CBNC Bisu – Bisu played in some of the most entertaining games of the month. His game against Turn, for instance, will be remembered as one of the better comebacks of 2009. But one must ask, why was Bisu even in that position to begin with?! Throughout December Bisu has been playing terrible games against terrible players, and scraping wins. He was tested twice this month – once against Shine and once against Stork. Against Shine he was able to take revenge for his OSL loss (although Shine looked pretty bad in this game) but against Stork he was simply crushed by superior play. Simply put, Bisu’s game conduct has been so miserable in December that if you actually rewatch his games without knowing that it’s Bisu playing – you would think you are looking at Jangbi or Backho playing. Truth be told, Bisu is lucky to be getting a place in the CBNC.
Effort – Dropping Effort off this list breaks my heart, but he just didn’t do enough in December to stay on it. Indeed, all that comes to mind when I think about Effort in December is his embarrassing loss to Ruby in the MSL. He was eliminated from both leagues in poor games, his condition in the Proleague has been severely questioned. The only good sign for Effort recently is a win over Stork on a Z>P map. Sorry Effort, but you’ll have to be content with a place here for this month.
Okay let's deal with Calm at #9 first. The reason Calm is on this power rank is because his ZvZ is capable of winning games. November was a grace month, he was able to stay low in the PR despite a shitty record on the strength of his past performances with a tagline basically saying, prove me right in December - Calm was not able to do that this month. The reason Calm dropped is that his ZvT and ZvP look terrible. Saying that in light of his series against Flash may seem contradictory, but if you look at the strength of his games across the entire month (not just the games on 01/01/10) then it is clear that his ZvT is not up to par.
Examples. 1) Fantasy vs Calm
While Fantasy is sucking atm (relatively of course), he still is pretty sharp so a convincing win here would do great things to alleviate concerns about his ZvT. This game can be divided into halves - pre-Hive and post-Hive. pre-Hive Calm isn't doing anything impressive, but is able to keep the game even and everything looks pretty solid. He's a little careless with his Mutalisks, but going 3hatch gives him that extra bit of flexibility with them (since he's not relying on them to do as much damage as a 2 hatch.). Up until now Calm's playing alright. Then he makes a Hive and the game falls to pieces. Here is all the mistakes Calm made - Poor engagement of Fantasy's troops when Fantasy was first pushing with tank/vessel (this was horrendous) - Failure to shut down/prevent Fantasy's third - Failure to get a 4th gas to keep up in the macro game with fantasy - Reaction time on drops was abysmal - Unit control, on the whole, was very very poor Calm looked terrible in the 2nd half of this game (watch the vod if you don't beleive me). The reason this game went on so long is that Fantasy played pretty terrible as well (poor vessel control, losing shitloads of marines/tanks to idle lurkers etc). This game just makes me go, woah - maybe your losses against Justin in November weren't just a fluke after all?
Example 2 - Calm vs Piano
Yes, Calm won this game. He pulled wayyy ahead at the start with a cute 2hatch lurker build. I'm not going to deduct marks for that, he's entitled to throw the curve ball every now and then. Once he got this advantage, he proceeded into somewhat of a normal game. Despite this advantage the game dragged into post-Hive game and once again Calm falls apart. Every single problem noted above is also present in his game play here. Fortunately, Piano isn't very good and with such a large advantage it was always going to be Calm's game to lose. Nevertheless, this game reveals that Calm's late game problems are not isolated to one game. It's inherent in his ZvT style.
Unfortunately, his game against Miracle didn't really reveal anything. Except that he loves to use the exact same strategy on Tornado over and over again. Miracle killed himself before any real information could be gathered about Calm.
Example 3 - Calm vs Flash Game 1
Okay the previous game have shown that Calm's Mutalisk control isn't great, but this game shows that when Clam shows up to play, his mutalisks are terrible. Calm was never in control of this game - his 2 hatch muta did not do nearly enough damage for him to call it even and when he lost most of his mutalisks the game was over. The rest was just a formality (other Zerg's have gg'd at the point in the past, like hero vs Light in the MSL). This does nothing to alleviate any concerns about Calm's ZvT.
Example 4 - Calm vs Flash Game 2
As a Calm fan, this is what I want to see!! Vintage calm in action. The hidden third base in this game was the perfect touch to make this strategy lethal. Despite Clam controlling the mutalisks initially, Calm settled in to finish the game and exhibited the control that we expect from him. Flash had a hole in his defense, Calm saw it, exploited it, and took the game. Despite a win here, this does nothing but reassure me that Calm's mid game/early game is top notch, its the late midgame and late game that we have big problems with!
Example 5 - Calm vs Flash Game 3
This is Calm's glorious redemption game. For once he deviates from his standard ZvT style and hugs a faster 4th gas like his life depended on it. In this game Calm does make mistakes, but they're not basic mistakes they are things like deciding when and where and how to attack Flash's turtle and whatnot. This is exactly what I had been looking for all month - but one game is never enough to redeem two months of playing like crap.
Example 6 - Calm vs Flash Game 4
Just like his other ZvT's, Calm falls apart once reaching Hive. This just goes to show that game 3 was an anomaly, and this is what you should be expecting from Calm usually.
There you have it, a month of ZvT - and the conclusion? Calm played poor ZvT in December. After a lackluster November he had a lot of tough questions to answer. How many did he answer? None. Calm's ZvT has not looked like top 10 material, not by a long shot.
So then we turn to his ZvP. In essence if you have two good matchups and are making the semifinals of either OSL or MSL you're pretty much guaranteed a good spot on the PR. With Calm's ZvZ being good, and his ZvT being bad (relative to other players matchups in the top ten) his ZvP better be good!
Unfortunately, we can' say this about his ZvP. November also begged the questions - Calm, can you play good ZvP!? He had a very questionable loss to Best in the MSL (a game which he should have won) and he gained a huge lead over Sangho on Outsider only to almost blow it entirely. There were some serious doubts over his ZvP, but if this was just Calm having an off day or Calm getting lazy in the end game (see a theme here btw?) then surely he would be able to crush Pure, a nothing special protoss.
That was not the case. In game 1 he was at a severe disadvantage against Pure after being cannon rushed. But he was fortunate that Pure choked and misread his 2 hatch muta - basically gifted him the game. In game 2, Calm went 2 hatch on el nino (great ZvP map btw) and barely was able to fend of Pure. Indeed, after losing his mutalisks the game was almost equal. However, Pure once against choked up hard and Calm went on to take the series. Those games revealed absolutely nothing about his ZvP condition, if anything, it raised more questions about it. With two poor months of ZvP how can anyone justifiably say that Calm's ZvP is top ten worthy? You can't.
In summation, Calm late game in both matchups tends to spiral out of control. His early/mid game play is really good (hence why he wins zvzs) but his mid-late/late game play is comparatively terrible. As such, with such a huge glaring inherent flaw in his game play, he deserves 9th. Am I being too harsh on Calm? That's a very real possibility, I'm a fan who's very harsh on players he likes. But I think the fact that Kwanro has been able to play solid games in every matchup, and not just ZvZ gives him the edge this month. Yes, Effort has played better than Calm this month. And in a perfect wold Effort would be in and calm would be CBNC - but effort did drop out of both leagues and has only had proleague to worry about for most of the month. Expect effort to come rising back in as some of the rookies crumble under the pressure.
Oh and why is Zero ranked above him? Because Zero doesn't lack the same late game faults that Calm does, but still has a strong mid-early game (not as strong though).
Okay, let's do Jaedong vs Stork. Hopefully we can all agree that if Stork isn't #2 then Jaedong is, and Stork is #3. I would like to emphasize the quality that distinguished the top three from everyone else - and that was consistency across the board in December. All three were destroying Proleague and whatever leagues they were in (up until Ro8 anyway).
The task this month was to determine which played stronger in December - Stork or Jaedong. Personally, I beleive that both are playing very very well at the moment and separating them is almost impossible. So basically you have Flash way out ahead, then Stork and Jaedong trailing in his wake together.
Now let's get to the games. In the OSL Stork played Kwanro and Flash. Jaedong played Movie and go.go. I don't know about you, but I would much rather have Jaedong's opponents than Stork's opponents! So basically, Stork's OSL group was harder. Jaedong destroyed Movie and go.go like he should, so really he shouldn't be penalized for having the weaker group, but Stork does get bonus points for defeating Flash in an impressive game (despite all the imba in his favour).
So let's take a look at their respective Ro8 opponents. Jaedong's opponent has a career record of 99-43 in TvZ (70% including unofficial games). Stork's opponent has a career record of 30-14 in ZvP (68% including unofficial games). While Stork's opponent is newer than Flash, and doesn't boast the same reputation as him, Shine is actually a beast in ZvP. To say that they were equally hard would be a bit of a lie, but Shine really does deserve credit for his ZvP.
Jaedong lost 0-2 in poor games. Stork lost 1-2 in mostly close games. So who wins the Ro8 battle? Difficult to tell, but personally I lean slightly towards Stork since Jaedong did look so helpless against Flash.
Jaedong is being spoonfed victims in the MSL. That's thanks to the retarded KeSPA seeding format - and so Jaedong gets to look forward to two easy round of firefist and Stats. Other players got legitimately difficult opponents (like Flash) but Jaedong gets to cruise through. I don't value Jaedong's MSL run much for that reason. He's been spoonfed scrubs - just like in proleague. Stork dispatches of scrubs as well, or at least he did in December.
Turning to Proleague, Jaedong probably has an edge over Stork. Stork losing to Effort is comparable to Jaedong losing to Sea. Stork trounced Bisu/Best while Jaedong got Roro/Hogil in their mirrors. Jaedong semi-cheesed Movie and dispatched tester without too much problem so his ZvP is still very much intact (not that we were ever questioning it). Stork didn't run into any Terrans. With all that set, I would say that they are about even. But then Stork lost to hero earlier in the month. That game is an anomaly as far as I am concerned, but with the separation between these two so fine it does give Jaedong a very small edge in PL.
To try and force some separation between the two I concerned their November records. Both were impresssive. Jaedong had some key losses to crap zergs, while Stork has a really terrible end of november despite a solid showing earlier in the month. There isn't anything useful to be gained by looking 2 months into the past really.
As I already outlined, the deciding factor was weighing up between Stork's PvZ and Jaedong's ZvT. Looking at all the games over the month, my confidence in Jaedong's vT has been shaken while my confidence in Stork's vZ is only scarred. This does largely come from comparing Shine-Stork/Effort-Stork against Flash-Jaedong/Sea-Jaedong. People will disagree with this, and that's not surprising given the rampant Jaedong fanbase, or minute separation between these two in december.
Let me quickly deal with some of the other major complaints.
Violet Violet's playing basically two matchups in proleauge at the moment - mostly vP with some vT thrown in on the side. Violet is playing well at the moment, but really he isn't exhibiting play worthy of top 10 or CBNC. Indeed, he has 2 painful and glaring losses to weak Protosses. With only proleague to practice for you really have to stand out if you want to be noticed for this ranking. Violet just isn't standing out at the moment, and that's why he's not on these lists.
Zero is too high! No he's not. Lol. He played more games than anyone else this month (iirc) AND he had the toughest draw of any progamer. I mean seriously, he had movie in the OSL, Flash in the MSL and was the woongjin ace through this whole time (where he ran into Stork TWICE). Thats a Jaedong-esque workload. Throughout this all, he never looked hopeless in his games and put up a good fight in all his matches (even taking a game off of flash). He had a really rough month, but he still is one of the most skilled zergs there are.
Kwanro is too high! As the fill-in PR writer, I will admit that ranking Kwanro this month was difficult. I stand by his placing at #8 however. He's on a 6-0 streak, and despite his inconsistencies, hasn't really lost to anyone surprising other than Bogus. Indeed, Kwanro looks like he's going to make an MSL semifinal again. Whether or not he is better than Calm comes down to the question who is more likely to win a game against player X? If X is a Zerg, then Calm is more likely to. If X is not a Zerg, then Calm will probably end up playing with hive tech (as he has done with all his vT's, and most vP's in November) and as such will be vulnerable if he doesn't have an advantage. Kwanro you know will exploit any early game advantages and make it a mid game win. Kwanro is just better at Calm at converting the almost won games to won games - and both players are very capable of getting games to the almost won stage. As such, Kwanro's better conversation rate made me put him over Calm this month.
Protoss to beat Flash at the moment, this is what you need: Protoss favoured map, hidden expansion, unconventional late game play and ridiculously solid game conduct under heavy pressure
Violet craves the power rank spot as much as Sea if not more. Atleast give me a reason why he isnt on the PR or CBNC after being a power house in the PL and carrying through KT ace matches. The guy is the new protoss ace and he is YET to be mentioned. You didnt even mention that Sea probally couldve beat him if he had scouted the carrier tech in their game. Please, clarify it and you will make peace among MANY KTR fans who are very curious.
On January 03 2010 06:59 Iplaythings wrote: Violet craves the power rank spot as much as Sea if not more. Atleast give me a reason why he isnt on the PR or CBNC after being a power house in the PL and carrying through KT ace matches. The guy is the new protoss ace and he is YET to be mentioned. You didnt even mention that Sea probally couldve beat him if he had scouted the carrier tech in their game. Please, clarify it and you will make peace among MANY KTR fans who are very curious.
Roro is more of a candidate to make CNBC than Violet. Violet's a good player, no question, but he hasn't done anything (other than beating sea) to make me go wow, this kid needs to be on the PR. No leagues, no amazing gameplay, nothing special PL score sheet = no PR/CBNC.
Ugh... no way Kwanro is better than Calm atm. I like Kwanro and his unpredictable style is good but Calm is his superior in pretty much every matchup.
And saying Calm had to "resort" to 2 hatch mutas to beat Pure is just bashing his intelligent game-planning. Calm devised a build against Flash's 3rd base denial TvZ, therefore it's likely he analyzed something to exploit Pure's play-style and those builds were the best for those maps.
On January 03 2010 06:59 Iplaythings wrote: Violet craves the power rank spot as much as Sea if not more. Atleast give me a reason why he isnt on the PR or CBNC after being a power house in the PL and carrying through KT ace matches. The guy is the new protoss ace and he is YET to be mentioned. You didnt even mention that Sea probally couldve beat him if he had scouted the carrier tech in their game. Please, clarify it and you will make peace among MANY KTR fans who are very curious.
Roro is more of a candidate to make CNBC than Violet. Violet's a good player, no question, but he hasn't done anything (other than beating sea) to make me go wow, this kid needs to be on the PR. No leagues, no amazing gameplay, nothing special PL score sheet = no PR/CBNC.
Uh, why is Sea on the PR? For having near invincible TvT? He is also out of it. No offense Plexa, cus I respect everything in the PR except that. Violet is 10-3 (With wins over Ruby, Leta and Best) since he was smashed out of MSL by Shine (You said it yourself, and I am qouoting you now:"excellent zvp sniper". But by then, Shine's talent wasn't recognized at all.) In a really great game on Destination.. Ok he had some loses too (like Sea) And lets take a look at Sea's stats is 17-3 since he was beaten out. But Sea also had alot more games to play, and Violet shares ace match duty with Flash. Maybe Violet wasnt as dominant as Sea but it's like Sea's "being out of leagues" status and owning PL gives him a low PR position while it doesnt even grant people like Violet a CBNC. Also: Name a matchup which violet is weak in pt. only his PvZ isnt topnotch. (Make a analog to Sea's TvP) Dont get me wrong Plexa, I love your PR and I aint angry or somesort, just... Curious. But that's just my 2 cents.
calm number 9? what the fuck? he went 11-5 in a month with 8 games against flash, shine, fantasy, zero, and effort. 2 hatch muta is a legitimate build too
and its "just zvz" is a pretty bad excuse for calm going 6-1 this month in it
also calm has won his most recent encounter with every player ranks 2-8
What the hell, Clam is pretty much a consensus #3 and this rank makes no sense whatsoever, if you really would put money on Kwanro over Calm i'll place some bets with you quite happily.
On January 03 2010 07:39 tedster wrote: What the hell, Clam is pretty much a consensus #3 and this rank makes no sense whatsoever, if you really would put money on Kwanro over Calm i'll place some bets with you quite happily.
There wouldn't be any reason to make PR if it was based on consensus, they could just do poll. Also, i'm convinced that some choices were made just to encourage discussion/drama(conspiracy!).
I don't think movie deserved to be even neer that position. The only high caliber player he beat was zero and I just dont think that is enough to be placed so high. Otherwise I'm ok with most of the rest (maybe kwanro is a little weaker but the lower half of the rank is always hard to place
Pretty shitty power rank overall. Stork is too high and Calm is ridiculously low. It has a lot of the right names, but in all the wrong places (except for Flash, of course).
Stork played one PvT this month, 1! Sure it was against FlaSh and sure it was a good game but its a ridiculous leap of faith to say his PvT is better than JD ZvP; especially since before that game Storks PvT wasn't anything special and this month JD was 5-0, all of which were one sided affairs. Storks PvP was pretty good this month but two of his games were against herb and han who both suck and gosi who is untested but very well might just suck; JD was also undefeated in his much more volatile mirror with the same numer of games and against a higher average opponent skill (Hogil and Roro are both good and Firefist best mu is ZvZ; before his games against JD he was 60% plus). Theres just no logical argument for Storks mirror being better than Jd's. And last but not least they're weaker mu, Stork went 4-4, JD 3-3; Stork lost against some very aggressive play and beat some very good players, JD raped a few very good players, lost one straight up game to the best player on earth with the strong mu of anyone in the scene (TvZ); lost a game to very cunning cheese and had a little slip up against sea. If anything I'd say in this respect they had an even month. In summary, JD ZvP is undeniably stronger than Storks PvT, his mirror is at the very least as good but probably better and they're statistically weakest mu's about even (even though I personally think JD ZvT has always been better that Storks PvZ and he didn't really have a chance to show it this month). Beyond that, JD is still in a league, that should be the final nail in any argument that Stork should be higher than JD.
On January 03 2010 08:05 ndralcasid wrote: When was the last time Bisu was out of the PR??
And damn, Movie needs a new picture...
almost never. Even when he deserved to be sometimes, he still got #3 positions in the like because "Bisu's obviously a top 3 player," works for him. ):
On January 03 2010 08:05 ndralcasid wrote: When was the last time Bisu was out of the PR??
And damn, Movie needs a new picture...
almost never. Even when he deserved to be sometimes, he still got #3 positions in the like because "Bisu's obviously a top 3 player," works for him. ):
and this month, where he would deserve to be on it, he isn't. Look at his TLPD and say to my FACE that his PvZ doesnt look impressive again.
On January 03 2010 08:05 ndralcasid wrote: When was the last time Bisu was out of the PR??
And damn, Movie needs a new picture...
almost never. Even when he deserved to be sometimes, he still got #3 positions in the like because "Bisu's obviously a top 3 player," works for him. ):
and this month, where he would deserve to be on it, he isn't. Look at his TLPD and say to my FACE that his PvZ doesnt look impressive again.
I totally agree about Movie. For the last 3 months he's been the Protoss I've been most eager to watch. With Bisu and Stork I know what I'm getting, top quality standard PvZ. But Jaedong worked out how to play against them and every good zerg can emulate it. Movie shows innovation, he stays on 2 bases when everyone else takes 3 and then throws out an unstoppable timing attack and wins. He messes around with reavers, shuttle openings, macro backed up with constant harass. In many ways he's a throwback to Bisu in the months directly after the MSL win when zergs just didn't know what to do. He has such a variety of openings which allow him to dominate the game flow and transition into massive, game ending, attacks. He is really unpolished right now and has been fortunate that his opponents treat him like just another Protoss but it's working for him. Still, I feel if players started suiciding overlords in his main more often early game he'd lose to the superior mechanics of zergs.
On January 03 2010 08:05 ndralcasid wrote: When was the last time Bisu was out of the PR??
And damn, Movie needs a new picture...
almost never. Even when he deserved to be sometimes, he still got #3 positions in the like because "Bisu's obviously a top 3 player," works for him. ):
and this month, where he would deserve to be on it, he isn't. Look at his TLPD and say to my FACE that his PvZ doesnt look impressive again.
It doesn't look impressive.
It really wasn't that great.
I think it's difficult to take good players off the rank entirely and for that, I'm disappointed to see fantasy and EffOrt go, but I understand why it occurred, and I am so happy to have PR's that actually reflect the play that occurred in the past month. I know that EffOrt will come roaring back. That said, ZerO didn't deserve that spot. He had a terrible month.
Also, this is the highest Shine will ever get. Good riddance.
On January 03 2010 08:05 ndralcasid wrote: When was the last time Bisu was out of the PR??
On January 03 2010 08:05 ndralcasid wrote: When was the last time Bisu was out of the PR??
And damn, Movie needs a new picture...
almost never. Even when he deserved to be sometimes, he still got #3 positions in the like because "Bisu's obviously a top 3 player," works for him. ):
and this month, where he would deserve to be on it, he isn't. Look at his TLPD and say to my FACE that his PvZ doesnt look impressive again.
It doesn't look impressive.
whatever i'm not in a good mood. Bisu is on the decline, i think he will never win a SL again. I'm just sad that he didn't win this MSL, because with this maps he really could have.
It really wasn't that great.
I think it's difficult to take good players off the rank entirely and for that, I'm disappointed to see fantasy and EffOrt go, but I understand why it occurred, and I am so happy to have PR's that actually reflect the play that occurred in the past month. I know that EffOrt will come roaring back.
Also, this is the highest Shine will ever get. Good riddance.
right.. effort even beat stork that month, and fantasy calm. The thing that bothers me is that shine beats one good player this month ( bisu was last ), and climbs to #4. His PL is not impressive AT ALL
On January 03 2010 08:05 ndralcasid wrote: When was the last time Bisu was out of the PR??
And damn, Movie needs a new picture...
almost never. Even when he deserved to be sometimes, he still got #3 positions in the like because "Bisu's obviously a top 3 player," works for him. ):
and this month, where he would deserve to be on it, he isn't. Look at his TLPD and say to my FACE that his PvZ doesnt look impressive again.
Though I think 9 is a bit harsh, I do, in retrospect, agree with you that Calm's play itself isn't that impressive. And he didn't exactly have the most difficult pool of opponents either. I still think he should have been a little higher though.
And Bisu definitely deserved to be out of the list. Crashing out of both Starleagues early to people he shouldn't lose to and dropping games to the likes of Secret and Cuteangel in proleague says a lot about his current form right now.
On January 03 2010 08:05 ndralcasid wrote: When was the last time Bisu was out of the PR??
And damn, Movie needs a new picture...
almost never. Even when he deserved to be sometimes, he still got #3 positions in the like because "Bisu's obviously a top 3 player," works for him. ):
and this month, where he would deserve to be on it, he isn't. Look at his TLPD and say to my FACE that his PvZ doesnt look impressive again.
Hi, my name's Bisu. I'm going to go 7-5 and drop out of the MSL this month after dropping to Bogus/Guemchi, and lose in PL to Haksoo and Frozean. BUT since I got revenge on Shine I should obviously be on the PR!!!!
Honestly, here's Bisu's losses:
Frozean (RUHHHHH-OFL) Stork (Fair enough, but BvP doesn't exist anymore. Why?) Haksoo (RUHHHHH-OFL) Bogus (not rofl worthy but come on, Bogus is not that great) Guemchi (Another stab to the heart of Bisu's "best" match up)
And his wins?
815 (He's alright, but almost entirely a ZvZ sniper. Wasn't that good a game either) Reach (T_T I love you Reach but you are not that good anymore) Roro (he's okay. Good job, Bisu, proving that mediocre zergs are still mediocre) Shine (Honest to goodness good match that Bisu played to Bisu standards. That's one of 12 so far) Turn (Good comeback! Almost lost to a noobie Khan Terran, though =\) Hydra (reread Roro's explanation) Savior (Love ya, man, but you're like Hydra and Roro -- mediocre zerg who can kind of ZvP)
That's it, Out of 12 games Bisu had 1, MAYBE 2 impressive games, and at the very least, 4 debilitating losses.
His PvZ may be 'solid' again, but Stork has been proving his has caught up and surpassed for the past 2 months now.
