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lol at the kt fans saying that WL finals is less important than an MSL Ro32 group.
Can you list how all of the games went in the last group of death (FBH, hwasin, flash, JD)? Can you list how the games went in the OZ vs CJ WL finals from the same year? A lot more people know that skyhigh reverse all killed than hwasin 2-0 ed the group. That reverse all kill defines skyhigh, no one cares about hwasin. If bisu wins the ace game in the WL playoffs for the next five years, it will be something impressive, and will add to his legacy. No one cares if flash makes it to the Ro16 in the next 5 MSLs.
Bisu outclassed his WL opponents. And he went very standard vs jaedong. They were sound victories, I challenge you to find a point in either of those games where you can say "I think bisu can't win this."
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On April 24 2011 04:43 hacklebeast wrote:
lol at the kt fans saying that WL finals is less important than an MSL Ro32 group.
Can you list how all of the games went in the last group of death (FBH, hwasin, flash, JD)? Can you list how the games went in the OZ vs CJ WL finals from the same year? A lot more people know that skyhigh reverse all killed than hwasin 2-0 ed the group. That reverse all kill defines skyhigh, no one cares about hwasin. If bisu wins the ace game in the WL playoffs for the next five years, it will be something impressive, and will add to his legacy. No one cares if flash makes it to the Ro16 in the next 5 MSLs.
Bisu outclassed his WL opponents. And he went very standard vs jaedong. They were sound victories, I challenge you to find a point in either of those games where you can say "I think bisu can't win this."
![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1760359/bisu.png)
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Beastie, you may believe what you want regarding how the PR should reflect "importance", but then wouldn't it be called the "importance rank" rather than the "power rank"?
On April 24 2011 04:43 hacklebeast wrote:
lol at the kt fans saying that WL finals is less important than an MSL Ro32 group.
No one is saying trying to compare the WL finals with an MSL group. The real question here is who was the better player this month?
Can you list how all of the games went in the last group of death (FBH, hwasin, flash, JD)? Can you list how the games went in the OZ vs CJ WL finals from the same year? A lot more people know that skyhigh reverse all killed than hwasin 2-0 ed the group. That reverse all kill defines skyhigh, no one cares about hwasin. If bisu wins the ace game in the WL playoffs for the next five years, it will be something impressive, and will add to his legacy. No one cares if flash makes it to the Ro16 in the next 5 MSLs.
Okay great, WL playoffs does matter (although I would argue back and say that Bisu's win on Aztec was the product of a very favorable map constraining his opponent into a predictable build which then Oov and the entire SKT coaching staff probably spent days preparing a counter for).
But does it matter for Power Rank? No, because Bisu did not display power in this month. The one game he won, he basically won because of Aztec, and then when the maps were balanced, he rolled over and died TWICE and condemned his own fanbase to watching him crash out of YET ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL LEAGUE LOLOLOL
Bisu outclassed his WL opponents. And he went very standard vs jaedong. They were sound victories, I challenge you to find a point in either of those games where you can say "I think bisu can't win this."
No one says "Bisu can't win this"; people say that it is not likely that Bisu will beat Flash on a 50:50 TvP map. Does that make sense?
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The reverse all kill "defines" (this isn't entirely true, but I'll run with it for a sec) SkyHigh because it was a reverse all-kill in the SWL finals. The Flash vs Bisu match wasn't even an ace game. Also, people have noticed that SkyHigh always seems to step up his game in post season events (11-2 record in post season matches). However, what's really defined SkyHigh's career is his TvT. His TvT is the only reason people remember him. The SWL finals are not trivial, but you're way overstating their importance.
As for Bisu out-classing his opponents, he turned around and got out-classed in return by Flash during MSL. And one might be inclined to point out that in SWL Bisu was able to snipe his opponents on the maps of his choosing.
Impressive as he's been, he hasn't surpassed Flash in "hotness." Individual league results cannot be dismissed.
Edit: People with KT tags please stop arguing. I'm seeing some pretty ridiculous shit get spewed out. This is becoming a case of Don't Shoot the Message. To give an example, Fortress is not favorable towards P, it's just a strong map for Bisu in particular. And he didn't win vs Flash on Aztec because of Aztec but because he played a better game of Starcraft that particular game. Jut like how Flash did not beat Bisu because of map balance in MSL but because he played better Starcraft that day. This whole Flash vs Bisu thing is coming down to fanboyism. I don't think I want to bother taking part in this discussion anymore if it's going to continue in this direction.
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On April 23 2011 17:17 TwoToneTerran wrote:
WL finals isn't a bigger stage than any MSL tournament set.
