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On April 24 2011 14:03 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Winning PL is important. The only thing important about WL for KT last year is that the team finally didn't choke in a "finals." And even that had no bearing on the actual season or the PL finals. It's not like by winning WL finals CJ suddenly became a shoe in or in any way more a favorite to win SPL that year, and that's the WHOLE POINT of the proleague regular season -- to see who wins the proleague post season. WL finals is cool but people put too much stake in it. I even said as much last year when KT won.
I think it is obvious that the players at least take WL very seriously. And the fans too, as you pointed out.
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On April 24 2011 08:00 hacklebeast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 17:17 TwoToneTerran wrote:
WL finals isn't a bigger stage than any MSL tournament set. Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 22:19 Holgerius wrote:
But this was different. The LR-thread for Group D has more pages than most Starleague finals. This was the ultimate group of death, and I honestly think Flash's 2-0 vs Bisu there means significantly more than Bisu's 1-0 vs Flash in WL. Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 15:30 Mortality wrote:
Eead the interviews of Jaedong and Flash. The players practiced as if much more were at stake than just a Ro32 group. To say that Bisu's victory over Flash in SWL -- a single game -- matters more than clawing his way past Flash in SL because it was a "higher stage" ignores the fact that Bisu knew that more was at stake than just advancing from his MSL group: to advance would automatically mean that one of his strongest competitors would be eliminated. Yes people are comparing WL to MSL. You misinterpreted the last part. It wasn't a matter of players. In terms of generic player X vs generic player Y, Player X was ahead the entire game. None of the games JD Flash or Bisu played this month were close, the winner won by a good margin in all of them was what I was trying to say. Because all of them were one sided, I think that equal amounts of power was shown. And Bisu gets a slight edge because he played better opponents.
Wait what? Are you seriously comparing a 1 gate forward expo snipe build on a 2:1 favored PvT map with TWO wins on even maps? What?
Watch the games between Bisu and Flash this month. One game is a prepared snipe build; the other two are Flash displaying why, again, he has 10x better TvP than Bisu has PvT, and why Bisu's game sense and decisionmaking in PvT are so, so suspect as soon as the game goes past the 10 minute mark.
The argument "Bisu prepared really hard for his match, and flash didn't, so it shouldn't count" confuses me. Maybe you could elaborate?(not to mention that it conflicts with people saying that everyone practiced more for MSL, so you have to explain why that is wrong as well...)
Edit in reference to mortality: Ok, so I should have used "most important achievement" instead of "what defines him". That's fine. The point stands about why WL finals is more inportant than MSL Ro32. And While a reverse all kill isnt as impressive as winning the final game. Flash going 2-1 isn't as impressive as hwasin going 2-0. It still isn't a perfect comparison, but I hope you can see through the minor issues it has.
I didn't dismiss MSL, but back to where I started on page 12, I just think that Bisu's 3-2 is against better opponents and on bigger stages is more impressive than flash's 3-2
Bisu's 3-2 against better opponents? Flash beat him twice, eliminating him out of the MSL, and if you read Bisu's interview after SKT vs. ACE, you'll see that Bisu cared about that just as much as winning WL. In fact, Bisu was pissed that Coach Park didn't help him at all for MSL... so pissed that he criticized his own coaches live on Korean TV.
Do you know what that also implies? It means that when Flash and Bisu play without coaching support, Flash beats Bisu. Also, it means that Bisu needs a fucking Oov snipe build to beat flash, so normally he can't win, and even lacks the confidence to do so. When Bisu himself goes into a game vs Flash fearing his TvP, who do you think has more power? Bisu? ROFL.
