|
On May 04 2011 07:08 Mortality wrote:This isn't just nostalgia. Any old schooler (provided he doesn't have an attitude like Idra) will tell you that Garimto was one of the smartest players to have ever played this game. That's what made things so frustrating for him: this is a STRATEGY game after all, but when you live in an era of standardized strategies (that have become standard based in large part on YOU) and you find yourself losing simply because your opponents are better at building more units...
I agree that I'm looking at this through modern eyes.
And to be honest, it does sound a lot like nostalgia. I didn't keep up with the scene, as it were (TL scared me off for some reason), but I watched professional games starting back in 2001 or 2002 whenever it was that replays were available (and were much more readily available than they are today), and continued watching StarCraft through around 2005 - 06-ish. I missed most of Savior's revolution in how the game was understood, when I started watching again in 2008, but since it had been so long since I had watched those games, I didn't really notice that these players were necessarily playing better - in terms of, yes, timing, mechanics, etc. - until I saw the OSL Finals VODs topic and went back and watched them. It was a real eye-opener in terms of how much the game had changed, and I could see how the difference before and after Boxer in terms of how people were microing, how iloveoov and Nada caused something of a macro revolution that made Boxer-esque one-base play almost obsolete, how Nada's mechanics created a new standard, how Savior exploited timing windows in a way that changed how the game was approached and helped give him his nickname.
And I'm not really sure saying that Garimto lost simply because his opponents were better at building more units is fair to his opponents. He lost because his opponents were better at playing the game; part of the game includes the ability to macro. I wouldn't be surprised if he were also losing because of inferior micro (another part of the game), and a relative dearth of practice compared to when he was at his peak. I don't want to discount understanding the game as important (and it's obviously possible to comprehend a plan better than you are able to execute it, or discount the importance of the players who came up with these innovations in the first place, but I can't agree with the notion that it's simply "different." Players today play the game better than their predecessors did before. I don't think the fact that they're playing in a post-macro revolution, post-timing windows world takes away from that.
|
April 2011 IMHO:
1.  Jaedong 8-2 + Show Spoiler +WIN: s2, Fantasy, Fantasy, Sea, Flash, Saint, Reality, Baby
LOSS: Bisu, Great  Flash 5-3 + Show Spoiler +WIN: s2, Bisu, Bisu, Bisu, Really
LOSS: Bisu, Jaedong, Best, Jaedong  Bisu 6-3 + Show Spoiler +WIN: Jaedong, Flash, Sea, M18M, GGaemo, Crazy-Hydra, Hyun
LOSS: Flash, Flash, Flash WIN: Light, GGaemo, Light, Saint, Stork
LOSS: WIN: Free, Stork, Sun, Jangbi
LOSS: Stork, Stork WIN: Fantasy, Fantasy, Leta, Roro
LOSS: Calm, Leta WIN: Perfectman, Action, Crazy-Hydra, Stats, Perfective
LOSS: Jaedong, Flash, Iris, Zerg[kal] WIN: Tyson, GGaemo, Baby, Mind
LOSS: Hydra, Hydra WIN: Hyun, Ruby, Grape, Action
LOSS: Ruby, Hyun WIN: s2, Turn, Great
LOSS: -
BTW, Leta was 8-3 in March, beating Bisu, Baby and Soulkey in the process. Not PR worthy?
|
On May 04 2011 18:28 popzags wrote:April 2011 IMHO: 1. Jaedong 8-2 + Show Spoiler +WIN: s2, Fantasy, Fantasy, Sea, Flash, Saint, Reality, Baby
LOSS: Bisu, Great 2. Flash 5-3 + Show Spoiler +WIN: s2, Bisu, Bisu, Bisu, Really
LOSS: Bisu, Jaedong, Best, Jaedong 3. Bisu 6-3 + Show Spoiler +WIN: Jaedong, Flash, Sea, M18M, GGaemo, Crazy-Hydra, Hyun
LOSS: Flash, Flash, Flash 4. Hydra 5-0 + Show Spoiler +WIN: Light, GGaemo, Light, Saint, Stork
LOSS: 5. Firebathero 4-2 + Show Spoiler +WIN: Free, Stork, Sun, Jangbi
LOSS: Stork, Stork 6. Soulkey 4-2 + Show Spoiler +WIN: Fantasy, Fantasy, Leta, Roro
LOSS: Calm, Leta 7. s2 5-4 + Show Spoiler +WIN: Perfectman, Action, Crazy-Hydra, Stats, Perfective
LOSS: Jaedong, Flash, Iris, Zerg[kal] 8. Light 4-2 + Show Spoiler +WIN: Tyson, GGaemo, Baby, Mind
LOSS: Hydra, Hydra 9. Horang2 4-2 + Show Spoiler +WIN: Hyun, Ruby, Grape, Action
LOSS: Ruby, Hyun 10. Iris 3-0 + Show Spoiler +WIN: s2, Turn, Great
LOSS: - BTW, Leta was 8-3 in March, beating Bisu, Baby and Soulkey in the process. Not PR worthy?
