fleshed out during release, I want the mod to be back there before we start changing things at random for the sheer fun of it. Here are some of the major topics: Economy As Danko said, the current gas structure plays very nicely with Z and P right now who are extremely gas dependent. Xiphias and I think changing this beast should wait until later. If there are real problems with overabundance of units, we can change those directly by changing their gas cost. Science Vessel In this case we could try 100/250 science vessels. This should absoluetly curb the abrosbant amount of science vessels. Bio is unaffected by this, already having tons of spare gas. Mech has to decide if he wants to spend that extra gas on more units or not. Z can also plague flocks of sci vessels and then send a single mutalisk to cut them down. Prevention is usually the best step. This leads me to another point. Science vessels are incredibly easy to keep alive. It doesn't matter if you are risky with your science vessels because they move on a dime. My suggestion is that I add slight acceleration to the science vessel before it starts moving full speed. This will make positioning the science vessel more important, as well as keeping guards by it. A small change, but it could be beneficial. This brings me to the sci vessels spell lineup. I think it is in the mods best interest to give nerve jammer a benign attack able unit as part of the spell like old school starbow. It costs actions to actually kill it, but it is better than the impossibility of attacking a choke and a nerve jammer. Xiphias thinks that an increase in cost for the spelt is in order due to the power of it. I'm inclined to agree. Right now it only costs a mere 75 energy. Originally it was 125. I think with the gas cost nerf to science vessels, we could set it to 100. The science vessel will lose its emp, given to the ghost. Right now the science vessel is the be all, end all of terran casters. Ghost sees zero use. Science vessel will obviously be prominent in zvt. Scourge make for amazing counterplay in that matchup. Templar have better counterplay vs ghosts with feedback and not balling. Ghost This unit isn't very fleshed out. Given emp it will actually see some use besides nukes every now and then. We can give it lockdown for now. Any ideas on ghost spells? Utility or support spells are recommended. Terran army is less reliant on spells than Protoss. As before, emp vs templar has a lot more interesting counter play than science vessel versus protoss. Overseer After much debate, it seems like the ideal solution is for the overseer to gain its speed via lair tech. In Brood War ovie speed was an investment you had to make to get agressive vs vultures with spider mines and early dt tech. In Starbow however, overlords don't detect. The investment you make is the overseer. Giving the overseer its HOTS speed via lair seems like an investment enough to allow you to at least sweep mines. The default overseer at hatch tech will move slightly faster than an overlord. A possible play could be morphing a scouting overlord near your opponents base at hatch tech for early aggression. Zerg Air Lineup This requires more ZvZ and ZvP observation and experimentation before we arrive at its conclusion. Currently the devourer isn't too shabby vs capital ships, and easily beats corsairs and mutalisks. This is ok with it being at hive tech. The scourge however has the potential of utterly breaking corsair play if too powerful against mutalisks. I know the answer to zvz muta battles seems like it could lie in a corsair/valkyrie sort of devourer, or in a scourge that counters mutalisks. This of course would break other matchups. In addition to that, ZvZ ground game isn't necessarily more interesting. Hydralisks can kill just about everything on the ground with ease (the range lets them take minimal casulties vs lurker shots). It would feel like BW goon vs goon except it is easier to micro and the reaver doesn't exist. For the moment we are satisfied with only changing the guardian. Zerg has the capability of morphing 10 guardians at a time which is utterly unlike protoss or terran. This is why they don't have any real sort of capital ships. Having a broodlord that simply turns units into broodlings when they die is bassically just an upgraded guardian. What is the end effect? Slightly higher damage, but as a side effect you've got tons of little units interfering. This is what Kabel and Xiphias dislike. In order to at least give the guardian something new, I'm proposing a small splash damage, just to make it look like it has some sort of oomph to it. I'm not sure it is really required, they already are and look pretty powerful. Especially compared to broodlords (despite actually being less powerful). The role of this unit hasn't really changed from BW to HOTS. A slow moving, vulnerable, but powerful flying siege unit. For now I think it will fit this role perfectly fine, it doesn't seem like a huge