EPT[A] Starbow - Page 252
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Nice! I recognize you from sc2mapster.com. Would you mind to help create spells and abilities that are difficult to create? (In case someone encounter a problem with a Starbow spell, they can contact you and if you have time you can try to fix it?) @Xiphias That is exactly why we need someone who can take that decision! Or rather, of course we can take decisions together, but someone must realize it in the editor and determine the exact stats. Due to my limited playtesting, I did not even know that was a problem! That is why it is better if someone with a better "contact" with the game, compared to me, becomes the publisher/developer | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
JohnnyZerg(T) Azelja(T) Bio vs Mech http://drop.sc/326116 Winner/thought: + Show Spoiler + Azelja win. I made several errors that I should not commit: I created the first vessel too late, and I have not continued to continuous production of these. We must do more vessel to hold off the tank using nerve jammer ability. I used really bad matrix ability. This shield must be used on reapers, so that they can launch the snapshots mines on tanks. However, we must continue to use 1 factory with reactor to create and use them to make vultures drop (which I did in the whole game). If you do not commit these mistakes, bio can play vs mech. Reapers are very good in mid/late game, but currently a reaper can lunch only one snapshots mines because die before. I propose a make a nerf to jump and reduce cooldown of snapshots mines from 60 to 30. @Xiphias + Show Spoiler + @JohnnyZerg Did we play a TvT, I don't remember? I made too many mistake ^^ On April 22 2013 02:41 SmileZerg wrote: If someone else is to take over as "Lead Developer" I would throw in my vote and support for December. He's been casting and contributing to the project for as long as I can remember and almost always tends to have good ideas, not to mention knowing his way around the editor. Yeah, December is the best person to continue Starbow. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
I wouldn't feel comfortable being the lead developer. Most people play on EU which makes it difficult for me to play and obs.That means I wouldn't have as much time talking to everyone about games, I'd be more reliant on replays. For that reason I couldn't accept being lead developer. However, I'd be okay working with Xiphias. We are constantly on skype talking about maps, balance, design, you name it. I'd be perfectly to upload and edit while giving Xiphias insight, as Xiphias and I would be talking on the forum about proposed changes and solutions before implementing any. Of course the changes would be to fix up the last of Starbow. Just flesh it out a tiny bit more, thats all it needs. Looking at you ghost spell lineup. The reason I'd like to see Xiphias take on a lead is because he is utterly passionate about Starbow. Side note: Xia has done most of the grunt work for editing, I'd really like to know his opinion on the matter. Same for veterans like Danko before we do any solid hierarchy change. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
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Inimic
Canada153 Posts
IMO, from what I've seen, Kabel's having a lot of control so far has been instrumental in the quality of this mod so far. Is it possible for Kabel to work primarily on the design, and for somebody to take over the publishing and debugging/balance patches? In a real game design team this would be a more reasonable breakdown. Its like the concept guy also has to be the programmer and maintenance guy otherwise. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
I can't offer much from myself as I have very limited amount of time I can devote to starbow, so I will just Keep playing, reporting bugs,complaining and suggesting values changes from time to time | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I am happy to announce that Xiphias & Decemberscalm will take my place as lead developers for Starbow, for as long as they find it enjoyable! This means that they will take the final decisions regarding balance/design, create new patches, keep the map pool updated, publish new patches, post patch notes here in the thread etc. Simply put, they will do everything I used to do. The work process for Starbow will remain as it is: 1. Everyone can still bring feedback, thoughts, report bugs, argue for changes, give proposals etc, as usual in this thread, or by sending PMs to Xiphias. 2. Xiphias and December chooses the solutions/ideas they think will be best for the game and the balance. 3. They create the next patch or patches in the editor. 4. One of them will be the uploader and make sure that all maps are updated. 5. They write patch notes here in the thread. 