On January 03 2010 07:35 iamho wrote: calm number 9? what the fuck? he went 11-5 in a month with 8 games against flash, shine, fantasy, zero, and effort. 2 hatch muta is a legitimate build too
and its "just zvz" is a pretty bad excuse for calm going 6-1 this month in it
also calm has won his most recent encounter with every player ranks 2-8
I agree here totally, and you really can't blame anyone for losing to Flash right now.
On January 03 2010 08:05 ndralcasid wrote: When was the last time Bisu was out of the PR??
And damn, Movie needs a new picture...
Bisu had #8 in the first PR, November of 2006. He doesn't show up again until March 2007, where he leaps immediately to #2 for obvious reasons. He doesn't fall off until June 2008, spending most of that time at #1. He comes back in at number 8 in October 2008, and stayed on until January 2010.
I'm actually really happy to see Bisu actually get called on his poor performance - his only appearance past the round of 8 in an OSL/MSL since his last win is best attributed to stairs being the natural predator of the wild BackHo, yet he went 3-1 in November against fairly weak opponents and somehow held on to the #3 rank in December.
I do think Kwanro and Calm should be switched, but that's minor. As for Sea? Look at his raw proleague record over the last two months. I have no idea how a player with that kind of talent can't even crack the upper tiers of the starleagues.
WTF kwanro, he played mediocre players at best all of december and rises two spots just cuz he's in the semi's of the OSL? bullshit, bisu being out of PR i can understand, shine being at #4 i can't, nor can i calm dropping even further; you can't just discount his zvz games because 'they can go either way,' this months PR is a load of crap. There were discussions about what the standards for each months PRs are, whether it should be based on a player's recent performance, or on his overall skill, and this PR is inconsistent from either view.
On January 03 2010 07:35 iamho wrote: calm number 9? what the fuck? he went 11-5 in a month with 8 games against flash, shine, fantasy, zero, and effort. 2 hatch muta is a legitimate build too
and its "just zvz" is a pretty bad excuse for calm going 6-1 this month in it
also calm has won his most recent encounter with every player ranks 2-8
I agree here totally, and you really can't blame anyone for losing to Flash right now.
ZerO had an awful month too. Calm and ZerO should be switched.
On January 03 2010 07:50 Plexa wrote: I encourage people to watch calm's play rather than just cite results. I know his result sheet is good, but the PR isn't just about results.
He's probably, although not certain to say, the best ZvZ player around and his showing against Flash was very impressive and just looks bad because it is Flash. Zero might be slightly better at ZvT considering Calm's maps were much much more favorable (though Calm defended considerably better against Flash's new innovations) but it is pretty hilarious that arguably the best ZvZ'er and the 1st/2nd best ZvT'er is below...Shine Movie SEA and KWANRO? Seriously, Kwanro?
And it really would've been hilarious if you put Flash at 1/2. He kinda does need all that room to explain just how awesome he's playing, though what you put was solid and succinct.
Hi, my name's Bisu. I'm going to go 7-5 and drop out of the MSL this month after dropping to Bogus/Guemchi, and lose in PL to Haksoo and Frozean. BUT since I got revenge on Shine I should obviously be on the PR!!!!
Honestly, here's Bisu's losses:
Frozean (RUHHHHH-OFL) Stork (Fair enough, but BvP doesn't exist anymore. Why?) Haksoo (RUHHHHH-OFL) Bogus (not rofl worthy but come on, Bogus is not that great) Guemchi (Another stab to the heart of Bisu's "best" match up)
And his wins?
815 (He's alright, but almost entirely a ZvZ sniper. Wasn't that good a game either) Reach (T_T I love you Reach but you are not that good anymore) Roro (he's okay. Good job, Bisu, proving that mediocre zergs are still mediocre) Shine (Honest to goodness good match that Bisu played to Bisu standards. That's one of 12 so far) Turn (Good comeback! Almost lost to a noobie Khan Terran, though =\) Hydra (reread Roro's explanation) Savior (Love ya, man, but you're like Hydra and Roro -- mediocre zerg who can kind of ZvP)
That's it, Out of 12 games Bisu had 1, MAYBE 2 impressive games, and at the very least, 4 debilitating losses.
His PvZ may be 'solid' again, but Stork has been proving his has caught up and surpassed for the past 2 months now.
Ok Frozean ( 2-fac push, thats cheese) guemchi ( one misclick ) Bogus ( cheese? ) Haksoo (Bo-Loss)
Wins 815 ( the defense vs that 5-pool.. awesome ) Reach (good solid win) Roro (look at my anti-team and say Roro is only mediocre, also it was a ACE-Match) Shine ( you already mentioned ) Turn ( Good comeback is a little understatement, many people wanted that game to be Game of the Year 2009, that pushbreaking.. art ) Hydra ( ok ) Savior ( clutch play in a losing situation )
WTF kwanro, he played mediocre players at best all of december and rises two spots just cuz he's in the semi's of the OSL? bullshit, bisu being out of PR i can understand, shine being at #4 i can't, nor can i calm dropping even further; you can't just discount his zvz games because 'they can go either way,' this months PR is a load of crap. There were discussions about what the standards for each months PRs are, whether it should be based on a player's recent performance, or on his overall skill, and this PR is inconsistent with either view
kwanro is in MSL. he also won a ace-match. he is PR-worthy. his place is maybe to high though.
On January 03 2010 08:31 SkytoM wrote: Ok Frozean ( 2-fac push, thats cheese) guemchi ( one misclick ) Bogus ( cheese? ) Haksoo (Bo-Loss)
CuteAngel - cheese he should be capable of stopping from a "worse" player by now.
Guemchi - See Jaedong's Spire Cancel in the Jaedong/Bisu HBR game.
Bogus - Was cheese, but the situation occured because Bisu failed to play up to his level.
Haksoo - The only matchup where a build order loss should occur between S/High-A ranked players and random near-B-teamers is ZvZ. If Bisu can't outplay Haksoo to overcome a BO disadvantage, he really doesn't belong in the rankings.
All four of those losses were really bad. For a player no longer in OSL or MSL, the caliber of his wins did absolutely nothing to affirm that he's anywhere near deserving of a PR spot, especially in such a strong month. Except for against by.hero, his play wasn't particularly strong last month either, but he wasn't punished for it.
No response, I guess I'll continue. You say Stork is "the sole reason for Khans revival" and a "consistant ace player"; Jaedong has always carried Oz on his back, his record in pl is better and he's still undefeated in ace matchs. Also, using JD's one game vs. FlaSh as a yard stick is ridiculous; for the first game his practice time was split 3 different ways and he said he was focusing more on the MSL. Also, he went first! Every other player got to watch that game an analyze what went wrong, did you see any other players try and 3 hatch flash, no? I wonder why...
On January 03 2010 07:48 n.DieJokes wrote: Stork played one PvT this month, 1! Sure it was against FlaSh and sure it was a good game but its a ridiculous leap of faith to say his PvT is better than JD ZvP; especially since before that game Storks PvT wasn't anything special and this month JD was 5-0, all of which were one sided affairs. Storks PvP was pretty good this month but two of his games were against herb and han who both suck and gosi who is untested but very well might just suck; JD was also undefeated in his much more volatile mirror with the same numer of games and against a higher average opponent skill (Hogil and Roro are both good and Firefist best mu is ZvZ; before his games against JD he was 60% plus). Theres just no logical argument for Storks mirror being better than Jd's. And last but not least they're weaker mu, Stork went 4-4, JD 3-3; Stork lost against some very aggressive play and beat some very good players, JD raped a few very good players, lost one straight up game to the best player on earth with the strong mu of anyone in the scene (TvZ); lost a game to very cunning cheese and had a little slip up against sea. If anything I'd say in this respect they had an even month. In summary, JD ZvP is undeniably stronger than Storks PvT, his mirror is at the very least as good but probably better and they're statistically weakest mu's about even (even though I personally think JD ZvT has always been better that Storks PvZ and he didn't really have a chance to show it this month). Beyond that, JD is still in a league, that should be the final nail in any argument that Stork should be higher than JD.
Come on, jaedong beat roro, hogil, firefist x2. They all can be considered as mediocre~decent zergs who is just playing slightly better or (worse in hogil's case) at the current moment. Stork has beaten best and bisu, who although slumping, still have sick pvp. Stork's mirror match up is looking better than jaedong's.
Stork's pvz is also much more impressive than jaedong's zvt. Stork beat shine, zero x2, and kwanro, all decent~awesome zergs. Jaedong beat ruby, go.go, and canata. Theres no way that ruby, go.go, canata can compete with shine, zero x2, and kwanro. Stork's losses were also shine x2, by.hero, effort. Shine is displaying some of the best pvz right now and effort and by.hero are all good pvzer. Jaedong's loss similarly matches stork with flash x2 and sea. They way that they lost were pretty similar too.
Sure stork played one pvt, but it was v flash and he won pretty convincingly. He had control for pretty much the whole game except the time when flash was doing his little push. Beating flash convincingly is much more impressive than bunch of little wins in your best match up. Sure movie is good pvz, but he is not up at the level where he can perform consistently yet.
Being in a starleague also means nothing since stork and jaedong were knocked out of osl at the same time and stork was knocked of msl a while back. Stork is playing much better than he did during his msl games.
Stork is 10-4 last month while jaedong is 13-3. Both player's loss came from their worst matchup, but Stork's record is much more impressive since 8/14 games were on his worst match up, while jaedong's were only 6/16.
On January 03 2010 08:44 Avidkeystamper wrote: You honestly think Jaedong could've reacted better to Flash's bunker rush after losing an overlord?
Well, I still wonder if he could bring his drones just a bit earlier to prevent the bunker going down so quickly. Just a second or two would have a great difference. But to be honest, I believe, that even had he defended he would be incredibly behind. That game was lost after the ovie was killed.
On January 03 2010 08:41 n.DieJokes wrote: No response, I guess I'll continue. You say Stork is "the sole reason for Khans revival" and a "consistant ace player"; Jaedong has always carried Oz on his back, his record in pl is better and he's still undefeated in ace matchs.
That's why Hiya played the most recent ace match right? Yes Jaedong has always carried Oz. And If Oz slumped terribly and came back in December then I would have said that Jaedong is the sole reason that Oz stopped sucking. That's just not the case this month however (they didn't suck this month thats why). I'm not saying Jaedong is bad, I'm saying that in december Stork was the stronger player.
Also, using JD's one game vs. FlaSh as a yard stick is ridiculous; for the first game his practice time was split 3 different ways and he said he was focusing more on the MSL. Also, he went first! Every other player got to watch that game an analyze what went wrong, did you see any other players try and 3 hatch flash, no? I wonder why...
No, I'm using Flash as a universal yard stick. Three good zergs went up against him and each series revealed a lot about their condition. Jaedong's attention was split three ways, but so was Zeros (who played 20+ games this month more than anyone else) who was also up against Flash, and who actually played Flash first! So yea, who had the harder time this month? Zero, not jaedong...
On January 03 2010 08:44 Avidkeystamper wrote: You honestly think Jaedong could've reacted better to Flash's bunker rush after losing an overlord?
Well, I still wonder if he could bring his drones just a bit earlier to prevent the bunker going down so quickly. Just a second or two would have a great difference. But to be honest, I believe, that even had he defended he would be incredibly behind. That game was lost after the ovie was killed.
This, and what Kwark said. Flash did pull ahead after he got the overlord - but Jaedong still played the rest of the game poorly. The way he attacked that bunker was really really bad and sealed his fate in a matter of minutes.
On January 03 2010 08:44 Avidkeystamper wrote: You honestly think Jaedong could've reacted better to Flash's bunker rush after losing an overlord?
I was thinking more of a line of intercepting the marines as they go into the bunker, I know jaedong needed minerals for overlord and pool, but I think jaedong could of pull drones to intercept marines, if not enough money, cancel hatch, get rid of the threat, then put down the hatchery at nat again.
On January 03 2010 08:49 Avidkeystamper wrote: Cancel the hatchery and be boxed into that little choke in HBR? 1 base zerg v. 2 base teran gogo.
It's better than losing the game. Surely that's a pretty basic choice. He was at a disadvantage. He could pretend he wasn't, try and execute a normal counter, fail and lose or he could accept his disadvantage and try and recover later.
These situations can be recovered with clutch play anyway. + Show Spoiler +
On January 03 2010 08:49 Avidkeystamper wrote: Cancel the hatchery and be boxed into that little choke in HBR? 1 base zerg v. 2 base teran gogo.
It's better than losing the game. Surely that's a pretty basic choice. He was at a disadvantage. He could pretend he wasn't, try and execute a normal counter, fail and lose or he could accept his disadvantage and try and recover later.
These situations can be recovered with clutch play anyway. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl37oL8h4HQ
No, he loses the game against Flash in that situation too. It's Flash he's playing against here.
On January 03 2010 08:49 Avidkeystamper wrote: Cancel the hatchery and be boxed into that little choke in HBR? 1 base zerg v. 2 base teran gogo.
It's better than losing the game. Surely that's a pretty basic choice. He was at a disadvantage. He could pretend he wasn't, try and execute a normal counter, fail and lose or he could accept his disadvantage and try and recover later.
These situations can be recovered with clutch play anyway. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl37oL8h4HQ
Thats a pretty bad example given that savior went 9 pool so he can go for earlier aggression and up committed more in the push.
On January 03 2010 09:02 StylishVODs wrote: No way jaedong should be 3rd. just no way!! this is too resultbased for my taste.
but not for zero, 4-8 last 12 games mmmh
calm should be atleast 5-6 pos too. I don't agree with this at all:/ i simply dont get it
Calm 9th and jaedong being 3rd has nothing to do with results, if fact if you want to do it results based, then jaedong will probably be at 2nd and calm will go up 5~6 positions.
On January 03 2010 08:49 Avidkeystamper wrote: Cancel the hatchery and be boxed into that little choke in HBR? 1 base zerg v. 2 base teran gogo.
It's better than losing the game. Surely that's a pretty basic choice. He was at a disadvantage. He could pretend he wasn't, try and execute a normal counter, fail and lose or he could accept his disadvantage and try and recover later.
These situations can be recovered with clutch play anyway. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl37oL8h4HQ
Thats a pretty bad example given that savior went 9 pool so he can go for earlier aggression and up committed more in the push.
Wow, I think I haven't disagreed with a PR this much since JWD was in charge. (It's cool, each PR writer has his own priorities and it's always interesting to read how others see it). Here are my thoughts:
Stork over Jaedong: Just no. Jaedong is still in the MSL and was knocked out of the OSL by the far and away best player in the world. With similar records there's just no way that Stork should be ranked higher. I get the "more impressive wins" argument but in the end being in leagues matters... a lot. I like both of these players and I think swapping their places would have been more appropriate.
Dropping Bisu to CBNC: Bad move. Flash/Jaedong/Bisu should always be on the PR. They are consistently the best players in the world and have proven it over a span of about two years or more. Without a major slump lasting multiple months they should at least get a low spot somewhere. I'm not a big fan of fickle rankings where hot/cold streaks play such a big role. I know this isn't the majority view but just like when Flash dropped off a while back, you just knew he would be back, so why drop him in the first place? These are the most powerful players in the world. Not "who's hot and who's not". At least that's my view.
On January 03 2010 08:49 Avidkeystamper wrote: Cancel the hatchery and be boxed into that little choke in HBR? 1 base zerg v. 2 base teran gogo.
It's better than losing the game. Surely that's a pretty basic choice. He was at a disadvantage. He could pretend he wasn't, try and execute a normal counter, fail and lose or he could accept his disadvantage and try and recover later.
These situations can be recovered with clutch play anyway. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl37oL8h4HQ
Thats a pretty bad example given that savior went 9 pool so he can go for earlier aggression and up committed more in the push.
And he didn't lose an overlord.
But I think jaedong could of pulled drones earlier and cancel hatchery for more money, he probably would of avoided being contained though his natural will go up a bit later.
On January 03 2010 09:08 StylishVODs wrote: yes muffin, its based on results from jaedongs tvz against the strongest tvzers atm. and some are not resultbased, such as calm and zero.
No it isn't. Jaedong is 13-3 while stork is 10-4. Jaedong clearly had the better record. So jaedong being 3rd is not because of his results.
On January 03 2010 09:08 Goragoth wrote: Stork over Jaedong: Just no. Jaedong is still in the MSL and was knocked out of the OSL by the far and away best player in the world. With similar records there's just no way that Stork should be ranked higher. I get the "more impressive wins" argument but in the end being in leagues matters... a lot. I like both of these players and I think swapping their places would have been more appropriate.
Dropping Bisu to CBNC: Bad move. Flash/Jaedong/Bisu should always be on the PR. They are consistently the best players in the world and have proven it over a span of about two years or more. Without a major slump lasting multiple months they should at least get a low spot somewhere. I'm not a big fan of fickle rankings where hot/cold streaks play such a big role. I know this isn't the majority view but just like when Flash dropped off a while back, you just knew he would be back, so why drop him in the first place? These are the most powerful players in the world. Not "who's hot and who's not". At least that's my view.
This is an awful way of looking at the pr. If you want consistency, then fuck. We'll still have nada on the list even though hes doing terribly now. And the time frame in which stork dropped out of msl is too early to actually be included in this list. His games have improved greatly since his msl loss.
On January 03 2010 08:49 Avidkeystamper wrote: Cancel the hatchery and be boxed into that little choke in HBR? 1 base zerg v. 2 base teran gogo.
It's better than losing the game. Surely that's a pretty basic choice. He was at a disadvantage. He could pretend he wasn't, try and execute a normal counter, fail and lose or he could accept his disadvantage and try and recover later.
These situations can be recovered with clutch play anyway. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl37oL8h4HQ
Thats a pretty bad example given that savior went 9 pool so he can go for earlier aggression and up committed more in the push.
And he didn't lose an overlord.
But I think jaedong could of pulled drones earlier and cancel hatchery for more money, he probably would of avoided being contained though his natural will go up a bit later.
Well, the only way to know for sure is to try it out.
On January 03 2010 09:08 Goragoth wrote: Wow, I think I haven't disagreed with a PR this much since JWD was in charge. (It's cool, each PR writer has his own priorities and it's always interesting to read how others see it). Here are my thoughts:
Stork over Jaedong: Just no. Jaedong is still in the MSL and was knocked out of the OSL by the far and away best player in the world. With similar records there's just no way that Stork should be ranked higher. I get the "more impressive wins" argument but in the end being in leagues matters... a lot. I like both of these players and I think swapping their places would have been more appropriate.
Dropping Bisu to CBNC: Bad move. Flash/Jaedong/Bisu should always be on the PR. They are consistently the best players in the world and have proven it over a span of about two years or more. Without a major slump lasting multiple months they should at least get a low spot somewhere. I'm not a big fan of fickle rankings where hot/cold streaks play such a big role. I know this isn't the majority view but just like when Flash dropped off a while back, you just knew he would be back, so why drop him in the first place? These are the most powerful players in the world. Not "who's hot and who's not". At least that's my view.
Well when Flash dropped off the rank he was 7-2 with reasonable losses (KWANROOOOO). Bisu, after a mediocre month last month, has dropped even more by going 7-5 against BAD competition. =\
Maybe a low spot, but by your own argument, leagues matter, and Bisu is in none. Should we knock off Kwanro or Kal who's in the MSL? Or Zero and Calm who played better? Maybe Sea, but wait, he's been better in PL, which is all Bisu has as well. :>
I'm just not sure who you'd take off to put Bisu on.
No it isn't. Jaedong is 13-3 while stork is 10-4. Jaedong clearly had the better record. So jaedong being 3rd is not because of his results.
yes. "Now we come to the deciding factor for why Jaedong took a fall in December - his ZvT. " he has only won tvz from his ols win and then he loses 3 games, flash flash sea. Watch those 3 games and see if you can decide wether or not his zvt is still awesomeness. you can't.
Movie's rough, unpolished style it's highly likely that Shine will have a field day with him in their upcoming semifinal.
Movie is getting better and better every month, he wouldn't beat zero if Movie was that unpolished. If the author thinks Shine will dominate Movie like he did against Stork, well the author is sadly mistaken. Movie's micro and game sense in pvz is much better than Stork's right now, and that is the difference between Stork and Movie.
Sadly even if Movie advances to the finals he will get crushed by Flash.
On January 03 2010 08:49 Avidkeystamper wrote: Cancel the hatchery and be boxed into that little choke in HBR? 1 base zerg v. 2 base teran gogo.
It's better than losing the game. Surely that's a pretty basic choice. He was at a disadvantage. He could pretend he wasn't, try and execute a normal counter, fail and lose or he could accept his disadvantage and try and recover later.
These situations can be recovered with clutch play anyway. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl37oL8h4HQ
Thats a pretty bad example given that savior went 9 pool so he can go for earlier aggression and up committed more in the push.
And he didn't lose an overlord.
It was an example of being at a huge build order disadvantage (losing 4 of your first drones) and coming up with a cool way of turning it around. Obviously it wasn't the exact same game but I'm not entirely sure why you're nitpicking at that.
Saying that it's Flash he's playing so he can't recover isn't an excuse. If I were to play Flash I'd use the build I thought was strongest. It wouldn't make any difference because Flash is Flash but I'd still not suicide all my units in retarded attacks just out of wishful thinking. Saying that he'd probably lose if he picked the best option doesn't change the fact that the option he chose guaranteed a loss. That's still a wrong choice.
On January 03 2010 09:10 StylishVODs wrote: how u gonna do that vs 3rine+4scvs? you cant, not vs flash.
Well first of all, jaedong could pull like 10 drones, with good micro, it should be enough. Like jaedong shouldn't of made those sunkens. It clearly would of been too late. The biggest mistake were the 2 sunkens he made, it clearly wouldn't make it on time. He should of pulled 10 drones. Delay the bunker and flash for about 5 seconds, the lings will come, make sunken, resume mining.
No it isn't. Jaedong is 13-3 while stork is 10-4. Jaedong clearly had the better record. So jaedong being 3rd is not because of his results.
yes. "Now we come to the deciding factor for why Jaedong took a fall in December - his ZvT. " he has only won tvz from his ols win and then he loses 3 games, flash flash sea. Watch those 3 games and see if you can decide wether or not his zvt is still awesomeness. you can't.
Uh.. The last 3 games were honestly pretty pathetic. Given that a lot could happen, such as bad day, mistake, misjudgement, but they were not good. Flash game 1, subpar muta micro, but best game of his 3 losses. Flash game 2, disputable, but jaedong probably could of done better Sea game 1, uh... no words for this.
On January 03 2010 08:49 Avidkeystamper wrote: Cancel the hatchery and be boxed into that little choke in HBR? 1 base zerg v. 2 base teran gogo.
It's better than losing the game. Surely that's a pretty basic choice. He was at a disadvantage. He could pretend he wasn't, try and execute a normal counter, fail and lose or he could accept his disadvantage and try and recover later.
These situations can be recovered with clutch play anyway. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl37oL8h4HQ
Thats a pretty bad example given that savior went 9 pool so he can go for earlier aggression and up committed more in the push.
And he didn't lose an overlord.
It was an example of being at a huge build order disadvantage (losing 4 of your first drones) and coming up with a cool way of turning it around. Obviously it wasn't the exact same game but I'm not entirely sure why you're nitpicking at that.
It was bo loss, but 12 pool v 8 rax is a bigger bo loss than 9 pool v 8rax.
Movie is so high just because he has good-ish PvZ while Calm is criticised for only being convincing in ZvZ, despite winning a fuckton of games? And Kal so low, wtf.
On January 03 2010 08:49 Avidkeystamper wrote: Cancel the hatchery and be boxed into that little choke in HBR? 1 base zerg v. 2 base teran gogo.
It's better than losing the game. Surely that's a pretty basic choice. He was at a disadvantage. He could pretend he wasn't, try and execute a normal counter, fail and lose or he could accept his disadvantage and try and recover later.
These situations can be recovered with clutch play anyway. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl37oL8h4HQ
No, he loses the game against Flash in that situation too. It's Flash he's playing against here.
And who is Flash playing against here? The argument works both ways.
Jaedong is the undisputed number one Zerg player by leaps and bounds. His mechanics are so good that at one point he could 12hatch every ZvZ and still manage to win.
He might have been guaranteed to lose, but I think the point Stylish is trying to make is, as the best Zerg player in the world, Jaedong could've defended that attack better. And while other Zergs might have done better, this is Jaedong, and Jaedong is held to high standards as he is part of the Lee-Ssang-Taek-Bang quartet.
