Power Rank 04/02/2011 - Page 22

On May 02 2011 02:15 Elroi wrote:

Bisu's pvp used to be out of this world during his dominant period.

On May 02 2011 02:20 Mortality wrote:


Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today.

However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions.

On May 02 2011 03:30 ghrur wrote:


Uhhh, he's only losing to Light in proleague, never in series play. So just one game applies to all those SWL/SPL games too. Series play, JD has never lost to light. To say he's getting slapped around is exaggerating it I think.

On May 02 2011 02:20 Mortality wrote:


Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today.

However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions.

On May 02 2011 02:20 Mortality wrote:


Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today.

However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions.

On May 02 2011 06:31 Musou wrote:

Agreed. Every single series he's played against Light has been ridiculously close. I think JD has the stronger mental mindset for series, but Light just has that knack for TvZ regardless of preparation, so JD's preparation allows him to take down Light, but not without a very difficult fight (2-1 in Ever2007 OSL, Batoo OSL, WCG2010 and 3-2 in Bigfile MSL).

However, he has been getting slapped silly by Flash in all but their most recent battle. Up until the infamous Power Outage MSL, JD had been barely holding a winning record against Flash, but then Flash just made him look like any other generic zerg in their last few series. He looked quite dominant in the group D play, but part of it was Flash making uncharacteristic mistakes with his early bio force, similar to how he threw away the games in KAL OSL 1. I'd definitely like to see a JvF finals for this MSL with both players in top condition.

On May 02 2011 06:31 Musou wrote:Up until the infamous Power Outage MSL, JD had been barely holding a winning record against Flash

On May 02 2011 06:51 Mortality wrote:


Except that when "just one game" happens 3 times it's no longer "just one game." Does that make any sense? -_-

And I already said that he looked great in his game against Flash in Group D but I want to see more of that level of play against S-class TvZers before I say that his TvZ is in the best shape of his career.

On May 02 2011 06:51 Elroi wrote:

He played Flash and Light literally 20 times in a row (if you only count his vT) last season, of these games he won 10 on some of the worst maps I have ever seen for ZvT. (Sea said notably in an interview that those maps were impossible for zerg to win on if the terran player played correctly). Yes, Jaedong got beaten badly by Flash but Flash has the best TvZ in the history of the game, however you cut it.

Who are those old zerg giants that are better than the tyrant? I think the only zerg that can compete with Jaedong in zvt (or in any match up) is Savior. It depends on how you see it: you would like to count only his mini slump in the beginning of this season (were he went something like 0-3 vs Flash and Light) but you don't want to concider his last games because they are too few. If you counte further back or more recent games, Jaedong has the best or the second best zvt in the history of the game imo.

It's a lot more than one game that Jaedong has won. If it was Fantasy or Baby instead of Jaedong I bet you'd be all over the place now lol.

On May 02 2011 06:55 xarthaz wrote:
You can think whatever you like, however the most widely accepted statistical method of ELO confirms that JD at tthis point is the best ZvT player of all time, not only in absolute terms, but also in relative terms, as that is what ELO describes.

See for yourself: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/detailed_elo.php?historyStorageField={"DhtmlHistory_pageLoaded":true,"":{"tblt":"1526"},"tblt-1526-1-7-DESC":null}&section=korean&race=Z#tblt-1469-1-5-DESC

On May 02 2011 07:14 Mortality wrote:


Flash best TvZ ever? In an absolute sense, but in a relative sense I'd actually put him dead last among the bonjwas (that is to say, 4th best TvZ in history).

The best ZvTer ever is still unambiguously Savior, who convincingly defeated the most fearsome TvZ line-up on the worst maps and changed the match-up more than any player since Yellow and more than any player that followed him. #2 is a toss up with Jaedong a top contender, but Yellow, July, and Gorush should not be counted out. I will count out Yarnc on the grounds that he impacted the match-up very little and never faced a top TvZer in bo5.

And quit acting like I anti-fanboyishly hate Jaedong. That kind of fanboyish bullshit is ridiculous. Although I have acknowledged liking Fantasy more than TBLS, I have always been one of the first to be willing to toss him off the ranking when he under-performs. Back in December last year I took flak for saying that he shouldn't be on the January 2011 ranking and in case you've been following, This was not long after fantasy had ELO peaked. So who the fuck are you to criticize me when I've never seen you do anything but wank on Jaedong?