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On April 24 2011 14:38 _romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 08:00 hacklebeast wrote:On April 23 2011 17:17 TwoToneTerran wrote:
WL finals isn't a bigger stage than any MSL tournament set. On April 23 2011 22:19 Holgerius wrote:
But this was different. The LR-thread for Group D has more pages than most Starleague finals. This was the ultimate group of death, and I honestly think Flash's 2-0 vs Bisu there means significantly more than Bisu's 1-0 vs Flash in WL. On April 23 2011 15:30 Mortality wrote:
Eead the interviews of Jaedong and Flash. The players practiced as if much more were at stake than just a Ro32 group. To say that Bisu's victory over Flash in SWL -- a single game -- matters more than clawing his way past Flash in SL because it was a "higher stage" ignores the fact that Bisu knew that more was at stake than just advancing from his MSL group: to advance would automatically mean that one of his strongest competitors would be eliminated. Yes people are comparing WL to MSL. You misinterpreted the last part. It wasn't a matter of players. In terms of generic player X vs generic player Y, Player X was ahead the entire game. None of the games JD Flash or Bisu played this month were close, the winner won by a good margin in all of them was what I was trying to say. Because all of them were one sided, I think that equal amounts of power was shown. And Bisu gets a slight edge because he played better opponents. Wait what? Are you seriously comparing a 1 gate forward expo snipe build on a 2:1 favored PvT map with TWO wins on even maps? What? Watch the games between Bisu and Flash this month. One game is a prepared snipe build; the other two are Flash displaying why, again, he has 10x better TvP than Bisu has PvT, and why Bisu's game sense and decisionmaking in PvT are so, so suspect as soon as the game goes past the 10 minute mark. Show nested quote +
The argument "Bisu prepared really hard for his match, and flash didn't, so it shouldn't count" confuses me. Maybe you could elaborate?(not to mention that it conflicts with people saying that everyone practiced more for MSL, so you have to explain why that is wrong as well...)
Edit in reference to mortality: Ok, so I should have used "most important achievement" instead of "what defines him". That's fine. The point stands about why WL finals is more inportant than MSL Ro32. And While a reverse all kill isnt as impressive as winning the final game. Flash going 2-1 isn't as impressive as hwasin going 2-0. It still isn't a perfect comparison, but I hope you can see through the minor issues it has.
I didn't dismiss MSL, but back to where I started on page 12, I just think that Bisu's 3-2 is against better opponents and on bigger stages is more impressive than flash's 3-2
Bisu's 3-2 against better opponents? Flash beat him twice, eliminating him out of the MSL, and if you read Bisu's interview after SKT vs. ACE, you'll see that Bisu cared about that just as much as winning WL. In fact, Bisu was pissed that Coach Park didn't help him at all for MSL... so pissed that he criticized his own coaches live on Korean TV. Do you know what that also implies? It means that when Flash and Bisu play without coaching support, Flash beats Bisu. Also, it means that Bisu needs a fucking Oov snipe build to beat flash, so normally he can't win, and even lacks the confidence to do so. When Bisu himself goes into a game vs Flash fearing his TvP, who do you think has more power? Bisu? ROFL.
I don't care very much for this Bisu vs Flash debate but please don't twist that interview for your own Bisu hating agenda...
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On April 24 2011 14:00 flamewheel wrote:
At least you guys agree that Jaedong should be #1.
Right?
Right?
When I first posted my top 3 order I didn't realize that there would actually be a number of PL games to be played. Technically JD could drop if he flubs it hard. Unlikely, but possible nonetheless.
Edit: And apparentl JD lost vs Great but I don't know the details...
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Canada2480 Posts
On April 24 2011 14:00 flamewheel wrote:
At least you guys agree that Jaedong should be #1.
Right?
Right?
soulkey should be number 1
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On April 24 2011 14:57 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 14:00 flamewheel wrote:
At least you guys agree that Jaedong should be #1.
Right?
Right? When I first posted my top 3 order I didn't realize that there would actually be a number of PL games to be played. Technically JD could drop if he flubs it hard. Unlikely, but possible nonetheless. Edit: And apparentl JD lost vs Great but I don't know the details...
