|
On January 06 2010 09:41 excal wrote:
Last month:
Thankfully, the PR has never been only about results. Calm is a great player. As I've mentioned time and time again, it is his versatility that makes him stand out - from 2 hatch lurker to 5 hatch hydra, he can play the gamut of Zerg builds and do so in style. While a bad record this month does make him drop towards the bottom of the rank, it's difficult to think of many players who can beat him in a bo5 at the moment.
Bisu has had a bad month, yes, and he hasn't been doing so hot. But like you say, it's about overall strength and I don't think there is any protoss out there short of stork who could be argued to be on the same level. Movie? I love him, but he's not where CLOSE to his level. Kwanro? Get outta here.
That's the thing, I never get the impression that the power rank is solely about true skill lvl, as in, if 2 players had a BO5 with the same amount of practice, who would be the favourite (while obviously taking all 3 matchups into consideration), the way you quoted it from last month's PR.
If it was then I'd have to agree that Bisu (effort too of course) would have to be in the PR without a doubt, and I say that as someone who doesnt like Bisu. (But for the way PR has been done so far I agree with bisu not being in there)
Also Kwanro would have to disappear out of it imo.
But like I said, I never get the impression that thats how the PR is done, at least not as long as I have been following it (which isnt long)
|
I think Calm's game tonight exemplified why he was ranked so low.
Despite winning, he still played like shit.
|
On January 06 2010 13:45 ndralcasid wrote:
I think Calm's game tonight exemplified why he was ranked so low.
Despite winning, he still played like shit.
QFT
Calm is either Calm or Clam. I have no fate in him. He is just lucky that he keeps meeting shitty players or good players who just happen to play like shit that day and win with less shitty play. Either that, or he suddenly plays like a good player on random occasions. It's as if he enters mini-slumps everyday and return to form every other day.
In comparison, Zero played his matches like a S-class player on fire, except that he lost most of them. He deserves a better rank than Shine, except Shine is delivering the results that Zero failed to deliver.
Which brings up the question, is PR a measure of how powerful a player is this month, or is it a measure of just how successful a player is this month.
|
I enjoyed this PR 
I don't agree with every detail, but it's well-reasoned overall.
|
On January 06 2010 13:45 ndralcasid wrote:
I think Calm's game tonight exemplified why he was ranked so low.
Despite winning, he still played like shit.
Dude Calm is 28 - 8 in his last 36 ZvZs and lots of the wins are against the top zergs . He is currently the best ZvZer right now and it doesn't matter if he plays like shit against Yellow while winning .
There was no justification in placing the guy who is the current MSL champion got to the OSL semis from the OSL group of death as #1 seed and showing impressive games against the best player in the world , while still boosting an impressive record in PL , below Kwanro , Sea and Zero .
The arguments in the PR are "just ZvZ" , 2 hatch muta vs Pure on favourable ZvP maps and
in ZvT he solely criticizes Calm's late game management which based on his facts and arguments could be true , he probably has inferior late game management to Zero , Effort , Jaedong , but that doesn't change the fact that he also probably has the best early middle game in ZvT . Even Day[9] always mentions that he is "blown away" by how good Calm's build orders are and how good he is at taking bases without struggling . Starcraft is not just about the late game , i myself think that early and middle game are far more important , because you don't get to late game if you can't survive the early/middle game .
Now take a look at Stork at # 2 which i don't even argue about him , because he has done at least something this month . I will ignore the #1 PvZ it could be true , but there is no evidence that he is , 2 wins in PL against Zero is not enough for that claim .
Lets start with wins against Bisu and Best and put them right next to the "just ZvZ" . Calm has beaten Zero , Effort and Shine last month one of the best ZvZers right now and like i mentioned he is 28-8 in his last 36 ZvZ , this implicates that ZvZ has no value even thought it's by far the hardest MU in the game .