I appreciate what these giants have done because I have been watching progaming from the beginning and I've seen the tremendous changes that have happened to this game and how it's played. In fact, one could argue that the greatest ZvTer ever is in fact not Savior or Jaedong, but Yellow. I do not think any Zerg player has done as much for that match-up as Yellow has. That's something that statistics and results simply cannot capture, but even if we look at statistics, Yellow sustained an incredibly high win-rate despite facing Boxer and Nada so many times, and not always on favorable maps.

On May 02 2011 07:14 Mortality wrote:Flash best TvZ ever? In an absolute sense, but in a relative sense I'd actually put him dead last among the bonjwas (that is to say, 4th best TvZ in history).

The best ZvTer ever is still unambiguously Savior, who convincingly defeated the most fearsome TvZ line-up on the worst maps and changed the match-up more than any player since Yellow and more than any player that followed him. #2 is a toss up with Jaedong a top contender, but Yellow, July, and Gorush should not be counted out. I will count out Yarnc on the grounds that he impacted the match-up very little and never faced a top TvZer in bo5.

I appreciate what these giants have done because I have been watching progaming from the beginning and I've seen the tremendous changes that have happened to this game and how it's played. In fact, one could argue that the greatest ZvTer ever is in fact not Savior or Jaedong, but Yellow. I do not think any Zerg player has done as much for that match-up as Yellow has. That's something that statistics and results simply cannot capture, but even if we look at statistics, Yellow sustained an incredibly high win-rate despite facing Boxer and Nada so many times, and not always on favorable maps.

On May 02 2011 07:45 Elroi wrote:
You wouldn’t say, for instance, that Yellow got “slapped silly” by Boxer.

On May 02 2011 09:32 TwoToneTerran wrote:Back to matchups, I'd say Flash has the best matchup of any terran of any time because he's put up a career's worth of +70% winrate and during his bonjwa run he was clearly far, far above that statistic during his 2009-2010 era.

Wins	Losses		
Year 1	58	34	92	63.04%
Year 2	100	46	146	68.49%
Year 3	118	33	151	78.15%
Year 4	113	36	149	75.84%
Year 5*	4	2	5	60.00%
Total 	393	151	543	72.24%
Year 5 = Just started		

On May 02 2011 09:57 Mumei wrote:


Flash's first standard league game was April 13, 2007. So starting from then:

Wins	Losses		
Year 1	58	34	92	63.04%
Year 2	100	46	146	68.49%
Year 3	118	33	151	78.15%
Year 4	113	36	149	75.84%
Year 5*	4	2	5	60.00%
Total 	393	151	543	72.24%
Year 5 = Just started		

Year 1 being April 13, 2007 through April 13, 2008; Year 2 being April 13, 2008 through April 13, 2009, and so forth. His third and fourth years have been insanely impressive. And if you take snapshots, like between October 15, 2009 through May 5, 2010, when he won 82% of the 100 games he played, he looks even better. The only years from other players that really compare are Nada's first year (24 - 8; 75%) or iloveoov's first year (42 - 14; 75%).

So yes. Far above that.

Flash	64.42	69.80	76.43	76.92	(8-4)
Jaedong	64.29	72.17	69.03	69.75	69.38	(6-2)
Bisu	69.81	63.04	51.19	75.00	59.79	(61-20)
Hydra	47.22	63.38	60.00	(5-2)
fantasy	60.34	55.81	64.15	62.50	(12-7)
BaBy	41.03	58.46	58.16	55.14	(4-3)
Stork	57.89	54.76	69.37	64.86	58.78	59.55	(54-29)
Light	56.25	58.02	57.83	64.15	58.73	(7-5)
Stats	47.92	54.67	61.76	(2-1)
Mind	42.86	67.09	56.03	50.00	53.42	(16-7)
ZerO	47.83	50.00	60.87	53.91	(5-4)
Sea	42.11	63.24	68.04	63.10	47.95	64.76	(38-34)