On May 03 2011 08:47 Malinor wrote: Besides, the surrounding hype about Jaedongs zvt recently is in my opinion merely a reaction to Flashs frightening dominance and the believe, that Jaedong maybe able to take him down in a straight up series again. Plus, Jaedong is just a little bit more loved than Flash at Teamliquid.
it's more a reaction to the actual games, where jaedong bitchslapped flash/sea something silly
The reason Jaedong's ZvT is getting so much attention lately, is how well he played against Flash. Most of us can't remember a time Flash got manhandled by straight up 3 hatch muta play. Honestly, I don't really know what Jaedong could've done better that game. I know Flash made uncharacteristic mistakes, but that's not on Jaedong.
shit morality that was long , interesting but long i agree with most things you said my issue is if this isnt his best zvt era (jaedong's) then when in your opinion was it ? i admit i havnt followed starcraft from the beginning of jaedong career and i know he was a killer terran at the beginning . but i think he was relying on his 2 hatch / 3 hatch muta a lot back than and i just cant seem to spot a specific strategy he is using in his last games, i agree the amount of games are not that many but the quality of the games are pretty good .. in some games it reminded me of his zvp in 2009 when u just cant understand how to beat him..tough baby was close . anyway my question is when than is his best zvt era was if its not now(granted we need to see more games) ps it may have been long but was very educating to read
On May 03 2011 09:40 Yxes2211 wrote: The reason Jaedong's ZvT is getting so much attention lately, is how well he played against Flash. Most of us can't remember a time Flash got manhandled by straight up 3 hatch muta play. Honestly, I don't really know what Jaedong could've done better that game. I know Flash made uncharacteristic mistakes, but that's not on Jaedong.
Flash really just threw that game away is the problem. He made the exact same stupid mistake that Sea made throwing a hotkey of M&M away at an important time, and THEN DID IT AGAIN A FEW MINUTES LATER. This is not to say JD didn't kill him dead but the game was a big huge mess of Flash completely tanking and not pretty to watch at all.
On May 03 2011 08:47 Malinor wrote: Firstly, let me say that I don't have a qualified opionion to whether or not Flash is the greatest ever or if Jaedongs current zvt is the best zvt of all time.
Well, there is certainly no doubt that you have a lot of insight into broodwar and its history, plus we all probably enjoy a lot of what you write here (and also learn a lot about broodwar history). But I personally feel you are sometimes too educational. I am pretty capable of making my own mind and don't need to be told which criteria is the most important and which I should never ignore.
For example, I know that Jaedong and Flash have both 5 titles, plus several finals appearances. I know that Jaedong has been considered S-class since ~late 2007, that is such a ridiculous long time and not too far away from Nada anymore. I know that koreans label zvz in periods in "before Jaedong" and "after Jaedong". Before Flash, I watched tvp games with carriers and was furious to how unfair that matchup was. And while we are at it, if it weren't for Bisu, I would consider the game straight up imbalanced in pvz.
Now nothing of the above means that Flash or Jaedong are the greatest players of all time, but they are undoubtly collecting a lot of points along the way. In the end, comparisions between different eras are pretty much just a fanboy-war. Plus, in retrospective, the childhood hero Savior looks way more unbeatable than he maybe ever was. I for example sure as hell don't consider any random zvz-losses of Jaedong (for example vs Hogil which resulted in his OSL-exit) when I tell people how glorious he was/is in that match-up.
The worshipping of the innovators is certainly justified, but personally, the tennis player who invented the one-handed backhand clearly deserves a lot of respect, but at the end of the day, I want to see Roger Federer play it, because he does it like nobody ever before has.
On the stats-part I totally agree with you: comparisions between back then and today are straight up meaningless. It's a fact that there is inflation in ELO-systems and the number of games played today just makes BroodWar a different game than 6-7years ago, where you sometimes had several weeks to prepare for a specific opponent.
To sum up: I appreciate your input a lot, but most people who post regularly in the PR are pretty well informed about the history of BroodWar.
Besides, the surrounding hype about Jaedongs zvt recently is in my opinion merely a reaction to Flashs frightening dominance and the believe, that Jaedong maybe able to take him down in a straight up series again. Plus, Jaedong is just a little bit more loved than Flash at Teamliquid.