Lets move on to Stork's loses against Shine - the arguments Shine is a ZvP sniper , maps are imbalanced , shine used a semi - cheese to win , and the games were close . The only close game was game 2 which stork won . He barely was able to defend his third base in that game and have he lost it that would have been a reverse rape by Shine . Game 1 and 3 were not even remotely close . Just at 1 point Stork had the advantage in game 1 and that was barely 10 seconds advantage , a beautiful scarab in to fail shuttle snipe with the reaver . From that point on Shine was slowly but surely winning . Most part of the game shine had ~20 supply advantage over stork , cute storm drops were not geting him anywhere . The best definition of game 3 was rape .
Now lets put those arguments next to Calm's " He was only able to win while doing 2 - hatch mutas on imbalanced maps . "
I don't know how this works for protoss players , but all i see are STUPID excuses on why the protoss players lost and why the zerg players won . From reading the PR you would think that Stork moved from # 5 to # 2 because he got cheesed and lost and Calm moved down while he should have moved up this month because he cheesed a mediocre protoss and raped him and lost a set to the best player in the world . I guess geting a Bo loss from Flash's cheese doesn't do the same for JD .
Now honestly tell me from a neutral point of view you don't favoure any player or any race that this isn't the biggest BIAS you have seen in a PR and don't tell me to put on "the protoss's glasses " .
I'm not upset about the placements of the players , but rather the arguments behind them . Arguments like "just ZvZ" "He was only able to win because of 2 hat mutas " , " he got cheesed " " the maps are imbalanced " should never be used to justify placements of the players in a PR in the first place .
And also shit like " despite winning he played like trash " "ZvP is imbalanced" , with all my respect to protoss players i know you are upset that you can't win anything , but keep this insightful knowledge to yourselfs .
For months now in live report threads i've been reading this golden comments with also their favourite "gay build and gay player" i've tried not to reason with the angry mob , but now most of it is published in the PR .
Why not just say it " He was only able to win , because of gay Build " the way it's written in the PR it's basicly the same , but it's written in a mannered way .
I have nothing against Plexa he is a great writer and to protoss players in general , but i think i should write this letters in caps :
STORK LOSING TO CHEESE IS HIS OWN FAULT , PURE LOSING TO CHEESE IS HIS OWN FAULT . DON'T BLAME THE MAPS , MATCH-UPS , BUILD ORDERS , CHEESE ALL - IN BLAME THE PLAYER THAT LOST AND THEIR SKILLS !!!! A WIN IS A WIN NO MATTER WHAT HE DID IN THE GAME . WINNING WHILE PLAYING BAD MEANS THAT HE DIDN"T HAVE TO PLAY HIS BEST TO WIN AND THE OTHER PLAYER IS WAY WORSE . YOU DON"T PRAISE PLAYERS , BECAUSE THEY GOT CHEESED AND LOST , AND YOU SHOULDN'T TAKE AWAY FROM PLAYERS THAT ALREADY HAVE REPUTATIONS AS SOLID PLAYERS , BECAUSE THEY'VE CHEESED .
CAN SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW IS DOING A 2 -HAT MUTA BUILD = PLAYING BAD ?
