EPTPower Rank 04/02/2011 - Page 23
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Yodo
Russian Federation327 Posts
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kamizushi
Canada52 Posts
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Yxes2211
United States1587 Posts
That aside, been analyzing JD's ZvT's, and did anyone else notice that Jaedong took his 3rd over 1:30 faster than he usually does in both games? | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
On May 02 2011 12:47 Yxes2211 wrote: JD is KeSPA #1 baby!!!! That aside, been analyzing JD's ZvT's, and did anyone else notice that Jaedong took his 3rd over 1:30 faster than he usually does in both games? Because Flash's micro was very sub-par in his game against jaedong. Anyways, we need a new power rank!!! | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 02 2011 14:08 Release wrote: Because Flash's micro was very sub-par in his game against jaedong. Anyways, we need a new power rank!!! won't be until like may 7'th. Hoping for another jaedong vs flash with jaedong winning again in decisive fashion or an epic game either way works for me :D. | ||
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Mumei
United States270 Posts
On May 02 2011 10:22 TwoToneTerran wrote: That's good and all, but Mortality doesn't care about stats so much that it's a complete argument. Oh, sorry. I wasn't trying to convince Mortality with that; I just thought it was a point of interest. | ||
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xarthaz
1704 Posts
On May 02 2011 08:24 Mortality wrote: Again, youre comparing ZvT players to TvZ players. This tells us nothing about the ZvT ranking, its like comparing apples to oranges.Yes I would. Because he did. Although he did even up the score. Jaedong slapped Flash silly in Group D. And that's one of the main reasons for why JD is going to be #1 on this ranking. (Technically Bisu also slapped Flash silly, but Flash slapped him right back.) That doesn't change the fact that this was JD's first win over an S-class TvZer since the start of last season in October of last year (1-4 record IIRC without looking at TLPD). And while his win percentage may be higher if we only look at 2011, that's could just be because 2 of those losses happened last year. Changing the snapshot of time does not necessarily mean that anything has changed with the player. JD has to prove it. He's on the road to doing so. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
 He stays on the PR IMO. | ||
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sixfour
England11062 Posts
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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sixfour
England11062 Posts
1 jaedong 2 flash 3 bisu 4 hydra 5 fbh 6 soulkey 7 mind 8 iris 9 light 10 s2 (but only based on SWL final) cbnc: fanta (only good win vs sea and out of msl), horang2 (loss to hyun bad, others from 7-10 make better claims), baby (not done much wrong but barely played and only 1-2 albeit with losses to JD/Light), stork (could put back on if he turns it around vs hydra, some bad losses and a lack of good wins) | ||
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gen.Sun
United States539 Posts
If stork beats hydra he should be number 3. If he loses he should be 7 or 8. | ||
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sixfour
England11062 Posts
could quite easily make a case for stork to be around 7 if he beats hydra. if not, the only good players he's beaten in the past month is firebathero and a slumping kal. | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
8 games, 5-3 record. Wins vs FBHx2, Ruby, Kal and Really. Loss vs Mind(in Ro32 still advanced), Alone and Hydra(down 0-1 so far in their series). | ||
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Keone
United States812 Posts
On May 02 2011 21:05 gen.Sun wrote: Don't understand how your rank works bra. Iris and fbh and bisu who failed out of the r32 is on the pr. Stork, who passed the round and is doing well in PL is not on. If stork beats hydra he should be number 3. If he loses he should be 7 or 8. doesn't work like that, "bra". PR is largely determined by how the writer perceives the "aura" to be about a player. Three games against Hydra doesn't change 4/5 spots on the PR, especially since Hydra already beat Stork in the first one. | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On May 02 2011 10:22 TwoToneTerran wrote: That's good and all, but Mortality doesn't care about stats so much that it's a complete argument. I'd argue Jaedong is to Flash what July was to Oov, and to a lesser extent Chojja/Yellow to Nada (This one isn't as comparable because I don't think yellow or chojja ever really gave Nada too hard a time). A roadblock early on in their career that they eventually overcome and not only beat, but do it so convincingly as to leave no doubt that there's only them at the top. Same goes for Nada to Savior, I suppose. And I think that after his double title win against Jaedong, Flash did it more convincingly than any other player besides maaaaybe Nada, and even then I think Nada had an easier time at it considering how many fewer games they had to play back then. Warning: wall of text incoming. Stats tell an important picture and I use them all the time in arguments, but there are important factors to consider: 1.) What stats DIRECTLY tell you has changed. Significantly. There was a time in the past where a top player's stats were only being computed from the Ro16 onward. In other words, to make over 78%, you would have to be consistently advancing to the finals and losing only 3 games at most per tournament, despite the fact that you are running into your most difficult competition sooner. More games in lower rounds as well as many more proleague games played have changed circumstances significantly. Consider how many of Boxer's games (as a percentage) were against Yellow or ChRh and that's just two opponents. The counter argument I always see to this is that "the skill gap has closed" (usually coming from the lips of someone who didn't even watch progaming back then). This is both true and not true (see my next point), but even if you assume it's more true than not true, the game has been evolving in such a manner that the better player is more and more likely to win. By that I mean that if your opponent does X, the "proper" move for you to make is vastly better understood. 