And that's why I think it's fair that Bisu is out of PR too. Bisu is also held to extremely high standards being an S-class player.
game 1. Jaedong opted to get a third before his muta. Its a mistake vs flashes build but not enough to drop him.
game 2. this game cannot have anything to do with the PR. it was a 7rax, not 8. meaning marinecount will be +1 and an overlord lost. He could have tried something different that would make him look cool though.
game 3. Basically this is what would decide the nr1 or 2 spot. If jaedong wouldn't have turned into flash, who is better than all. He would be in 2 leagues and have had a freakin good december month.
Jaedong has shown and will show I'm right as he has always done. Just by watching his FPView from wcg i can determine he's better than stork lol.
On January 03 2010 08:49 Avidkeystamper wrote: Cancel the hatchery and be boxed into that little choke in HBR? 1 base zerg v. 2 base teran gogo.
It's better than losing the game. Surely that's a pretty basic choice. He was at a disadvantage. He could pretend he wasn't, try and execute a normal counter, fail and lose or he could accept his disadvantage and try and recover later.
These situations can be recovered with clutch play anyway. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl37oL8h4HQ
No, he loses the game against Flash in that situation too. It's Flash he's playing against here.
And who is Flash playing against here? The argument works both ways.
Jaedong is the undisputed number one Zerg player by leaps and bounds. His mechanics are so good that at one point he could 12hatch every ZvZ and still manage to win.
He might have been guaranteed to lose, but I think the point Stylish is trying to make is, as the best Zerg player in the world, Jaedong could've defended that attack better. And while other Zergs might have done better, this is Jaedong, and Jaedong is held to high standards as he is part of the Lee-Ssang-Taek-Bang quartet.
And that's why I think it's fair that Bisu is out of PR too. Bisu is also held to extremely high standards being an S-class player.
Of course the argument goes both ways, but I'm not talking about the start of a game, I'm talking about when Jaedong would be down 1 base to 2 and contained. The argument goes both ways, but it doesn't work both ways.
On January 03 2010 07:50 Plexa wrote: I encourage people to watch calm's play rather than just cite results. I know his result sheet is good, but the PR isn't just about results.
In that case, shouldn't Shine be around 7th? He's delivered fantastically, but hasn't always looked pretty doing it.
On January 03 2010 09:32 StylishVODs wrote: game 1. Jaedong opted to get a third before his muta. Its a mistake vs flashes build but not enough to drop him.
game 2. this game cannot have anything to do with the PR. it was a 7rax, not 8. meaning marinecount will be +1 and an overlord lost. He could have tried something different that would make him look cool though.
game 3. Basically this is what would decide the nr1 or 2 spot. If jaedong wouldn't have turned into flash, who is better than all. He would be in 2 leagues and have had a freakin good december month.
Jaedong will show I'm right as he has always done. Just by watching his FPView from wcg i can determine he's better than stork lol.
I don't see where you are getting with game 3 (the one v sea rite?). He played a terrible game, not worthy enough for #1 or #2. Stork's losses were a bit similar to game 1 too. Its just not enough to lower him on the pr ranking.
FPVOD that jaedong is better? How? Is it because its faster? Thats because zerg tend to be faster than protosses. This is a norm.
sure then don't lower stork. just don't raise him above jaedong.
Stork just dropped out of both leagues and he is raised to nr 2 over jaedong from nr5 who would be in both leagues had he not faced flash and their skill is very similuar. Although I think jaedong is better.
On January 03 2010 08:05 ndralcasid wrote: When was the last time Bisu was out of the PR??
And damn, Movie needs a new picture...
almost never. Even when he deserved to be sometimes, he still got #3 positions in the like because "Bisu's obviously a top 3 player," works for him. ):
and this month, where he would deserve to be on it, he isn't. Look at his TLPD and say to my FACE that his PvZ doesnt look impressive again.
As Plexa said, its not only about the results. His games have not looked as solid as they once were.
There's absolutely no fair way to compare jaedong's series against flash, and calm's series against flash. Jaedong should have been the #2 this month. Jaedong's zvz is as strong, if not stronger than stork's pvz, and his zvt is better than stork's pvz. Guess who's also alive in a starleague? :/
I'm very please that shine and movie are so high up, especially movie. His play lately, except against jaedong, has been very good lately. Hopefully he makes the finals.
EDIT:
On January 03 2010 09:44 StylishVODs wrote: sure then don't lower stork. just don't raise him above jaedong.
Stork just dropped out of both leagues and he is raised to nr 2 over jaedong from nr5 who would be in both leagues had he not faced flash and their skill is very similuar. Although I think jaedong is better.
On January 03 2010 09:44 StylishVODs wrote: sure then don't lower stork. just don't raise him above jaedong.
Stork just dropped out of both leagues and he is raised to nr 2 over jaedong from nr5 who would be in both leagues had he not faced flash and their skill is very similuar. Although I think jaedong is better.
i don't see how this is defendable, stork bias.
However, stork's play is slightly better than jaedong's. This is why he should be in #2.
This is the weirdest part of the season to do a Power Rank because all the riffraff who manage to sneak into the later rounds of the leagues get ranked high.
I'm not saying Movie and Shine are bad, but I really don't expect them to sustain very much success.
I don't have a very high opinion of Kwanro at all. I think he is, at best, a middling zerg.
I still feel like Bisu is, by far, the best Protoss out there. I know there is something to be said about his early exits in the leagues, but it just feels wrong to leave him off the Power Rank.
Well, despite all the immediate backlash - Flash is obvious at first, I was really worried that Stork's amazing play wouldn't be represented in 2nd or 3rd so I'm very happy to see him in 2nd, Jaedong is the obvious other 2nd or 3rd so that's good, rest is a nice read (regardless of my opinions on placements), and Bisu isn't on it - for good reason, this last month.
So it looks great IMO!
Thanks for the quick writeup, an enjoyable read as the PR always is
Hmm....this PR definitely looks a lot different than I was expecting.
I can't say I really agree with Stork > Jaedong...I mean, JD is still in MSL with a good chance to win it, and there's no shame in losing ZvT to Flash. It was only in Game 1 that he really looked bad, Game 2 was more of a brilliant strategy loss (7rax, not 8rax btw). But I love Stork and I do agree he looks really strong lately, so it's not a huge deal.
But the biggest surprise for me has got to be Calm being so low. He put up a good fight against Flash (despite 2hatch muta faggotry every game), and had a good early half of the month. Even if he looked AWFUL against an almost-as-awful Fantasy a little while ago. Still, I would have switched ZerO and Calm's positions...Yeah ZerO got an unlucky draw of opponents, but if he can't beat the top players then he probably doesn't deserve to be that high.
But eh, it was probably a really hard month to place people...I completely agree with Bisu being off the PR, he's just looked bad lately, and being manner-CC'd by CuteAngel isn't a good way to end the month.
Despite random semantics with where people should be at, these are the top 10 players I would make a team out of. I think I remember that being the main criterion for the PR. So, well done.
The January Kespa ranks aren't out yet, however it looks like the monthly composite rank (average of TL + SC2GG power ranks, FPL Trade Value, Elo, and Kespa rank) will be Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Calm, Bisu.
On January 03 2010 11:08 Hinanawi wrote: Hmm....this PR definitely looks a lot different than I was expecting.
I can't say I really agree with Stork > Jaedong...I mean, JD is still in MSL with a good chance to win it, and there's no shame in losing ZvT to Flash. It was only in Game 1 that he really looked bad, Game 2 was more of a brilliant strategy loss (7rax, not 8rax btw). But I love Stork and I do agree he looks really strong lately, so it's not a huge deal.
But the biggest surprise for me has got to be Calm being so low. He put up a good fight against Flash (despite 2hatch muta faggotry every game), and had a good early half of the month. Even if he looked AWFUL against an almost-as-awful Fantasy a little while ago. Still, I would have switched ZerO and Calm's positions...Yeah ZerO got an unlucky draw of opponents, but if he can't beat the top players then he probably doesn't deserve to be that high.
But eh, it was probably a really hard month to place people...I completely agree with Bisu being off the PR, he's just looked bad lately, and being manner-CC'd by CuteAngel isn't a good way to end the month.
The only people that Zero lost to on the PR are people above Zero, so it's not like he's completely out of place.
But, even with good play, I don't think a guy who spent the second half of the month going 4-8 and flopping in proleague, out of OSL and MSL, should honestly be above Calm. His play was pretty good! But a lot of it was really bad -- all of his proleague losses, including a loss to, dun dun dun, Calm!
Switch those two and I'd be happy with the PR. Flash-stork-JD I can handle pretty well if you favor the maps Stork had to play on a lot.
On January 03 2010 11:18 jalstar wrote: The January Kespa ranks aren't out yet, however it looks like the monthly composite rank (average of TL + SC2GG power ranks, FPL Trade Value, Elo, and Kespa rank) will be Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Calm, Bisu.
Jaedong won't be knocked off number one until at least one of his OSLs rotates out. Unless I am mistaken that won't be this month.
Stork over Jaedong doesn't make sense to me. Stork's record was 11-4, compared to JD's 13-3. You dock Jaedong's ZvZ, but went 6-0 in December. His only losses were to Flash and Sea. His ZvP is absurd. His games were incredibly one-sided.
Stork wins one PvT and that gives him a free pass? Even though it was against Flash, and even though it was his only PvT of the month, it's hardly enough for #2.
Also I don't think Calm has done anything to deserve dropping to #9. He's been pretty strong and just happened to run into Flash.
So many things to argue but I don't really want to argue with you, so I'll just say one thing: I don't think it's right to judge ZvT based on "who lost better/worse against Flash," especially Jaedong's series. Yes, he didn't play as well as he could have in the first game, and once he lost the first overlord and decided to 12hatch, there was nothing he could do to prevent the loss in the second. But I think if anyone were to Bo3 or Bo5 Flash right now, Jaedong would still have the best chance (especially if all the games were played consecutively). I guess we'll find out in the MSL though (hopefully...) Comparing losses tells you relatively little - in the end, they still lost. Compare wins to decide who is the best and compare losses to decide who is the worst.
On January 03 2010 11:08 Hinanawi wrote: Hmm....this PR definitely looks a lot different than I was expecting.
I can't say I really agree with Stork > Jaedong...I mean, JD is still in MSL with a good chance to win it, and there's no shame in losing ZvT to Flash. It was only in Game 1 that he really looked bad, Game 2 was more of a brilliant strategy loss (7rax, not 8rax btw). But I love Stork and I do agree he looks really strong lately, so it's not a huge deal.
But the biggest surprise for me has got to be Calm being so low. He put up a good fight against Flash (despite 2hatch muta faggotry every game), and had a good early half of the month. Even if he looked AWFUL against an almost-as-awful Fantasy a little while ago. Still, I would have switched ZerO and Calm's positions...Yeah ZerO got an unlucky draw of opponents, but if he can't beat the top players then he probably doesn't deserve to be that high.
But eh, it was probably a really hard month to place people...I completely agree with Bisu being off the PR, he's just looked bad lately, and being manner-CC'd by CuteAngel isn't a good way to end the month.
The only people that Zero lost to on the PR are people above Zero, so it's not like he's completely out of place.
But, even with good play, I don't think a guy who spent the second half of the month going 4-8 and flopping in proleague, out of OSL and MSL, should honestly be above Calm. His play was pretty good! But a lot of it was really bad -- all of his proleague losses, including a loss to, dun dun dun, Calm!
Switch those two and I'd be happy with the PR. Flash-stork-JD I can handle pretty well if you favor the maps Stork had to play on a lot.
When we both agree about Flash's placement, T3 and I agree on everything else. I love this rank so much more than Riptide's heritage ranks.
Of course it doesn't count at all this month, but Kal was very impressive today as well- Pure is always a solid player, and Kal just dismantled him.
Also, next rank, I guarantee EffOrt will be above Shine.
Let's look at Movie's wins during December shall we? ---> MVP, Zero (x2), Pure, Yellow, TheZerg, Firefist, Pusan
Anyway, your analysis of Calm is quite cynical. It seems you're holding his last month's slump against so much, that you're now unimpressed when he wins at all. If you want to fault Calm for games one and four vs Flash, then by your standards, Jaedong should have plummeted as well, because he was just awful vs Flash.
I think I agree with this rank. Stork over Jaedong is well-explained, and there really isn't much of a gap between the two of them so it's nothing to really rage about.
Although Jaedong's ZvT does worry me a bit, I think I can explain Jaedong's mindset during his losses. (Hypotheses incoming)
Flash 1 - Jaedong's persistence to lay down that third hatchery might have been because he was trying to feel out Flash's response to it. Hyun won with it, so Jaedong tried it. Flash simply learned his lesson from before and poor Jaedong failed horribly with his experiment. His control overall was really bad too which I think I can atrribute to (gasp) intimidation.
Flash 2 - I'm pretty sure Jaedong has settled down and had a cute strategy in mind much like Calm's on HBR. It would've worked too had Flash not made the most well-planned cheesed I've ever seen not done by Nal_ra.
Sea - He's trying to see if he can stop an early Terran push with just lings so he doesn't have to put himself behind economically from making Sunks. It was another experiment, most likely done for when he meets Flash and his imba ZvT again. I mean, giving Flash any form of economic advantage in TvZ is basically handing him the win and Sea obviously makes for the best Flash dummy at the moment. Jaedong failed though, sad.
Also, notice how good and Flash-esque Hiya's ZvT was in the Hwaseung's series versus eStro. Clearly somebody's practicing ZvFlash in Hwaseung House, and I bet it isn't Killer.
EDIT: Looking at the rank again, Calm deserves higher. He hasn't looked very solid but he did manage to put up some respectable results.
On January 03 2010 08:49 Avidkeystamper wrote: Cancel the hatchery and be boxed into that little choke in HBR? 1 base zerg v. 2 base teran gogo.
It's better than losing the game. Surely that's a pretty basic choice. He was at a disadvantage. He could pretend he wasn't, try and execute a normal counter, fail and lose or he could accept his disadvantage and try and recover later.
These situations can be recovered with clutch play anyway. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl37oL8h4HQ
So, Calm was in a even better position than Jaedong-No lost overlord, had high ground. Are you still defending going 1 base?
Finally Bisu is off the list. I still don't agree with many of the rankings (par for the course), but at least SKT1 isn't all over the place with little justification as usual.
I don`t know what kind of drugs you have taken before you wrote this PR, but I want some of it!
The worst PR I have ever seen, the only position (and text for that matter) I can agree on is Flash. Everything else is just god awful and not even consistent. Questioning JDs ZvZ when hes won every single game since last month in a convincing matter. Praise Storks PvZ as the best, despite him losing going SAIR\reaver vs MUTAS and looking totally helpless vs Effort. When you at the same time have Bisu on a 7game PvZ winstreak dispatching every Zerg he faces. And dont even get me started on Calms and ZerOs placement, you cite ingame strengths as the reason for ZerOs placement and then knock Effort of the list despite looking just as good in his losses and having a better overall stats the last month and looking insanely strong in many of his wins. I am just gonna quit now as I assume this is just a joke from your side to see if you can create more of a shitstorm than JWDs rankings could.
This PR is a joke. Zero should not be on the PR, Calm is WAY too low, Stork is WAY too high. Sea should not be on that list and should be replaced by either Effort or Violet. Kal needs to be higher.
On January 03 2010 15:36 Holgerius wrote: <SuperArc mode>Jaedong would have beaten Flash in a Bo5. Therefore, Jaedong should be ranked higher than Flash</SuperArc mode>
On January 03 2010 15:49 Manit0u wrote: Perhaps it's too early to say so, but I predict Kal to climb the steps while Calm dropping off of them completely when the next PR is out.
I've only ever watched three games where Flash has cheesed someone in a series that mattered. One of those just happened.
Honestly, I count that as a point for Jaedong instead of one against him. If the best player in the world, known for playing very consistently and almost never cheesing, decides to 7-rax you, you can take that as a compliment.
I really don't see why that is counting against Jaedong. That being said, Stork and Jaedong can be tied for 2nd place as far as I'm concerned: it's a coin flip on which gets which at this point. I'd lean towards Jaedong simply based on him being alive in a starleague, but I'm not upset about it.
And why is there always so much Kwarno hate? He's quite possibly one of the most interesting Zerg players in Starcraft right now. He has a chance against any S-class player in the game simply because you cannot practice properly against him. I really do hope for a Jaedong vs. Kwarno MSL final even though I'm not usually a huge fan of ZvZ.
I think Calm deserves to be higher , just like Zero he played a good series vs Flash and he probably has the best ZvZ right now and with the best players in ZvZ i doubt anything can happen except for them winning . Plexa after Calm seeing how bad Pure defended against 2 hat in the first game i don't see nothing wrong with him trying it again in the second game . It was Pure who played bad that series not Calm and it doesn't matter what build he used .
I don't mind Zero being ranked so high , but except for an impressive series vs Flash , even thought i think Calm showed better games .... Zero he failed in every other league in the same month . Losing to Movie and Stork twise certainly isn't something that he "shouldn't be ashamed" . He has one of the best ZvP and to blow it that bad against Movie i didn't particularly watch the games against Stork , but his showing against Movie was bad . Attacking at the worst possible angle on HBR while all he needed to do was stop the push to win the game . On fighting spirit he didn't defend from a zealot rush that was coming cross position to his third after that Movie got all sorts of advantages that even if Zero played well he couldn't do nothing ... Not to mention that he lost to Calm and shuttle in PL , and if there is something that he shouldn't be ashamed of losing is ZvZ against Calm .
I don't even mind placeing Stork #2 althought i think he hasn't done that much to deserve the spot . I just don't agree that a player who is out of both leagues deserve to be called the second best player in the world .
And for Calm "He was only able to win (on excellent ZvP maps mind you) by resorting to two hatch muta twice (only being forced to do so in game 1)."
Apparently 2 hat mutas is all it takes to kill a player of Pure's caliber , maybe if Pure defended it Calm would have played diffrently in the third game .... Calm's ZvT and ZvZ are probably the best in the world and if not certainly are one of the best and his ZvP is nothing to sneeze at , definetly good enough that if he uses 2 hat muta build and win with it , it wouldn't be held against him . I just don't agree with the placements if Stork is ranked high even thought he lost to a solid ZvP player , why was Calm ranked so low when he put up a good fight just like Zero and apparently not JD who got 7 raxed against the best TvZer ever .
So far all the reasonings for protoss players losing is he got cheesed / map is imbalanced a player is sniper in a MU . When a zerg player loses OMG he played so bad which in fact they didn't it's just that the other player played better (Flash and lowlives) , but even when a zerg beats a protoss he only did it because he cheesed on a favourible ZvP map . Since when was a zergling runby cheese ? Protoss players build only 1 freaking cannon for the longest time hoping to find some sort of advantage and when they get punished by geting greedy it was the zerg that cheesed not that the protoss played bad ..........
On January 03 2010 15:49 Manit0u wrote: Perhaps it's too early to say so, but I predict Kal to climb the steps while Calm dropping off of them completely when the next PR is out.
Yeah but thats the same for Stork . He doesn't have a league to play and both Calm and Stork are doing fairly good in PL . Stork would most definitely fall next month just like Bisu effort zero and Calm this month , but Calm played well last month and deserves a high spot for the month . Stork being the best protoss at the moment doesn't meen much when he gets eliminated by rokies with solid MUs .
On January 03 2010 15:30 Oystein wrote: I don`t know what kind of drugs you have taken before you wrote this PR, but I want some of it!
The worst PR I have ever seen, the only position (and text for that matter) I can agree on is Flash. Everything else is just god awful and not even consistent. Questioning JDs ZvZ when hes won every single game since last month in a convincing matter. Praise Storks PvZ as the best, despite him losing going SAIR\reaver vs MUTAS and looking totally helpless vs Effort. When you at the same time have Bisu on a 7game PvZ winstreak dispatching every Zerg he faces. And dont even get me started on Calms and ZerOs placement, you cite ingame strengths as the reason for ZerOs placement and then knock Effort of the list despite looking just as good in his losses and having a better overall stats the last month and looking insanely strong in many of his wins. I am just gonna quit now as I assume this is just a joke from your side to see if you can create more of a shitstorm than JWDs rankings could.
I stopped reading when you started kissing bisus ass
Bisu got manner CC'd by Frozean.
FROZEAN
I don't care if he 3-0'd flash and jaedong in a 1 v 2, you get bm'd by frozean and you have no right to be ranked
On January 03 2010 08:05 ndralcasid wrote: When was the last time Bisu was out of the PR??
And damn, Movie needs a new picture...
almost never. Even when he deserved to be sometimes, he still got #3 positions in the like because "Bisu's obviously a top 3 player," works for him. ):
and this month, where he would deserve to be on it, he isn't. Look at his TLPD and say to my FACE that his PvZ doesnt look impressive again.
It doesn't look impressive.
But was Stork's ? He only beat zero twise in PL . His 1 win against Shine has no meaning since he utterly failed in the other 2 games and they weren't even close unlike the PR suggests .
Excellent individual league performance (OSL semis); very good record in proleague (6-2); strength in all matchups (top-notch ZvP and ZvZ, and the best ZvFlash yet); recent championship win (in case you're not sure whether to grant the benefit of the doubt).
Add all that up and you get Calm. 9th place? What the fuck?
On January 03 2010 15:30 Oystein wrote: I don`t know what kind of drugs you have taken before you wrote this PR, but I want some of it!
The worst PR I have ever seen, the only position (and text for that matter) I can agree on is Flash. Everything else is just god awful and not even consistent. Questioning JDs ZvZ when hes won every single game since last month in a convincing matter. Praise Storks PvZ as the best, despite him losing going SAIR\reaver vs MUTAS and looking totally helpless vs Effort. When you at the same time have Bisu on a 7game PvZ winstreak dispatching every Zerg he faces. And dont even get me started on Calms and ZerOs placement, you cite ingame strengths as the reason for ZerOs placement and then knock Effort of the list despite looking just as good in his losses and having a better overall stats the last month and looking insanely strong in many of his wins. I am just gonna quit now as I assume this is just a joke from your side to see if you can create more of a shitstorm than JWDs rankings could.
I stopped reading when you started kissing bisus ass
Bisu got manner CC'd by Frozean.
FROZEAN
I don't care if he 3-0'd flash and jaedong in a 1 v 2, you get bm'd by frozean and you have no right to be ranked
Lol where did I suggest Bisu should be ranked, and where did I kiss his ass? Have he NOT won his 7 last PvZs and playing some rock solid PvZ lately?
I did nothing but state facts, maybe you should work on your reading comprehension before start throwing around mindless accusations? Not to mention you manage to make possibly the most retarded statement ever in your last sentence.
On January 03 2010 07:35 iamho wrote: calm number 9? what the fuck? he went 11-5 in a month with 8 games against flash, shine, fantasy, zero, and effort. 2 hatch muta is a legitimate build too
and its "just zvz" is a pretty bad excuse for calm going 6-1 this month in it
also calm has won his most recent encounter with every player ranks 2-8
Yeah it is "just ZvZ that's not a MU that requires skill ...." , yet beating Zero and Shine in ZvZ is probably equall to Stork beating Bisu and Best in PvP but PvP takes skills to win in it and in PvP it's because of the skill they win and not because " it's just a PvP and anything can happen" .
sarcasm , although a little bit true based on the PR
He didn't even use the timing of a 2 hatch in the first game against Pure . That was a 3 hatch muta timing but due to the third hatch dying he had made drones and saved up for 6 larvae worth of mutas and his plan was to damage the protoss with your mutas even up the early dissadvantage and play your planned game from there , Pure didn't have the necessary defences to stop it and got rolled .
On January 03 2010 08:49 Avidkeystamper wrote: Cancel the hatchery and be boxed into that little choke in HBR? 1 base zerg v. 2 base teran gogo.
It's better than losing the game. Surely that's a pretty basic choice. He was at a disadvantage. He could pretend he wasn't, try and execute a normal counter, fail and lose or he could accept his disadvantage and try and recover later.
These situations can be recovered with clutch play anyway. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl37oL8h4HQ
HBR doesnt have a backdoor entrance to your main.
If the terran blocks the entrance and bunkers behind, its gg.
Okay now that everyone's got the rage out of their system (hopefully) in a bit I'll go over why I ranked players where I did and hopefully you'll see how I approached this ranking and then everything should make sense.