change is required. So the ideal solution for this unit right now is to nerf its speed a bit, (during HOTS transition its speed is way overboard), and make sure it fits this role properly. Now on to something controversial ^^ Tempest VS Carrier Some of you say they fit different roles. I'm not sure I entirely understand how. The carrier is basically a capital siege weapon. The way it attacks is quite unique. You can stave it off for the moment by killing its interceptors (rendering marines a soft counter to them). It can have some very interesting interaction ground based anti air (namely carrier vs goliath micro). The tempest however would fit the role of capital siege weapon. The way it does this however, is much less interesting. If you want to see the tempest in Starbow, think of how it could be more interesting than the carrier because right now it simply isn't. edit: or if you can think of separate roles for the units without heavy overlap, but that requires there being a niche for it to fill. Protoss Tools For Protoss, the idea is to leave the immortal behind for the meantime, in addition to the vacant spot in the robotics facility. Let us finish Starbow to its proper form before we start experimenting with crazy new roles. As far as Xiphias and I know, Protoss has all the tools they need. Let us play more and more games and see, first of all, if there is a need for more units in the Protoss arsenal. If Protoss feels too boring and the like, then we will see about introducing brand new concepts and ideas for it. Zergling Burrowed Movement After much discussion, we think that zerglings will have an upgrade at lair tech (after burrow research is complete) that will allow them move while burrowed. This will make it more readily apparent that players can actually move their burrowed zerglings. The ill side effect of this ability is seeing new players get killed by not knowing they should keep their supply depot up. There is much to learn in a game of Starbow however, going bio vs Protoss can get you killed equally as well. Starcraft is about learning ^^. Nydus Canal I don't think we're too sure on this one. If you have it only able to be used on creep it sorts more as a nydus canal. Zerg has creep spread, and faster units, they don't really require a nydus canal. In addition, overlord creep spread will make backdoor nydus literally impossible vs good players. Against worse players this unit is game breaking and not fun. Against competent players it is utterly useless. It just feels so gimmicky and pointless. I'd absolutely love to see more thoughts on this one, but I think Starbow would be better off without either version of the nydus canal. Doom drops are simply more exciting, takes more preparation, and your opponent can punish you or at least scout you for attempting to break his entire production line. Thank you everyone for reading! I hope to have the patch finished in the upcoming few days. As a side note, I am actually moving this weekend to a new apartment so I might randomly be delayed. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Interesting idea .You simply can't whiff with irradiate, it is a very all or nothing spell. However, its use vs mutalisks would be greatly diminished. That is one of its primary functions. | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
Burrow movement for zerglings - Why not just give it to all zerg units? (yes, even banelings, but maybe not lurkers) You said it yourself, it's hardly ever used. I agree with what smilezerg said, Burrow research at Hatchery, Burrow Movement at Lair. And perhaps we can also get Burrowed Regeneration at Hive tech. All of these for every zerg ground unit, ofc. They won't be used as much, no, but it'll be an interesting choice, allowing players to develop distinct styles. To balance it, we can just give every unit different burrow speeds. Ghost - I propose we make nukes even cheaper. Allow a single Academy to hold multiple nukes, lower their cost to 50/50, and lower the call down time from 20 seconds to 12 seconds. Don't even change the damage numbers yet, unless it's clearly OP. To balance nukes they have to be used first, and right now almost no one is using them. Giving them EMP is okay, but we have to make sure all their spells are worth using. Economy - I like all the changes Xiphias proposed. Scourge - What SmileZerg said: Something we might think about considering, though, is making Scourge a Zergling morph instead of requiring Spire, to break symmetry in ZvZ so you aren't forced to tech Spire if your opponent does. It could be a Lair tech research at the Baneling Nest, sort of like the BW Lurker Aspect. Once again, this could create more interesting and unique play styles. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