|
On January 06 2010 02:43 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2010 16:17 Fenrax wrote:So to point out the weakness of your arguments: On January 03 2010 22:49 Plexa wrote:
Turning to Proleague, Jaedong probably has an edge over Stork. Not probably, Jaedong performed certainly better in Proleague. Good, we agree on that. So, do I get this right? JD is still in one more Starleague than Stork AND better in Proleague? While the only reason he is out of a Star League at all is because he was paired against the 2400 guy who just came up with a yet uncountered TvZ style and the second game with a brilliant cheese? What could Jaedong have done? He was better in Proleague than Stork and he was flawless in the MSL group. So, his opponents were not that impressive? What could he do about it? Nothing! (Ironically Stork on the other actually could have done something about it. Not 0-2ing in the MSL at the end of November and qualifying for the next round that is. But that was November, so it doesn't count). The only thing Jaedong could have done better this month would have been to beat Flash in a TvZ, which seems impossible like beating Usain Bolt in a 200m race. On the other hand Stork could have beaten Shine in the OSL, which seems much more possible. (Or, again, qualify for the Dezember MSL rounds and show a good performance there, but again I give you that Stork's Novemver losses don't count for Dezember). You forgot that he likes Pure ... On January 03 2010 22:49 Plexa wrote:
To try and force some separation between the two I concerned their November records. Both were impresssive. Jaedong had some key losses to crap zergs, while Stork has a really terrible end of november So you concerned November records? What really enrages me is this part: "JD had some key losses against crap Zergs" in November? What an incredible biased way to say things. How about saying it like THIS? Jaedong had ONLY 2 losses in all games in the whole month of November in which he also won the world Cyber games title while Stork ended the month with 4 losses in a row. So, I ask you, plexa, WHAT kind of November data gave Stork the edge? Losing 4x in a row right before the datat collection for PR Dezember began? Losing to JD in WCG finals? Losing twice as often as Jaedong in regular games in November? November and Dezember combined Stork was overall 15-8 while Jaedong was 19-5. And that is NOT including the games for Jaedongs WCG title. So, go ahead, tell me, what kind of November data did you use? Probably the unofficial one he turns to when the real data can`t support his claims, I heard apparently JD lost more games in practice than Stork during November\December! LOL On a serious note, your a great poster and a great guy Plexa, but you really fucked up hard on this PowerRank and its so glaringly apparent that your biased. You LOVE MBC check, You LOVE Kwanro check, you HATE Jaedong check. You then proceed to place Stork above JD and as Fenrax showed superbly in his post that was just wrong, no matter how you look at it. Also you claim non of his games are close except his losses, did his game3 vs SHine or the game vs Effort look very close to you? Then you put Sea at 7th despite him going only 5-3 the month and having no leagues to practice for. (Yeah 2 of his losses was vs good opponents, but the only good player he beat was JD the rest kinda sucks or at least are playing like trash lately, see Yarnc, Hero, FBH). Despite having players like Kal who went 10-3 for the month still in one league (note his PL performance was 5-3 the same as Sea, tho vs slightly weaker opponents, but he has yet dropped a game in MSL and had a bigger workload). Or Violet whos performed similar vs slightly worse opponents going 6-3 (but beating Sea himself) Then you have someone like Calm going 6-2 in PL vs probably stronger opponents than Sea while maintaining 11-5 with his 3 remaining losses coming from Flash. Now you give a reason for it, which in my opinion is just a load of crap. His game vs Piano he did not pull way ahead (He got in a good spot, but in no way a gamedeciding advantage), he had ruined his eco to do 2hatch lurkers which killed some MnM (which T will spew out lots of new ones anyway) a bunker and a scan. Then he proceeds to transition into a normal game which includes hive (So in essence your punishing him for not going some kind of all in that would have ended the game pre hive). Then he manages to coordinate a strong attack on Ts natural and shut it down for the rest of the game while still defending back home and you call this poor play??? Yeah the Fantasy game he played kind a sloppy, but not nearly as bad as everyone seem to think since things WILL look sloppy when there are battles going on and drops all over the place. Onto the Flash series I don`t even know what to say. He came closer than anyone else beating Flash this month. Yeah his mutamicro was a bit off in game 1 and 4 (tho I think this should be credited equally to Flash supreme Marine control as much as Calms "bad" mutamicro. Its not easy fighting perfectly positioned MnMs that is CONSTANTLY moving with mutas, and here you should notice how Flashs superb play always forced this to happen out in the open where he had plenty of room to maneuver while keeping his bases safe from harass. Game 2 and 3 you cover nicely. Here despite your bashing of his Hive play he comes within inches of going up 2-1 vs Flash in ZvT, this despite everyone else losing badly vs him. Onto game 4, here you once again bash his hiveplay, despite him never getting to use his hive since he died vs an insanely strong early timed push on close positions. Now you hold this AGAINST his ZvT??? He came closer to beating Flash than anyone else has come for the last 3 months.