On April 23 2011 22:19 Holgerius wrote:
But this was different. The LR-thread for Group D has more pages than most Starleague finals. This was the ultimate group of death, and I honestly think Flash's 2-0 vs Bisu there means significantly more than Bisu's 1-0 vs Flash in WL.
On April 23 2011 15:30 Mortality wrote:
Eead the interviews of Jaedong and Flash. The players practiced as if much more were at stake than just a Ro32 group. To say that Bisu's victory over Flash in SWL -- a single game -- matters more than clawing his way past Flash in SL because it was a "higher stage" ignores the fact that Bisu knew that more was at stake than just advancing from his MSL group: to advance would automatically mean that one of his strongest competitors would be eliminated.
Yes people are comparing WL to MSL.
You misinterpreted the last part. It wasn't a matter of players. In terms of generic player X vs generic player Y, Player X was ahead the entire game. None of the games JD Flash or Bisu played this month were close, the winner won by a good margin in all of them was what I was trying to say. Because all of them were one sided, I think that equal amounts of power was shown. And Bisu gets a slight edge because he played better opponents.
The argument "Bisu prepared really hard for his match, and flash didn't, so it shouldn't count" confuses me. Maybe you could elaborate?(not to mention that it conflicts with people saying that everyone practiced more for MSL, so you have to explain why that is wrong as well...)
Edit in reference to mortality: Ok, so I should have used "most important achievement" instead of "what defines him". That's fine. The point stands about why WL finals is more inportant than MSL Ro32. And While a reverse all kill isnt as impressive as winning the final game. Flash going 2-1 isn't as impressive as hwasin going 2-0. It still isn't a perfect comparison, but I hope you can see through the minor issues it has.
I didn't dismiss MSL, but back to where I started on page 12, I just think that Bisu's 3-2 is against better opponents and on bigger stages is more impressive than flash's 3-2
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On April 24 2011 04:43 hacklebeast wrote:
lol at the kt fans saying that WL finals is less important than an MSL Ro32 group.
Can you list how all of the games went in the last group of death (FBH, hwasin, flash, JD)? Can you list how the games went in the OZ vs CJ WL finals from the same year? A lot more people know that skyhigh reverse all killed than hwasin 2-0 ed the group. That reverse all kill defines skyhigh, no one cares about hwasin. If bisu wins the ace game in the WL playoffs for the next five years, it will be something impressive, and will add to his legacy. No one cares if flash makes it to the Ro16 in the next 5 MSLs.
Bisu outclassed his WL opponents. And he went very standard vs jaedong. They were sound victories, I challenge you to find a point in either of those games where you can say "I think bisu can't win this."
I agree that WL finals is more important but it says less about Bisu's skill when he can wait until Flash and Jaedong have to play on a hard map for their race where Bisu has prepared a specific build to counter them. That he can do because his team is so much stronger than Flash and Jaedong's teams are.
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On April 24 2011 08:00 hacklebeast wrote:
The argument "Bisu prepared really hard for his match, and flash didn't, so it shouldn't count" confuses me. Maybe you could elaborate?(not to mention that it conflicts with people saying that everyone practiced more for MSL, so you have to explain why that is wrong as well...)
Are you referring to me? Because I never said that. What I did say was that Bisu was able to face Flash (and JD) on the maps of his choosing since Bisu was sent as the sniper.
Edit: The only "better opponent" was facing Sea instead of facing s2. Flash was forced to play s2 because s2 3-killed his team. And Flash rolled him. I don't see how you can hold that against Flash. For a player like Flash who has already proven himself, facing a weaker line-up only really means something if he loses. His one weak opponent he defeated easily.
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On April 24 2011 08:07 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 08:00 hacklebeast wrote:
The argument "Bisu prepared really hard for his match, and flash didn't, so it shouldn't count" confuses me. Maybe you could elaborate?(not to mention that it conflicts with people saying that everyone practiced more for MSL, so you have to explain why that is wrong as well...)
Are you referring to me? Because I never said that. What I did say was that Bisu was able to face Flash (and JD) on the maps of his choosing since Bisu was sent as the sniper.
no it wasn't in reference to you, that was for romantic's 'although I would argue back and say that Bisu's win on Aztec was the product of a very favorable map constraining his opponent into a predictable build which then Oov and the entire SKT coaching staff probably spent days preparing a counter for"
edit: Yep. Flash had a weaker set of opponents, so he needed to go better than 3-2 to show he was better than bisu. It's not his fault (other than not winning more games in the finals, but i'm ignoring that) but that still isn't a reason to bump him up. Again, baby is a good player, and he couldn't control the fact he went 0-0, but we can't give him a spot because of what he probably would have done.