Spoiler for the match
+ Show Spoiler +should've had a BO advantage, but bad scouting pattern turned it into a disadvantage
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On April 24 2011 14:57 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 14:00 flamewheel wrote:
At least you guys agree that Jaedong should be #1.
Right?
Right? Edit: And apparentl JD lost vs Great but I don't know the details...
JD 9pool (lair first) vs 12hatch on big 4 player map, Overlord scouts wrong, Greats Overlord scouts an unexpected pattern for JD so he doesn't see it in time (is explained in th LR thread), lings run to the wrong base, game over.
Would have been way too easy if JD just kept on winning this month 
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JD shouldn't drop for losing that game. The only way he's getting passed up is if Bisu or Flash do something amazing in Kt vs SKT, not for losing a bum ZvZ.
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I feel that Mind has been playing quite well recently, it's a shame he hasn't had more games in April.
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On April 24 2011 15:18 TwoToneTerran wrote:
JD shouldn't drop for losing that game. The only way he's getting passed up is if Bisu or Flash do something amazing in Kt vs SKT, not for losing a bum ZvZ.
Why should a specific race be exempt from their own mirror matchup? A 9pool vs 12 hatch win would be argued for his ranking had he won it but not when he loses?
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On April 22 2011 03:32 Mortality wrote:
1. JD
2. Flash - back in January/February during WL Flash was looking basically unbeatable and the only mark against him was his piss-poor December performance. In March I commented that Flash looked maybe a bit more beatable than before, but he was still the obvious candidate for #1. Right now he's still a strong, solid player, but he was not the best player last month.
3. Bisu - Under other circumstances he could have been #2 but I think that Flash proved that Bisu's win on Aztec was just one game.
4. Fantasy - learn how to overcome Soulkey please. I'll admit that Soulkey is a player with a lot of ability (even if he doesn't always show it), but not so much that he should be 6-1 against you. However, there is no doubt in my mind of Fanta's ability, nor of his hotness. Soulkey stepped up for the win rather than Fanta stepping down.
Edit: Also PR worthy IMO but I'm not going to bother ranking: Stork, Zero (statistics do not do justice to how solid he is right now), Hydra (his MSL gold was not a fluke), Light (with all new and improved TvP!).
And possibly: Mind (currently a bit of a dark horse... producing solid results lately without attracting attention), Leta (a couple months ago on the worst loss streak of his career, but solid play lately, 8-2 in his last 10 and I don't know how he managed to get away with 14cc vs 9hatch ling rush and then AGAIN vs 4pool).
Hard/impossible to rank: Baby has not played at all this month even though he's been so strong lately. Stats only played 1 game (loss to s2 on Zerg haven Icarus). Sea had the bad luck of being in group D.
CBNC: Soulkey: want on rank? Show us more than just 2 good games. FBH: bad luck to face Stork twice.
Glad I called Mind. Wow the way he man handled Classic. CBNC might be too low for Soulkey...
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On April 24 2011 15:18 TwoToneTerran wrote:
JD shouldn't drop for losing that game. The only way he's getting passed up is if Bisu or Flash do something amazing in Kt vs SKT, not for losing a bum ZvZ.
I think JD has lost every single 9pool he has done in PL this year. Clearly he hasn't learned anything and this does reflect negatively on him. He got super unlucky in this game but he just shouldn't have done a 9pool in the first place. I'd rather he retake #1 with brilliant play all around than with Bisu and Flash failing harder. But I guess if Bisu and Flash lose to random zergs too in their PL games...
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On April 24 2011 15:48 kuroshiroi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 15:18 TwoToneTerran wrote:
JD shouldn't drop for losing that game. The only way he's getting passed up is if Bisu or Flash do something amazing in Kt vs SKT, not for losing a bum ZvZ. I think JD has lost every single 9pool he has done in PL this year. Clearly he hasn't learned anything and this does reflect negatively on him. He got super unlucky in this game but he just shouldn't have done a 9pool in the first place. I'd rather he retake #1 with brilliant play all around than with Bisu and Flash failing harder. But I guess if Bisu and Flash lose to random zergs too in their PL games...