6. All of you come online and play Starbow ^^ Personally I will only do step 1 and 6 now - write my thoughts and proposals, maybe playtest when I get time. But I will not take any final decisions, make any changes in the editor or anything else. I simply do not have enough free time to do all work that is required. It is as if I make a MOD I do not have time to play or make :p I must focus on some other stuff in life atm. So I am very pleased with becoming more passively involved in the development. Both Xiphias & December have had a long interest in this MOD, and they both play and think about Starbow a lot more than I have time to do. So I am convinced that they will release some great patches! I hereby declare the development of Starbow led by Xiphias & Decemberscalm, and all of us will do everything we can to support them! Hipp hipp Hurray!   Hurray! Hurray! Hurray! ^^ | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Time to get to work  Warning there is a wall of text incomming. Me and dec look to get a new patch going as fast as possible and want to inform you / initiate discussion about the following topics: Burrow movement: + Show Spoiler + Burrow movement has not been added to the game yet, and we were wondering if we should change it. The options: 1. Let all zerg units (except lurkers and banlings) have burrow movement (overlord’isk speed). This only affects zerglings, hydras, infestors (which moves faster) and ultras (which already have burrow charge). 2. Only let this affect one unit (in addition to infestors). I was thinking zerglings. You rarely need to burrow-move hydras, and ultralisks have the new burrow-charge. Burrowed zerglings can work well vs mech before vessels come out and in general add another dimension to the game. Give this a try? These are my thought btw, I have not run this one by dec yet. The roles of Zerg air: + Show Spoiler + Muatilsk: Fast, harass, can work in regular combat if you encounter a good engagement. Devour: Anti-air AOE. Guardian: Zerg’s “capital ship” but is much less capital compared to toss and terran. Faster than a regular capital ship, but also much more fragile. Needs support (unlike BroodLord). Long range and only hits ground. Scourge: Should then be anti-capital ship (not too good vs battlecrouser though) and pick off dropships etc The Zergs ultimate anti-air is however not from air (imo). It is a combination of darkswarm, hydras an neural parasite… So where does that leave the scourge? Should it have splash or should that be reserved for the devour? If splash is removed, maybe we should increase their hp slightly to make them better vs capital ships. I feel zerg air gets the short end of the straw. Nerve jammer: + Show Spoiler + We suggest that this become attackable but benign. Same as before the new patch. No further changes. Sounds OK? Immortals and Protoss in general: + Show Spoiler + We feel that protoss can deal with mech but not in a strait – up way (unless you are way better than your oppodent ofc). Protoss have: Speedlots, blink, storm, stasis, crossairs (lift) and eventually some capital ship. None of these deal with mech fast or directly like the immortal can do. If the immortal does not deal with mech then it’s just a stalker (almost). On the other hand, trying to make a nullifier with useful spells has been a challenge, and protoss seems fine atm, even though the race as a whole may seem uninteresting for some. Our plans and thoughts are to remove the immortal and add no further protoss unit until other changes has been made to other races and then see if protoss has any further needs. When it comes to the tempest. I think the idea was to have a capital ship that demotes an oppodent deathball and works better in small numbers. Well …. The current tempest works fine in small numbers, but they also work even better in a deathball, so it is not really fixing the problem. The new pathing takes care of enemy deathballs (to a certain extent) so we suggest to revert back to the carrier. This may not be the ultimate unit since it works best in large number, but it adds interesting timings to the game (“have to hit before he gets a critical amount”). This may not be the unit of choise in “Ultimate Starbow” (the very finished version where all is balanced and everyone is happy…) but I think it can work for now. Terran spellcasters: + Show Spoiler + What we have at the moment: Science Vessel: - Nerve Jammer. - Irradiate - Emp (right?) Ghost: - Snipe. - Lockdown. - Clock. - Nuke The Vessel is almost a must in TvZ (mid-lategame) and good in TvP late-game to counter stasis. Moving emp to the ghost will most probably make the high-templar ghost dance that we all love from SC2 so that might not be a good idea as well. I was playing around with the idea of making nuke as strong as it was in BW, but as easy to get as in