EPTPower Rank 04/02/2011 - Page 26
| Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet |
|
infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
| ||
|
Nesto
Switzerland1318 Posts
On May 04 2011 06:43 Keone wrote: Firstly, there are so many fools saying that the irradiate wouldn't have done enough damage. Guys. Seriously? Irradiate doing damage is the MINOR part. The MAIN part is that it forces the Zerg to retreat and stop attacking by splitting his mutas and leaving the scene. You guys amaze me, do you ever play Terran??? Against a good zerg, NO TERRAN expects Irradiate to do a lot of damage. It has one main purpose, and that's to stop the effectiveness of Mutalisk harass, because they can't clump anymore. The other one, if you're lucky, is that it does significant damage to the mutas, but that's only against noob zergs. If that irradiate had worked, several things would have happened. 1. because JD would have had to split the mutas AWAY from the Terran base, he couldn't pressure the attack anymore. His lings wouldn't have been able to run up at that timing because the marines would have made tomato soup out of them. 2. If JD for some reason decided to split the mutas in any direction apart from directly away from the base, some would have died to turrets, because Flash had 3 in his nat and more in his main. 3. Flash wouldn't have had to pull the 4 marines out of the bunker in front, which he ONLY DID because the Irradiate fail. This allowed the zergling runby. And before someone stupid says something about how the runby would have succeeded anyway, the point of the placement was that the bunker can kill the lings on the ramp while SCV's block their path. 4. Finally, even if JD had quickly removed the irradiated one, and returned, this would have allowed Flash exactly what he wanted: TIME. Irradiate is, again, not used to KILL mutalisks (well, except one), it's made to PREVENT their attacks. This would have allowed Flash another round of marines, and time to start rebuilding or repairing his turrets. I can't believe the people on TL who are saying how "dumb" Flash was, and act as if they knew exactly why he did what. This is Flash. Don't insult him by trying to say you know strategy better than him. He had a game plan and it failed in a manner that no one has ever seen an irradiate fail. Seriously, when's the last time you've seen that? I don't think I've ever seen an irradiate like that before, and I'm sure Flash had rarely, if ever, had that kind of situation, and he would not have expected that to come up in a game VS JD. His game plan was solid. Having said all that, JD's game plan was solid and his execution was flawless. He did everything exactly right, and I'm sure he didn't mean to end it that quickly, but he's JD, he will destroy if given the slightest chance. Everything JD did was perfect and nothing but full credit to the guy. The only thing I'm trying to say is, stop this "Flash never could have won because of his crappy build order etc. etc.". That's nonsense. Flash knew what he was doing and it failed in dramatic fashion. When's the last time you've EVER seen a progamer so surprised? (seriously now.) Even Flash's twitch madness was nothing compared to the reaction we got yesterday. Having said all that, JD should be at #1 in this next PR. I don't think there's anyone who disagrees with that. As for #2... I have no clue, because Bisu dropped out of Starleagues (what a surprise). And I think Sea in the past has proven that SPL alone is not enough for a good PR ranking. maybe you should rewatch the game before you start calling people fools. There were 8 Marines left, including the four from the bunker (which he pulled before the irradiate), when the irradiate went off, another 2 dying when the irradiate is cast. There was no nearby turret left. And buying time for another round of marines, I was never good at math, so can you tell me how much a round of marines from 2 Rax is? | ||
|
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On May 04 2011 03:41 hacklebeast wrote: but that loss to great is too important to overlook. Shouldn't the best player only lose to other S classes? Fuck, I can't believe I'm going to respond for something this stupid. Do you even fucking watch SC? Because it looks like you don't. The difficulty with ZvZ -- the reason it is known for being the most unstable match-up -- is that you are locked into your build before you have a chance to scout. JD tried to do something very sneaky (hint: watch his OL scouting pattern) but when he failed to receive information he: a.) attacked the most likely base of his opponent given what he knew b.) if his opponent was at the other