On January 03 2010 15:36 Holgerius wrote: <SuperArc mode>Jaedong would have beaten Flash in a Bo5. Therefore, Jaedong should be ranked higher than Flash</SuperArc mode>
I was one of the first ones who said the winner of their bo3 should be ranked #1. Why do you say that? :/
On January 03 2010 15:30 Oystein wrote: I don`t know what kind of drugs you have taken before you wrote this PR, but I want some of it!
The worst PR I have ever seen, the only position (and text for that matter) I can agree on is Flash. Everything else is just god awful and not even consistent. Questioning JDs ZvZ when hes won every single game since last month in a convincing matter. Praise Storks PvZ as the best, despite him losing going SAIR\reaver vs MUTAS and looking totally helpless vs Effort. When you at the same time have Bisu on a 7game PvZ winstreak dispatching every Zerg he faces. And dont even get me started on Calms and ZerOs placement, you cite ingame strengths as the reason for ZerOs placement and then knock Effort of the list despite looking just as good in his losses and having a better overall stats the last month and looking insanely strong in many of his wins. I am just gonna quit now as I assume this is just a joke from your side to see if you can create more of a shitstorm than JWDs rankings could.
I stopped reading when you started kissing bisus ass
Bisu got manner CC'd by Frozean.
FROZEAN
I don't care if he 3-0'd flash and jaedong in a 1 v 2, you get bm'd by frozean and you have no right to be ranked
I hate to tell you this, but you know, Frozean kind of can beat anyone. He's actually extremely good if he's on his game. He's just off it soooo often.
edit : I think the ranking of the first 4 is fine, it's just that after it it gets a little finicky. Movie has beaten no one impressive besides Zero in the last month, and Zero had a bo3 against Flash at the same time. I probably wouldn't even put Movie on the power rank. I might move Zero down one, putting Calm above him and Kal below. Sea/Effort/Violet would round out my bottom 3. CBNC people would be like, Best, Bisu, Bogus, Kwanro. Violet could be swapped out for Kwanro or Bisu, 10 is kind of indeterminate. Violet/Effort/Sea all fall into similar boats, the only difference is that Violet plays utterly hideous games on Outsider.
Also, Haksoo/Secret has been doing really well recently in pvp. Why has nobody noticed?
Beeing a JD hater certainly helps placing him below Stork .
If this is supposed to be based off December where JD didnt loose a single ZvZ nor ZvP (Only got killed by the best player in the world, and had a missfortunate game vs sea) I'm abit confused.
I think the argument that JDs games have looked "worse" than Storks are just phoney since when you look at quite a few of the PvZs Stork has played this month, you'd easily question his play just as much if not more.
I wont argue that Stork is playing amazing Starcraft, and I love the fact that he does, but I just dont know about the arguments as to place JD below Stork this month.
Okay let's deal with Calm at #9 first. The reason Calm is on this power rank is because his ZvZ is capable of winning games. November was a grace month, he was able to stay low in the PR despite a shitty record on the strength of his past performances with a tagline basically saying, prove me right in December - Calm was not able to do that this month. The reason Calm dropped is that his ZvT and ZvP look terrible. Saying that in light of his series against Flash may seem contradictory, but if you look at the strength of his games across the entire month (not just the games on 01/01/10) then it is clear that his ZvT is not up to par.
Examples. 1) Fantasy vs Calm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-H57nXDSBQ&feature=player_embedded While Fantasy is sucking atm (relatively of course), he still is pretty sharp so a convincing win here would do great things to alleviate concerns about his ZvT. This game can be divided into halves - pre-Hive and post-Hive. pre-Hive Calm isn't doing anything impressive, but is able to keep the game even and everything looks pretty solid. He's a little careless with his Mutalisks, but going 3hatch gives him that extra bit of flexibility with them (since he's not relying on them to do as much damage as a 2 hatch.). Up until now Calm's playing alright. Then he makes a Hive and the game falls to pieces. Here is all the mistakes Calm made - Poor engagement of Fantasy's troops when Fantasy was first pushing with tank/vessel (this was horrendous) - Failure to shut down/prevent Fantasy's third - Failure to get a 4th gas to keep up in the macro game with fantasy - Reaction time on drops was abysmal - Unit control, on the whole, was very very poor Calm looked terrible in the 2nd half of this game (watch the vod if you don't beleive me). The reason this game went on so long is that Fantasy played pretty terrible as well (poor vessel control, losing shitloads of marines/tanks to idle lurkers etc). This game just makes me go, woah - maybe your losses against Justin in November weren't just a fluke after all?
Example 2 - Calm vs Piano http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l24YSAbxSBg&feature=player_embedded Yes, Calm won this game. He pulled wayyy ahead at the start with a cute 2hatch lurker build. I'm not going to deduct marks for that, he's entitled to throw the curve ball every now and then. Once he got this advantage, he proceeded into somewhat of a normal game. Despite this advantage the game dragged into post-Hive game and once again Calm falls apart. Every single problem noted above is also present in his game play here. Fortunately, Piano isn't very good and with such a large advantage it was always going to be Calm's game to lose. Nevertheless, this game reveals that Calm's late game problems are not isolated to one game. It's inherent in his ZvT style.
Unfortunately, his game against Miracle didn't really reveal anything. Except that he loves to use the exact same strategy on Tornado over and over again. Miracle killed himself before any real information could be gathered about Calm.
Example 3 - Calm vs Flash Game 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwYZWBoVvhw&feature=player_embedded Okay the previous game have shown that Calm's Mutalisk control isn't great, but this game shows that when Clam shows up to play, his mutalisks are terrible. Calm was never in control of this game - his 2 hatch muta did not do nearly enough damage for him to call it even and when he lost most of his mutalisks the game was over. The rest was just a formality (other Zerg's have gg'd at the point in the past, like hero vs Light in the MSL). This does nothing to alleviate any concerns about Calm's ZvT.
Example 4 - Calm vs Flash Game 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWkj0hufrlo&feature=player_embedded As a Calm fan, this is what I want to see!! Vintage calm in action. The hidden third base in this game was the perfect touch to make this strategy lethal. Despite Clam controlling the mutalisks initially, Calm settled in to finish the game and exhibited the control that we expect from him. Flash had a hole in his defense, Calm saw it, exploited it, and took the game. Despite a win here, this does nothing but reassure me that Calm's mid game/early game is top notch, its the late midgame and late game that we have big problems with!
Example 5 - Calm vs Flash Game 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jJKo8KFTjo&feature=player_embedded This is Calm's glorious redemption game. For once he deviates from his standard ZvT style and hugs a faster 4th gas like his life depended on it. In this game Calm does make mistakes, but they're not basic mistakes they are things like deciding when and where and how to attack Flash's turtle and whatnot. This is exactly what I had been looking for all month - but one game is never enough to redeem two months of playing like crap.
Example 6 - Calm vs Flash Game 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YdpeV36gYM&feature=player_embedded Just like his other ZvT's, Calm falls apart once reaching Hive. This just goes to show that game 3 was an anomaly, and this is what you should be expecting from Calm usually.
There you have it, a month of ZvT - and the conclusion? Calm played poor ZvT in December. After a lackluster November he had a lot of tough questions to answer. How many did he answer? None. Calm's ZvT has not looked like top 10 material, not by a long shot.
So then we turn to his ZvP. In essence if you have two good matchups and are making the semifinals of either OSL or MSL you're pretty much guaranteed a good spot on the PR. With Calm's ZvZ being good, and his ZvT being bad (relative to other players matchups in the top ten) his ZvP better be good!
Unfortunately, we can' say this about his ZvP. November also begged the questions - Calm, can you play good ZvP!? He had a very questionable loss to Best in the MSL (a game which he should have won) and he gained a huge lead over Sangho on Outsider only to almost blow it entirely. There were some serious doubts over his ZvP, but if this was just Calm having an off day or Calm getting lazy in the end game (see a theme here btw?) then surely he would be able to crush Pure, a nothing special protoss.
That was not the case. In game 1 he was at a severe disadvantage against Pure after being cannon rushed. But he was fortunate that Pure choked and misread his 2 hatch muta - basically gifted him the game. In game 2, Calm went 2 hatch on el nino (great ZvP map btw) and barely was able to fend of Pure. Indeed, after losing his mutalisks the game was almost equal. However, Pure once against choked up hard and Calm went on to take the series. Those games revealed absolutely nothing about his ZvP condition, if anything, it raised more questions about it. With two poor months of ZvP how can anyone justifiably say that Calm's ZvP is top ten worthy? You can't.
In summation, Calm late game in both matchups tends to spiral out of control. His early/mid game play is really good (hence why he wins zvzs) but his mid-late/late game play is comparatively terrible. As such, with such a huge glaring inherent flaw in his game play, he deserves 9th. Am I being too harsh on Calm? That's a very real possibility, I'm a fan who's very harsh on players he likes. But I think the fact that Kwanro has been able to play solid games in every matchup, and not just ZvZ gives him the edge this month. Yes, Effort has played better than Calm this month. And in a perfect wold Effort would be in and calm would be CBNC - but effort did drop out of both leagues and has only had proleague to worry about for most of the month. Expect effort to come rising back in as some of the rookies crumble under the pressure.
Oh and why is Zero ranked above him? Because Zero doesn't lack the same late game faults that Calm does, but still has a strong mid-early game (not as strong though).
Okay, let's do Jaedong vs Stork. Hopefully we can all agree that if Stork isn't #2 then Jaedong is, and Stork is #3. I would like to emphasize the quality that distinguished the top three from everyone else - and that was consistency across the board in December. All three were destroying Proleague and whatever leagues they were in (up until Ro8 anyway).
The task this month was to determine which played stronger in December - Stork or Jaedong. Personally, I beleive that both are playing very very well at the moment and separating them is almost impossible. So basically you have Flash way out ahead, then Stork and Jaedong trailing in his wake together.
Now let's get to the games. In the OSL Stork played Kwanro and Flash. Jaedong played Movie and go.go. I don't know about you, but I would much rather have Jaedong's opponents than Stork's opponents! So basically, Stork's OSL group was harder. Jaedong destroyed Movie and go.go like he should, so really he shouldn't be penalized for having the weaker group, but Stork does get bonus points for defeating Flash in an impressive game (despite all the imba in his favour).
So let's take a look at their respective Ro8 opponents. Jaedong's opponent has a career record of 99-43 in TvZ (70% including unofficial games). Stork's opponent has a career record of 30-14 in ZvP (68% including unofficial games). While Stork's opponent is newer than Flash, and doesn't boast the same reputation as him, Shine is actually a beast in ZvP. To say that they were equally hard would be a bit of a lie, but Shine really does deserve credit for his ZvP.
Jaedong lost 0-2 in poor games. Stork lost 1-2 in mostly close games. So who wins the Ro8 battle? Difficult to tell, but personally I lean slightly towards Stork since Jaedong did look so helpless against Flash.
Jaedong is being spoonfed victims in the MSL. That's thanks to the retarded KeSPA seeding format - and so Jaedong gets to look forward to two easy round of firefist and Stats. Other players got legitimately difficult opponents (like Flash) but Jaedong gets to cruise through. I don't value Jaedong's MSL run much for that reason. He's been spoonfed scrubs - just like in proleague. Stork dispatches of scrubs as well, or at least he did in December.
Turning to Proleague, Jaedong probably has an edge over Stork. Stork losing to Effort is comparable to Jaedong losing to Sea. Stork trounced Bisu/Best while Jaedong got Roro/Hogil in their mirrors. Jaedong semi-cheesed Movie and dispatched tester without too much problem so his ZvP is still very much intact (not that we were ever questioning it). Stork didn't run into any Terrans. With all that set, I would say that they are about even. But then Stork lost to hero earlier in the month. That game is an anomaly as far as I am concerned, but with the separation between these two so fine it does give Jaedong a very small edge in PL.
To try and force some separation between the two I concerned their November records. Both were impresssive. Jaedong had some key losses to crap zergs, while Stork has a really terrible end of november despite a solid showing earlier in the month. There isn't anything useful to be gained by looking 2 months into the past really.
As I already outlined, the deciding factor was weighing up between Stork's PvZ and Jaedong's ZvT. Looking at all the games over the month, my confidence in Jaedong's vT has been shaken while my confidence in Stork's vZ is only scarred. This does largely come from comparing Shine-Stork/Effort-Stork against Flash-Jaedong/Sea-Jaedong. People will disagree with this, and that's not surprising given the rampant Jaedong fanbase, or minute separation between these two in december.
Let me quickly deal with some of the other major complaints.
Violet Violet's playing basically two matchups in proleauge at the moment - mostly vP with some vT thrown in on the side. Violet is playing well at the moment, but really he isn't exhibiting play worthy of top 10 or CBNC. Indeed, he has 2 painful and glaring losses to weak Protosses. With only proleague to practice for you really have to stand out if you want to be noticed for this ranking. Violet just isn't standing out at the moment, and that's why he's not on these lists.
Zero is too high! No he's not. Lol. He played more games than anyone else this month (iirc) AND he had the toughest draw of any progamer. I mean seriously, he had movie in the OSL, Flash in the MSL and was the woongjin ace through this whole time (where he ran into Stork TWICE). Thats a Jaedong-esque workload. Throughout this all, he never looked hopeless in his games and put up a good fight in all his matches (even taking a game off of flash). He had a really rough month, but he still is one of the most skilled zergs there are.
Kwanro is too high! As the fill-in PR writer, I will admit that ranking Kwanro this month was difficult. I stand by his placing at #8 however. He's on a 6-0 streak, and despite his inconsistencies, hasn't really lost to anyone surprising other than Bogus. Indeed, Kwanro looks like he's going to make an MSL semifinal again. Whether or not he is better than Calm comes down to the question who is more likely to win a game against player X? If X is a Zerg, then Calm is more likely to. If X is not a Zerg, then Calm will probably end up playing with hive tech (as he has done with all his vT's, and most vP's in November) and as such will be vulnerable if he doesn't have an advantage. Kwanro you know will exploit any early game advantages and make it a mid game win. Kwanro is just better at Calm at converting the almost won games to won games - and both players are very capable of getting games to the almost won stage. As such, Kwanro's better conversation rate made me put him over Calm this month.
Zero had that workload and only happened to win one of those games against strong players. Having a though month doesnt mean you can lose pretty much every big game. If it were Bisu everyone would be screaming massive slump and laughing at the idea of him being in the top10.
And i dont really mind seeing Kwanro instead of Violet, but saying that Violet isnt standing out atm doesnt make much sense to me. Is Kwanro standing out this past month? More than Violet, Effort or even Bisu? Nah.
I still fail to see why Movie is so high, especially compared to Kal. Calm is flamed for inconsistency outside ZvZ, while Movie only did good in PvZ, lost two of his four non-PvZ games and got thoroughly dismantled by Kal in a game that made him look like a scrub. Movie simply hasn't shown much outside of PvZ yet, and ranking a man that's only remarkable in one matchup as #5 seems wrong. Especially since Kal's month was just as good without even playing his statistically strongest matchup, the PvT.
I remember when FBH was ripping shit apart in TvZ and TvT and people debated ranking him at all only because he had poor TvP. Now there are people with unproven matchups all over the power rank :/
Review the second match in Jaedong's series against Flash, can you tell me that Jaedong reacted as good as he could have? (clue: you can't).
Ok, please explain how he could have reacted better. As a ZvT player I want to know this. I'm sorry but the only possible way he could have "reacted better" is by heavily outmicroing Flash but that is not JD reacting better but Flash reacting worse. From the moment JD sent his overlord across the map and 12 hatched it was pretty much game over.
And then you forgive Stork's loss to Shine because it was "semi-cheese" when it was something that's easily stoppable. Compare that to Flash's build which, whether you call it cheese or not, is essentially a hard counter to 12 hatch and there's nothing really the Zerg can do.
You actually comparing Shines ZvP with Flashs TvZ? And then you use stats from unofficial games? Hes 54% winrate in actual games and have only recently scraped by wins vs good players (unless you consider beating Kal who scouts your 2hatch hydra and then proceed to make no cannons, getting solid wins). Honestly who cares if he can get a good winrate beating nonames in minor league and offliners? How does beating nonames like Crank (who loses a lot even in minor league) or actually, prove anything about his ZvP? Most A-team Zergs will probably get good results there also.
Sure his ZvP have looked decent lately (or at least his early\mid game) but drawing conclusions that he is a ZvP beast from a few wins on favorable maps during a time when Z>P in general seem a bit early to me at least. Maybe he have really become good at it, but lets give him some more time to prove it.
Now are you honestly telling me you think Stork have looked GOOD in his PvZ losses? He looked awful vs Effort, and threw away a huge lead in game1 vs Shine (killed a drone, got a big BO advantage with sair\reaver vs mutas). Winning a solid game2 and then game3 Shine raped him from start to finish, having his muta rape the main while he defended easily back home against the zeals. How you can rate that as much better than 1 loss vs godmode flash and 1 brilliant Cheese I do not know. Not to mention you hail Storks PvZ as the best when hes 5-5 in his last 10 games while heavily questioning JDs ZvT for losing twice (with 1 brilliant cheese I might add) vs godmode flash and a loss vs Sea and still being 6-4 in his last 10 ZvTs, and also questioning his ZvZ despite having won 6 of them the last month just makes no sense and is highly inconsistent. (Take note I even like Stork more than Jaedong so this is not the fanboyism you use to sweep away doubters)
About ZerO, yeah having a big workload is terrible, but that dont excuse losing every game vs hard opponents you play and even a few vs mediocre ones while not really beating anyone good beside taking a game of Flash. (No pure is not good, neither is Yarnc these days). Had Flash or JD done that you would have wanted their head on a plate. While ZerO is rewarded with staying put at his spot despite dropping out of both leagues and losing important acematches. Yes he is a good player and I kind of like him, but not looking helpless in his losses (I agree in several of them he played well) don`t make them go away and every time the stakes got high he lost.
Bisu out of the PR? Okay, sure... Fantasy? I can understand that too. But Jaedong over Stork this month when Jaedong has had a far superior record and has shown many plays that have completely outclassed his opponents? I don't think so.
How the heck did Sea move up after losing to Violet, Flash, and Flying? If you consider his win against Jaedong to be of any importance you've gotten your priorities completely mixed up. How the heck is Calm so low? If you're going solely with quality of play (as it seems you are with some of these rankings) then Calm should be higher than Movie and Zero... Speaking of Zero, the kid has terrible record during the month of December yet he stays in #6 position because of his workload? Lol...look at Flash, Fantasy, Bisu, and Jaedong over the majority of their career.
And Shine taking the number 4 spot despite *barely* making it past Stork and after a humiliating loss to Bisu? Sorry, but Shine doesn't do a thing for me when it comes to creative play or consistency.
Also, speaking of consistency, how is Violet not on this PR??? As much as I hate all of KT Rolster and Protoss players, Violet is as consistent as ever and has delivered results. Please bring riptide back to write these PR's. His were at least logical, consistent, and well-thought out. This is possibly the most bogus and biased PR ever...
you know, your update has actually changed my mind.
thank you for taking the time for writing it out, and even as a calm-violet fan, i do support it despite the heat you're getting from alot of people (including me, initially)
Unfortunately, the PRs have generally deteriorated in quality since new management, and this one is now the bottom of the barrel.
It seems like random picks of whoever he likes at the time, without any regard to records. Stork, out of both leagues, at #2? #8, maybe. If you go by proleague records, you have Shine at #4, and Bisu out completely (when Bisu 2-0ed the poor guy in a single proleague match). Some players (KAL) deserve WAAAAAAY higher placement. #10, really? He hit a new ELO peak. Have you WATCHED his games? I really doubt it.
I'm not going to give my own take on the top 10, but this isn't anywhere close. I think it's clear Teamliquid needs a new person to do PowerRanks. I generally have a few qualms here or there, but this is the first power rank that's just been godawful
I don't really like half the text about Sea's spot, its so full of "ifs", hopes and good wishes... I can tell you like him even whitout looking at the MBC pic xD
if Flash weren't dominating this matchup so hard right now we would all be talking about how amazing Sea's TvT is. His TvZ really connected in December and he was able to scalp Jaedong. While his TvP is questionable, his TvT-esque victory over Stork at the very very end of November still is lingering in the back of my mind and gives me faith that his TvP is actually up to scratch. As usual, Sea is bubbling with talent and promise but is absent from both leagues. One day he'll break into a league and win it all... one day...
Also, as others have said, not qualifing for leagues is worse than getting out of them.
this pr is great! unlike a lot of the recent ones, you basically watched the games and ranked which player looked the best to you (without being too tied to stats). that's what the pr should be.
only big problem after reading plexa's reasoning is sea. if anything, sea should be #10 just for being out of both leagues (plus I think kal is playing better than sea right now..)
I like it, well thought out I would swap Sea with Calm thou as for all the Stork > JD drama I'm with Plexa here, none of JD's wins were particullarly impressive (well, his game against Canata was nice), on the other hand all of his losses were pathetic It was sad watching him being completely helpless against Flash and the game against Sea... how blind must you be to call that a slip up ?
Good rank. I'd still have JD over stork. Yes, JD's play probably haven't been as good as Stork's, but the zerg has just been dominating everything besides his losses to Flash, which is not surprising...who the heck can actually dominate Flash currently in a Bo series? Also, he's still in the MSL. Surprised to see Calm actually fall a few places despite his recent performance, but thinking it over, it makes sense.
On January 03 2010 22:49 Plexa wrote: Okay, let's do Jaedong vs Stork. Hopefully we can all agree that if Stork isn't #2 then Jaedong is, and Stork is #3. I would like to emphasize the quality that distinguished the top three from everyone else - and that was consistency across the board in December. All three were destroying Proleague and whatever leagues they were in (up until Ro8 anyway).
The task this month was to determine which played stronger in December - Stork or Jaedong. Personally, I beleive that both are playing very very well at the moment and separating them is almost impossible. So basically you have Flash way out ahead, then Stork and Jaedong trailing in his wake together.
Now let's get to the games. In the OSL Stork played Kwanro and Flash. Jaedong played Movie and go.go. I don't know about you, but I would much rather have Jaedong's opponents than Stork's opponents! So basically, Stork's OSL group was harder. Jaedong destroyed Movie and go.go like he should, so really he shouldn't be penalized for having the weaker group, but Stork does get bonus points for defeating Flash in an impressive game (despite all the imba in his favour).
So let's take a look at their respective Ro8 opponents. Jaedong's opponent has a career record of 99-43 in TvZ (70% including unofficial games). Stork's opponent has a career record of 30-14 in ZvP (68% including unofficial games). While Stork's opponent is newer than Flash, and doesn't boast the same reputation as him, Shine is actually a beast in ZvP. To say that they were equally hard would be a bit of a lie, but Shine really does deserve credit for his ZvP.
Jaedong lost 0-2 in poor games. Stork lost 1-2 in mostly close games. So who wins the Ro8 battle? Difficult to tell, but personally I lean slightly towards Stork since Jaedong did look so helpless against Flash.
Jaedong is being spoonfed victims in the MSL. That's thanks to the retarded KeSPA seeding format - and so Jaedong gets to look forward to two easy round of firefist and Stats. Other players got legitimately difficult opponents (like Flash) but Jaedong gets to cruise through. I don't value Jaedong's MSL run much for that reason. He's been spoonfed scrubs - just like in proleague. Stork dispatches of scrubs as well, or at least he did in December.
Turning to Proleague, Jaedong probably has an edge over Stork. Stork losing to Effort is comparable to Jaedong losing to Sea. Stork trounced Bisu/Best while Jaedong got Roro/Hogil in their mirrors. Jaedong semi-cheesed Movie and dispatched tester without too much problem so his ZvP is still very much intact (not that we were ever questioning it). Stork didn't run into any Terrans. With all that set, I would say that they are about even. But then Stork lost to hero earlier in the month. That game is an anomaly as far as I am concerned, but with the separation between these two so fine it does give Jaedong a very small edge in PL.
To try and force some separation between the two I concerned their November records. Both were impresssive. Jaedong had some key losses to crap zergs, while Stork has a really terrible end of november despite a solid showing earlier in the month. There isn't anything useful to be gained by looking 2 months into the past really.