SC2. That will definitely make it more usefull, but at this time, it seems that Terran has all the fun tools they need already. Banshee, vuture with mines , reapers etc…. Any suggestions? The economy + Show Spoiler + We will try to lower gas income to 7 per trip and see how that works out. That might make terrans unable to spam vessels as they are meching. If not, we might up the gas cost of vessels later on. A more important topic for discussion: Upping the general mineral cap for each mineral patch to 1500 minerals. Me and dec talked about this some time ago and felt that this will not stop people from expanding, but rather give us an opportunity to see how the 6-7 base plays works out. How is Starbow with really good eco? This should not change much, however, only not force you to expand because you run out of minerals so fast. Any thoughts? To sum up: Things that will come in the next patch if no one disagrees: - Removed splash from scourge (maybe up their hp). - Revert nervejammer. - Remove immortal. - Carrier replaces tempest. - 7 gas per trip - 1500 minerals per patch To make a long post even longer, there will be other small changes as well that I will list in a patch note once it is released, but they will not affect the gameplay much and do not need to be discussed. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
That might make terrans unable to spam vessels as they are meching. If not, we might up the gas cost of vessels later on. Easier solution IMO to just increase supply from 2 to 3. Changing gas income will just lead to unintended consequences. | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
Fix cost of orbital commander from 150 to 100 Fix medic stimpack icon position (commands tab) as stimpack marine. Fix snapshots mines explosion (reaper ability) duration to 5 sec. Fix warpgate bt units (currently is as sc2). Fix zerg burrow movement. Fix lurker burrow time (increased it). Fix zerg overseer (remove changeling). -Make medic selection priority more high of marine. -Add a cooldown time for repeat the jump of the reaper. -Reduce cooldown of "snapshots mines" of reaper. -Change movement speed of spider mines from 9 to 6, and reduce period of army from 0.8330 to 0. -Increased permanently the overseer movement speed (1.88), after building a lair. if lair is destroyed, the speed does not vary (remain 1.88). -Reduce cost of nydus network/worm. Make it require pool, but nydus worm require creep for be built. -Buff devourer damage -Add a zerg build for unloack viper (hive tech). Make consume and frenzy require a research on this build. -Reduce mineral cost of viper. -If possible, make safe guard immortal ability, work on "vs armored damage army". -Add upgrades at protoss air units on beacon fleet. (Stasis field research, "feedback" research [scout ability], ecc...) -Increased damage and period of tempest weapon (more shots on the same target will be a loss of dps, the player must direct --The attacks of the tempests on different targets). This is what I think needs to be changed with priority. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On April 22 2013 23:27 JohnnyZerg wrote: Fix/changes list Fix cost of orbital commander from 150 to 100 - We'll discuss this one Fix medic stimpack icon position (commands tab) as stimpack marine. - Sure Fix snapshots mines explosion (reaper ability) duration to 5 sec. - Ah, I thought it was 5 sec. We'll look into it. Fix warpgate bt units (currently is as sc2). - This will be fixed in the next patch. Fix zerg burrow movement. - See post above. Fix lurker burrow time (increased it). - Is it different from what it was? Or do you want it to change? We'll look into it. Fix zerg overseer (remove changeling). - I know the changeling was probably added by mistake and not design, but we might want to keep it. Any thoughts? Make medic selection priority more high of marine. - Good idea, since they both have stim. We'll fix that. Add a cooldown time for repeat the jump of the reaper. - Kabel chose not to do this. We'll discuss it. Reduce cooldown of "snapshots mines" of reaper. - We'll look into this one as well. Change movement speed of spider mines from 9 to 6, and reduce period of army from 0.8330 to 0. - The mines will be changed slightly. Dec will make a VOD and explain later. Increased permanently the overseer movement speed (1.88), after building a lair. if lair is destroyed, the speed does not vary (remain 1.88). - I agree, Dec might not, we'll discuss it. Reduce cost of nydus network/worm. Make it require pool, but nydus worm require creep for be built. - Did we not decide to make nydus hive tech? We'll check it out. Buff devourer damage - Yeah I think it needs it. I have not looked at it much yet. Add a zerg build for unloack viper (hive tech). Make consume and frenzy require a research on this build. - Hmmm kinda like that