2.) From 2000 to 2001, Garimto won 2 OSL titles and established himself as one of the smartest players to have ever played this game. In 2005 when he came back from the military and tried to get back into progaming his performance was pathetic, B-team level AT BEST. Why? Trying to argue he lacked talent is bullshit considering he's a 2 time OSL champ and one of the greatest innovators this game has ever seen, sustaining a 60% PvZ win rate back in a time when spawning pools cost 150 minerals and other than Giyom and IntoTheRain and Garimto there was nobody competent in that match-up. It's certainly not lack of effort. He gave it his best, but he found that younger players with less insight and faster hands were winning against him. Point: the skill set needed to be the best has changed. (This is why I always say NaDa is the greatest: who else has been so dominant across generations of vastly different play? A few others have had cross generational success, but no other to such a degree.) It's funny that you mention about Flash and JD being 8 and 10 years old waaay back when because that's exactly a large part of why they are so good today. Boxer and Garimto had the right skills for their time: the minds that could figure out how to fucking play this game at all. But Flash and Jaedong grew up in an era when APM was a hot topic and timing was starting to be discussed in a big way. They have been living and breathing this stuff since they were snot-nosed brats and it's paid off big. This doesn't take away from what they did. It does NOT mean "they're newbs for not figuring this stuff out from the beginning" and it does NOT mean that they couldn't have been great in other eras (although one should be careful not to assume that they necessarily would have been either -- for example, if nobody knows what apm is, nobody is going to train themselves to achieve 400+ apm, and likewise, the first players who do reach that level are not going to know yet how to use it efficiently, etc. -- had they grown up in different eras they might have been known as different kinds of players, or perhaps not even known at all... you simply CANNOT make any inference as to how good or bad they would have been). What it does mean is that statistics from one generation do not necessarily mean the same as statistics from another. It's a curve ball that is pretty much unique to Starcraft. It is exactly what makes Starcraft different -- BETTER IMO -- than regular sports or other videogames that are simpler: Starcraft is the most complex game that is played competitively that I am aware of. 3.) Factors that statistics cannot pick up -- such as how the degree to which a player pioneers a match-up -- cannot reasonably be ignored in this kind of discussion (that is to say, "greatest players ever"). Point 3 is in fact one of the things that makes Power Rank so interesting to begin with. When I consider greatest ever I try to balance these things. Because they all matter. If you want to separate the notions of "greatest" and "most statistically dominant," (where at first glance Flash would appear undisputed) I would argue that one should only consider record against S-class opponents. But then that becomes an issue in that, well, how do you determine who is S-class and who isn't? Some are obvious, but a lot of players are kind of borderline A/S, and even a player who might be considered S-class overall might really only be A-class in a certain match-up and.... you see how this can get ugly real fast and how any thread that attempts to deal with this issue can get overwhelmed by bitching fanboys. That hasn't even touched on the issue of "greatest" being partially dependent on a player's strategic influences to this game. There's no empirical method that can even be devised for that. Things can get especially difficult when we try talking about pre-LYH since exactly who invented/popularized what is often in dispute (even in the modern era... most players attribute July's role in modern ZvP from around Ever 08 OSL entirely to Jaedong). Maynard is only known for the Maynard transfer and probably half the people reading this thread don't even know what that is. Byun is only known today for the meme "Shut up and 9 drone." St.Eagle -- who is that again? (You might say he's the ultimate grandfather of TvP.) There's no doubt that good things can and should be said about Flash and Jaedong. Flash is just such a natural whiz kid, a lot like NaDa in so many ways. Jaedong has more tenacity than anyone else to have ever been a progamer. The best analogy I can think of is this: who is considered the greatest guitarist ever? There are guys today who can do all the same things Hendrix did and then some (albeit perhaps with less showmanship) and it's possible, I suppose -- however blasphemous music aficionados may consider it -- that one of those guys born in Hendrix's time could have been better, but the one who is the undisputed champ, no matter who I ask, is always Hendrix. On May 02 2011 09:33 infinity2k9 wrote: Who's being counted as S-Class, Light and Flash only? Yes. Fantasy, Midas, Baby and Sea I would all count as "A-class." Jaedong's consistency against them has been amazing, but I really want to see another series against Light or Flash. Otherwise, it's premature to say this is the best his ZvT ever has been, let alone the best ZvT there ever has been. By comparison, Savior's ZvT had to be tested numerous times against Boxer, Oov, NaDa, Midas, etc., before he earned that title. (And TLnetter tfeign STILL refused to believe Savior was better than Chojja.) On May 02 2011 16:38 xarthaz wrote: Again, youre comparing ZvT players to TvZ players. This tells us nothing about the ZvT ranking, its like comparing apples to oranges. I suggest you re-read what I wrote. How else do measure a player's ability if not by looking at who his wins/losses are against? | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