As I already outlined, the deciding factor was weighing up between Stork's PvZ and Jaedong's ZvT. Looking at all the games over the month, my confidence in Jaedong's vT has been shaken while my confidence in Stork's vZ is only scarred. This does largely come from comparing Shine-Stork/Effort-Stork against Flash-Jaedong/Sea-Jaedong. People will disagree with this, and that's not surprising given the rampant Jaedong fanbase, or minute separation between these two in december.
This logic makes sense, but we have different interpretations of the OSL games. Except for the game stork won, he looked utterly silly against Shine. The 0-2 loss is much more credit to Flash for playing strategically than a "minus" to jaedong. His reaction to a strategy he had never seen before in the second game was probably better than anything anyone would have done in such a situation. You can't even compare those games.
On January 03 2010 22:49 Plexa wrote: Okay, let's do Jaedong vs Stork. Hopefully we can all agree that if Stork isn't #2 then Jaedong is, and Stork is #3. I would like to emphasize the quality that distinguished the top three from everyone else - and that was consistency across the board in December. All three were destroying Proleague and whatever leagues they were in (up until Ro8 anyway).
The task this month was to determine which played stronger in December - Stork or Jaedong. Personally, I beleive that both are playing very very well at the moment and separating them is almost impossible. So basically you have Flash way out ahead, then Stork and Jaedong trailing in his wake together.
Now let's get to the games. In the OSL Stork played Kwanro and Flash. Jaedong played Movie and go.go. I don't know about you, but I would much rather have Jaedong's opponents than Stork's opponents! So basically, Stork's OSL group was harder. Jaedong destroyed Movie and go.go like he should, so really he shouldn't be penalized for having the weaker group, but Stork does get bonus points for defeating Flash in an impressive game (despite all the imba in his favour).
So let's take a look at their respective Ro8 opponents. Jaedong's opponent has a career record of 99-43 in TvZ (70% including unofficial games). Stork's opponent has a career record of 30-14 in ZvP (68% including unofficial games). While Stork's opponent is newer than Flash, and doesn't boast the same reputation as him, Shine is actually a beast in ZvP. To say that they were equally hard would be a bit of a lie, but Shine really does deserve credit for his ZvP.
Jaedong lost 0-2 in poor games. Stork lost 1-2 in mostly close games. So who wins the Ro8 battle? Difficult to tell, but personally I lean slightly towards Stork since Jaedong did look so helpless against Flash.
Jaedong is being spoonfed victims in the MSL. That's thanks to the retarded KeSPA seeding format - and so Jaedong gets to look forward to two easy round of firefist and Stats. Other players got legitimately difficult opponents (like Flash) but Jaedong gets to cruise through. I don't value Jaedong's MSL run much for that reason. He's been spoonfed scrubs - just like in proleague. Stork dispatches of scrubs as well, or at least he did in December.
Turning to Proleague, Jaedong probably has an edge over Stork. Stork losing to Effort is comparable to Jaedong losing to Sea. Stork trounced Bisu/Best while Jaedong got Roro/Hogil in their mirrors. Jaedong semi-cheesed Movie and dispatched tester without too much problem so his ZvP is still very much intact (not that we were ever questioning it). Stork didn't run into any Terrans. With all that set, I would say that they are about even. But then Stork lost to hero earlier in the month. That game is an anomaly as far as I am concerned, but with the separation between these two so fine it does give Jaedong a very small edge in PL.
To try and force some separation between the two I concerned their November records. Both were impresssive. Jaedong had some key losses to crap zergs, while Stork has a really terrible end of november despite a solid showing earlier in the month. There isn't anything useful to be gained by looking 2 months into the past really.
As I already outlined, the deciding factor was weighing up between Stork's PvZ and Jaedong's ZvT. Looking at all the games over the month, my confidence in Jaedong's vT has been shaken while my confidence in Stork's vZ is only scarred. This does largely come from comparing Shine-Stork/Effort-Stork against Flash-Jaedong/Sea-Jaedong. People will disagree with this, and that's not surprising given the rampant Jaedong fanbase, or minute separation between these two in december.
This logic makes sense, but we have different interpretations of the OSL games. Except for the game stork won, he looked utterly silly against Shine. The 0-2 loss is much more credit to Flash for playing strategically than a "minus" to jaedong. His reaction to a strategy he had never seen before in the second game was probably better than anything anyone would have done in such a situation. You can't even compare those games.
How did stork look silly in game 1 or 3 v shine? Game 1 was a really close game, much closer than flash v jaedong's game 1. And game 3 shine did a cheesy move by mining out the backdoor mineral and stork scouted that using star sense, but it put him behind because he had to pull like 8 probes. Then he had to do a coin toss, whether to try and block a hydra break of mutalisk. Stork chose to defend against hydra, and as a result lost to mutalisk v shine. You can't really blame stork. Zergs just can be like that. It was protoss that looked silly v zerg not stork looking silly v shine. Jaedong did poorly game 1 and did poorly game 2 in response to the cheese too.
On January 04 2010 02:32 HuntingX wrote: It seems like random picks of whoever he likes at the time, without any regard to records. Stork, out of both leagues, at #2? #8, maybe. If you go by proleague records, you have Shine at #4, and Bisu out completely (when Bisu 2-0ed the poor guy in a single proleague match). Some players (KAL) deserve WAAAAAAY higher placement. #10, really? He hit a new ELO peak. Have you WATCHED his games? I really doubt it.
Why does stork deserve #8? I think you are the one who is randomly picking whoever you like at the moment. Stork played the closest series in the ro8 and killed everyone in the proleague, except for the first and last pl game of this month. Most people here are complaining why jaedong is below stork, which basically means they think stork should be around #3 not #8.
Bisu has been playing terribly, his games are sloppy, and bisu did not 2-0 shine or anybody in December.
Review the second match in Jaedong's series against Flash, can you tell me that Jaedong reacted as good as he could have? (clue: you can't).
Ok, please explain how he could have reacted better. As a ZvT player I want to know this. I'm sorry but the only possible way he could have "reacted better" is by heavily outmicroing Flash but that is not JD reacting better but Flash reacting worse. From the moment JD sent his overlord across the map and 12 hatched it was pretty much game over.
And then you forgive Stork's loss to Shine because it was "semi-cheese" when it was something that's easily stoppable. Compare that to Flash's build which, whether you call it cheese or not, is essentially a hard counter to 12 hatch and there's nothing really the Zerg can do.
Instead of making sunkens, use the 10 drones to delay flash, get the lings, then make the sunken and pull some drones off because 4 rines, 4 scv can't beat drones and lings. Jaedong probably would of lost 2~4 drones at most.
On January 04 2010 05:13 MuffinDude wrote: How did stork look silly in game 1 or 3 v shine? Game 1 was a really close game, much closer than flash v jaedong's game 1. And game 3 shine did a cheesy move by mining out the backdoor mineral and stork scouted that using star sense, but it put him behind because he had to pull like 8 probes. Then he had to do a coin toss, whether to try and block a hydra break of mutalisk. Stork chose to defend against hydra, and as a result lost to mutalisk v shine. You can't really blame stork. Zergs just can be like that. It was protoss that looked silly v zerg not stork looking silly v shine. Jaedong did poorly game 1 and did poorly game 2 in response to the cheese too.
Hahahaha Again please tell me how Jaedong could have reacted better. I will tell you right now how Stork could have reacted better to the "cheesy move" (which isn't even close to cheese) - counted Shine's drones like any decent Protoss does and realized he was missing one, then either stopping the drone or placing a cannon to stop a runby.
On January 03 2010 22:49 Plexa wrote: Okay, let's do Jaedong vs Stork. Hopefully we can all agree that if Stork isn't #2 then Jaedong is, and Stork is #3. I would like to emphasize the quality that distinguished the top three from everyone else - and that was consistency across the board in December. All three were destroying Proleague and whatever leagues they were in (up until Ro8 anyway).
The task this month was to determine which played stronger in December - Stork or Jaedong. Personally, I beleive that both are playing very very well at the moment and separating them is almost impossible. So basically you have Flash way out ahead, then Stork and Jaedong trailing in his wake together.
Now let's get to the games. In the OSL Stork played Kwanro and Flash. Jaedong played Movie and go.go. I don't know about you, but I would much rather have Jaedong's opponents than Stork's opponents! So basically, Stork's OSL group was harder. Jaedong destroyed Movie and go.go like he should, so really he shouldn't be penalized for having the weaker group, but Stork does get bonus points for defeating Flash in an impressive game (despite all the imba in his favour).
So let's take a look at their respective Ro8 opponents. Jaedong's opponent has a career record of 99-43 in TvZ (70% including unofficial games). Stork's opponent has a career record of 30-14 in ZvP (68% including unofficial games). While Stork's opponent is newer than Flash, and doesn't boast the same reputation as him, Shine is actually a beast in ZvP. To say that they were equally hard would be a bit of a lie, but Shine really does deserve credit for his ZvP.
Jaedong lost 0-2 in poor games. Stork lost 1-2 in mostly close games. So who wins the Ro8 battle? Difficult to tell, but personally I lean slightly towards Stork since Jaedong did look so helpless against Flash.
Jaedong is being spoonfed victims in the MSL. That's thanks to the retarded KeSPA seeding format - and so Jaedong gets to look forward to two easy round of firefist and Stats. Other players got legitimately difficult opponents (like Flash) but Jaedong gets to cruise through. I don't value Jaedong's MSL run much for that reason. He's been spoonfed scrubs - just like in proleague. Stork dispatches of scrubs as well, or at least he did in December.
Turning to Proleague, Jaedong probably has an edge over Stork. Stork losing to Effort is comparable to Jaedong losing to Sea. Stork trounced Bisu/Best while Jaedong got Roro/Hogil in their mirrors. Jaedong semi-cheesed Movie and dispatched tester without too much problem so his ZvP is still very much intact (not that we were ever questioning it). Stork didn't run into any Terrans. With all that set, I would say that they are about even. But then Stork lost to hero earlier in the month. That game is an anomaly as far as I am concerned, but with the separation between these two so fine it does give Jaedong a very small edge in PL.
To try and force some separation between the two I concerned their November records. Both were impresssive. Jaedong had some key losses to crap zergs, while Stork has a really terrible end of november despite a solid showing earlier in the month. There isn't anything useful to be gained by looking 2 months into the past really.
As I already outlined, the deciding factor was weighing up between Stork's PvZ and Jaedong's ZvT. Looking at all the games over the month, my confidence in Jaedong's vT has been shaken while my confidence in Stork's vZ is only scarred. This does largely come from comparing Shine-Stork/Effort-Stork against Flash-Jaedong/Sea-Jaedong. People will disagree with this, and that's not surprising given the rampant Jaedong fanbase, or minute separation between these two in december.
This logic makes sense, but we have different interpretations of the OSL games. Except for the game stork won, he looked utterly silly against Shine. The 0-2 loss is much more credit to Flash for playing strategically than a "minus" to jaedong. His reaction to a strategy he had never seen before in the second game was probably better than anything anyone would have done in such a situation. You can't even compare those games.
How did stork look silly in game 1 or 3 v shine? Game 1 was a really close game, much closer than flash v jaedong's game 1. And game 3 shine did a cheesy move by mining out the backdoor mineral and stork scouted that using star sense, but it put him behind because he had to pull like 8 probes. Then he had to do a coin toss, whether to try and block a hydra break of mutalisk. Stork chose to defend against hydra, and as a result lost to mutalisk v shine. You can't really blame stork. Zergs just can be like that. It was protoss that looked silly v zerg not stork looking silly v shine. Jaedong did poorly game 1 and did poorly game 2 in response to the cheese too.
On January 04 2010 02:32 HuntingX wrote: It seems like random picks of whoever he likes at the time, without any regard to records. Stork, out of both leagues, at #2? #8, maybe. If you go by proleague records, you have Shine at #4, and Bisu out completely (when Bisu 2-0ed the poor guy in a single proleague match). Some players (KAL) deserve WAAAAAAY higher placement. #10, really? He hit a new ELO peak. Have you WATCHED his games? I really doubt it.
Why does stork deserve #8? I think you are the one who is randomly picking whoever you like at the moment. Stork played the closest series in the ro8 and killed everyone in the proleague, except for the first and last pl game of this month. Most people here are complaining why jaedong is below stork, which basically means they think stork should be around #3 not #8.
Bisu has been playing terribly, his games are sloppy, and bisu did not 2-0 shine or anybody in December.
Christ, its not like Shine invented the Wheel when he mined out that backdoor. If Stork had Star Sense, he would have counted the drones notice 1 was missing and could easily conclude he was mining out, and if he still wasnt sure he could have scouted there BEFORE he placed his cannons so they did not cover the ramp. There was NOTHING cheesy about what Shine did that game, everything was perfectly normal and Stork reacted poorly to it. Then he proceeds to lose his first corsair to scourge so he can`t defend vs Mutas, and its not like Stork flipped a coin where to put up cannons he only had 3 at his natural. The only difference from a normal game from Shines side was that he took his second gas before his 5th hatchery to grind out some extra gas for those mutas, beside that everything he did was absolutely standard and it was Storks LACK of "Star Sense" that caused him the problems from those lings, and his lack of paying attention that cost him the first sair which led to him not being able to defend his main. (Yeah he could have lost it anyway, but he would have had 2 sairs and 1 cannon vs not so many mutas)
And one thing for Plexa that I forgot to mention in the other post is how his arguments about Shine really lost all value when he started using unofficial stats to try to manipulate Shine into looking better than he is. Flash winrate didnt even go up by 1%, while Shines went up like 12. Its like someone arguing who is the best player at the B level of iccup, and one of them bring up his wicked good winrate he had at C-. It holds no relevance to the question at hand.
Edit: To make it clear I am not denying that unofficial games can`t be used to prove a point, as you can beat top players who are trying their hardest in Offliners. However in Shines case his strongest wins in offliners are either Tester, Jaehoon, Luciefer or Horrang2 depending on who you think are the least bad at PvZ.
Oh, he edited the post while I was typing. Well, JD had to use 100 minerals to rebuild the ovy. If he pulled all of his drones that early I'm not sure he would have had enough minerals to make 8 lings and he definitely wouldn't have enough to build a sunk too. Plus 3 marines + 4 scv's would rape almost all of the drones, unless Flash made a major micro mistake.
By the way Plexa, I do recall you saying that if Jaedong played against Flash in a long term game, he would get raped like in the first game. So the fact that Flash tried that 7 rax means it would be more effective than a long term game (he's playing to win, remember?), meaning that there's even less Jaedong could've done. So I don't see how he could've reacted better by your logic.
Plexa, your analysis of Stork vs. Jaedong is biased.
Why don't you look at official records? Flash is 81-35 (70%) against zerg and Shine is 12-10 (55%) against protoss. Unofficial record includes more games against worse opponents. Obviously Flash is way more proven than Shine. You can't pick which stats to use to bolster your argument. Now, Shine's ZvP may be very good, but it is no where near comparable to Flash's TvZ. In fact, Shine probably doesn't have the best ZvP right now (Jaedong does), while Flash has perhaps the best TvZ of all time. Also, the first set of Stork vs. Shine was absolutely abysmal. Stork could have easily saved his expansions but didn't. Jaedong was embarrassed too, but by a superior opponent.
The bottom line is, Jaedong is still alive in the MSL, while Stork is out of both leagues. According to you, "Sea is only able to demonstrate his good condition in the Proleague and that's keeping him low in the rankings." Thus, by the same argument, Stork should not be ranked that high. His MSL losses to Movie and Canata were bad. Why is his PvP better than Jaedong's ZvZ if his PvP cost him to drop out of a league? You also say that his PvT is as good as Jaedong's ZvP, which may be true, except he only played 1 PvT this month and his PvT also helped him drop out of a league. Meanwhile, Jaedong's ZvP and ZvZ have let him cruise through the MSL.
And although Shine may be better than Jaedong's MSL opponents, which is debatable, since you said that Movie has really good unconventional PvZ, Stork still lost to him. If Stork really has better PvZ than Jaedong's ZvT, then he needs to prove it by beating an opponent he is favored over.
I have several things to disagree but overall i am pleased by Plexa's writiing. Its so relaxing, not like FS or JWD (sorry folks).
1- Calm shoulb be at 5 instead of Movie because you cant use the argument of how zergs fight with Flash only on JD case, you should make for all. Also, Movie PvT is shaking. 2- Sea should be out of PR and replaced with Violet. Violet beat alot better players than Sea and even won ace.
i agree with the top3, but calm and effort are ranked too low while sea is ranked too high. and zero... well, zero is a tough one to rate this month. he had sick opponents and a sick workload. on the other hand, he simply lost too much of his games, despite so many of them being against s-class players. he just didnt cut it. id place him below calm for sure.
On January 03 2010 07:48 n.DieJokes wrote: especially since before that game Storks PvT wasn't anything special
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The point where someone stops listening to you.
edit: Jaedong was absolutely embarassed by Flash, guys. The disappointment of the series is why I think he got put at #3, frankly comparing their records I would say him and Stork are pretty tied at the moment.
And quite simply Stork impresses me so much more <3
I really like your PR-style, Plexa. I love the extended write-ups, but most of all the fact that you don't seem to give a damn about what everyone else thinks, which is awesome.
It's interesting that you put Jaedong below Stork. I love watching Stork play. While his micro is not as perfect as Bisu's, he has absolutely ridiculous decision-making in his two flag matchups. He's possibly the most consistent player in the modern era even if you include his brief OSL-cursed and WoW-ridden string of losses, and he holds his own in PvZ against the best, even if it's not always pretty.
On the other hand, I don't really like JD's play. I find his wins almost boring, and while he's a micro-machine capable of absolutely perfect play I don't see the same sparks of strategic brilliance that I do from the other top players that makes Starcraft entertaining for me to watch. Plus, his fans can be almost as insufferable as Bisu's.
Having said all that, Jaedong is without a doubt the second strongest player in the world at the moment. You can't use Flash as a bar at all for measuring ZvT: Honestly, the biggest deciding factor determining if he straight-up rolls you is if he got turrets up in time. All three big-name Zerg series's had at least one game where Flash just absolutely demolished his opponent and it didn't look like his opponent could do anything, whether their play was poor or brilliant (game 4 vs. Calm for poor, game 3 vs. Zero for brilliant. Also, I think you're underestimating how much of Calm's 'poor' muta micro throughout the series was caused by Flash's marine micro, but that's neither here nor there.)
Put Zero or Calm or Effort or even a team of all three against Flash before that game had started on HBR and have them play it out, with one and only one direction: To 12-hatch and scout normally with the first overlord. They would all have gotten creamed just as hard. If Flash had dreamed up any equally ridiculous cheese against any other zerg, it would have been just as much of a domination as it was against Jaedong. On the other hand, Hyun looked like a ZvT genius because Flash didn't put his turrets up in time against him. Simply put, Flash is so much better than other players that trying to measure them against him is like trying to measure which ant has the best chance of beating my boot. And while Jaedong lost to Flash, the undisputed strongest player on earth at the moment, Stork lost to Shine.
Shine does not have the best ZvP in the game. Shine does not have the second best ZvP in the game. Shine might not even have the third best ZvP in the game. He's very good, yes, but he's not Flash, and losing to him is not anywhere near equivalent of losing to to the Ultimate Weapon.
Stork beat Flash when basically everything went right for him. The build-orders, the map, the three clutch dragoons - absolutely everything, and still he won by the slightest of margins. Sure, all of those are because Stork is really really goddamn smart, but give those same advantages to Flash against Stork, and we'd see a repeat of Flash against Jaedong.
Jaedong has posted better results than Stork with more consistency in the month of December. All of his losses - Flash, Flash, Sea - don't count as a mark against him. The first two were almost inevitable, the third a clever strategy that doesn't give us any idea of Jaedong's play. Stork's losses have been far more ugly, with losses to Effort, Shine, Shine, and Hero. You don't count ZvZ wins for much, and I understand that sentiment completely (ZvZ blooooows) but when someone goes 6-0 in that matchup, 5-0 in ZvP, and then only loses to Flash and Sea in ZvT, it should count for something.
I completely agree that Jaedong's losses have all made him look helpless, but beyond game 1 versus Flash there wasn't a thing he could have done beyond pick different build orders. Meanwhile, all of Stork's losses were fully on him. Pound for pound, Jaedong has been playing better Starcraft than Stork, and not just in results.
Simply put, Flash is so much better than other zergs that trying to measure them against him is like trying to measure which ant has the best chance of beating my boot.
epic quote, although flash is no zerg player
but i agree, plexa didnt rate storks losses against shine high enough against stork. even on a very imba map, how can a player be considered the 2nd best in the world if he cant overcome a muta only monoculture build?
Instead of making sunkens, use the 10 drones to delay flash, get the lings, then make the sunken and pull some drones off because 4 rines, 4 scv can't beat drones and lings. Jaedong probably would of lost 2~4 drones at most
3 marins + 4scvs will surely kill more than 2-4 drones if you drag them long enough to prevent a bunker going up. Unless flash fucked up it was a straight build order win. 7rax 4scv +OLkill vs 12hatch no scout.
On January 03 2010 07:48 n.DieJokes wrote: especially since before that game Storks PvT wasn't anything special
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The point where someone stops listening to you.
edit: Jaedong was absolutely embarassed by Flash, guys. The disappointment of the series is why I think he got put at #3, frankly comparing their records I would say him and Stork are pretty tied at the moment.
And quite simply Stork impresses me so much more <3
Going back to the November, which is what you do when someone doesn't play many games in his mu (see plexa's justifications) and you want to give them the benefit of the doubt, his PvT was lackluster. Obviously we're not talking about about his entire career or whatever you take to mean "before that"; a fact which you then tried to hide by editing my post down to a single statement removing it from any shred of context; kudos retard.
Also, while I'm at; get off you pedestal no one respects it. "Guys, Jaedong got embarrassed" because you're the final authority on the subject and we were all being ridiculous before you opened our eyes with magical truth. If you want to argue over who had more embarrassing loses, look no farther that Stork vs Shine where he loses gets dominated by a cheesy rookie.
On January 03 2010 07:48 n.DieJokes wrote: Stork played one PvT this month, 1! Sure it was against FlaSh and sure it was a good game but its a ridiculous leap of faith to say his PvT is better than JD ZvP; especially since before that game Storks PvT wasn't anything special and this month JD was 5-0, all of which were one sided affairs. Storks PvP was pretty good this month but two of his games were against herb and han who both suck and gosi who is untested but very well might just suck; JD was also undefeated in his much more volatile mirror with the same numer of games and against a higher average opponent skill (Hogil and Roro are both good and Firefist best mu is ZvZ; before his games against JD he was 60% plus). Theres just no logical argument for Storks mirror being better than Jd's. And last but not least they're weaker mu, Stork went 4-4, JD 3-3; Stork lost against some very aggressive play and beat some very good players, JD raped a few very good players, lost one straight up game to the best player on earth with the strong mu of anyone in the scene (TvZ); lost a game to very cunning cheese and had a little slip up against sea. If anything I'd say in this respect they had an even month. In summary, JD ZvP is undeniably stronger than Storks PvT, his mirror is at the very least as good but probably better and they're statistically weakest mu's about even (even though I personally think JD ZvT has always been better that Storks PvZ and he didn't really have a chance to show it this month). Beyond that, JD is still in a league, that should be the final nail in any argument that Stork should be higher than JD.
Come on, jaedong beat roro, hogil, firefist x2. They all can be considered as mediocre~decent zergs who is just playing slightly better or (worse in hogil's case) at the current moment. Stork has beaten best and bisu, who although slumping, still have sick pvp. Stork's mirror match up is looking better than jaedong's.
Stork's pvz is also much more impressive than jaedong's zvt. Stork beat shine, zero x2, and kwanro, all decent~awesome zergs. Jaedong beat ruby, go.go, and canata. Theres no way that ruby, go.go, canata can compete with shine, zero x2, and kwanro. Stork's losses were also shine x2, by.hero, effort. Shine is displaying some of the best pvz right now and effort and by.hero are all good pvzer. Jaedong's loss similarly matches stork with flash x2 and sea. They way that they lost were pretty similar too.
Sure stork played one pvt, but it was v flash and he won pretty convincingly. He had control for pretty much the whole game except the time when flash was doing his little push. Beating flash convincingly is much more impressive than bunch of little wins in your best match up. Sure movie is good pvz, but he is not up at the level where he can perform consistently yet.