(No ZerOs game on ultimatum was not closer than the Fighting Spirit game). If anything this series was a testament to Calms ZvT skill, not against it. In fact after reading your analyzes of some of those games I begin to question if you even understand the matchup TvZ. After this you bash on his ZvP despite him pulling in wins consistently in that matchup and just like your wonderboy Shine he keeps on winning in the earlygame (but you never hold that against Shine do you? Once again being inconsistent) with not to much lategame play going on. He is 11-2 in his last 13 ZvPs and still you highly question his ZvP? Onto Kwanro, I have to admit I have barely watch any of his games the last month (Tho he was his cheesy self in the few I watched vs Stork\Light) so I can`t really comment on it. So his rank can be well deserved for all I know however since you choose to make an argument for him being as high I can guess he don`t deserve it since every other argument you have made for your placements have been either biased or just plain wrong. Then you have ZerO who dropped out of both leagues, lost ace matches and in general lost every time the stakes got high (granted vs hard opponents) gets to keep his 6th spot due to strong gameplay, while someone like Effort who also showed strong play in lots of his losses (like vs Free and Jangbi where he got into game deciding bad spots early both games but still showed excellent play through the late stages of the games.) gets punished for dropping out of leagues while for ZerO and Stork getting knocked out holds no consequence, again showing your inconsistent judging system. Both Effort and Calm played 15 and 16 games in December that is not much less than ZerO and that is double the amount of Sea and still Effort managed to get a 7-4 score in PL comparable to Seas with double the workload. His losses was vs slightly worse players than Seas but he his wins was vs better players. If all you can remember of Effort is his "embarrassing" loss vs Ruby you can`t have watched many of his games, also how is it embarrassing to lose vs Ruby (Who has been playing some sharp TvZ lately) on a heavily T>Z map? Hell Effort did not even play bad. Also note that I don`t really care about any of these players, as long as its not Bisu being discussed I consider myself to be totally neutral, and even fairly objective for a fanboy when Bisu is being discussed. I just felt really strongly about this list since I disagree with so much of it and feel that your highly inconsistent in the criteria you use to, especially the arguments you give for your decisions.
You forgot he likes Pure !
|
On January 06 2010 01:06 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2010 23:17 HuntingX wrote:
2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with. The single biggest issue I have with the "jaedong is still in the MSL" argument is that he's being spoonfed scrubs thanks to the retarded MSL bracket generation system. Let me know when Jaedong faces a real opponent in the MSL kkk
Is this even accurate? Seeding after Kespa ranks just starts with the quarter-finals. Of course JD was seeded in his Ro32 group (since he made Ro4 last year), and since he won that one, of course he got to play someone who finished second in his group (aka Firefist, could have been Ruby).
Until his series against stats (which hasn't finished yet), it has been a normal MSL for him. And in the Ro4 his opponent will either be Kal or Hwasin, so he will in fact face a real opponent then.
On another note, although I believe JD should have been second, I don't think he will win a SL this season, even if Flash wasn't the monster he is right now. I just feel that he does not have the dedication in his eyes that he had last year. Quite understandable after back-2-back OSLs. Even a tyrant needs to rest sometime.
|
On January 06 2010 20:38 Malinor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2010 01:06 Plexa wrote:On January 05 2010 23:17 HuntingX wrote:
2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with. The single biggest issue I have with the "jaedong is still in the MSL" argument is that he's being spoonfed scrubs thanks to the retarded MSL bracket generation system. Let me know when Jaedong faces a real opponent in the MSL kkk Is this even accurate? Seeding after Kespa ranks just starts with the quarter-finals. Of course JD was seeded in his Ro32 group (since he made Ro4 last year), and since he won that one, of course he got to play someone who finished second in his group (aka Firefist, could have been Ruby). Until his series against stats (which hasn't finished yet), it has been a normal MSL for him. And in the Ro4 his opponent will either be Kal or Hwasin, so he will in fact face a real opponent then. On another note, although I believe JD should have been second, I don't think he will win a SL this season, even if Flash wasn't the monster he is right now. I just feel that he does not have the dedication in his eyes that he had last year. Quite understandable after back-2-back OSLs. Even a tyrant needs to rest sometime.