While I agree Flash should be over Bisu after the bashing he delivered Bisu in the MSL I really don't think you can count the all-star game where they off-raced in your statistics.
Also you are ignoring the fact that Hydra is on a 3 loss streak, we are counting the games since May like Flamewheel said previously.
Actually most of your stats are weird, you say FBH beat Stork which he didn't, you count Flash losing to Jaedong twice, but only count Jaedong winning against Flash once, you count FBH beating by.sun in march but don't count the win against Jaehoon the same day, etc.
|
On May 04 2011 08:47 hacklebeast wrote:
There are two things I can't wrap my head around:
2. I would love some one to make an argument as to why MSL Ro32 should be weighted more heavily than WL playoffs should. Here is what I see: Finals has a special bigger stadium with bleachers full of people, Ro32 has the normal stadium. When Bisu won he put on a new shirt announcing his victory and hoisted a cup into the air, JD bowed and walked back stage. Ro32 had the three best players in the world and sea, WL playoffs had the best three, along with fantasy, stats, and leta (if you don't want to include players that Bisu didn't play in playoffs, I don't see why we should include bisu as a part of that MSL group when talking about how hard it was for JD). In playoffs, players had a week to prepare for each set, in Ro32 all of the games were played the same day, and players had about 2-4 days to prepare. JD dominated his opponents (in Ro32), Bisu dominated his opponents (in playoffs). Why is the Ro32 more important?
The reason why the MSL RO32 should count more than WL playoffs is twofold.
First, WL playoffs is a team event. Oz and KT are incredibly sporadic, sometimes the teams play well sometimes they play awful, JD and Flash are literally the only 2 you know will play well on those teams. Bisu has a deep team, he can sit back and play on the map he wants to snipe these players.
Second, Bisu has yet again exited early from the only relevant individual league. I think almost everyone here will give Bisu an easier time considering group D's makeup however, the result is the same. There will be no Bisu in any BOX series. I think that until Bisu can make a SL semifinal I have a hard time justifying why he should be in the top 2.
|
On May 04 2011 20:24 revy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 08:47 hacklebeast wrote:
There are two things I can't wrap my head around:
2. I would love some one to make an argument as to why MSL Ro32 should be weighted more heavily than WL playoffs should. Here is what I see: Finals has a special bigger stadium with bleachers full of people, Ro32 has the normal stadium. When Bisu won he put on a new shirt announcing his victory and hoisted a cup into the air, JD bowed and walked back stage. Ro32 had the three best players in the world and sea, WL playoffs had the best three, along with fantasy, stats, and leta (if you don't want to include players that Bisu didn't play in playoffs, I don't see why we should include bisu as a part of that MSL group when talking about how hard it was for JD). In playoffs, players had a week to prepare for each set, in Ro32 all of the games were played the same day, and players had about 2-4 days to prepare. JD dominated his opponents (in Ro32), Bisu dominated his opponents (in playoffs). Why is the Ro32 more important?
The reason why the MSL RO32 should count more than WL playoffs is twofold. First, WL playoffs is a team event. Oz and KT are incredibly sporadic, sometimes the teams play well sometimes they play awful, JD and Flash are literally the only 2 you know will play well on those teams. Bisu has a deep team, he can sit back and play on the map he wants to snipe these players. Second, Bisu has yet again exited early from the only relevant individual league. I think almost everyone here will give Bisu an easier time considering group D's makeup however, the result is the same. There will be no Bisu in any BOX series. I think that until Bisu can make a SL semifinal I have a hard time justifying why he should be in the top 2.
The team league playoffs are far more important than the ro32 in the MSL.
|
It's the WL playoffs though not overall Proleague playoffs which definitely would be more important. Bisu failing to get far yet again in an individual league is a pretty bad mark against him, and his points about Bisu actually having backup in his team is perfectly valid.
I think we should always analyze actual games instead of statistics like so many do. Bisu's WL play-off win was perfectly good (and not cheese like some suggest), but the game was basically decided from the beginning. So in the power rank, other than it was an important game, did it look that particularly powerful? In my opinion not really. It was a well practiced snipe and helped heavily by his team playing well enough to get Flash out early on Aztec.