Viper can come fsater now... We'll discuss it. Reduce mineral cost of viper. - Probably. If possible, make safe guard immortal ability, work on "vs armored damage army". - Immortal will most probably be removed. Add upgrades at protoss air units on beacon fleet. (Stasis field research, "feedback" research [scout ability], ecc...) - We will add more upgrades in general. A lot are missing atm. Increased damage and period of tempest weapon (more shots on the same target will be a loss of dps, the player must direct --The attacks of the tempests on different targets). - Tempest will most likely be replaced by carrier. This is what I think needs to be changed with priority. Thank you for pointing these things out. Many of these things are just things that still need to be done since SB was upgraded from WoL to HoTS. @ HideR There seems to be a general trend that players always have plenty of gas if they take all their gaysers and that makes gas-intensive units much better than their mineral heavy counterparts (e.g archons). We might do both though as massing SV seems to easy atm. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
On April 23 2013 00:53 Xiphias wrote: Thank you for pointing these things out. Many of these things are just things that still need to be done since SB was upgraded from WoL to HoTS. @ HideR There seems to be a general trend that players always have plenty of gas if they take all their gaysers and that makes gas-intensive units much better than their mineral heavy counterparts (e.g archons). We might do both though as massing SV seems to easy atm. Yes but massing SV's becomes inefficient if suply is increased from 2 to 3. Instead it will be optimal to just have 2-5 SV's in the mid and late game. If you have 20 then your main army will simply be too inefficient. A 50% suply increase will lead to the desired outcome without any unintended consequences (like I would fear that a gas reduction would make SV's less usefull in midgame, which would be a shame IMO). Without a doubt the same thing will happen to reapers (once optimal strategies gets figured out). But if gas income is reduced then reapers will become inefficient in midgame (as it will require like 5 geysers or so to support them). But increasing reaper supply from 1 to 2 will obtain the desired outcome; Make them usefull in all stages of the game. | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
Devour: Anti-aria AOE. + Show Spoiler + Currently only releases spores acidic so splash, but it doesn't damage to nearby units. The Devourer should not do aoe damage, but being an anti-capital ship as the sc2 corruptor. Scourge: Should then be anti-capital ship (not too good vs battlecrouser though) and pick off dropships etc The Zergs ultimate anti-air is however not from air (imo). It is a combination of darkswarm, hydras an neural parasite… So where does that leave the scourge? Should it have splash or should that be reserved for the devour? If splash is removed, maybe we should increase their hp slightly to make them better vs capital ships. I feel zerg air gets the short end of the straw. + Show Spoiler + Yeah. Should be so, but kabel has recently given splash damage, to avoid wars of mutalisks vs mutalisks. Since the task Anti-capital ship is played by the devourer, the scourge will take the role anti light air units (reduce main damage and increased splash damage vs light units). Nerve jammer: We suggest that this become attackable but benign. Same as before the new patch. No further changes. Sounds OK? + Show Spoiler + I liked the old nerve jammer, but I'd try a version of nerve aerial jammer, (this time will be engaged by anti-air units). Remember, this is "heart of the starbow"! Immortal: + Show Spoiler + Currently mass immortal destroy all mech, but if terran use new snapshots mines ability of reaper, terran may face Protoss Immortal (a snapshots mines remove all immortal shield.). Remember, this is heart of the starbow, must be differences. Tempest: + Show Spoiler + Why remove this units? I suggested to Increase the damage and cooldown of weapon of this unit. Check a few tempest will be easy to direct the attack on different targets, use many tempest will be more difficult and if you use a-click, there will be a dramatic drop in dps because the unit die with a few strokes (example: while is target from all 10 tempest). This is heart of the starbow, we want changes and no old units. Ghost: + Show Spoiler + Currently not has lockdown. Enter it if you like. Economy: + Show Spoiler + Reduce resource for trip is a good idea, but increased mineral field to 1500 is bad. This will increase the duration time of the base, so the player will not be "forced to expand." Innovative idea: The geyser of bw, after the exhaustion , continued to provide an income even if reduced. What do you think if this is applied on the geyser and on minerals? | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