Being in a starleague also means nothing since stork and jaedong were knocked out of osl at the same time and stork was knocked of msl a while back. Stork is playing much better than he did during his msl games.
Stork is 10-4 last month while jaedong is 13-3. Both player's loss came from their worst matchup, but Stork's record is much more impressive since 8/14 games were on his worst match up, while jaedong's were only 6/16.
While close, stork edges jaedong out on this one.
After more thought on their mirrors this month I'm going to say its inconclusive since neither lost. Stork beat some big names and some rabble; JD beat some very solid players but it true none of them had the same weight of Bisu and Best. I'd say historically JD's mirror is better but that neither here nor there.
I can agree with what you wrote in the second paragraph; here's what I don't agree with. One game is meaningless, it's always been meaningless. Hyun beat FlaSh one game but is his ZvT S-class? G-d no. Going into that game Stork was coming off two disheartening losses and though that game vs. FlaSh alleviates that worry; I can't say Storks PvT is end all be all of that mu the way JD is at ZvP.
And ofc being in a sl matters; if JD wins the MSL is that just meaningless because Stork already dropped out and didn't have the chance? Jaedong is 13-3, two of his losses are to the best player on earth and everything else has been domination. Stork is better than Shine and By.HerO without a doubt and he should have beaten them the same way JD beat Movie. I agree it's close but JD is the stronger player
On January 04 2010 05:36 QuakerOats wrote: Oh, he edited the post while I was typing. Well, JD had to use 100 minerals to rebuild the ovy. If he pulled all of his drones that early I'm not sure he would have had enough minerals to make 8 lings and he definitely wouldn't have enough to build a sunk too. Plus 3 marines + 4 scv's would rape almost all of the drones, unless Flash made a major micro mistake.
Dude, jaedong made 2 creep colonies, if he pulled drones early, I'm pretty sure he could of made 1 sunken after delaying flash for a bit.
Instead of making sunkens, use the 10 drones to delay flash, get the lings, then make the sunken and pull some drones off because 4 rines, 4 scv can't beat drones and lings. Jaedong probably would of lost 2~4 drones at most
First off, he lost his overlord so he can't use a mineralline to micro his drones. Second, 3 marins + 4scvs will surely kill more than 2-4 drones if you drag them long enough to prevent a bunker going up. Unless flash fucked up it was a straight build order win. 7rax 4scv +OLkill vs 12hatch no scout.
Dude rewatch the game, you'll see that jaedong's lings came about 4~5 seconds after his drones and flash's little army engaged. Jaedong shouldn't of just relyed on the sunkens and just use drone ling to delay him and morph sunken then.
On January 03 2010 18:21 Djabanete wrote: Excellent individual league performance (OSL semis); very good record in proleague (6-2); strength in all matchups (top-notch ZvP and ZvZ, and the best ZvFlash yet); recent championship win (in case you're not sure whether to grant the benefit of the doubt).
Add all that up and you get Calm. 9th place? What the fuck?
I think your definition of Top-Notch needs some extreme help.
Everyone watched Flash vs Calm (of which only 2 games were a decent showing by calm) and thinks that's how he always plays.
Hint: He doesn't always play like that. In fact he plays like complete crap more often than not and scraps by wins where he should be in a dominating position. Calm's play is just wildly inconsistent and he simply doesn't win like he freaking should if you want to claim he has top-notch ZvP and implied ZvT.
ZvZ i'll give you...even though Calm's muta control is inconsistent at best.
Placing Stork before JD is completely wrong. As much as I like Stork, JD was just far better. Not even remotely close and everyone who agrees with you does it only to be on the safe side.
- Jaedong: JD was ranked 2 and won everything in Deceber except for the series against Flash and one game against Sea. He is also still in the MSL and on a good way to get to Semis. Losing a series against Flash in TvZ is no shame because Flash has a strategy that combined with his incredible Micro is not countered so far by ANY Zerg in the world.
- Stork: Comes from rank 5 and is out of both Star League in end of novemver / dezember. You praise his PvZ as a reason why he is placed so high when in reality he is 4-5 (!!!) in his last 9 games against Zerg, counting from 11-30 on. Furthermore his losses against Effort and Shine were much worse than JDs losses vs. Flash.
I don't know if you really think that Stork was better than JD I can't help you and you should never do PR again. If you did it to provoke comments, well it worked for me, but you damage the reputation of the Power Rank. So whatever it is, it is just bs.
Also rating Calm so low is horrendous. I don't know why many people don't like him but that should not have an impact on his rank. I don't think many would have complained if you put Calm on 4 or 5. Not including the ridiculousness that is "Flash vs. Zerg" the reigning MSL champion is 10-2 in Dezember and you rank him down by 2? And below Kwanro? What a joke. If you watch G4 of Flash vs. Calm you can see Flash fistpump after winning G4. And that was a great sign of respect, neither JD nor anyone else managed to get a fistpump out of him, and he did it because he knew that he has to play his very best to beat calm.
On January 04 2010 05:36 QuakerOats wrote: Oh, he edited the post while I was typing. Well, JD had to use 100 minerals to rebuild the ovy. If he pulled all of his drones that early I'm not sure he would have had enough minerals to make 8 lings and he definitely wouldn't have enough to build a sunk too. Plus 3 marines + 4 scv's would rape almost all of the drones, unless Flash made a major micro mistake.
Dude, jaedong made 2 creep colonies, if he pulled drones early, I'm pretty sure he could of made 1 sunken after delaying flash for a bit.
Instead of making sunkens, use the 10 drones to delay flash, get the lings, then make the sunken and pull some drones off because 4 rines, 4 scv can't beat drones and lings. Jaedong probably would of lost 2~4 drones at most
First off, he lost his overlord so he can't use a mineralline to micro his drones. Second, 3 marins + 4scvs will surely kill more than 2-4 drones if you drag them long enough to prevent a bunker going up. Unless flash fucked up it was a straight build order win. 7rax 4scv +OLkill vs 12hatch no scout.
Dude rewatch the game, you'll see that jaedong's lings came about 4~5 seconds after his drones and flash's little army engaged. Jaedong shouldn't of just relyed on the sunkens and just use drone ling to delay him and morph sunken then.
List of people that agree with Stork > Jaedong (agree, not just accept) You Plexa The other list including people who are bigger fans of Stork than Jaedong. Of course, it's entirely possible only you two actually watched the games instead of relying on results and Stork fans and most others didn't.
Also, while I'm at; get off you pedestal no one respects it. "Guys, Jaedong got embarrassed" because you're the final authority on the subject and we were all being ridiculous before you opened our eyes with magical truth. If you want to argue over who had more embarrassing loses, look no farther that Stork vs Shine where he loses gets dominated by a cheesy rookie.
Oh wow where did that come from? XD
*mimes getting off a pedestal*
Go and watch the games again if you think there was any sort of "domination" going on in Stork vs Shine. Both players played well in all 3 games IMO, and they were all hard-fought. (Criticising Stork for losing to a "cheesy rookie" when Jaedong was cheesed out by Flash is kind of weird too, fyi). There was nothing embarassing about that series.
I just re-watched Jaedong vs Flash game 1, and frankly this time the loss seemed more a product of Flash's brilliance than any major fail on Jaedong's part. So, perhaps embarrassed was too strong a word here too. It's hard to contend that Calm or Zero put up more of a fight in their series, though.
Nitpick: In Flash's entry, you say he is "probably going to break the streak record for any matchup very soon," whereas he already has. It goes him with 21 TvTs, Oov with 18 TvZs, and I think Best? With 15 PvPs.
If you watch G4 of Flash vs. Calm you can see Flash fistpump after winning G4. And that was a great sign of respect, neither JD nor anyone else managed to get a fistpump out of him, and he did it because he knew that he has to play his very best to beat calm.
Respect?
Maybe he fistpumped because you know he reached the finals of a starleague for the first time in a long time...something that is much overdue. I've seen Flash play more flawless TvZ than he did vs Calm, you're reading far too much into a simple fistpump
On January 04 2010 09:39 MuffinDude wrote: Dude rewatch the game, you'll see that jaedong's lings came about 4~5 seconds after his drones and flash's little army engaged. Jaedong shouldn't of just relyed on the sunkens and just use drone ling to delay him and morph sunken then.
I don't just watch the game. I play the game everyday. I look up to flash and try to interprate his strategies into my play. I studdy all his VODs until i know his exact build. I use his strategies on iccup everyday and also so happen to have used this 7 rax more than 50 games. Most of you guys didn't even notice it was a 7rax until days after the actual match.
I know the scenario that will occur when you get into that situation. You will have 20 seconds to get that bunker up, not 5 seconds. And zerg will lose alot more than 4 drones if he wants to fight marines for 20 seconds. What I'm trying to say here is that if flash didn't win that, he fucked up. It was not jaedongs job to to something spectacular. I agree that he could have dealt with it better, but he couldn't have won. Not vs flash.
What he could have done, is to target the scvs with lings and drones and let the sunkens finnish the bunker. However he would be so far behind that he couldn't have won vs flash. Thats the only move that could have saved him for a longer game, he didn't do it. Jaedongs strengths have never been to adapt to new builds. He shouldn't now suddenly be punnished for it.
If you watch G4 of Flash vs. Calm you can see Flash fistpump after winning G4. And that was a great sign of respect, neither JD nor anyone else managed to get a fistpump out of him, and he did it because he knew that he has to play his very best to beat calm.
Respect?
Maybe he fistpumped because you know he reached the finals of a starleague for the first time in a long time...something that is much overdue. I've seen Flash play more flawless TvZ than he did vs Calm, you're reading far too much into a simple fistpump
I think it was more because it was a really taxing series.
Think about his game vs FBH, he was jumping around like crazy -- because of how tense it was -- after he won. I don't think respect factored into more more than an expression of relief.
Not that he doesn't respect these players, but that's not the immediate thing on his mind after winning a series of rough games.
Still puting Kwanro , Sea and Zero.... you could argue about zero although Zero failed every league at the same time and he played bad against Movie and Stork for that matter above Calm is not reasonable . Calm made it from the OSL group of death , but i forgat that you think ZvZ is nothing , and please don't hold Calm's 2 hat mutas against Pure as something Calm did as a desperation . Pure isn't a good player at least not in PvZ he fluked 1 win against Zero and beat Yarnc in a tie breaker to whom he lost in the group also . Calm would have beaten him with whatever build he prepared , but after the frist game with such a bad defence against Calm's 3 hatch muta timing of 2 hatch i don't blame him for trying 2 hat mutas in the second game . Sea hasn't done anything note worthy to put him above Calm he had 1 easy win against Jaedong and that's basicly it . And puting Kwanro above Calm is just fanboism Kwanro is bader then Calm in all MU not to mention that he got destroyed by him in the finals ....
And Plexa judging Calm , Zero , Jaedong and even Effort's ZvT based on playing Flash is just stupid because they will all probably demolish any other terran in a series . There diffrence in skill's can't be compared based on how well they did against Flash .
I really disagree with you putting Stork above Jaedong and I'm a huge Stork fanboy. The fact is at the end of the day Jaedong is in the MSL and Stork has nothing. I can understand the argument that you have to look at the play and not just results, but I feel that ranking the best protoss over the best zerg because you think his pvz was better than Jaedong's zvt is a really shaky arguement. (Then again, this is all completely subjective with no scientific basis what-so-ever)
The universal yardstick rule with Flash doesn't come off to me as a convincing way of ranking zvt play considering they only played 2 games and one of them was a bunker rush. There's so much variance in programing right now that I really wish that Flash and Jaedong had played a best of 7 or something so that we could get a feel for who had better late game play. Sadly, the games ended too early.
All people that complain about Zero being too high, cause he has loss too this month and should be below calm.
This is a about who play better, and Zero have played very well al the month. He had a difficult calendar with many matches and top-opponents and when He loss, he played well. Calm or Kwanro were more mediocre overall.
70% winrate, 2400 ELO, two straight wins against dragons.
Flash has not lost a single game that mattered during the entire season; 2 losses in BoX's that he won anyway, 2 losses in PL where he went on to win the ace game himself and 1 loss in the OSL groupstage where he advanced anyway.
seriously, I don't care what people say, He's just reached bonjwastatus for me. + Show Spoiler +
Is this not enough people? I check through other bonjwas results and I dont find this kind of domination anywhere. Even in this time, when everyone is so good he's able to dominate harder than anyone has before. I just hope he goes on to win both SL's so we can end the discussion.
seriously, I don't care what people say, He's just reached bonjwastatus for me. + Show Spoiler +
Is this not enough people? I check through other bonjwas results and I dont find this kind of domination anywhere. Even in this time, when everyone is so good he's able to dominate harder than anyone has before. I just hope he goes on to win both SL's so we can end the discussion.
2400 ELO. 70% total win%. racestreaks everywhere.
I went ahead and expanded your list to include every game this season, behold:
I rather liked the PowerRank, its well explained and seems to fit. I completely agree with Bisu's placing aswell, sure he has pulled off some decent results, his games looked... kinda bad. Sloppy, not in control. There's a few games where the old Bisu came trough, but overall I didnt like his play at all. And I like Bisu a lot.
I'm not 100% sure on Movie's position, I really really love the guy and I'm looking to him as the new inventive protoss, but his play hasnt been all that solid yet, so the current ranking might be a bit high. Completely agree on Calm tho =)
If you watch G4 of Flash vs. Calm you can see Flash fistpump after winning G4. And that was a great sign of respect, neither JD nor anyone else managed to get a fistpump out of him, and he did it because he knew that he has to play his very best to beat calm.
Respect?
Maybe he fistpumped because you know he reached the finals of a starleague for the first time in a long time...something that is much overdue. I've seen Flash play more flawless TvZ than he did vs Calm, you're reading far too much into a simple fistpump
Flash just won the GOM like six months ago vs Iris...
I don't see how shine's 3rd game vs stork is a "mini cheese". Sacrificing 1 drone to mine out the back on a map like that is not unexpected and is pretty much standard play. sacrificing 1 drone is not equivalent to doing an all-in whatsoever.
On January 05 2010 04:33 Holgerius wrote: I don't get how Plexa can't see anything special in Violet's play. He's awesome.
Maybe because Violet keeps letting lings into his base? Any good zerg could have won the game after the probe massacre.
Well, everyone can make mistakes. How about Jaedong losing embarrassingly to a sunken break (which didn't really become a sunken break since JD didn't make any sunkens rofl)? Violet's comeback had just as much to do with him playing great as with Great fucking up. His harassment is awesome, watch his play against the (according to the PR) ''most deadly ZvP sniper in progaming''. He's putting up great results in PL, winning ace games and everything, and IMO he's showing a lot of flair when doing it. Sea as No7 and Violet not even a CBNC is just so wrong in my eyes.
On January 05 2010 04:33 Holgerius wrote: I don't get how Plexa can't see anything special in Violet's play. He's awesome.
Maybe because Violet keeps letting lings into his base? Any good zerg could have won the game after the probe massacre.
Well, everyone can make mistakes. How about Jaedong losing embarrassingly to a sunken break (which didn't really become a sunken break since JD didn't make any sunkens rofl)? Violet's comeback had just as much to do with him playing great as with Great fucking up. His harassment is awesome, watch his play against the (according to the PR) ''most deadly ZvP sniper in progaming''. He's putting up great results in PL, winning ace games and everything, and IMO he's showing a lot of flair when doing it. Sea as No7 and Violet not even a CBNC is just so wrong in my eyes.
I agree Sea as #7 and Violet in CBNC is wrong and can only be explained as Plexa being a MBC fan.
I will be looking forward to how hes going to fare in Winner's League.
Head to head 1-0 for Violet. The stats are very even.
Sea's basically playing one matchup in Proleague at the moment - mostly TvT with just a few non-mirror games thrown in on the side. He has 2 painful and glaring losses to weak Protosses last month (one vs GosI and one vs Violet) giving his TvP a 33% winrate this season. And he has only Proleague to practise for.
If you watch G4 of Flash vs. Calm you can see Flash fistpump after winning G4. And that was a great sign of respect, neither JD nor anyone else managed to get a fistpump out of him, and he did it because he knew that he has to play his very best to beat calm.
Respect?
Maybe he fistpumped because you know he reached the finals of a starleague for the first time in a long time...something that is much overdue. I've seen Flash play more flawless TvZ than he did vs Calm, you're reading far too much into a simple fistpump
Flash just won the GOM like six months ago vs Iris...
Yes, because the '#2' player getting trashed in 10 minutes against the #1 player, in his BEST MATCHUP, IN AN ACE MATCH, makes perfect sense. Riggggght. Flash didn't even Cheese Stork; he just straightup OWNED him.
Did you even WATCH the game? You're telling me Calm didn't play better than THAT? Seriously? Heck, BEST will play 10x better than that in his BO5 with Flash (and obviously, Best doesn't deserve a spot!). I can't cite Stork v Stats, because then people will say he didn't take Stats seriously (and he probably didn't).
In any event, Stork, out of both leagues, and not performing that well in Proleague. #2 PR? Over... Jaedong? Ignoring results to throw out biased rankings (Sea anywhere is a cosmic joke) makes the whole thing hilarious (and a laughingstock outside of this site).
On January 05 2010 13:14 HuntingX wrote: Yes, because the '#2' player getting trashed in 10 minutes against the #1 player, in his BEST MATCHUP, IN AN ACE MATCH, makes perfect sense. Riggggght. Flash didn't even Cheese Stork; he just straightup OWNED him.
Did you even WATCH the game? You're telling me Calm didn't play better than THAT? Seriously? Heck, BEST will play 10x better than that in his BO5 with Flash (and obviously, Best doesn't deserve a spot!). I can't cite Stork v Stats, because then people will say he didn't take Stats seriously (and he probably didn't).
In any event, Stork, out of both leagues, and not performing that well in Proleague. #2 PR? Over... Jaedong? Ignoring results to throw out biased rankings (Sea anywhere is a cosmic joke) makes the whole thing hilarious (and a laughingstock outside of this site).
Your an idiot. Stork is one of the two protosses that has recently taken games off of FlaSh, so what if he lost ONE game, you can't compare Calm, a Zerg player, practicing for a bo5 all fucking week, to Stork, a protoss, practicing for a PvP, and if it goes to ace, the possibility of a PvT.
Sea went 5-3 and Violet went 6-3 but Violet went 2-0 in ace matches.
I know its about results but I'm pretty sure Violet was playing better when he beat Sea head to head.
I also disagree with Jaedong being below Stork. As already mentioned Jaedong managed to still be in MSL where Stork choked away his chance vs Movie and Canata. Jaedong losing 0-2 to Flash wasn't as bad as Stork losing 1-2 to Shine. Flash is just on a whole different level right now. Jaedong's only other loss was to Sea this month. Stork may have had more outstanding wins this month but Jaedong was more consistent and dominant in my opinion.
One thing I did like about the rank was Zero's ranking though.
On January 05 2010 13:32 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Your an idiot. Stork is one of the two protosses that has recently taken games off of FlaSh, so what if he lost ONE game, you can't compare Calm, a Zerg player, practicing for a bo5 all fucking week, to Stork, a protoss, practicing for a PvP, and if it goes to ace, the possibility of a PvT.
Guess what. Flash has also prepared HIS TvZ all week before he faced Calm and was prepared for TvT and if goes to Ace the possibility of PvT so your point makes no sense.
And yes, the person you offended was right. Placing Stork over JD is false. If it is either by trying to provoke or by being biased or just by analyzing very bad doesn't matter.
Jaedong
- was better before Dezember
- had a better total record in Dezember
- in that better record the only losses were against PR #1 twice and PR #7 once, whereas Stork lost against #4 twice and twice against players who are not on PR
- is still in one Starleague instead of being thrown out of both like Stork
I know everyone likes Stork, but if you judge the two players from a neutral point of view, Jaedong was absolute superior.
On January 05 2010 13:14 HuntingX wrote: Yes, because the '#2' player getting trashed in 10 minutes against the #1 player, in his BEST MATCHUP, IN AN ACE MATCH, makes perfect sense. Riggggght. Flash didn't even Cheese Stork; he just straightup OWNED him.
Did you even WATCH the game? You're telling me Calm didn't play better than THAT? Seriously? Heck, BEST will play 10x better than that in his BO5 with Flash (and obviously, Best doesn't deserve a spot!). I can't cite Stork v Stats, because then people will say he didn't take Stats seriously (and he probably didn't).
First, Calm played pretty crappy in 2 of the 4 games of the series. Second, you are citing the Stork vs. Flash game as evidence that Stork didn't deserve his rank (presumably over Jaedong), when Jaedong got trashed just as convincingly by Flash in a more important game (and no, I'm not talking about the 7rax).
Third, Best just got stomped in his bo5 with Flash 10 days ago.
Finally, the real issue is that you are being rabid about one game. Yes, Stork lost to Flash in an embarrassing fashion. Flash has a way of doing that. Does that mean he doesn't deserve his rank? Of course not. If it happened repeatedly, that would be something else entirely.
You're right that best will play a better rest of the bo5 against Flash than this game. So would Stork, wouldn't you think? I think that Stork right now has a pretty good chance of taking Flash down in a bo5... and we sure know that Calm doesn't.
You're comparing TvZ vs TvP as if the two are comparable. They aren't. I'm just noting that Stork got humiliated (again) by Flash, and that he has highs, and lows. He's currently riding a low, out of BOTH leagues, so why the heck is he #2 ????? in PR? What has he DONE to deserve it?
EVERY DOMINANT TERRAN PLAYER has INCREDIBLE tvz. Every single one. T > Z > P > T, it's how SC is balanced, and even a baby knows it. So you'll never get to the top of terran, if you don't have flawness TvZ. But by extension, it's easier to win PvT than it is to win ZvT (and this is not a debateable point). So it's just HARDER for Z players to stand up to Flash (and this has been shown, repeatedly). Everyone knows that Flash's TvP is his 'weakest' matchup. Granted, it's not WEAK (duh!), but it's weaker than his endless wins in TvT, and his domination in TvZ.
So to get just TRASHED by Flash, trashed by shine (twice), and losing to Effort, I don't see how you can justify Stork's 'dominance' at #2. He's 6-4 in his last 10, vs Jaedong's 7-3, vs Violet's 7-3, etc.
You'll see a clear pattern that most of the 'good' players are roughly 7-3 or 8-2 like #10 on the PR, Kal. Frankly, there's a GOOD argument that RIGHT NOW Kal is playing better than Stork. There I said it.
Also, Sea #7 is a JOKE. I get that people like the kid. I like him too. Doesn't mean he comes anywhere CLOSE to the PR. Nothing in leagues, nothing in Proleague. Shine up there? As someone else mentioned, he ain't even the ace on his own TEAM.
On one hand, there's all these players that had a lucky run deep into the starleagues, that get high rank. On the other, there are these players with no starleague achievements, and mediocre proleague achievements, but are 'likeable.' What exactly is the PR trying to measure? How much bias we can squeeze into 10 spots? Terrible.
On January 03 2010 22:49 Plexa wrote: Turning to Proleague, Jaedong probably has an edge over Stork.
Not probably, Jaedong performed certainly better in Proleague. Good, we agree on that. So, do I get this right? JD is still in one more Starleague than Stork AND better in Proleague? While the only reason he is out of a Star League at all is because he was paired against the 2400 guy who just came up with a yet uncountered TvZ style and the second game with a brilliant cheese? What could Jaedong have done? He was better in Proleague than Stork and he was flawless in the MSL group. So, his opponents were not that impressive? What could he do about it? Nothing! (Ironically Stork on the other actually could have done something about it. Not 0-2ing in the MSL at the end of November and qualifying for the next round that is. But that was November, so it doesn't count).
The only thing Jaedong could have done better this month would have been to beat Flash in a TvZ, which seems impossible like beating Usain Bolt in a 200m race. On the other hand Stork could have beaten Shine in the OSL, which seems much more possible. (Or, again, qualify for the Dezember MSL rounds and show a good performance there, but again I give you that Stork's Novemver losses don't count for Dezember).
On January 03 2010 22:49 Plexa wrote: To try and force some separation between the two I concerned their November records. Both were impresssive. Jaedong had some key losses to crap zergs, while Stork has a really terrible end of november
So you concerned November records?
What really enrages me is this part: "JD had some key losses against crap Zergs" in November? What an incredible biased way to say things. How about saying it like THIS?