Still though, except Jaedong no one else has a particularly dominating record either. Bisu would be second if it wasn't for the fact it's Flash that he lost to multiple times. Can't justify him ahead of Flash when he lost very convincingly more times than he won against him.
|
I think Jaedong is quite clear for #1 and he really deserves that (his ZvT is so beautiful right now).
Concerning Flash/Bisu for #2, I believe Flash deserves this spot. He had really bad month but still this month he is 2:1 against Bisu, so it would be quite weird to place Bisu #2. I am not saying that Bisu had bad month, just both Jaedong and Flash had better one. I wouldn't give so much for WL finals (honestly, it was more s2 winning and Bisu snipping "just" Flash than Bisu winning it for SKT).
|
On May 04 2011 18:28 popzags wrote:April 2011 IMHO: 1. Jaedong 8-2 + Show Spoiler +WIN: s2, Fantasy, Fantasy, Sea, Flash, Saint, Reality, Baby
LOSS: Bisu, Great 2. Flash 5-3 + Show Spoiler +WIN: s2, Bisu, Bisu, Bisu, Really
LOSS: Bisu, Jaedong, Best, Jaedong 3. Bisu 6-3 + Show Spoiler +WIN: Jaedong, Flash, Sea, M18M, GGaemo, Crazy-Hydra, Hyun
LOSS: Flash, Flash, Flash 4. Hydra 5-0 + Show Spoiler +WIN: Light, GGaemo, Light, Saint, Stork
LOSS: 5. Firebathero 4-2 + Show Spoiler +WIN: Free, Stork, Sun, Jangbi
LOSS: Stork, Stork 6. Soulkey 4-2 + Show Spoiler +WIN: Fantasy, Fantasy, Leta, Roro
LOSS: Calm, Leta 7. s2 5-4 + Show Spoiler +WIN: Perfectman, Action, Crazy-Hydra, Stats, Perfective
LOSS: Jaedong, Flash, Iris, Zerg[kal] 8. Light 4-2 + Show Spoiler +WIN: Tyson, GGaemo, Baby, Mind
LOSS: Hydra, Hydra 9. Horang2 4-2 + Show Spoiler +WIN: Hyun, Ruby, Grape, Action
LOSS: Ruby, Hyun 10. Iris 3-0 + Show Spoiler +WIN: s2, Turn, Great
LOSS: - BTW, Leta was 8-3 in March, beating Bisu, Baby and Soulkey in the process. Not PR worthy?
what is this ?? weird stats
all star should not be accounted for
|
On May 04 2011 20:46 luckybeni2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 20:24 revy wrote:On May 04 2011 08:47 hacklebeast wrote:
There are two things I can't wrap my head around:
2. I would love some one to make an argument as to why MSL Ro32 should be weighted more heavily than WL playoffs should. Here is what I see: Finals has a special bigger stadium with bleachers full of people, Ro32 has the normal stadium. When Bisu won he put on a new shirt announcing his victory and hoisted a cup into the air, JD bowed and walked back stage. Ro32 had the three best players in the world and sea, WL playoffs had the best three, along with fantasy, stats, and leta (if you don't want to include players that Bisu didn't play in playoffs, I don't see why we should include bisu as a part of that MSL group when talking about how hard it was for JD). In playoffs, players had a week to prepare for each set, in Ro32 all of the games were played the same day, and players had about 2-4 days to prepare. JD dominated his opponents (in Ro32), Bisu dominated his opponents (in playoffs). Why is the Ro32 more important?
The reason why the MSL RO32 should count more than WL playoffs is twofold. First, WL playoffs is a team event. Oz and KT are incredibly sporadic, sometimes the teams play well sometimes they play awful, JD and Flash are literally the only 2 you know will play well on those teams. Bisu has a deep team, he can sit back and play on the map he wants to snipe these players. Second, Bisu has yet again exited early from the only relevant individual league. I think almost everyone here will give Bisu an easier time considering group D's makeup however, the result is the same. There will be no Bisu in any BOX series. I think that until Bisu can make a SL semifinal I have a hard time justifying why he should be in the top 2. The team league playoffs are far more important than the ro32 in the MSL.
I believe one of the point he is trying to make, correct if I'm wrong, is that KT is more heavily dependent on Flash in the WL, while SKT has players like Best, Fantasy, and Bisu.