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Baby may get a chance to prove himself in SPL anyway, but personally I would CBNC him if he ended the month 0-0. After all, the reason he didn't play is he failed to make it past offline qualifiers (lost to Dear) in early March.
Hypothetical: Player A wins OSL and MSL in June and has win record over 90% from early April to end of June. In July player A does not play because his team has no games and because he's seeded for individual leagues. On the Aug 1 ranking, player A would not drop off the ranking. Unless someone else has been playing comparably good, player A would retain #1. This is the accepted view of PR, dating back to the 4/30/2007 ranking when Savior retained #3 rank despite going 0-2 over the course of April. And the only reason he dropped from rank #2 to rank #3 is that his replacement was NaDa (who had recently beaten Savior in OGN Masters and went 2-1 during that same month).
Now regarding Flash, you seem to have it backwards. He doesn't need to be bumped up. He is the one coming from on top. Bisu is the one who has to bump up and that's the entire point. You're right that Flash hasn't done anything that particular says he deserves to be "bumped" over Bisu, but conversely Bisu has done nothing to show that he deserves to be bumped over Flash. He may have the chance when SKT1 faces KT in SPL (on the 25th?), but if he does face Flash and he loses, then he cannot be ahead of Flash.
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On April 24 2011 07:54 Mortality wrote:
Impressive as he's been, he hasn't surpassed Flash in "hotness." Individual league results cannot be dismissed.
Really now? Where where you to argue how Flash's WL streak was enough to place him as #1 over the actual OSL and MSL champions of the past few months.
Individual league achievement has been downplayed for most of this year simply because it doesn't benefit Flash.
Now we have a bunch of people arguing that passing through the first step (r32, but he only won against Bisu a protoss while getting crushed by a zerg, Jaedong), is a sure fire ticket for him to rank better than someone who not only won against most team ace's to win a championship but did so against more diverse opponents (Jaedong as a Zerg, and Flash as a terran)
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Japan11945 Posts
On April 24 2011 00:26 bluetrolls wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 00:10 gen.Sun wrote:
Also look at the games themselves. Bisu's wins in WL clearly looks like a one time strategy. Not legit IMO. Bisu's win was very legit. But it's a one-off trick. It's unlikely to work again and it's unlikely that we'll see a constant stream of different tricks. Group D results happen to prove this.
The strategy was not a one-time strategy, bisu stated that he already used this strategy before in (dunno how many times) a televised match(es). I think it is just a strategy that has limited use and can be easily countered.
Also, I'm always agreeing with Mortality's points, and I don't get why.
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On April 24 2011 09:33 Mortality wrote:
Baby may get a chance to prove himself in SPL anyway, but personally I would CBNC him if he ended the month 0-0. After all, the reason he didn't play is he failed to make it past offline qualifiers (lost to Dear) in early March.
Hypothetical: Player A wins OSL and MSL in June and has win record over 90% from early April to end of June. In July player A does not play because his team has no games and because he's seeded for individual leagues. On the Aug 1 ranking, player A would not drop off the ranking. Unless someone else has been playing comparably good, player A would retain #1. This is the accepted view of PR, dating back to the 4/30/2007 ranking when Savior retained #3 rank despite going 0-2 over the course of April. And the only reason he dropped from rank #2 to rank #3 is that his replacement was NaDa (who had recently beaten Savior in OGN Masters and went 2-1 during that same month).
Now regarding Flash, you seem to have it backwards. He doesn't need to be bumped up. He is the one coming from on top. Bisu is the one who has to bump up and that's the entire point. You're right that Flash hasn't done anything that particular says he deserves to be "bumped" over Bisu, but conversely Bisu has done nothing to show that he deserves to be bumped over Flash. He may have the chance when SKT1 faces KT in SPL (on the 25th?), but if he does face Flash and he loses, then he cannot be ahead of Flash.
I see where your coming from. We just have fundamentally different ideas about what the PR should be. Working of of your model, yes flash should be ahead of Bisu. Thinking about it, the PR looks more like what you describe than what I am anyway. I guess I just want it to be different.
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On April 24 2011 08:00 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 04:43 hacklebeast wrote:
lol at the kt fans saying that WL finals is less important than an MSL Ro32 group.