I don't mean to get too preachy. I realize I sometimes do. Part of the problem is that although some people are very well informed (some maybe better than me), some aren't and I read that shit and go "Jesus, why the fuck would anyone think that?" And I see all kinds of fanboy crap too. And a lot of other people -- some of whom might know a lot more than me -- just kind of shrug and think to themselves "fine, just drown in your own ignorance," but I tend to let myself get caught in it.
You're damn right that TBLS have done great things. In retrospect, it's getting to be ridiculous that JD was never considered a bonjwa and Bisu is pretty damn close as well, and Stork is the only player of the previous generation to have truly thrived in this one. I don't disrespect that. If I seem more critical of them, it's only because I spend more time trying to point out to fanboys that SC didn't begin with TBLS and it might not even end with them.
On May 03 2011 09:42 pvzvt wrote: shit morality that was long , interesting but long i agree with most things you said my issue is if this isnt his best zvt era (jaedong's) then when in your opinion was it ? i admit i havnt followed starcraft from the beginning of jaedong career and i know he was a killer terran at the beginning . but i think he was relying on his 2 hatch / 3 hatch muta a lot back than and i just cant seem to spot a specific strategy he is using in his last games, i agree the amount of games are not that many but the quality of the games are pretty good .. in some games it reminded me of his zvp in 2009 when u just cant understand how to beat him..tough baby was close . anyway my question is when than is his best zvt era was if its not now(granted we need to see more games) ps it may have been long but was very educating to read
Let me preface this by saying that the TL community tends to be absurdly reactionary. Although JD fans tend to be blind to me saying good things about their boy, I remember last year at one point people were talking about how JD was "only 3-7 in his last 10 ZvT" and I was going "yeah, but literally every game was vs Light or Flash." I don't think he was really slumping back then.
And it won't be clear that his ZvT is at its best right now until he's TRULY been put through the wringer. Flash and Light are the biggest tests and those are the tests I'd like to see.
Something to note about this time period is that a large part of his success back then is that he was so mechanically superior to the competition. He wasn't very well-rounded back then compared to how he is now. But it's also worth pointing out that around this time is when it started to become clear that Savior wasn't going to just bounce back. IIRC, Zerg entered a low point around here and JD's 2 hatch muta play was the only thing that was looking successful. A weak point compared to now is that with the JD of this time, there was this sense that "if I just break this one attack I win." And indeed, that was kind of the case... also, there were certain opponents with exceptionally strong defense against muta who JD had a lot of trouble with like Casy, Sheis, and Hwasin. But if you look at the players he beat and the stakes when he beat them... yeah.
Statistically weaker than his current period or the other I posted, but much longer in duration. Basically all of 2009. This was the period where JD started making like he was a bonjwa, but got robbed of the title when the Power Outage made his NATE MSL finals against Flash "an inconclusive test." (Going into the finals, the Korean community was hyped about deciding the 5th bonjwa, but coming out of it the bonjwa talk died down.) This is the period that I think really defined Jaedong as a player. In 2007 he was a player who could basically only win through mechanics and fighting spirit (that's not meant to be an insult: JD's fighting spirit was and still is very intense...), but by late 2009 he had transformed himself into a management based player and become tremendously versatile, and even though he was pushed to the wall so many times, just look at the line-up he faced in series play: bo3: wins- Hwasin, losses- Flash bo5: wins- Fantasy (twice), Canata (on fire), and Flash
Edit: TBH, if I ever faulted JD, it was that back in 2009 I still had a tendency to think of him from the perspective of his 2007 self, rather than acknowledging him as the player he was becoming. Jaedong really changed and I think that if there was a key moment at which he changed it was in August when he was facing a lot of top players and struggling. Losing to Calm in MSL, losing to Fantasy twice in PL grand finals (and had he at least won the second time he would have fought the Super Ace match, but instead SKT1 went home victorious). When I think about Jaedong's tenacity I think that any other player of comparable skill would have gone into that OSL semifinal against Fantasy and lost.
On May 03 2011 11:28 LunarDestiny wrote: The power rank #1 will be based on the games tonight. Hopefully Jaedong and Flash will play each other.