I agree that Jaedong doesn't look as good right now , but if Flash get's eliminated i don't see who will stop him . With the exception of probably Light who is a solid TvZer still in a Bo5 would be tough for Light . A protoss player ? NO ; Kwanro ? doubt it in a BO 5 . I think Flash vs Jaedong on paper is a lock unless Best/Light cause the upsets ...
|
On January 06 2010 20:56 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2010 20:38 Malinor wrote:On January 06 2010 01:06 Plexa wrote:On January 05 2010 23:17 HuntingX wrote:
2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with. The single biggest issue I have with the "jaedong is still in the MSL" argument is that he's being spoonfed scrubs thanks to the retarded MSL bracket generation system. Let me know when Jaedong faces a real opponent in the MSL kkk Is this even accurate? Seeding after Kespa ranks just starts with the quarter-finals. Of course JD was seeded in his Ro32 group (since he made Ro4 last year), and since he won that one, of course he got to play someone who finished second in his group (aka Firefist, could have been Ruby). Until his series against stats (which hasn't finished yet), it has been a normal MSL for him. And in the Ro4 his opponent will either be Kal or Hwasin, so he will in fact face a real opponent then. On another note, although I believe JD should have been second, I don't think he will win a SL this season, even if Flash wasn't the monster he is right now. I just feel that he does not have the dedication in his eyes that he had last year. Quite understandable after back-2-back OSLs. Even a tyrant needs to rest sometime. I agree that Jaedong doesn't look as good right now , but if Flash get's eliminated i don't see who will stop him . With the exception of probably Light who is a solid TvZer still in a Bo5 would be tough for Light . A protoss player ? NO ; Kwanro ? doubt it in a BO 5 . I think Flash vs Jaedong on paper is a lock unless Best/Light cause the upsets ...
Flash has a tendency to drop to low caliber gamers, and he got to face Best, even if up 1 game, and JD. JD will stomp him, Best has a chanse too.
|
I actually really like this power rank, not much to dispute - though I'm considering arguing Shine>Jaedong just to see nerd heads explode (I don't really think that, I promise!)
I also fully endorse this alternate power rank:
1: Flash
2: Flash
3: Flash
4: Flash
5: Flash
6: Flash
7: Flash
8: Stork
9: Jaedong
10: Shine's grandma
I think it sums up the state of things pretty well.
|
On January 06 2010 19:17 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2010 13:45 ndralcasid wrote:
I think Calm's game tonight exemplified why he was ranked so low.
Despite winning, he still played like shit. long-winded post: + Show Spoiler +
Dude Calm is 28 - 8 in his last 36 ZvZs and lots of the wins are against the top zergs . He is currently the best ZvZer right now and it doesn't matter if he plays like shit against Yellow while winning .
There was no justification in placing the guy who is the current MSL champion got to the OSL semis from the OSL group of death as #1 seed and showing impressive games against the best player in the world , while still boosting an impressive record in PL , below Kwanro , Sea and Zero .
The arguments in the PR are "just ZvZ" , 2 hatch muta vs Pure on favourable ZvP maps and
in ZvT he solely criticizes Calm's late game management which based on his facts and arguments could be true , he probably has inferior late game management to Zero , Effort , Jaedong , but that doesn't change the fact that he also probably has the best early middle game in ZvT . Even Day[9] always mentions that he is "blown away" by how good Calm's build orders are and how good he is at taking bases without struggling . Starcraft is not just about the late game , i myself think that early and middle game are far more important , because you don't get to late game if you can't survive the early/middle game .
Now take a look at Stork at # 2 which i don't even argue about him , because he has done at least something this month . I will ignore the #1 PvZ it could be true , but there is no evidence that he is , 2 wins in PL against Zero is not enough for that claim .