Can you list how all of the games went in the last group of death (FBH, hwasin, flash, JD)? Can you list how the games went in the OZ vs CJ WL finals from the same year? A lot more people know that skyhigh reverse all killed than hwasin 2-0 ed the group. That reverse all kill defines skyhigh, no one cares about hwasin. If bisu wins the ace game in the WL playoffs for the next five years, it will be something impressive, and will add to his legacy. No one cares if flash makes it to the Ro16 in the next 5 MSLs.
Bisu outclassed his WL opponents. And he went very standard vs jaedong. They were sound victories, I challenge you to find a point in either of those games where you can say "I think bisu can't win this." I agree that WL finals is more important but it says less about Bisu's skill when he can wait until Flash and Jaedong have to play on a hard map for their race where Bisu has prepared a specific build to counter them. That he can do because his team is so much stronger than Flash and Jaedong's teams are.
I don't think that applies to Jaedong, since Fortress is Zerg favored vs Protoss. (56% if you count only standard leagues, even more if you remove the 2 games Bisu won.)
Edit: should be even more, not less Zerg favored. lol
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On April 24 2011 10:36 Evs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 07:54 Mortality wrote:
Impressive as he's been, he hasn't surpassed Flash in "hotness." Individual league results cannot be dismissed.
Really now? Where where you to argue how Flash's WL streak was enough to place him as #1 over the actual OSL and MSL champions of the past few months. Individual league achievement has been downplayed for most of this year simply because it doesn't benefit Flash. Now we have a bunch of people arguing that passing through the first step (r32, but he only won against Bisu a protoss while getting crushed by a zerg, Jaedong), is a sure fire ticket for him to rank better than someone who not only won against most team ace's to win a championship but did so against more diverse opponents (Jaedong as a Zerg, and Flash as a terran)
You must not read these threads often. Individual league advancement has ALWAYS been one of the most significant factors in my own analysis.
I just love how I go from being bitched at by Flash fans to getting bitched at by his anti-fans depending on how he's doing and what kind of talk is going on. There are things I have changed my mind about on in the past, but league advancement is not one of them.
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On April 24 2011 12:16 renzy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 08:00 Elroi wrote:On April 24 2011 04:43 hacklebeast wrote:
lol at the kt fans saying that WL finals is less important than an MSL Ro32 group.
Can you list how all of the games went in the last group of death (FBH, hwasin, flash, JD)? Can you list how the games went in the OZ vs CJ WL finals from the same year? A lot more people know that skyhigh reverse all killed than hwasin 2-0 ed the group. That reverse all kill defines skyhigh, no one cares about hwasin. If bisu wins the ace game in the WL playoffs for the next five years, it will be something impressive, and will add to his legacy. No one cares if flash makes it to the Ro16 in the next 5 MSLs.
Bisu outclassed his WL opponents. And he went very standard vs jaedong. They were sound victories, I challenge you to find a point in either of those games where you can say "I think bisu can't win this." I agree that WL finals is more important but it says less about Bisu's skill when he can wait until Flash and Jaedong have to play on a hard map for their race where Bisu has prepared a specific build to counter them. That he can do because his team is so much stronger than Flash and Jaedong's teams are. I don't think that applies to Jaedong, since Fortress is Zerg favored vs Protoss. (56% if you count only standard leagues, even more if you remove the 2 games Bisu won.) Edit: should be even more, not less Zerg favored. lol
Ok, I'll say that differently: Bisu could chose which ever map he felt is more p-favored among four maps (since Jaedong had to RAK).
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If WL finals were important it'd have even the slightest bearing on the season. It wasn't important last year for KT and, while cool that skyhigh got that RAK, it wasn't that important then, either. No one really cares who won the WL finals whenever the actual post season gets started. The entire thing is an exhibition within the season itself because WL is really popular and gets good ratings. All credit to Bisu for outcheesing the cheese master one game but there's absolutely no way anyone is satisfied with Bisu dropping out of the Ro32 in yet another MSL.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
At least you guys agree that Jaedong should be #1.
Right?
Right?
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Winners league is very important. Stop being such a flash fan >< I remember all of you pestering the rest of TL the entire year about how Flash won PL and WL last season.
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Winning PL is important. The only thing important about WL for KT last year is that the team finally didn't choke in a "finals." And even that had no bearing on the actual season or the PL finals. It's not like by winning WL finals CJ suddenly became a shoe in or in any way more a favorite to win SPL that year, and that's the WHOLE POINT of the proleague regular season -- to see who wins the proleague post season. WL finals is cool but people put too much stake in it. I even said as much last year when KT won.
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On April 24 2011 14:00 flamewheel wrote:
At least you guys agree that Jaedong should be #1.
Right?
Right?
Of course.
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EPT