base (the less likely one), he could more quickly reinforce, so even if the probability was 50/50 he made the right choice JD badly outplayed Great that game, but bad luck gave Great an insurmountable advantage. If Bisu died to an unscouted 5 pool would you go "omg, I guess Bisu sucks now?" @Mumei (since I'm already posting): Modern SC shows different skills than old SC. You're looking at old school SC strictly through the eyes of a modern gamer, thinking about notions like "timing," "midgame plan," mechanics, etc. The ability to develop these notions (not to simply refine a timing, but to think of the game in terms of timing windows when NOBODY else in the ENTIRE WORLD is doing that...) if that's not a skill then I don't know what is. The very most blatant example: Maynarding workers is blindingly obvious... except it wasn't. It just wasn't something you did. This isn't just nostalgia. Any old schooler (provided he doesn't have an attitude like Idra) will tell you that Garimto was one of the smartest players to have ever played this game. That's what made things so frustrating for him: this is a STRATEGY game after all, but when you live in an era of standardized strategies (that have become standard based in large part on YOU) and you find yourself losing simply because your opponents are better at building more units... (I'm not saying strategy is dead. It isn't. But the "correct" approach to Starcraft has changed and the only reason the "correct" approach of today is better is that we already understand those things we learned in the past. If we did not understand those things, then today's approach would not work because it is predicated on that groundwork. It would be like trying to build a theory of calculus without even knowing what a number is.) P.S. DJetter was unbelievably biased in his commentary. His rankings weren't as bad, but I'd hardly call them ideal. NaDa was ranked #3 below Anytime when he beat Anytime for his golden mouse and then ranked #5 when he achieved OSL silver against Savior. And then there was Nal_Ra whose PR entry literally said "PLEASE LOSE." Fuck, post way too long again. | ||
|
HopLight
Sweden999 Posts
On May 04 2011 06:43 Keone wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Firstly, there are so many fools saying that the irradiate wouldn't have done enough damage. Guys. Seriously? Irradiate doing damage is the MINOR part. The MAIN part is that it forces the Zerg to retreat and stop attacking by splitting his mutas and leaving the scene. You guys amaze me, do you ever play Terran??? Against a good zerg, NO TERRAN expects Irradiate to do a lot of damage. It has one main purpose, and that's to stop the effectiveness of Mutalisk harass, because they can't clump anymore. The other one, if you're lucky, is that it does significant damage to the mutas, but that's only against noob zergs. If that irradiate had worked, several things would have happened. 1. because JD would have had to split the mutas AWAY from the Terran base, he couldn't pressure the attack anymore. His lings wouldn't have been able to run up at that timing because the marines would have made tomato soup out of them. 2. If JD for some reason decided to split the mutas in any direction apart from directly away from the base, some would have died to turrets, because Flash had 3 in his nat and more in his main. 3. Flash wouldn't have had to pull the 4 marines out of the bunker in front, which he ONLY DID because the Irradiate fail. This allowed the zergling runby. And before someone stupid says something about how the runby would have succeeded anyway, the point of the placement was that the bunker can kill the lings on the ramp while SCV's block their path. 4. Finally, even if JD had quickly removed the irradiated one, and returned, this would have allowed Flash exactly what he wanted: TIME. Irradiate is, again, not used to KILL mutalisks (well, except one), it's made to PREVENT their attacks. This would have allowed Flash another round of marines, and time to start rebuilding or repairing his turrets. I can't believe the people on TL who are saying how "dumb" Flash was, and act as if they knew exactly why he did what. This is Flash. Don't insult him by trying to say you know strategy better than him. He had a game plan and it failed in a manner that no one has ever seen an irradiate fail. Seriously, when's the last time you've seen that? I don't think I've ever seen an irradiate like that before, and I'm sure Flash had rarely, if ever, had that kind of situation, and he would not have expected that to come up in a game VS JD. His game plan was solid. Having said all that, JD's game plan was solid and his