Lets start with wins against Bisu and Best and put them right next to the "just ZvZ" . Calm has beaten Zero , Effort and Shine last month one of the best ZvZers right now and like i mentioned he is 28-8 in his last 36 ZvZ , this implicates that ZvZ has no value even thought it's by far the hardest MU in the game .
Lets move on to Stork's loses against Shine - the arguments Shine is a ZvP sniper , maps are imbalanced , shine used a semi - cheese to win , and the games were close . The only close game was game 2 which stork won . He barely was able to defend his third base in that game and have he lost it that would have been a reverse rape by Shine . Game 1 and 3 were not even remotely close . Just at 1 point Stork had the advantage in game 1 and that was barely 10 seconds advantage , a beautiful scarab in to fail shuttle snipe with the reaver . From that point on Shine was slowly but surely winning . Most part of the game shine had ~20 supply advantage over stork , cute storm drops were not geting him anywhere . The best definition of game 3 was rape .
Now lets put those arguments next to Calm's " He was only able to win while doing 2 - hatch mutas on imbalanced maps . "
I don't know how this works for protoss players , but all i see are STUPID excuses on why the protoss players lost and why the zerg players won . From reading the PR you would think that Stork moved from # 5 to # 2 because he got cheesed and lost and Calm moved down while he should have moved up this month because he cheesed a mediocre protoss and raped him and lost a set to the best player in the world . I guess geting a Bo loss from Flash's cheese doesn't do the same for JD .
Now honestly tell me from a neutral point of view you don't favoure any player or any race that this isn't the biggest BIAS you have seen in a PR and don't tell me to put on "the protoss's glasses " .
I'm not upset about the placements of the players , but rather the arguments behind them . Arguments like "just ZvZ" "He was only able to win because of 2 hat mutas " , " he got cheesed " " the maps are imbalanced " should never be used to justify placements of the players in a PR in the first place .
And also shit like " despite winning he played like trash " "ZvP is imbalanced" , with all my respect to protoss players i know you are upset that you can't win anything , but keep this insightful knowledge to yourselfs .
For months now in live report threads i've been reading this golden comments with also their favourite "gay build and gay player" i've tried not to reason with the angry mob , but now most of it is published in the PR .
Why not just say it " He was only able to win , because of gay Build " the way it's written in the PR it's basicly the same , but it's written in a mannered way .
I have nothing against Plexa he is a great writer and to protoss players in general , but i think i should write this letters in caps :
STORK LOSING TO CHEESE IS HIS OWN FAULT , PURE LOSING TO CHEESE IS HIS OWN FAULT . DON'T BLAME THE MAPS , MATCH-UPS , BUILD ORDERS , CHEESE ALL - IN BLAME THE PLAYER THAT LOST AND THEIR SKILLS !!!! A WIN IS A WIN NO MATTER WHAT HE DID IN THE GAME . WINNING WHILE PLAYING BAD MEANS THAT HE DIDN"T HAVE TO PLAY HIS BEST TO WIN AND THE OTHER PLAYER IS WAY WORSE . YOU DON"T PRAISE PLAYERS , BECAUSE THEY GOT CHEESED AND LOST , AND YOU SHOULDN'T TAKE AWAY FROM PLAYERS THAT ALREADY HAVE REPUTATIONS AS SOLID PLAYERS , BECAUSE THEY'VE CHEESED .
CAN SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW IS DOING A 2 -HAT MUTA BUILD = PLAYING BAD ?
There's no point in even trying to argue with it. Plexa writes off a player's success in an entire match-up by saying "it's ZvZ". How do you even discuss that? Hahah. It's obviously very arbitrary and anything goes.
|
On January 06 2010 19:17 raga4ka wrote:
STORK LOSING TO CHEESE IS HIS OWN FAULT , PURE LOSING TO CHEESE IS HIS OWN FAULT . DON'T BLAME THE MAPS , MATCH-UPS , BUILD ORDERS , CHEESE ALL - IN BLAME THE PLAYER THAT LOST AND THEIR SKILLS !!!! A WIN IS A WIN NO MATTER WHAT HE DID IN THE GAME .