We decided not to change the economy in the next patch but rather focus on individual unit cost, hence the vessel change. You are right about the vessel suffreing in mid-game but not in late-game by this change but only if you go bio. I think (and hope) that a meching player will have to make this more of a choice towards the lategame as well since mech is more gas intensive. Burrow movement is actually pretty strong if you just remember to use it. Just ask me and Danko ;Making one unit be spezilised in it might actually make it see more uses ("Oh! An upgrade for zergling movement!"). Baneling movement would just be completely OP, you rarely need to burrow-move hydralisk and ultras have a new ability now, so that pretty much leaves us with the zergling anyways.I also like the idea of better and / or cheaper nukes. I have not talked to dec about this yet, and it probably will not ocme in the next patch, but we will keep it back in mind for the future. REMEMBER: We have a lot of ideas and input that will not come in the next patch because we feel that we first need to make sure all the basic stuff works 100%, THEN we can start to add new stuff. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Seems like it is really hard for Terran to burn their gas. Especially for a bio player. This is a two fold aspect. One problem is that Terran can have swarms of sci vessels while maintaining a big mech army. The second aspect to this problem is that Terran has the least reliance on gas, so that it is practically a non-issue, especially as a bio player. This will force Terran to choose what tech units they have in their composition, even when in a 150/200 supply situation. A supply change would not do that. It is a soft attempt at helping the gas economy of starbow while maintaining Z and P's ability to play high tech. @Zergling burrowed movement Zergling having the upgraded for burrowed movement lets us do multiple things. Draws attention to it (people don't even remember they can do it, or don't know its there). It lets us specialize the zergling. The zergling could move at standard ling speed when burrowed mean the ability could be used to greater effect. Of course this is counterbalanced by the fact that the ling with speed gets to their target extremely quickly already. @Nukes Agreeing with Xiphias here. The goal right now is to get a very stable, hopefully balanced state for the mod. Then we can go crazy ^^. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On April 23 2013 14:39 decemberscalm wrote: @economy Seems like it is really hard for Terran to burn their gas. Especially for a bio player. This is a two fold aspect. One problem is that Terran can have swarms of sci vessels while maintaining a big mech army. The second aspect to this problem is that Terran has the least reliance on gas, so that it is practically a non-issue, especially as a bio player. This will force Terran to choose what tech units they have in their composition, even when in a 150/200 supply situation. A supply change would not do that. It is a soft attempt at helping the gas economy of starbow while maintaining Z and P's ability to play high tech. @Zergling burrowed movement Zergling having the upgraded for burrowed movement lets us do multiple things. Draws attention to it (people don't even remember they can do it, or don't know its there). It lets us specialize the zergling. The zergling could move at standard ling speed when burrowed mean the ability could be used to greater effect. Of course this is counterbalanced by the fact that the ling with speed gets to their target extremely quickly already. @Nukes Agreeing with Xiphias here. The goal right now is to get a very stable, hopefully balanced state for the mod. Then we can go crazy ^^. Whats bad about allowing many gas units at the same time to be produced? Having both reaper + medis + SV's in your composition is really difficult to manage, and I believe those units are a great way of rewarding skills. What is the logic behind not rewarding the best players who are able to manage these different kind of units at the same time? In which way will the game become better if you only are capable of using 1-2 of those units at the same time? The only problem is that it is too efficient ot have 20 reapers compared to 10 reapres, and it is too easy to use 10-15 SV's efficiently compared to 2-5 SV's. Actually it is not correct that bio players have a tough time spending their gas as medis cost a lot of gas. With slightly higher gas count of science vessels people will have fewer science vessels in the mid game, but late game they will have roughly a similar amount (instead of 11, maybe 9-10 with 250 gas). Again, I think your fixing the wrong problem. IMO the problem isn't excesivve gas, but the fact that gas-dumping units are too easy too use in mass. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Adding a slight acceleration to SV will make them more difficult to use in mass (not much though) since moving them in a "ball" will now make them easier to plauge and fungal, kinda like in BW where clumps of SV's where plauged all the time. This might very well not solve this and we are quite comfertable with trying out something else if it does not, but we are going to try this first. We'll keep a close eye on it after the next aptch to see how it evolves. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On April 23 2013 18:28 Xiphias wrote: Do you really run out of gas from producing reapers / medics and SV when playing bio if you take all your gaysers and have 3 in each? Is it not a lack of minerals that is the problem? We can do some playtesting, but I am not seing this atm. Adding a slight acceleration to SV will make them more difficult to use in mass (not much though) since moving them in a "ball" will now make them easier to plauge and fungal, kinda like in BW where clumps of SV's where plauged all the time. This might very well not solve this and we are quite comfertable with trying out something else if it does not, but we are going to try this first. We'll keep a close eye on it after the next aptch to see how it evolves. I was even on gas/mins going bio + tank + SV throughout most of the game Adding a slight acceleration to SV will make them more difficult to use in mass (not much though) since moving them in a "ball" will now make them easier to plauge and fungal, kinda like in BW where clumps of SV's where plauged all the time. Maybe, but I don't think the effect of this will be very signifcant. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On April 23 2013 19:07 Xiphias wrote: Have you played after the latest patch where you get 8 minerals / gas per trip instead of 7? ....That is a relative decrease of gas income......................... | ||
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isaachukfan
Canada785 Posts
Anyhow, more playtesting is needed. | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
On April 23 2013 09:32 decemberscalm wrote: @JohnnyZerg Interesting idea .You simply can't whiff with irradiate, it is a very all or nothing spell. However, its use vs mutalisks would be greatly diminished. That is one of its primary functions. Remember that vikings is an excellent unit anti Mutas if supported by marines or goliath. @Tempest Give it a try before you throw in the toilet this unit. I have recommended to increase damage but also the charging time of the weapon. Try not harmful. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On April 23 2013 19:58 isaachukfan wrote: I don't think that EMP should be removed from SV in conjunction with the gas increase, in the lategame now (vs protoss), Terran will need SV AND Ghosts, which will be very difficult with this gas cost increase. Perhaps we should look at giving a new spell to the ghost, or increase the power of Nuke to bw levels. One of the triumvirate (xia, december and kabel) i forget who specifically, said they would be open to that suggestion. Anyhow, more playtesting is needed. Ghost is 100 gas? Also mech players have plenty of gas and you don't even need SV at all vs protoss anymore. But besides, I don't like that change at all. Its one of these changes which IMO doesn't really accomplish anything besides making one unit more usefull. I think there should be two type of changes; 1) Design changes which makes the game more entertaining 2) Balance changes Using a ghost instead of a SV doesn't really make the game more entertaining, just different. Instead, I think one should try to make ghosts more viable in a different way. What about trying stimable ghosts? | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
@HideR, yeah that's true... hmmm.... We'll talk this more over. In the meantime: Please try to play as much TvZ as possible going both bio and mech and keep an eye on your gas count so we are sure to actually adress a problem and not just make up problems! Edit: I posted about the same time HideR so I was talking about the overall decrease in gas. We'll discuss the Vessel / Ghost changes further. What we are trying to do is to make sure terran has two spell casters with well defined spells that both have their unique advantages and disadvantages. Atm it is all about the vessel and not the ghost. We were trying to go for: Vessel Vs Zerg, Ghost Vs protoss and both in morror (jammer and lockdown both work vs sieged lines). Now that the medic is stimable as well, I feel we need something different for the ghost. My take on the ghost is that it should be a unit that it is good to have few of and pointless to have many of. It is not really a combat unit, more of a utility unit. That's why I like Nuke That being said, if there are any changes to terran spellcaster this patch, they will be small. Greater changes can come in upcomming patches so keep the ideas comming @ isaachukfan Why would terrans need SV vs Toss if EMP was moved to Ghost? Toss is quite mobil to work around jammer (I guess it can protect your tanks from zealots...) and irratiate is almost useless vs toss.... EMP and lockdown should work much better in that match - up. | ||
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