Jaedong had ONLY 2 losses in all games in the whole month of November in which he also won the world Cyber games title while Stork ended the month with 4 losses in a row.
So, I ask you, plexa, WHAT kind of November data gave Stork the edge? Losing 4x in a row right before the datat collection for PR Dezember began? Losing to JD in WCG finals? Losing twice as often as Jaedong in regular games in November?
November and Dezember combined Stork was overall 15-8 while Jaedong was 19-5. And that is NOT including the games for Jaedongs WCG title.
So, go ahead, tell me, what kind of November data did you use?
So to get just TRASHED by Flash, trashed by shine (twice), and losing to Effort, I don't see how you can justify Stork's 'dominance' at #2. He's 6-4 in his last 10, vs Jaedong's 7-3, vs Violet's 7-3, etc.
You'll see a clear pattern that most of the 'good' players are roughly 7-3 or 8-2 like #10 on the PR, Kal. Frankly, there's a GOOD argument that RIGHT NOW Kal is playing better than Stork. There I said it.
So Stork is not good because he's 6-4 in the last 10 rather than 7-3. Right, I think I've had enough.
Not one of the better power rankings. JD>Stork as for reasons already said but I guess #2 Stork is tolerable due to opinion but Sea still being on the list (maybe i can see a #10 but if you are even going to put Sea in, Violet should at least be CBNC because of their similar performances recently) and Calm being so low doesn't seem right, especially when ZerO is #6. The players are for the most part correct (except I wouldn't have Sea probably) but the order is not quite right in my opinion.
On January 05 2010 13:14 HuntingX wrote: Yes, because the '#2' player getting trashed in 10 minutes against the #1 player, in his BEST MATCHUP, IN AN ACE MATCH, makes perfect sense. Riggggght. Flash didn't even Cheese Stork; he just straightup OWNED him.
Did you even WATCH the game? You're telling me Calm didn't play better than THAT? Seriously? Heck, BEST will play 10x better than that in his BO5 with Flash (and obviously, Best doesn't deserve a spot!). I can't cite Stork v Stats, because then people will say he didn't take Stats seriously (and he probably didn't).
In any event, Stork, out of both leagues, and not performing that well in Proleague. #2 PR? Over... Jaedong? Ignoring results to throw out biased rankings (Sea anywhere is a cosmic joke) makes the whole thing hilarious (and a laughingstock outside of this site).
You know, citing games that happened AFTER the pr was written is unrelated and makes you look like a complete retard?
Like many others I disagree with this PR However, people should learn to calm the fuck down and discuss this in a mannered fashion instead of crying like little babies.
I just hope that Violet will be mentioned eventually, it was already a shame when he wasnt even in CBNC in november.
Still thx to Plexa for your efforts, you sure as hell gave people something to talk about, PRs everyone agrees with are not as exciting after all :p
On January 05 2010 17:49 7mk wrote: However, people should learn to calm the fuck down and discuss this in a mannered fashion instead of crying like little babies.
Calm down? That IS part of the problem. Hahahaha
"calm the fuck down and discuss this in a mannered fashion" ...like cursing in bold letters?
On January 05 2010 13:14 HuntingX wrote: Yes, because the '#2' player getting trashed in 10 minutes against the #1 player, in his BEST MATCHUP, IN AN ACE MATCH, makes perfect sense. Riggggght. Flash didn't even Cheese Stork; he just straightup OWNED him.
Did you even WATCH the game? You're telling me Calm didn't play better than THAT? Seriously? Heck, BEST will play 10x better than that in his BO5 with Flash (and obviously, Best doesn't deserve a spot!). I can't cite Stork v Stats, because then people will say he didn't take Stats seriously (and he probably didn't).
In any event, Stork, out of both leagues, and not performing that well in Proleague. #2 PR? Over... Jaedong? Ignoring results to throw out biased rankings (Sea anywhere is a cosmic joke) makes the whole thing hilarious (and a laughingstock outside of this site).
You know, citing games that happened AFTER the pr was written is unrelated and makes you look like a complete retard?
Not when most of the PR is based on "the way the games looked" rather than results. It's a bit like giving a player a free pass because you're convinced he's better than his results show, and you expect that to show over time. I'm not arguing this specifically in the case of Stork, but if you base an entire PR on impressions of strength rather than results, it should be expected that you'll be also judged by results that occur after the PR - especially if they don't confirm your rankings.
After all, strength is the ability to win games, and ranking a player that wins less both in the PR month *and* after that higher than one with better results - simply means that the ranking isn't very accurate.
Flash wins every starleague in 2010, exceeding 75% winrate in every matchup. Kespa decides to ban Flash from using Terran because the suspense of who will win is gone, but their clever plan is foiled when Flash continues to win every starleague playing as Protoss, completely reversing the Z>P trend with new builds and strategies. In his winner's interviews for his first Protoss dual OSL/MSL victories: "I should have switched to P years ago, who knew it was this easy?"
North Korea invades South Korea. South Korea wires the controls for all of its tanks and fighter jets to Flash's control. He uses them like siege tanks/wraiths and decimates North Korea (and laughs at them for wasting their eco on making nukes). Bored with the small-fry, he proceeds to somehow make China surrender as well.
Religious tensions in the Middle East disappear as feuding Muslims and Jews realize that their God can't possibly be real, because Flash is God, and they live happily ever after together in Jerusalem, which has now been renamed LeeYoungHoselum.
...
Either that or Flash crashes and loses 0-3 to Shine in OSL, 1-3 to BeSt in MSL, and then gets sent into a permanent slump when his TvT streak gets broken soon after by CuteAngel nuking him.
On January 03 2010 23:09 Plexa wrote: Let me quickly deal with some of the other major complaints.
Violet Violet's playing basically two matchups in proleauge at the moment - mostly vP with some vT thrown in on the side. Violet is playing well at the moment, but really he isn't exhibiting play worthy of top 10 or CBNC. Indeed, he has 2 painful and glaring losses to weak Protosses. With only proleague to practice for you really have to stand out if you want to be noticed for this ranking. Violet just isn't standing out at the moment, and that's why he's not on these lists.
I'm gonna level with you. You saying this and ranking Sea at #7 is one of the biggest about faces I've seen in the power rank. Violet was, at the time of the PR, performing better and playing just as well as Sea, even beating him when they met last. That you don't think Violet deserves even a bit of recognition in CBNC, whereas Sea deserves #7? Reaaaallly?
Sea only has to practice for PL, too, but I guess it's fine because he's on MBC?
1. I never said Calm deserved a higher spot. I agree Calm chokes/fails often, loses to bad players often, etc. I never said anything about your placement of Calm (although I have a personal bias that he might be higher, I have no evidence of that). The difference is that I won't rank Calm up above players that have *performed* at a higher level than him. The problem with using 'intuition' or 'appearance' here is that you're *then* responsible for accurately predicting FUTURE games, as you don't have a statistical crutch to stand on later.
2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with.
On January 05 2010 22:28 Hinanawi wrote:/.../ North Korea invades South Korea. South Korea wires the controls for all of its tanks and fighter jets to Flash's control. He uses them like siege tanks/wraiths and decimates North Korea (and laughs at them for wasting their eco on making nukes). Bored with the small-fry, he proceeds to somehow make China surrender as well. /.../
On January 05 2010 23:17 HuntingX wrote: 2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with.
The single biggest issue I have with the "jaedong is still in the MSL" argument is that he's being spoonfed scrubs thanks to the retarded MSL bracket generation system. Let me know when Jaedong faces a real opponent in the MSL kkk
But you can't possibly argue Stork's performance in the MSL is anything special! Losses to Canata and Movie are not indicative of great playing potential. I will concur that Jaedong is only playing absolute scrubs in MSL, but barring more information you can't say that he's playing worse.
I think it's important to give players who still have a shot at getting a title the 'benefit of the doubt' rather than the converse. Just like we judge basketball and football teams by their past performances, and just like we judge tennis players on a year-long cycle. Barring immediate evidence of catastrophic fail (like a terrible short term record or getting knocked out of both leagues -> bisu) we should not down-grade players. To Jaedong's credit, the only 'big games' he's lost were to Flash. To Stork's detriment, he's lost 'big games' to Movie and Canata! Not too impressive by comparison.
Until Stork proves that he can consistently 'hang' with the big boys late into Starleagues (and win them), he doesn't deserve a higher pole position. Similarly, until he shows off his chops in important Ace matches in Proleague, he cannot be the star ace that so many fans believe he is.
On January 03 2010 22:49 Plexa wrote: Turning to Proleague, Jaedong probably has an edge over Stork.
Not probably, Jaedong performed certainly better in Proleague. Good, we agree on that. So, do I get this right? JD is still in one more Starleague than Stork AND better in Proleague? While the only reason he is out of a Star League at all is because he was paired against the 2400 guy who just came up with a yet uncountered TvZ style and the second game with a brilliant cheese? What could Jaedong have done? He was better in Proleague than Stork and he was flawless in the MSL group. So, his opponents were not that impressive? What could he do about it? Nothing! (Ironically Stork on the other actually could have done something about it. Not 0-2ing in the MSL at the end of November and qualifying for the next round that is. But that was November, so it doesn't count).
The only thing Jaedong could have done better this month would have been to beat Flash in a TvZ, which seems impossible like beating Usain Bolt in a 200m race. On the other hand Stork could have beaten Shine in the OSL, which seems much more possible. (Or, again, qualify for the Dezember MSL rounds and show a good performance there, but again I give you that Stork's Novemver losses don't count for Dezember).
On January 03 2010 22:49 Plexa wrote: To try and force some separation between the two I concerned their November records. Both were impresssive. Jaedong had some key losses to crap zergs, while Stork has a really terrible end of november
So you concerned November records?
What really enrages me is this part: "JD had some key losses against crap Zergs" in November? What an incredible biased way to say things. How about saying it like THIS?
Jaedong had ONLY 2 losses in all games in the whole month of November in which he also won the world Cyber games title while Stork ended the month with 4 losses in a row.
So, I ask you, plexa, WHAT kind of November data gave Stork the edge? Losing 4x in a row right before the datat collection for PR Dezember began? Losing to JD in WCG finals? Losing twice as often as Jaedong in regular games in November?
November and Dezember combined Stork was overall 15-8 while Jaedong was 19-5. And that is NOT including the games for Jaedongs WCG title.
So, go ahead, tell me, what kind of November data did you use?
Probably the unofficial one he turns to when the real data can`t support his claims, I heard apparently JD lost more games in practice than Stork during November\December! LOL
On a serious note, your a great poster and a great guy Plexa, but you really fucked up hard on this PowerRank and its so glaringly apparent that your biased. You LOVE MBC check, You LOVE Kwanro check, you HATE Jaedong check. You then proceed to place Stork above JD and as Fenrax showed superbly in his post that was just wrong, no matter how you look at it. Also you claim non of his games are close except his losses, did his game3 vs SHine or the game vs Effort look very close to you? Then you put Sea at 7th despite him going only 5-3 the month and having no leagues to practice for. (Yeah 2 of his losses was vs good opponents, but the only good player he beat was JD the rest kinda sucks or at least are playing like trash lately, see Yarnc, Hero, FBH). Despite having players like Kal who went 10-3 for the month still in one league (note his PL performance was 5-3 the same as Sea, tho vs slightly weaker opponents, but he has yet dropped a game in MSL and had a bigger workload). Or Violet whos performed similar vs slightly worse opponents going 6-3 (but beating Sea himself)
Then you have someone like Calm going 6-2 in PL vs probably stronger opponents than Sea while maintaining 11-5 with his 3 remaining losses coming from Flash. Now you give a reason for it, which in my opinion is just a load of crap. His game vs Piano he did not pull way ahead (He got in a good spot, but in no way a gamedeciding advantage), he had ruined his eco to do 2hatch lurkers which killed some MnM (which T will spew out lots of new ones anyway) a bunker and a scan. Then he proceeds to transition into a normal game which includes hive (So in essence your punishing him for not going some kind of all in that would have ended the game pre hive). Then he manages to coordinate a strong attack on Ts natural and shut it down for the rest of the game while still defending back home and you call this poor play??? Yeah the Fantasy game he played kind a sloppy, but not nearly as bad as everyone seem to think since things WILL look sloppy when there are battles going on and drops all over the place. Onto the Flash series I don`t even know what to say. He came closer than anyone else beating Flash this month. Yeah his mutamicro was a bit off in game 1 and 4 (tho I think this should be credited equally to Flash supreme Marine control as much as Calms "bad" mutamicro. Its not easy fighting perfectly positioned MnMs that is CONSTANTLY moving with mutas, and here you should notice how Flashs superb play always forced this to happen out in the open where he had plenty of room to maneuver while keeping his bases safe from harass. Game 2 and 3 you cover nicely. Here despite your bashing of his Hive play he comes within inches of going up 2-1 vs Flash in ZvT, this despite everyone else losing badly vs him. Onto game 4, here you once again bash his hiveplay, despite him never getting to use his hive since he died vs an insanely strong early timed push on close positions. Now you hold this AGAINST his ZvT??? He came closer to beating Flash than anyone else has come for the last 3 months.(No ZerOs game on ultimatum was not closer than the Fighting Spirit game). If anything this series was a testament to Calms ZvT skill, not against it. In fact after reading your analyzes of some of those games I begin to question if you even understand the matchup TvZ.
After this you bash on his ZvP despite him pulling in wins consistently in that matchup and just like your wonderboy Shine he keeps on winning in the earlygame (but you never hold that against Shine do you? Once again being inconsistent) with not to much lategame play going on. He is 11-2 in his last 13 ZvPs and still you highly question his ZvP?
Onto Kwanro, I have to admit I have barely watch any of his games the last month (Tho he was his cheesy self in the few I watched vs Stork\Light) so I can`t really comment on it. So his rank can be well deserved for all I know however since you choose to make an argument for him being as high I can guess he don`t deserve it since every other argument you have made for your placements have been either biased or just plain wrong.
Then you have ZerO who dropped out of both leagues, lost ace matches and in general lost every time the stakes got high (granted vs hard opponents) gets to keep his 6th spot due to strong gameplay, while someone like Effort who also showed strong play in lots of his losses (like vs Free and Jangbi where he got into game deciding bad spots early both games but still showed excellent play through the late stages of the games.) gets punished for dropping out of leagues while for ZerO and Stork getting knocked out holds no consequence, again showing your inconsistent judging system. Both Effort and Calm played 15 and 16 games in December that is not much less than ZerO and that is double the amount of Sea and still Effort managed to get a 7-4 score in PL comparable to Seas with double the workload. His losses was vs slightly worse players than Seas but he his wins was vs better players. If all you can remember of Effort is his "embarrassing" loss vs Ruby you can`t have watched many of his games, also how is it embarrassing to lose vs Ruby (Who has been playing some sharp TvZ lately) on a heavily T>Z map? Hell Effort did not even play bad.
Also note that I don`t really care about any of these players, as long as its not Bisu being discussed I consider myself to be totally neutral, and even fairly objective for a fanboy when Bisu is being discussed. I just felt really strongly about this list since I disagree with so much of it and feel that your highly inconsistent in the criteria you use to, especially the arguments you give for your decisions.
I 100% agree with this list. (I would put Calm over Kwanro though)
Stork has been performing consistently in all match-ups, against better players, and looked damn impressive. Jaedong has yet to play a game that knocked my socks off in December. His Starleague routes were much much easier than Stork's. I don't see a single reason why Jaedong should be placed ahead of Stork, unless you really think it matters that he is still in the MSL.
Flash wins every starleague in 2010, exceeding 75% winrate in every matchup. Kespa decides to ban Flash from using Terran because the suspense of who will win is gone, but their clever plan is foiled when Flash continues to win every starleague playing as Protoss, completely reversing the Z>P trend with new builds and strategies. In his winner's interviews for his first Protoss dual OSL/MSL victories: "I should have switched to P years ago, who knew it was this easy?"
North Korea invades South Korea. South Korea wires the controls for all of its tanks and fighter jets to Flash's control. He uses them like siege tanks/wraiths and decimates North Korea (and laughs at them for wasting their eco on making nukes). Bored with the small-fry, he proceeds to somehow make China surrender as well.
Religious tensions in the Middle East disappear as feuding Muslims and Jews realize that their God can't possibly be real, because Flash is God, and they live happily ever after together in Jerusalem, which has now been renamed LeeYoungHoselum.
...
Either that or Flash crashes and loses 0-3 to Shine in OSL, 1-3 to BeSt in MSL, and then gets sent into a permanent slump when his TvT streak gets broken soon after by CuteAngel nuking him.
On January 05 2010 23:17 HuntingX wrote: 2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with.
You have to consider the context of everything. And I do mean EVERYTHING.
Don't quote statistics only without evaluating: 1. The opponents for each win 2. The opponents for each loss 3. The division/league in which the game took place
I see people mentioning how Jaedong's losses was to Flash, the hottest player at the moment, but fail to address how his wins were mainly against mediocre players. You do realize that Jaedong still being in the MSL isn't a major accomplishment due to MSL seedings, right? I'd put more weight into Stork's December PL ace matches than Jaedong's MSL matches so far.
Rank 2 and 3 are rather open-ended if you consider all the different aspects that go into the equation of making a PR. Plexa admitted it was a close-call between Jaedong and Stork, and people who are vehemently arguing that Jaedong/Stork deserves to be higher than the other would not be good at making PRs. Simply because you can't go solely off of numbers and that interpretation is required for PRs. And when there is interpretation, there is also room for variance.
On January 05 2010 23:17 HuntingX wrote: 2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with.
The single biggest issue I have with the "jaedong is still in the MSL" argument is that he's being spoonfed scrubs thanks to the retarded MSL bracket generation system. Let me know when Jaedong faces a real opponent in the MSL kkk
Yeah, JD like Flash gets an easy way into the MSL finals.
On January 05 2010 17:49 7mk wrote: However, people should learn to calm the fuck down and discuss this in a mannered fashion instead of crying like little babies.
Calm down? That IS part of the problem. Hahahaha
"calm the fuck down and discuss this in a mannered fashion" ...like cursing in bold letters?
Haha thats a pretty good pun :D
I garantuee you though, I was as calm as can be when I wrote that post.
On January 05 2010 22:28 Hinanawi wrote: Thought I'd thank Jaedong for tonight so that this gap could happen, at least for now:
I also looked into my crystal ball to predict the future:
Flash wins every starleague in 2010, exceeding 75% winrate in every matchup. Kespa decides to ban Flash from using Terran because the suspense of who will win is gone, but their clever plan is foiled when Flash continues to win every starleague playing as Protoss, completely reversing the Z>P trend with new builds and strategies. In his winner's interviews for his first Protoss dual OSL/MSL victories: "I should have switched to P years ago, who knew it was this easy?"
North Korea invades South Korea. South Korea wires the controls for all of its tanks and fighter jets to Flash's control. He uses them like siege tanks/wraiths and decimates North Korea (and laughs at them for wasting their eco on making nukes). Bored with the small-fry, he proceeds to somehow make China surrender as well.
Religious tensions in the Middle East disappear as feuding Muslims and Jews realize that their God can't possibly be real, because Flash is God, and they live happily ever after together in Jerusalem, which has now been renamed LeeYoungHoselum.
...
Either that or Flash crashes and loses 0-3 to Shine in OSL, 1-3 to BeSt in MSL, and then gets sent into a permanent slump when his TvT streak gets broken soon after by CuteAngel nuking him.
On January 05 2010 13:14 HuntingX wrote: Yes, because the '#2' player getting trashed in 10 minutes against the #1 player, in his BEST MATCHUP, IN AN ACE MATCH, makes perfect sense. Riggggght. Flash didn't even Cheese Stork; he just straightup OWNED him.
Did you even WATCH the game? You're telling me Calm didn't play better than THAT? Seriously? Heck, BEST will play 10x better than that in his BO5 with Flash (and obviously, Best doesn't deserve a spot!). I can't cite Stork v Stats, because then people will say he didn't take Stats seriously (and he probably didn't).
In any event, Stork, out of both leagues, and not performing that well in Proleague. #2 PR? Over... Jaedong? Ignoring results to throw out biased rankings (Sea anywhere is a cosmic joke) makes the whole thing hilarious (and a laughingstock outside of this site).
On January 05 2010 13:14 HuntingX wrote: Yes, because the '#2' player getting trashed in 10 minutes against the #1 player, in his BEST MATCHUP, IN AN ACE MATCH, makes perfect sense. Riggggght. Flash didn't even Cheese Stork; he just straightup OWNED him.
Did you even WATCH the game? You're telling me Calm didn't play better than THAT? Seriously? Heck, BEST will play 10x better than that in his BO5 with Flash (and obviously, Best doesn't deserve a spot!). I can't cite Stork v Stats, because then people will say he didn't take Stats seriously (and he probably didn't).
In any event, Stork, out of both leagues, and not performing that well in Proleague. #2 PR? Over... Jaedong? Ignoring results to throw out biased rankings (Sea anywhere is a cosmic joke) makes the whole thing hilarious (and a laughingstock outside of this site).
You know, citing games that happened AFTER the pr was written is unrelated and makes you look like a complete retard?
Not when most of the PR is based on "the way the games looked" rather than results. It's a bit like giving a player a free pass because you're convinced he's better than his results show, and you expect that to show over time. I'm not arguing this specifically in the case of Stork, but if you base an entire PR on impressions of strength rather than results, it should be expected that you'll be also judged by results that occur after the PR - especially if they don't confirm your rankings.
After all, strength is the ability to win games, and ranking a player that wins less both in the PR month *and* after that higher than one with better results - simply means that the ranking isn't very accurate.
So... Jaedong losing to not-the-number-1-player justifies that stork IS better than jaedong.
On January 06 2010 03:05 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I 100% agree with this list. (I would put Calm over Kwanro though)
Stork has been performing consistently in all match-ups, against better players, and looked damn impressive. Jaedong has yet to play a game that knocked my socks off in December. His Starleague routes were much much easier than Stork's. I don't see a single reason why Jaedong should be placed ahead of Stork, unless you really think it matters that he is still in the MSL.
Outside the three games he lost, he dominated all his other opponents. It's not his fault who he plays, but he made the best of it and raped every single player besides Sea and Flash. Stork however was given the chance to do better as he played better players, but did not perform as well.
Last month: Thankfully, the PR has never been only about results. Calm is a great player. As I've mentioned time and time again, it is his versatility that makes him stand out - from 2 hatch lurker to 5 hatch hydra, he can play the gamut of Zerg builds and do so in style. While a bad record this month does make him drop towards the bottom of the rank, it's difficult to think of many players who can beat him in a bo5 at the moment.
Bisu has had a bad month, yes, and he hasn't been doing so hot. But like you say, it's about overall strength and I don't think there is any protoss out there short of stork who could be argued to be on the same level. Movie? I love him, but he's not where CLOSE to his level. Kwanro? Get outta here.
On January 06 2010 03:05 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I 100% agree with this list. (I would put Calm over Kwanro though)
Stork has been performing consistently in all match-ups, against better players, and looked damn impressive. Jaedong has yet to play a game that knocked my socks off in December. His Starleague routes were much much easier than Stork's. I don't see a single reason why Jaedong should be placed ahead of Stork, unless you really think it matters that he is still in the MSL.
Outside the three games he lost, he dominated all his other opponents. It's not his fault who he plays, but he made the best of it and raped every single player besides Sea and Flash. Stork however was given the chance to do better as he played better players, but did not perform as well.
Outside the four games he lost, he dominated all his other opponents. It's not his fault who he plays, but he made the best of it and raped every single player besides Shine, Effort, and By.Hero. Jaedong however was given the chance to do better as he played better players, but did not perform as well.
On January 06 2010 09:41 excal wrote: Last month: Thankfully, the PR has never been only about results. Calm is a great player. As I've mentioned time and time again, it is his versatility that makes him stand out - from 2 hatch lurker to 5 hatch hydra, he can play the gamut of Zerg builds and do so in style. While a bad record this month does make him drop towards the bottom of the rank, it's difficult to think of many players who can beat him in a bo5 at the moment.
Bisu has had a bad month, yes, and he hasn't been doing so hot. But like you say, it's about overall strength and I don't think there is any protoss out there short of stork who could be argued to be on the same level. Movie? I love him, but he's not where CLOSE to his level. Kwanro? Get outta here.