I have a hard time seeing JD not being #1 regardless of what happens tonight. The only way their positions would really switch is if Flash crushed JD convincingly twice, if JD lost to a second tier player like Stats and Oz still managed to take it to an ace match where he loses again to Flash, or if JD gets demolished by any of the rest of KT's players. Otherwise he should remain #1 for the month. Flash shouldn't move up if he doesn't play JD twice or if JD loses to one of KT's other players and he has to play an ace match, since none of the other players on Oz can really give Flash much of a challenge. If Flash loses to a non-JD player, I could see argument for Bisu passing him up to take 2nd on PR, but given how badly Flash dominated him in group D, I'd still be hesitant to do so.
Personally, I think we are going to have JD vs Crazy-Hydra or JD vs. Flash. I just can't see Oz not sending JD out on Circuit Breaker, and I'm sure KT is aware of JDs win/loss on CB. +9 with the second best player on the map being Reality at +5
On May 03 2011 07:35 Mortality wrote:2.) From 2000 to 2001, Garimto won 2 OSL titles and established himself as one of the smartest players to have ever played this game. In 2005 when he came back from the military and tried to get back into progaming his performance was pathetic, B-team level AT BEST. Why? Trying to argue he lacked talent is bullshit considering he's a 2 time OSL champ and one of the greatest innovators this game has ever seen, sustaining a 60% PvZ win rate back in a time when spawning pools cost 150 minerals and other than Giyom and IntoTheRain and Garimto there was nobody competent in that match-up. It's certainly not lack of effort. He gave it his best, but he found that younger players with less insight and faster hands were winning against him.
Point: the skill set needed to be the best has changed. (This is why I always say NaDa is the greatest: who else has been so dominant across generations of vastly different play? A few others have had cross generational success, but no other to such a degree.)
When I went back and rewatched the OSL Finals VODs a few months back, I was struck by the change between 2001 and 2005 - there were massive, epochal changes during that period (actual build orders, multi-base play, better and better macro) - and it scarcely looks like the same game.So it doesn't surprise me that a player who didn't play for years and who was from a previous era had troubled adjusting to those massive changes.
I don't know if that failure to adjust was indicative of his talent, which is sort of a hard thing to measure, but I think it was indicative of his skills. There was a higher minimum level of skill needed in terms of playing the game at top levels when he tried to make a comeback. It seems like you're just saying that the skill set "changed," but I can't imagine how you look at a game from 2011 and a game from 2001 and don't think that the game in 2011 shows immensely more skill than the game in 2001 - as would a game in 2007 or a game in 2005 or even a game in 2003, and so forth.
I think that's what made Nada's ability to stay relevant impressive - not just how he survived through major changes in how the game was played, but also staying relevant as the minimum level of skill was being raised - something I remember him being at the forefront of at one point. I'd argue that Jaedong has been about as successful in that respect - he's been playing for five years and has been at 68 - 70% every year since his first, where he was 57%, which is fairly close to what Nada did in terms of longevity - 75%, 70%, 63%, 63%, 53%, 60%, 45%, 49%, 18%. He still managed to get an OSL Silver in the 45% year, as well, though I seem to remember the Power Rank mentioning a relatively easy road.
But I think you wrote more text than the rest of the comments section combined, haha
But I'm not faulting you for it, because it just shows your passion for BW, and it's good that while we argue, we still care about the game this much.
Just remember guys, try not to get too offended or argumentative here; we're arguing points that could honestly go either way depending on what side of the bed you got off this morning. Also, this power rank is not decided by any of us, and by its very definition (written by one person and according to one person's feelings) it is very biased. If you think the power rank is "wrong", that is your right, but remember that the power rank, because it does not measure using actual statistics, can be defined in about a thousand different ways. In essence, though it may be wrong to you and your rubric, it may be completely right to several other people. Your logic is probably perfectly sound, but others' logic is too. Let's try and understand that and not argue too much over who deserves what, etc. Of course, some discussion and argument is actually encouraged, but let's not make this into something huge when it was never meant to be in the first place.
edit: having said all that... I actually don't want to see an FvJ, lol, I actually want to see something really random, like a Hiya VS Stats, or a Perfectman VS Action, or a CrazyHydra VS Lomo. I think these games make me relax and enjoy the game and all their mistakes, and make me remember why I love BW in the first place: it's just damn fun. FvJ is so f*cking tense it kills me. Feels like anything less than perfection is wholly unacceptable and the loser loses everything. It's fun sometimes, but I'm hoping for some hilarity tonight from the two SHALLOWEST teams in the league, KTFlash and JaedongOZ.