Losing in a practically unwinnable game doesn't make any person look bad you know, especially el nino. Theres only 2 protoss that ever actually beat anyone on el nino, and they're arguably the best pvzers out there right now.
|
boohoo, i guess we should stop counting wins on protoss maps too
|
On January 07 2010 06:20 iamho wrote:
boohoo, i guess we should stop counting wins on protoss maps too
katrina is long time gone dude
|
On January 07 2010 00:16 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2010 20:56 raga4ka wrote:On January 06 2010 20:38 Malinor wrote:On January 06 2010 01:06 Plexa wrote:On January 05 2010 23:17 HuntingX wrote:
2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with. The single biggest issue I have with the "jaedong is still in the MSL" argument is that he's being spoonfed scrubs thanks to the retarded MSL bracket generation system. Let me know when Jaedong faces a real opponent in the MSL kkk Is this even accurate? Seeding after Kespa ranks just starts with the quarter-finals. Of course JD was seeded in his Ro32 group (since he made Ro4 last year), and since he won that one, of course he got to play someone who finished second in his group (aka Firefist, could have been Ruby). Until his series against stats (which hasn't finished yet), it has been a normal MSL for him. And in the Ro4 his opponent will either be Kal or Hwasin, so he will in fact face a real opponent then. On another note, although I believe JD should have been second, I don't think he will win a SL this season, even if Flash wasn't the monster he is right now. I just feel that he does not have the dedication in his eyes that he had last year. Quite understandable after back-2-back OSLs. Even a tyrant needs to rest sometime. I agree that Jaedong doesn't look as good right now , but if Flash get's eliminated i don't see who will stop him . With the exception of probably Light who is a solid TvZer still in a Bo5 would be tough for Light . A protoss player ? NO ; Kwanro ? doubt it in a BO 5 . I think Flash vs Jaedong on paper is a lock unless Best/Light cause the upsets ... Flash has a tendency to drop to low caliber gamers, and he got to face Best, even if up 1 game, and JD. JD will stomp him, Best has a chanse too.
Like he did in the 1st game on Fighting Spirit? or 2nd game Neo HBR? or maybe you're saying he's gonna stomp him the same way he stomped Sea in Proleague? Less fanboism more realism.
|
On January 07 2010 00:16 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2010 20:56 raga4ka wrote:On January 06 2010 20:38 Malinor wrote:On January 06 2010 01:06 Plexa wrote:On January 05 2010 23:17 HuntingX wrote:
2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with. The single biggest issue I have with the "jaedong is still in the MSL" argument is that he's being spoonfed scrubs thanks to the retarded MSL bracket generation system. Let me know when Jaedong faces a real opponent in the MSL kkk Is this even accurate? Seeding after Kespa ranks just starts with the quarter-finals. Of course JD was seeded in his Ro32 group (since he made Ro4 last year), and since he won that one, of course he got to play someone who finished second in his group (aka Firefist, could have been Ruby). Until his series against stats (which hasn't finished yet), it has been a normal MSL for him. And in the Ro4 his opponent will either be Kal or Hwasin, so he will in fact face a real opponent then. On another note, although I believe JD should have been second, I don't think he will win a SL this season, even if Flash wasn't the monster he is right now. I just feel that he does not have the dedication in his eyes that he had last year. Quite understandable after back-2-back OSLs. Even a tyrant needs to rest sometime. I agree that Jaedong doesn't look as good right now , but if Flash get's eliminated i don't see who will stop him . With the exception of probably Light who is a solid TvZer still in a Bo5 would be tough for Light . A protoss player ? NO ; Kwanro ? doubt it in a BO 5 . I think Flash vs Jaedong on paper is a lock unless Best/Light cause the upsets ... Flash has a tendency to drop to low caliber gamers, and he got to face Best, even if up 1 game, and JD. JD will stomp him, Best has a chanse too.