execution was flawless. He did everything exactly right, and I'm sure he didn't mean to end it that quickly, but he's JD, he will destroy if given the slightest chance. Everything JD did was perfect and nothing but full credit to the guy. The only thing I'm trying to say is, stop this "Flash never could have won because of his crappy build order etc. etc.". That's nonsense. Flash knew what he was doing and it failed in dramatic fashion. When's the last time you've EVER seen a progamer so surprised? (seriously now.) Even Flash's twitch madness was nothing compared to the reaction we got yesterday. Having said all that, JD should be at #1 in this next PR. I don't think there's anyone who disagrees with that. As for #2... I have no clue, because Bisu dropped out of Starleagues (what a surprise). And I think Sea in the past has proven that SPL alone is not enough for a good PR ranking. Thank You! Exactly what I've been thinking but been too lazy to write. | ||
|
deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
Also the 4 marines had left the bunker before the irradiate was cast. | ||
swanized
Canada2480 Posts
On May 03 2011 22:17 Harem wrote: I hope that you enjoy Disneyland for this travesty then. Harem and I should co-write the PR from now on to remove FW's bias | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
On May 04 2011 07:37 swanized wrote: Harem and I should co-write the PR from now on to remove FW's bias No. | ||
|
Yodo
Russian Federation327 Posts
Bisu's statistic looks good but, cmon, he did nothing to break image of one-mu player, all his wins are versus zergs (ggaemo, Hyun, CH with fail cheeez and yes, SWL win over JD ) and his vT is weak, and we have no clue about current state of Bisu's PvP. SWL wins vs MSL loss, which one is more important? For me, SWL hero is S2, not Bisu and MSL's group of death - were the real field to show your skills. | ||
|
hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
1. It is natural to want to compare #1 and #2 head to head, but why do we want to do it through flash? Bisu played JD, Why is that less important than JD>flash, flash>bisu? If Flash is that good that everyone should be compared to how close they are to being as good as him, shouldn't we put him first? 2. I would love some one to make an argument as to why MSL Ro32 should be weighted more heavily than WL playoffs should. Here is what I see: Finals has a special bigger stadium with bleachers full of people, Ro32 has the normal stadium. When Bisu won he put on a new shirt announcing his victory and hoisted a cup into the air, JD bowed and walked back stage. Ro32 had the three best players in the world and sea, WL playoffs had the best three, along with fantasy, stats, and leta (if you don't want to include players that Bisu didn't play in playoffs, I don't see why we should include bisu as a part of that MSL group when talking about how hard it was for JD). In playoffs, players had a week to prepare for each set, in Ro32 all of the games were played the same day, and players had about 2-4 days to prepare. JD dominated his opponents (in Ro32), Bisu dominated his opponents (in playoffs). Why is the Ro32 more important? And a clarification for mortality (who I understand is trying not to post here, so I'm ok with no response): I understand that ZvZ is volatile, and that it is hard to be consistent at it, but that argument is undermined by the fact that JD has a 75%+ win rate at it. And JD had the BO win, which makes losing even more his fault. 9 pool counters 12 hatch, and if he then had a 2/3 chance of finding his opponent (can scout one location and then send lings to a second), than he loses 4/9th of the time, wins 2/9th and faces a mirror 9 pool the other third. He tried to play mind games and picked a strategy that doesn't work well on that map, and loss. I see no reason to excuse that (and all that is assuming that there is no skill involved which 75%+ disproves). If bisu had lost to a 5 pool, I would not say he is bad, but I wouldn't be arguing he should be #1. No need to be mean though  | ||
|
Malinor
Germany4758 Posts