On May 03 2011 13:23 Keone wrote: No offense Mortality,
But I think you wrote more text than the rest of the comments section combined, haha
But I'm not faulting you for it, because it just shows your passion for BW, and it's good that while we argue, we still care about the game this much.
Just remember guys, try not to get too offended or argumentative here; we're arguing points that could honestly go either way depending on what side of the bed you got off this morning. Also, this power rank is not decided by any of us, and by its very definition (written by one person and according to one person's feelings) it is very biased. If you think the power rank is "wrong", that is your right, but remember that the power rank, because it does not measure using actual statistics, can be defined in about a thousand different ways. In essence, though it may be wrong to you and your rubric, it may be completely right to several other people. Your logic is probably perfectly sound, but others' logic is too. Let's try and understand that and not argue too much over who deserves what, etc. Of course, some discussion and argument is actually encouraged, but let's not make this into something huge when it was never meant to be in the first place.
edit: having said all that... I actually don't want to see an FvJ, lol, I actually want to see something really random, like a Hiya VS Stats, or a Perfectman VS Action, or a CrazyHydra VS Lomo. I think these games make me relax and enjoy the game and all their mistakes, and make me remember why I love BW in the first place: it's just damn fun. FvJ is so f*cking tense it kills me. Feels like anything less than perfection is wholly unacceptable and the loser loses everything. It's fun sometimes, but I'm hoping for some hilarity tonight from the two SHALLOWEST teams in the league, KTFlash and JaedongOZ.
I think the shallowest team is actually MBSea, because in past rounds, Hiya,Killer,Stats, and Perfective have shown some promise
On May 03 2011 13:23 Keone wrote: No offense Mortality,
But I think you wrote more text than the rest of the comments section combined, haha
But I'm not faulting you for it, because it just shows your passion for BW, and it's good that while we argue, we still care about the game this much.
Just remember guys, try not to get too offended or argumentative here; we're arguing points that could honestly go either way depending on what side of the bed you got off this morning. Also, this power rank is not decided by any of us, and by its very definition (written by one person and according to one person's feelings) it is very biased. If you think the power rank is "wrong", that is your right, but remember that the power rank, because it does not measure using actual statistics, can be defined in about a thousand different ways. In essence, though it may be wrong to you and your rubric, it may be completely right to several other people. Your logic is probably perfectly sound, but others' logic is too. Let's try and understand that and not argue too much over who deserves what, etc. Of course, some discussion and argument is actually encouraged, but let's not make this into something huge when it was never meant to be in the first place.
edit: having said all that... I actually don't want to see an FvJ, lol, I actually want to see something really random, like a Hiya VS Stats, or a Perfectman VS Action, or a CrazyHydra VS Lomo. I think these games make me relax and enjoy the game and all their mistakes, and make me remember why I love BW in the first place: it's just damn fun. FvJ is so f*cking tense it kills me. Feels like anything less than perfection is wholly unacceptable and the loser loses everything. It's fun sometimes, but I'm hoping for some hilarity tonight from the two SHALLOWEST teams in the league, KTFlash and JaedongOZ.
I think the shallowest team is actually MBSea, because in past rounds, Hiya,Killer,Stats, and Perfective have shown some promise
Pretending like CH and Action sucks ass is so sad -____- It's annoying that Action's win over fantasy were regarded as fantasy's lost and not as Action's win..
I don't understand why JD is a lock for number 1. The best people that JD beat (flash flash sea) are similar to the best people bisu beat (flash, JD, sea). Same number of losses, but bisu lost to good people (well person) and JD lost to great. Bisu won a playoff match for his team. Bisu won WL finals for his team, so his wins are on bigger stages that JD's Ro32. Bisu's team is doing better in proleauge (which matters very little I know, but it is something). Bisu won the head to head MU.
The only thing JD has going for him over bisu is one extra win (10-2 compared to 9-2). He will also probably have a 2-0 vs reality, but its reality so not that inportant. I don't know why that is so much more impressive than bisu.
You could make the argument that JD is a better player than Bisu, independent of records. I find that a difficult position to take considering he lost to bisu, but its possible. It is however certainly no "lock"
EPT