It's actually something that's been puzzling me this season. I've been wondering why Jaedong has been going 9pool so often nowadays, especially since it seems like it doesn't work that well anymore.
Anyone have a theory as to why he's been going 9 pool all the time? Last season he had a period where he kept going 12 hatch.
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1: Jaedong
2: Flash
2.0001: Bisu
4-10: everyone else
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On April 24 2011 15:39 Evs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 15:18 TwoToneTerran wrote:
JD shouldn't drop for losing that game. The only way he's getting passed up is if Bisu or Flash do something amazing in Kt vs SKT, not for losing a bum ZvZ. Why should a specific race be exempt from their own mirror matchup? A 9pool vs 12 hatch win would be argued for his ranking had he won it but not when he loses?
He's not exempt, but I'd say the same for Flash or Bisu losing a "meh" game if they were the clear #1. I don't think that loss was bad enough to take away his #1 spot.
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Jaedong, Flash, Stork/hydra, Bisu, Soulkey, Hydra/stork, fantasy, zero, leta, mind.
I would type more if the iPhone keyboard is less retarded
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This month PR is tough to write. I guess it will depend on KT vs SKT whether Bisu or JD will be #1.
All three players had a good month and all three players had some loses.
Bisu had two loses both against Flash (but also wins against Flash and JD in SWL PO and 2-0ed in PL yesterday)
JD has two loses this month, one against great and another against Bisu (but an extreme dominant win against Flash and he finished group D with 2-0...)
Flash had two loses this month, on against Bisu and another against JD.
All three players had games where we have to gave credit to them. I think if Bisu pulls out the win for SKT against KT he deserves to be #1, since JD has done "nothing" this month but beating Flash and Sea once. If Bisu loses, then it is different, then Bisu does not deserves the #1 since Flash clearly shows who's the boss and if they don't face each other and Bisu loses to some other players, then we can start another discussion since JD lost too great and it does not seem relevant at all. So i would rank
if Bisu pulls out the win for SKT
1. B
2. J
3. F
if he's not and Flash wins over Bisu
1. J
2. F
3. B
if he's not and losing to another player but Flash
1. J
2. B
3. F
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We are maybe interpreting the games in the group of Death differently, but I feel that there is no way Bisu can be over Flash. Yes Bisu had more success this month - probably - because he won very important games in winner's league. But he is not 'hotter' than Flash and I think every one would bet on Flash to win if they played now. It looked like Flash was the far superior player of the two in group D: Bisu got a good advantage in both games (in the first game more or less for free) and then Flash just won by playing a lot better than Bisu, I feel. Thats why I think the order should be Jaedong-Flash-Bisu. If Bisu has to be ranked higher it would be Flash-Bisu-Jaedong, but I feel that would be incorrect because Jaedong is really looking hot right now in my oppinion: I don't even remember last time some one beat Flash as dominantly as Jaedong did this month, it has probably not happenend since the Power outage MSL.
That being said, Bisu could show that he just had a bad day I guess when SKT plays KT tomorrow.
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The last time a zerg did it was Effort in that no lurker game. The last time someone dominated Flash was Baby vs Flash where baby did that crazy proxy fac play.
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Why do people keep on saying Bisu had an advantage in the last game of the MSL group? He was at a disadvantage from the very beginning when Flash got away with a Rax-CC, and got even further behind when Flash got his quick 3rd uncontested and fell far behind when he started losing probes to vults. That game wasnt really close, even tho it might have looked that way after Bisus first 2 great pushbreaks, but the fact is Flash always had a shitload of tanks left when the stasis finished with superior upgrades + a map with easy access to more easily defend able expos. Bisu could obviously have had a chance if he didnt lose all his army at 6, but the game was in Flashs favor even if he hadnt lost it all.
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EPT