Bisu has not done something worthnoty in the individual leagues for probably ~2 years now. The Playoff GrandFinals might be the biggest stage in whole StarCraft and the WinnersLeague Playoffs might also be very important, but to be considered the best player in the world it is not enough to get a clutch win in some team finals, you have to do something in individual leagues. This boils down to a fact that you might not like: Bisu has to do more than Jaedong or Flash to get #1. Flash is maybe the best player ever and Jaedong is the only one that can be considered to be in the same league as Flash, just look at the results in the last two years and this becomes evident even if you don't watch StarCraft. If we have a three way fight for the #1 spot, Bisu has to show that he is not only on par with those two, but that he is better than them, because they will get the benfit of the doubt. Not because it is unfair, but because they have earned it. Now what do we have to work with here? Flash and Jaedong picking up the pieces of their teams performance during the SWL playoffs, which results in a situation where Bisu can train only to snipe those guys, even on a map of his choice, while the other two have to prepare 3 different matchups on basically 4 different maps. It was a very good job by Bisu, but to be honest, he had a clear advantage here. Now they meet again in the group of death, where Bisu can prove that he can do well in individual leagues again, and he simply gets crushed like a fly, even unable to adapt to his massive advantage with scouting Flashs proxy rax. There may very well be a case that Bisu should be above Flash, sinds Flash did not have a good month. But the way Jaedong is playing, beating the best player in the hardest zerg-matchup twice, he must be first. There is no way around it, even if he lost to Bisu. | ||
|
GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On May 04 2011 03:41 hacklebeast wrote: If the Ro32 is really worth that much, I hope to see grape on the list because he 2-0ed as well. Yes JD won the group that had Bisu in it, but Bisu won the WL playoffs that had JD in it. Not only is that one more important, but in only that one did Bisu and JD actually play. So when I said that JD only had a record over bisu, I was counting the fact that WL playoffs/finals carries more weight than the Ro32. I forgot about fantasy. so JD does have a little better wins, but that loss to great is too important to overlook. Shouldn't the best player only lose to other S classes? I don't think the win over fantasy is enough to propel him past bisu by leaps and bounds (because that win is the only think that JD has over Bisu). And bisu lost badly to flash twice, but he beat JD and flash badly as well. There wasn't a TBLS game that was close this month (admittedly I haven't seen the most recent one, but the LR seems to indicate a one sided affair). ...There wasn't a game that was close? What about the one where Flash failed a cheese against Bisu, was at a big economic disadvantage, and then won? Or the next game where Bisu was up 6 bases to 3, but then lost due to poor stasises and getting a bunch of troops trapped at the 6? Bisu had every chance to win both games, but showed terrible decision making. | ||
|
Tempest[OEC]
United States417 Posts
On May 04 2011 08:27 Yodo wrote: Second place is the most interesting now. I think that Flash deserve it more than Bisu. Bisu's statistic looks good but, cmon, he did nothing to break image of one-mu player, all his wins are versus zergs (ggaemo, Hyun, CH with fail cheeez and yes, SWL win over JD ) and his vT is weak, and we have no clue about current state of Bisu's PvP. SWL wins vs MSL loss, which one is more important? For me, SWL hero is S2, not Bisu and MSL's group of death - were the real field to show your skills. Really? Are people saying his PvT is weak just because he lost to Flash a couple times? That would mean every other Protoss's PvT sucks too. Im tired of reading these statements when simply, Bisu's PvT has been doing quite well this season. | ||
|
Elroi
Sweden5617 Posts
On May 04 2011 08:47 hacklebeast wrote: 2. I would love some one to make an argument as to why MSL Ro32 should be weighted more heavily than WL playoffs should. Here is what I see: Finals has a special bigger stadium with bleachers full of people, Ro32 has the normal stadium. When Bisu won he put on a new shirt announcing his victory and hoisted a cup into the air, JD bowed and walked back stage. Ro32 had the three best players in the world and sea, WL playoffs had the best three, along with fantasy, stats, and leta (if you don't want to include players that Bisu didn't play in playoffs, I don't see why we should include bisu as a part of that MSL group when talking about how hard it was for JD). In playoffs, players had a week to prepare for each set, in Ro32 all of the games were played the same day, and players had about 2-4 days to prepare. JD dominated his opponents (in Ro32), Bisu dominated his opponents (in playoffs). Why is the Ro32 more important? OK. This is why: Bisu just sat back and waited until Flash and Jaedong both had to play against the entire SKT team. He could then pick the map that he wanted to play on and that he had prepared for. In