1. JD (7-2) - the obvious choice thus far 2/3. Flash (6-3)/Bisu (7-2)... order could go either way right now ---Big Cut--- 4. Hydra - seems the best choice. Although he lost both games vs KT, he's looking so solid on the whole right now. I shouldn't have doubted him. 5. Soulkey (5-2) - what a break out month. 6. FBH (4-2) - bad luck in facing Stork twice in MSL group stages. Current level of play is more deserving than a Ro32 exit from MSL 7. Light (5-2) - this month's dark horse, with an improved looking TvP... but considering how bad it was before, that's not saying too much, 1 game away from breaking into 2200 ELO 8. Mind (5-2) - another dark horse, looking real strong lately, getting close to his ELO peak 9. Leta (3-2) - Currently 1 up over Soulkey, may have escaped his slump but we'll see... worth noting his wins in group stages 10. Zero (4-2) - I feel like every month Zero delivers at least one incredible game. Hopefully we'll see him go places this MSL. Potential CBNC: (for a variety of reasons, more CBNC than I usually like having -- hopefully as # of results increases I can cut some) Stork (5-3) - arguably more worthy of a ranking than some others. I may still consider moving him up because CBNC feels way too low Baby (1-2) - hardly played this month and his 2 losses were both to very strong players Movie (2-1) - start keeping an eye on Movie again. The last time he was like this he made a finals soon afterward Fantasy (3-5) - gets the boot and will probably lose his KeSPA #1 as well. I think Jaedong might actually be claiming it this month? But I'd comment that his record looks worse than his skill. This isn't like his "slump" in Dec/Jan. Back then he looked spooked. Right now he's playing good SC, but his opponents have been playing better. Sea (3-3) - why does it always seem like Sea faces the most difficult opponents every month? 3 losses to Bisu, JD and Fantasy. Win over Dear is meaningless. Wins over Skyhigh and Fantasy? Poor kid has played 5 out of 6 games against Terran killers. s2 (5-4) - instrumental in securing SKT1's WL trophy, but is that by itself worth a rank? Iris (4-0) - I'd like to see a high profile win before I bump you up to the ranking proper Horang2 (4-2) - Horang2 is likely to make Ro8 in MSL? Horang2?!?! Great (5-3) - Probably should not be included, but I thought he should be mentioned in case he continues wracking up PL wins. Still, not playing up to the measure I expect from ranking proper, let alone a finalist. Note: I don't want this many people actually listed on CBNC but it's still too soon to make the final call on a number of them... | ||
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Malinor
Germany4755 Posts
Well, there is certainly no doubt that you have a lot of insight into broodwar and its history, plus we all probably enjoy a lot of what you write here (and also learn a lot about broodwar history). But I personally feel you are sometimes too educational. I am pretty capable of making my own mind and don't need to be told which criteria is the most important and which I should never ignore. For example, I know that Jaedong and Flash have both 5 titles, plus several finals appearances. I know that Jaedong has been considered S-class since ~late 2007, that is such a ridiculous long time and not too far away from Nada anymore. I know that koreans label zvz in periods in "before Jaedong" and "after Jaedong". Before Flash, I watched tvp games with carriers and was furious to how unfair that matchup was. And while we are at it, if it weren't for Bisu, I would consider the game straight up imbalanced in pvz. Now nothing of the above means that Flash or Jaedong are the greatest players of all time, but they are undoubtly collecting a lot of points along the way. In the end, comparisions between different eras are pretty much just a fanboy-war. Plus, in retrospective, the childhood hero Savior looks way more unbeatable than he maybe ever was. I for example sure as hell don't consider any random zvz-losses of Jaedong (for example vs Hogil which resulted in his OSL-exit) when I tell people how glorious he was/is in that match-up. The worshipping of the innovators is certainly justified, but personally, the tennis player who invented the one-handed backhand clearly deserves a lot of respect, but at the end of the day, I want to see Roger Federer play it, because he does it like nobody ever before has. On the stats-part I totally agree with you: comparisions between back then and today are straight up meaningless. It's a fact that there is inflation in ELO-systems and the number of games played today just makes BroodWar a different game than 6-7years ago, where you sometimes had several weeks to prepare for a specific opponent. To sum up: I appreciate your input a lot, but most people who post regularly in the PR are pretty well informed about the history of BroodWar. Besides, the surrounding hype about Jaedongs zvt recently is in my opinion merely a reaction to Flashs frightening dominance and the believe, that Jaedong maybe able to take him down in a straight up series again. Plus, Jaedong is just a little bit more loved than Flash at Teamliquid. | ||
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