Flash is and always has been the least likely person to drop games to low tier gamers.
|
2 of my favorite players are not on =( (and 1 of them is slumping so i dont really care)
hope that this month effort and fant would get into the power rank =(
I want (wish)
1: effort in the PR
2: movie to stay
3: stork to stay
4: bisu goes into PR
5: fant goes into PR
6: dont cares about the other xD (maybe jeadong but flash? naaah)
|
5930 Posts
On January 07 2010 10:03 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2010 00:16 Geo.Rion wrote:On January 06 2010 20:56 raga4ka wrote:On January 06 2010 20:38 Malinor wrote:On January 06 2010 01:06 Plexa wrote:On January 05 2010 23:17 HuntingX wrote:
2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with. The single biggest issue I have with the "jaedong is still in the MSL" argument is that he's being spoonfed scrubs thanks to the retarded MSL bracket generation system. Let me know when Jaedong faces a real opponent in the MSL kkk Is this even accurate? Seeding after Kespa ranks just starts with the quarter-finals. Of course JD was seeded in his Ro32 group (since he made Ro4 last year), and since he won that one, of course he got to play someone who finished second in his group (aka Firefist, could have been Ruby). Until his series against stats (which hasn't finished yet), it has been a normal MSL for him. And in the Ro4 his opponent will either be Kal or Hwasin, so he will in fact face a real opponent then. On another note, although I believe JD should have been second, I don't think he will win a SL this season, even if Flash wasn't the monster he is right now. I just feel that he does not have the dedication in his eyes that he had last year. Quite understandable after back-2-back OSLs. Even a tyrant needs to rest sometime. I agree that Jaedong doesn't look as good right now , but if Flash get's eliminated i don't see who will stop him . With the exception of probably Light who is a solid TvZer still in a Bo5 would be tough for Light . A protoss player ? NO ; Kwanro ? doubt it in a BO 5 . I think Flash vs Jaedong on paper is a lock unless Best/Light cause the upsets ... Flash has a tendency to drop to low caliber gamers, and he got to face Best, even if up 1 game, and JD. JD will stomp him, Best has a chanse too. Flash is and always has been the least likely person to drop games to low tier gamers.
This. He choked against players he shouldn't have which lead to him getting kicked out of individual leagues again and again but no way does he have a tendency to drop games against low caliber gamers. The fact that he's achieved a 70% win rate after 300+ games won proves this fact.
He demolished proleague last year but lost whenever KT needed him to win. If anything, his past failings proves the opposite. That he crushed everyone who isn't "good" yet didn't have the stuff to take on the very best (which obviously isn't really true anymore).
(If Geo.Rion is claiming that Best is a "low caliber gamer" in that post, he's completely wrong. His PvT has always been the real deal)
|
On January 07 2010 03:04 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2010 19:17 raga4ka wrote:
STORK LOSING TO CHEESE IS HIS OWN FAULT , PURE LOSING TO CHEESE IS HIS OWN FAULT . DON'T BLAME THE MAPS , MATCH-UPS , BUILD ORDERS , CHEESE ALL - IN BLAME THE PLAYER THAT LOST AND THEIR SKILLS !!!! A WIN IS A WIN NO MATTER WHAT HE DID IN THE GAME .
Losing in a practically unwinnable game doesn't make any person look bad you know, especially el nino. Theres only 2 protoss that ever actually beat anyone on el nino, and they're arguably the best pvzers out there right now. Of course how they lose is relevant. Pure played like shit, his loss was valid. And stork totally misplayed against those mass mutas, though who knows how much some features of the map played a part in his crappy response, I donno.
|
1. Flash
2. Jaedong
3. Stork[gm]
4. Shine[Kal]
5. Movie
6. Inter.Calm
7. Kwanro[saM]
8. ZerO
9. Kal
10. Sea[Shield]
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