the Starleague he couldn't hide behind his team anymore and it showed that Flash was clearly two steps ahead of him. The second reason why you can't compare Jaedong and Bisu right now is that Jaedong is playing the Starcraft of his life. I don't know if you have seen his games recently but they are... incredible. Go watch how he played against Baby and then watch other zergs play zvt. Try to find one game were the zerg snipes drop ships as well as Jaedong did in that game. Jaedong killed 60 marines with scourge ffs. If bisu had lost to a 5 pool, I would not say he is bad, but I wouldn't be arguing he should be #1. This is not how it works, anyone can lose to a 5 pool. I repeat: watch the games. The level of play people show in games is a very important indicator of how good some one is for the moment (more so than the size of the stadium). I don't think you have been watching the games you are talking about or you wouldn't talk so much about that game vs Great that was obviously a fluke (for reasons that Mortality already has pointed out). This is not to say that Jaedong is necessarily more skilled than Bisu in an absolute sens. It is just this month. Maybe Jaedongs hot streak ends next month and Bisu takes over, but now you can't really compare them. | ||
|
renzy
Canada781 Posts
On May 04 2011 10:41 Elroi wrote: OK. This is why: Bisu just sat back and waited until Flash and Jaedong both had to play against the entire SKT team. He could then pick the map that he wanted to play on and that he had prepared for. In the Starleague he couldn't hide behind his team anymore and it showed that Flash was clearly two steps ahead of him. The second reason why you can't compare Jaedong and Bisu right now is that Jaedong is playing the Starcraft of his life. I don't know if you have seen his games recently but they are... incredible. Go watch how he played against Baby and then watch other zergs play zvt. Try to find one game were the zerg snipes drop ships as well as Jaedong did in that game. Jaedong killed 60 marines with scourge ffs. This is not how it works, anyone can lose to a 5 pool. I repeat: watch the games. The level of play people show in games is a very important indicator of how good some one is for the moment (more so than the size of the stadium). I don't think you have been watching the games you are talking about or you wouldn't talk so much about that game vs Great that was obviously a fluke (for reasons that Mortality already has pointed out). This is not to say that Jaedong is necessarily more skilled than Bisu in an absolute sens. It is just this month. Maybe Jaedongs hot streak ends next month and Bisu takes over, but now you can't really compare them. That's definitely not true for KT. Remember, the last time they met, Stats AKed SKT, so I would think Bisu was the one that prepared more (and he did, at the expense of MSL practice time according to his interview.) | ||
|
hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
 Although it's not because by that logic bisu wouldn't be #1 (believe it or not, I'm not a bisu fan), but because it not only involves going back into the past at least 7 months, which almost defeats the purpose of a monthly ranking. But as I said, you make a lot of sense.But he did do enough to overcome flash. Right? | ||
|
saltywet
Hong Kong1316 Posts
On May 04 2011 11:23 hacklebeast wrote: (believe it or not, I'm not a bisu fan) But he did do enough to overcome flash. Right? uh yeah, i dont really believe you. although bisu did beat jaedong and flash this month, most people on TL would believe that in a bo5 on pretty even maps with even amounts of preparation, jaedong and flash destroy bisu. most people who believe otherwise has an SKT symbol under their signature | ||
|
Yxes2211
United States1587 Posts
| ||
|
Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
Just kidding. Well, I don't know if he should be on the PR, but not just because of that game of course.  | ||
|
DarkMatter_
Canada1774 Posts
On May 04 2011 12:53 Yxes2211 wrote: Actually, I wouldn't know what to expect from a Bisu vs. JD Bo5. Bisu just broke 70% PvZ and Jaedong hasn't been playing much ZvP. So I can't make a judgment call on that. Yeah, it's really hard to say. Bisu's PvZ has been looking almost unstoppable and has beaten JD convincingly several times now. However in proleague, Jaedong is always at a disadvantage since he needs to prepare for Bisu, Fantasy, and the zerg snipers. Jaedong does much better in individual leagues whereas Bisu hasn't been able to accomplish anything in individual leagues since forever. It's really hard to predict who's going to win. | ||
|
probano
Philippines16 Posts
| ||
| ||