Bisu has a lighter load to carry, compared to Flash, when you consider that SKT has other players that can snipe Flash. Even with his lighter load, Bisu is unable to advance any further in the MSL, while Flash and Jaedong still can. That's what I took from his post.
|
On May 05 2011 05:46 ore0z wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 20:46 luckybeni2 wrote:On May 04 2011 20:24 revy wrote:On May 04 2011 08:47 hacklebeast wrote:
There are two things I can't wrap my head around:
2. I would love some one to make an argument as to why MSL Ro32 should be weighted more heavily than WL playoffs should. Here is what I see: Finals has a special bigger stadium with bleachers full of people, Ro32 has the normal stadium. When Bisu won he put on a new shirt announcing his victory and hoisted a cup into the air, JD bowed and walked back stage. Ro32 had the three best players in the world and sea, WL playoffs had the best three, along with fantasy, stats, and leta (if you don't want to include players that Bisu didn't play in playoffs, I don't see why we should include bisu as a part of that MSL group when talking about how hard it was for JD). In playoffs, players had a week to prepare for each set, in Ro32 all of the games were played the same day, and players had about 2-4 days to prepare. JD dominated his opponents (in Ro32), Bisu dominated his opponents (in playoffs). Why is the Ro32 more important?
The reason why the MSL RO32 should count more than WL playoffs is twofold. First, WL playoffs is a team event. Oz and KT are incredibly sporadic, sometimes the teams play well sometimes they play awful, JD and Flash are literally the only 2 you know will play well on those teams. Bisu has a deep team, he can sit back and play on the map he wants to snipe these players. Second, Bisu has yet again exited early from the only relevant individual league. I think almost everyone here will give Bisu an easier time considering group D's makeup however, the result is the same. There will be no Bisu in any BOX series. I think that until Bisu can make a SL semifinal I have a hard time justifying why he should be in the top 2. The team league playoffs are far more important than the ro32 in the MSL. I believe one of the point he is trying to make, correct if I'm wrong, is that KT is more heavily dependent on Flash in the WL, while SKT has players like Best, Fantasy, and Bisu. Bisu has a lighter load to carry, compared to Flash, when you consider that SKT has other players that can snipe Flash. Even with his lighter load, Bisu is unable to advance any further in the MSL, while Flash and Jaedong still can. That's what I took from his post.
In WL? You do realize, that Stats had higher number of victories (and losses) than Flash in WL?
KT isn't bad allways, they like, perform one half of the time (only Flash and Stats are somehow consistent at all time, CH, Action, barracks, tempest, perfective and violet (before cancer) has their time of grace).
Just some days they perform.. Some days.. They don't. Example of this is the difference between the vs STx, vs Hite and vs Oz matches.
One shows KT performing, other is KTFlashish ( I hate this term to the button of my heart), last is everybody being shaky which actually sums the team's performance up good.
|
As I see it the MSL Ro32 won't make your position, but failing in the Ro32 will break your PR. Also it's about the quality of the games. Bisu didn't look good in the MSL games vs Flash. Flash didn't look good vs Jaedong. Jaedong is looking fucking scary.
|
Doesn't the PR come out at the beginning of the month?? It's already the fifth.
|
On May 05 2011 09:31 jorge_the_awesome wrote:
Doesn't the PR come out at the beginning of the month?? It's already the fifth.
flamewheel had real life stuff that conflicted with the ranking, so he postponed it a week
|
I can't wait for flamewheel to make Jaedong #1. :D
and power rank used to be delayed something like 2-3 weeks lol. Those were the days before flamewheel...:O
|
United States10328 Posts
On May 05 2011 13:01 ReketSomething wrote:
I can't wait for flamewheel to make Jaedong #1. :D
and power rank used to be delayed something like 2-3 weeks lol. Those were the days before flamewheel...:O
the bygone days of fakesteve, when the world was somewhat young, all the women were strong, all the men were good-looking, and all the children were above average.
|
Ok, I don't know where to ask this but I haven't kept up with BW for a while. Did something happen to the OSL?
|
Yeah. What's up with the OSL? It's eerily silent.
|
Also only 19 ELO points separating JD and ELO #1.
|
On May 05 2011 22:55 Sight- wrote:
Ok, I don't know where to ask this but I haven't kept up with BW for a while. Did something happen to the OSL?
Yeah, it changed its format to allow for non-progamers to participate in open qualifiers all around the country. This means it'll take a lot longer for it to reach the stage where the "real" tournament beings (probably another month or so).
|
Jaedong is going to easily be #1 since he's the best player in the world, and that makes me happy. =)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