About Zerg air. I did some testing and Devour do splash dmg atm (very small splash radius). They do OK vs battlecrusers (2 vs 1, almost wins, same resource count on both sides) and have extra damage vs armoured. On the other hand, even with less dmg vs normal they do extremly well vs crossairs and mutalisks atm (2 killed 5 mutas without loosing one Devour) so me and Dec will look further into zerg air to make sure each unit has its own well-defined realm. It is also important to remember that these units may play different roles in different times in the game. The scourge comes out way before the Devour, who rarely sees gameplay. Nothing has been decided yet concerning zerg air. Anyone up for some games? | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
- Zerg Burrowed Movement Given that both BW and HotS have Burrow as a Hatchery tech research now, I see no reason for us to have it at Lair. I think we should drop that down. Then, we can add in a Lair tech Tunneling Claws research "underneath" it (the same way upgrades work at the Evo Chamber) that unlocks burrowed movement for select units, i.e. Zerglings/Hydras/Drones?/Ultralisks. This allows Zerg to tech regular Burrow faster, as they should be able to, but keeps the burrowed-movement at Lair tech where it belongs, fitting with Lair's under/over assault theme. - Changeling on Overseer I don't like it. It always felt like a bad, gamey gimmick in SC2 and it still does now. If Overseers absolutely need an ability, give them the BW Queen's Parasite (call it Ocular Parasite to avoid confusion with Neural). - Scourge Design I think they need to keep the AoE or ZvZ is fucked. That's pretty much all there is to say on the matter. Something we might think about considering, though, is making Scourge a Zergling morph instead of requiring Spire, to break symmetry in ZvZ so you aren't forced to tech Spire if your opponent does. It could be a Lair tech research at the Baneling Nest, sort of like the BW Lurker Aspect. - Viper Building I agree with Johnny, it's powerful enough that it needs one. Defilers had their own structure in BW after all. Zerg can tech pretty fast in Starbow thanks to Nurturing Swarm, we should have more structures and researches. - Guardian I hate this thing. It's like three steps down in coolness/Zergy factor from the Broodlord, and it doesn't even function like the BW Guardian. I don't believe that Broodlords are inherently overpowered units - even in HotS right now they aren't gamebreaking, and that's with directly firing broodlings. Starbow BL's only spawn broodlings upon a units death. We should bring them back, they are the proper evolution of the Guardian from BW to Starbow, it's intended sequel. - Carrier and Tempest I think everyone agrees right now that the Tempest needs a solid whack in the head from the nerf bat. I also think a lot of people agree that the Carrier should return. But, must we really only have one of them? HotS has both capital ships, as they have pretty different roles, and it seems to work out nicely. I wouldn't mind trying to keep the Tempest (after nerfs) even with the Carrier back in the game. - Immortal If it is removed, I still maintain that we should have a caster unit in the Robo. I like this thing and I'm sure we can find a way to add more interplay with Mech than just being a hardcounter. - Ghost Definitely should bring Lockdown back. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
While I agree with many of suggestions but I also think reverting some other things will be step backward. What Im afraid most are suggested Economy changes. Zerg tech play will be much less viable. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
Protoss: Protoss got immortal, this unit is able to break through the siege lines enemy. Thanks to its ability may be subject to large amounts of damage to it and around friendly units. Carrier has been replaced by Tempest. Is the perfect units for destroy enemy builds from long distance. Terran: Terran have adapted to the protoss immortals thus obtaining the reaper. This unit (reaper) has g4-charge able to wipe out the armored units, thanks to their destructive power, these mines are able to remove all immortal shield. However reaper is fragile, it is a support unit. Zerg: Zerg did not get a fuck. Suggestion for a new zerg units: I think the zerg needs a ground units (tier 2) focused on anti air (maybe with a long range and attack while burrowed ^^). This units can be useful in Z vs Z to avoid wars of mutalisks vs mutalisks. In Z vs T can counter vessel with greater safety of scourge (for this terran has reaper ^^). In Z vs P, this can counter warp prism (with reavers) and tempest (eheh). Thoughts? | ||
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