That's the thing, I never get the impression that the power rank is solely about true skill lvl, as in, if 2 players had a BO5 with the same amount of practice, who would be the favourite (while obviously taking all 3 matchups into consideration), the way you quoted it from last month's PR. If it was then I'd have to agree that Bisu (effort too of course) would have to be in the PR without a doubt, and I say that as someone who doesnt like Bisu. (But for the way PR has been done so far I agree with bisu not being in there) Also Kwanro would have to disappear out of it imo. But like I said, I never get the impression that thats how the PR is done, at least not as long as I have been following it (which isnt long)
On January 06 2010 13:45 ndralcasid wrote: I think Calm's game tonight exemplified why he was ranked so low.
Despite winning, he still played like shit.
QFT
Calm is either Calm or Clam. I have no fate in him. He is just lucky that he keeps meeting shitty players or good players who just happen to play like shit that day and win with less shitty play. Either that, or he suddenly plays like a good player on random occasions. It's as if he enters mini-slumps everyday and return to form every other day.
In comparison, Zero played his matches like a S-class player on fire, except that he lost most of them. He deserves a better rank than Shine, except Shine is delivering the results that Zero failed to deliver.
Which brings up the question, is PR a measure of how powerful a player is this month, or is it a measure of just how successful a player is this month.
On January 06 2010 13:45 ndralcasid wrote: I think Calm's game tonight exemplified why he was ranked so low.
Despite winning, he still played like shit.
Dude Calm is 28 - 8 in his last 36 ZvZs and lots of the wins are against the top zergs . He is currently the best ZvZer right now and it doesn't matter if he plays like shit against Yellow while winning .
There was no justification in placing the guy who is the current MSL champion got to the OSL semis from the OSL group of death as #1 seed and showing impressive games against the best player in the world , while still boosting an impressive record in PL , below Kwanro , Sea and Zero .
The arguments in the PR are "just ZvZ" , 2 hatch muta vs Pure on favourable ZvP maps and in ZvT he solely criticizes Calm's late game management which based on his facts and arguments could be true , he probably has inferior late game management to Zero , Effort , Jaedong , but that doesn't change the fact that he also probably has the best early middle game in ZvT . Even Day[9] always mentions that he is "blown away" by how good Calm's build orders are and how good he is at taking bases without struggling . Starcraft is not just about the late game , i myself think that early and middle game are far more important , because you don't get to late game if you can't survive the early/middle game .
Now take a look at Stork at # 2 which i don't even argue about him , because he has done at least something this month . I will ignore the #1 PvZ it could be true , but there is no evidence that he is , 2 wins in PL against Zero is not enough for that claim .
Lets start with wins against Bisu and Best and put them right next to the "just ZvZ" . Calm has beaten Zero , Effort and Shine last month one of the best ZvZers right now and like i mentioned he is 28-8 in his last 36 ZvZ , this implicates that ZvZ has no value even thought it's by far the hardest MU in the game .
Lets move on to Stork's loses against Shine - the arguments Shine is a ZvP sniper , maps are imbalanced , shine used a semi - cheese to win , and the games were close . The only close game was game 2 which stork won . He barely was able to defend his third base in that game and have he lost it that would have been a reverse rape by Shine . Game 1 and 3 were not even remotely close . Just at 1 point Stork had the advantage in game 1 and that was barely 10 seconds advantage , a beautiful scarab in to fail shuttle snipe with the reaver . From that point on Shine was slowly but surely winning . Most part of the game shine had ~20 supply advantage over stork , cute storm drops were not geting him anywhere . The best definition of game 3 was rape .
Now lets put those arguments next to Calm's " He was only able to win while doing 2 - hatch mutas on imbalanced maps . "
I don't know how this works for protoss players , but all i see are STUPID excuses on why the protoss players lost and why the zerg players won . From reading the PR you would think that Stork moved from # 5 to # 2 because he got cheesed and lost and Calm moved down while he should have moved up this month because he cheesed a mediocre protoss and raped him and lost a set to the best player in the world . I guess geting a Bo loss from Flash's cheese doesn't do the same for JD .
Now honestly tell me from a neutral point of view you don't favoure any player or any race that this isn't the biggest BIAS you have seen in a PR and don't tell me to put on "the protoss's glasses " .
I'm not upset about the placements of the players , but rather the arguments behind them . Arguments like "just ZvZ" "He was only able to win because of 2 hat mutas " , " he got cheesed " " the maps are imbalanced " should never be used to justify placements of the players in a PR in the first place .
And also shit like " despite winning he played like trash " "ZvP is imbalanced" , with all my respect to protoss players i know you are upset that you can't win anything , but keep this insightful knowledge to yourselfs . For months now in live report threads i've been reading this golden comments with also their favourite "gay build and gay player" i've tried not to reason with the angry mob , but now most of it is published in the PR .
Why not just say it " He was only able to win , because of gay Build " the way it's written in the PR it's basicly the same , but it's written in a mannered way .
I have nothing against Plexa he is a great writer and to protoss players in general , but i think i should write this letters in caps :
STORK LOSING TO CHEESE IS HIS OWN FAULT , PURE LOSING TO CHEESE IS HIS OWN FAULT . DON'T BLAME THE MAPS , MATCH-UPS , BUILD ORDERS , CHEESE ALL - IN BLAME THE PLAYER THAT LOST AND THEIR SKILLS !!!! A WIN IS A WIN NO MATTER WHAT HE DID IN THE GAME . WINNING WHILE PLAYING BAD MEANS THAT HE DIDN"T HAVE TO PLAY HIS BEST TO WIN AND THE OTHER PLAYER IS WAY WORSE . YOU DON"T PRAISE PLAYERS , BECAUSE THEY GOT CHEESED AND LOST , AND YOU SHOULDN'T TAKE AWAY FROM PLAYERS THAT ALREADY HAVE REPUTATIONS AS SOLID PLAYERS , BECAUSE THEY'VE CHEESED .
CAN SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW IS DOING A 2 -HAT MUTA BUILD = PLAYING BAD ?
On January 05 2010 16:17 Fenrax wrote: So to point out the weakness of your arguments:
On January 03 2010 22:49 Plexa wrote: Turning to Proleague, Jaedong probably has an edge over Stork.
Not probably, Jaedong performed certainly better in Proleague. Good, we agree on that. So, do I get this right? JD is still in one more Starleague than Stork AND better in Proleague? While the only reason he is out of a Star League at all is because he was paired against the 2400 guy who just came up with a yet uncountered TvZ style and the second game with a brilliant cheese? What could Jaedong have done? He was better in Proleague than Stork and he was flawless in the MSL group. So, his opponents were not that impressive? What could he do about it? Nothing! (Ironically Stork on the other actually could have done something about it. Not 0-2ing in the MSL at the end of November and qualifying for the next round that is. But that was November, so it doesn't count).
The only thing Jaedong could have done better this month would have been to beat Flash in a TvZ, which seems impossible like beating Usain Bolt in a 200m race. On the other hand Stork could have beaten Shine in the OSL, which seems much more possible. (Or, again, qualify for the Dezember MSL rounds and show a good performance there, but again I give you that Stork's Novemver losses don't count for Dezember).
You forgot that he likes Pure ...
On January 03 2010 22:49 Plexa wrote: To try and force some separation between the two I concerned their November records. Both were impresssive. Jaedong had some key losses to crap zergs, while Stork has a really terrible end of november
So you concerned November records?
What really enrages me is this part: "JD had some key losses against crap Zergs" in November? What an incredible biased way to say things. How about saying it like THIS?
Jaedong had ONLY 2 losses in all games in the whole month of November in which he also won the world Cyber games title while Stork ended the month with 4 losses in a row.
So, I ask you, plexa, WHAT kind of November data gave Stork the edge? Losing 4x in a row right before the datat collection for PR Dezember began? Losing to JD in WCG finals? Losing twice as often as Jaedong in regular games in November?
November and Dezember combined Stork was overall 15-8 while Jaedong was 19-5. And that is NOT including the games for Jaedongs WCG title.
So, go ahead, tell me, what kind of November data did you use?
Probably the unofficial one he turns to when the real data can`t support his claims, I heard apparently JD lost more games in practice than Stork during November\December! LOL
On a serious note, your a great poster and a great guy Plexa, but you really fucked up hard on this PowerRank and its so glaringly apparent that your biased. You LOVE MBC check, You LOVE Kwanro check, you HATE Jaedong check. You then proceed to place Stork above JD and as Fenrax showed superbly in his post that was just wrong, no matter how you look at it. Also you claim non of his games are close except his losses, did his game3 vs SHine or the game vs Effort look very close to you? Then you put Sea at 7th despite him going only 5-3 the month and having no leagues to practice for. (Yeah 2 of his losses was vs good opponents, but the only good player he beat was JD the rest kinda sucks or at least are playing like trash lately, see Yarnc, Hero, FBH). Despite having players like Kal who went 10-3 for the month still in one league (note his PL performance was 5-3 the same as Sea, tho vs slightly weaker opponents, but he has yet dropped a game in MSL and had a bigger workload). Or Violet whos performed similar vs slightly worse opponents going 6-3 (but beating Sea himself)
Then you have someone like Calm going 6-2 in PL vs probably stronger opponents than Sea while maintaining 11-5 with his 3 remaining losses coming from Flash. Now you give a reason for it, which in my opinion is just a load of crap. His game vs Piano he did not pull way ahead (He got in a good spot, but in no way a gamedeciding advantage), he had ruined his eco to do 2hatch lurkers which killed some MnM (which T will spew out lots of new ones anyway) a bunker and a scan. Then he proceeds to transition into a normal game which includes hive (So in essence your punishing him for not going some kind of all in that would have ended the game pre hive). Then he manages to coordinate a strong attack on Ts natural and shut it down for the rest of the game while still defending back home and you call this poor play??? Yeah the Fantasy game he played kind a sloppy, but not nearly as bad as everyone seem to think since things WILL look sloppy when there are battles going on and drops all over the place. Onto the Flash series I don`t even know what to say. He came closer than anyone else beating Flash this month. Yeah his mutamicro was a bit off in game 1 and 4 (tho I think this should be credited equally to Flash supreme Marine control as much as Calms "bad" mutamicro. Its not easy fighting perfectly positioned MnMs that is CONSTANTLY moving with mutas, and here you should notice how Flashs superb play always forced this to happen out in the open where he had plenty of room to maneuver while keeping his bases safe from harass. Game 2 and 3 you cover nicely. Here despite your bashing of his Hive play he comes within inches of going up 2-1 vs Flash in ZvT, this despite everyone else losing badly vs him. Onto game 4, here you once again bash his hiveplay, despite him never getting to use his hive since he died vs an insanely strong early timed push on close positions. Now you hold this AGAINST his ZvT??? He came closer to beating Flash than anyone else has come for the last 3 months.(No ZerOs game on ultimatum was not closer than the Fighting Spirit game). If anything this series was a testament to Calms ZvT skill, not against it. In fact after reading your analyzes of some of those games I begin to question if you even understand the matchup TvZ.
After this you bash on his ZvP despite him pulling in wins consistently in that matchup and just like your wonderboy Shine he keeps on winning in the earlygame (but you never hold that against Shine do you? Once again being inconsistent) with not to much lategame play going on. He is 11-2 in his last 13 ZvPs and still you highly question his ZvP?
Onto Kwanro, I have to admit I have barely watch any of his games the last month (Tho he was his cheesy self in the few I watched vs Stork\Light) so I can`t really comment on it. So his rank can be well deserved for all I know however since you choose to make an argument for him being as high I can guess he don`t deserve it since every other argument you have made for your placements have been either biased or just plain wrong.
Then you have ZerO who dropped out of both leagues, lost ace matches and in general lost every time the stakes got high (granted vs hard opponents) gets to keep his 6th spot due to strong gameplay, while someone like Effort who also showed strong play in lots of his losses (like vs Free and Jangbi where he got into game deciding bad spots early both games but still showed excellent play through the late stages of the games.) gets punished for dropping out of leagues while for ZerO and Stork getting knocked out holds no consequence, again showing your inconsistent judging system. Both Effort and Calm played 15 and 16 games in December that is not much less than ZerO and that is double the amount of Sea and still Effort managed to get a 7-4 score in PL comparable to Seas with double the workload. His losses was vs slightly worse players than Seas but he his wins was vs better players. If all you can remember of Effort is his "embarrassing" loss vs Ruby you can`t have watched many of his games, also how is it embarrassing to lose vs Ruby (Who has been playing some sharp TvZ lately) on a heavily T>Z map? Hell Effort did not even play bad.
Also note that I don`t really care about any of these players, as long as its not Bisu being discussed I consider myself to be totally neutral, and even fairly objective for a fanboy when Bisu is being discussed. I just felt really strongly about this list since I disagree with so much of it and feel that your highly inconsistent in the criteria you use to, especially the arguments you give for your decisions.
On January 05 2010 23:17 HuntingX wrote: 2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with.
The single biggest issue I have with the "jaedong is still in the MSL" argument is that he's being spoonfed scrubs thanks to the retarded MSL bracket generation system. Let me know when Jaedong faces a real opponent in the MSL kkk
Is this even accurate? Seeding after Kespa ranks just starts with the quarter-finals. Of course JD was seeded in his Ro32 group (since he made Ro4 last year), and since he won that one, of course he got to play someone who finished second in his group (aka Firefist, could have been Ruby).
Until his series against stats (which hasn't finished yet), it has been a normal MSL for him. And in the Ro4 his opponent will either be Kal or Hwasin, so he will in fact face a real opponent then.
On another note, although I believe JD should have been second, I don't think he will win a SL this season, even if Flash wasn't the monster he is right now. I just feel that he does not have the dedication in his eyes that he had last year. Quite understandable after back-2-back OSLs. Even a tyrant needs to rest sometime.
On January 05 2010 23:17 HuntingX wrote: 2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with.
The single biggest issue I have with the "jaedong is still in the MSL" argument is that he's being spoonfed scrubs thanks to the retarded MSL bracket generation system. Let me know when Jaedong faces a real opponent in the MSL kkk
Is this even accurate? Seeding after Kespa ranks just starts with the quarter-finals. Of course JD was seeded in his Ro32 group (since he made Ro4 last year), and since he won that one, of course he got to play someone who finished second in his group (aka Firefist, could have been Ruby).
Until his series against stats (which hasn't finished yet), it has been a normal MSL for him. And in the Ro4 his opponent will either be Kal or Hwasin, so he will in fact face a real opponent then.
On another note, although I believe JD should have been second, I don't think he will win a SL this season, even if Flash wasn't the monster he is right now. I just feel that he does not have the dedication in his eyes that he had last year. Quite understandable after back-2-back OSLs. Even a tyrant needs to rest sometime.
I agree that Jaedong doesn't look as good right now , but if Flash get's eliminated i don't see who will stop him . With the exception of probably Light who is a solid TvZer still in a Bo5 would be tough for Light . A protoss player ? NO ; Kwanro ? doubt it in a BO 5 . I think Flash vs Jaedong on paper is a lock unless Best/Light cause the upsets ...
On January 05 2010 23:17 HuntingX wrote: 2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with.
The single biggest issue I have with the "jaedong is still in the MSL" argument is that he's being spoonfed scrubs thanks to the retarded MSL bracket generation system. Let me know when Jaedong faces a real opponent in the MSL kkk
Is this even accurate? Seeding after Kespa ranks just starts with the quarter-finals. Of course JD was seeded in his Ro32 group (since he made Ro4 last year), and since he won that one, of course he got to play someone who finished second in his group (aka Firefist, could have been Ruby).
Until his series against stats (which hasn't finished yet), it has been a normal MSL for him. And in the Ro4 his opponent will either be Kal or Hwasin, so he will in fact face a real opponent then.
On another note, although I believe JD should have been second, I don't think he will win a SL this season, even if Flash wasn't the monster he is right now. I just feel that he does not have the dedication in his eyes that he had last year. Quite understandable after back-2-back OSLs. Even a tyrant needs to rest sometime.
I agree that Jaedong doesn't look as good right now , but if Flash get's eliminated i don't see who will stop him . With the exception of probably Light who is a solid TvZer still in a Bo5 would be tough for Light . A protoss player ? NO ; Kwanro ? doubt it in a BO 5 . I think Flash vs Jaedong on paper is a lock unless Best/Light cause the upsets ...
Flash has a tendency to drop to low caliber gamers, and he got to face Best, even if up 1 game, and JD. JD will stomp him, Best has a chanse too.
I actually really like this power rank, not much to dispute - though I'm considering arguing Shine>Jaedong just to see nerd heads explode (I don't really think that, I promise!)
I also fully endorse this alternate power rank: 1: Flash 2: Flash 3: Flash 4: Flash 5: Flash 6: Flash 7: Flash 8: Stork 9: Jaedong 10: Shine's grandma
I think it sums up the state of things pretty well.
Dude Calm is 28 - 8 in his last 36 ZvZs and lots of the wins are against the top zergs . He is currently the best ZvZer right now and it doesn't matter if he plays like shit against Yellow while winning .
There was no justification in placing the guy who is the current MSL champion got to the OSL semis from the OSL group of death as #1 seed and showing impressive games against the best player in the world , while still boosting an impressive record in PL , below Kwanro , Sea and Zero .
The arguments in the PR are "just ZvZ" , 2 hatch muta vs Pure on favourable ZvP maps and in ZvT he solely criticizes Calm's late game management which based on his facts and arguments could be true , he probably has inferior late game management to Zero , Effort , Jaedong , but that doesn't change the fact that he also probably has the best early middle game in ZvT . Even Day[9] always mentions that he is "blown away" by how good Calm's build orders are and how good he is at taking bases without struggling . Starcraft is not just about the late game , i myself think that early and middle game are far more important , because you don't get to late game if you can't survive the early/middle game .
Now take a look at Stork at # 2 which i don't even argue about him , because he has done at least something this month . I will ignore the #1 PvZ it could be true , but there is no evidence that he is , 2 wins in PL against Zero is not enough for that claim .
Lets start with wins against Bisu and Best and put them right next to the "just ZvZ" . Calm has beaten Zero , Effort and Shine last month one of the best ZvZers right now and like i mentioned he is 28-8 in his last 36 ZvZ , this implicates that ZvZ has no value even thought it's by far the hardest MU in the game .
Lets move on to Stork's loses against Shine - the arguments Shine is a ZvP sniper , maps are imbalanced , shine used a semi - cheese to win , and the games were close . The only close game was game 2 which stork won . He barely was able to defend his third base in that game and have he lost it that would have been a reverse rape by Shine . Game 1 and 3 were not even remotely close . Just at 1 point Stork had the advantage in game 1 and that was barely 10 seconds advantage , a beautiful scarab in to fail shuttle snipe with the reaver . From that point on Shine was slowly but surely winning . Most part of the game shine had ~20 supply advantage over stork , cute storm drops were not geting him anywhere . The best definition of game 3 was rape .
Now lets put those arguments next to Calm's " He was only able to win while doing 2 - hatch mutas on imbalanced maps . "
I don't know how this works for protoss players , but all i see are STUPID excuses on why the protoss players lost and why the zerg players won . From reading the PR you would think that Stork moved from # 5 to # 2 because he got cheesed and lost and Calm moved down while he should have moved up this month because he cheesed a mediocre protoss and raped him and lost a set to the best player in the world . I guess geting a Bo loss from Flash's cheese doesn't do the same for JD .
Now honestly tell me from a neutral point of view you don't favoure any player or any race that this isn't the biggest BIAS you have seen in a PR and don't tell me to put on "the protoss's glasses " .
I'm not upset about the placements of the players , but rather the arguments behind them . Arguments like "just ZvZ" "He was only able to win because of 2 hat mutas " , " he got cheesed " " the maps are imbalanced " should never be used to justify placements of the players in a PR in the first place .
And also shit like " despite winning he played like trash " "ZvP is imbalanced" , with all my respect to protoss players i know you are upset that you can't win anything , but keep this insightful knowledge to yourselfs . For months now in live report threads i've been reading this golden comments with also their favourite "gay build and gay player" i've tried not to reason with the angry mob , but now most of it is published in the PR .
Why not just say it " He was only able to win , because of gay Build " the way it's written in the PR it's basicly the same , but it's written in a mannered way .
I have nothing against Plexa he is a great writer and to protoss players in general , but i think i should write this letters in caps :
STORK LOSING TO CHEESE IS HIS OWN FAULT , PURE LOSING TO CHEESE IS HIS OWN FAULT . DON'T BLAME THE MAPS , MATCH-UPS , BUILD ORDERS , CHEESE ALL - IN BLAME THE PLAYER THAT LOST AND THEIR SKILLS !!!! A WIN IS A WIN NO MATTER WHAT HE DID IN THE GAME . WINNING WHILE PLAYING BAD MEANS THAT HE DIDN"T HAVE TO PLAY HIS BEST TO WIN AND THE OTHER PLAYER IS WAY WORSE . YOU DON"T PRAISE PLAYERS , BECAUSE THEY GOT CHEESED AND LOST , AND YOU SHOULDN'T TAKE AWAY FROM PLAYERS THAT ALREADY HAVE REPUTATIONS AS SOLID PLAYERS , BECAUSE THEY'VE CHEESED .
CAN SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW IS DOING A 2 -HAT MUTA BUILD = PLAYING BAD ?
There's no point in even trying to argue with it. Plexa writes off a player's success in an entire match-up by saying "it's ZvZ". How do you even discuss that? Hahah. It's obviously very arbitrary and anything goes.
On January 06 2010 19:17 raga4ka wrote: STORK LOSING TO CHEESE IS HIS OWN FAULT , PURE LOSING TO CHEESE IS HIS OWN FAULT . DON'T BLAME THE MAPS , MATCH-UPS , BUILD ORDERS , CHEESE ALL - IN BLAME THE PLAYER THAT LOST AND THEIR SKILLS !!!! A WIN IS A WIN NO MATTER WHAT HE DID IN THE GAME .
Losing in a practically unwinnable game doesn't make any person look bad you know, especially el nino. Theres only 2 protoss that ever actually beat anyone on el nino, and they're arguably the best pvzers out there right now.
On January 05 2010 23:17 HuntingX wrote: 2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with.
The single biggest issue I have with the "jaedong is still in the MSL" argument is that he's being spoonfed scrubs thanks to the retarded MSL bracket generation system. Let me know when Jaedong faces a real opponent in the MSL kkk
Is this even accurate? Seeding after Kespa ranks just starts with the quarter-finals. Of course JD was seeded in his Ro32 group (since he made Ro4 last year), and since he won that one, of course he got to play someone who finished second in his group (aka Firefist, could have been Ruby).
Until his series against stats (which hasn't finished yet), it has been a normal MSL for him. And in the Ro4 his opponent will either be Kal or Hwasin, so he will in fact face a real opponent then.
On another note, although I believe JD should have been second, I don't think he will win a SL this season, even if Flash wasn't the monster he is right now. I just feel that he does not have the dedication in his eyes that he had last year. Quite understandable after back-2-back OSLs. Even a tyrant needs to rest sometime.
I agree that Jaedong doesn't look as good right now , but if Flash get's eliminated i don't see who will stop him . With the exception of probably Light who is a solid TvZer still in a Bo5 would be tough for Light . A protoss player ? NO ; Kwanro ? doubt it in a BO 5 . I think Flash vs Jaedong on paper is a lock unless Best/Light cause the upsets ...
Flash has a tendency to drop to low caliber gamers, and he got to face Best, even if up 1 game, and JD. JD will stomp him, Best has a chanse too.
Like he did in the 1st game on Fighting Spirit? or 2nd game Neo HBR? or maybe you're saying he's gonna stomp him the same way he stomped Sea in Proleague? Less fanboism more realism.
On January 05 2010 23:17 HuntingX wrote: 2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with.
The single biggest issue I have with the "jaedong is still in the MSL" argument is that he's being spoonfed scrubs thanks to the retarded MSL bracket generation system. Let me know when Jaedong faces a real opponent in the MSL kkk
Is this even accurate? Seeding after Kespa ranks just starts with the quarter-finals. Of course JD was seeded in his Ro32 group (since he made Ro4 last year), and since he won that one, of course he got to play someone who finished second in his group (aka Firefist, could have been Ruby).
Until his series against stats (which hasn't finished yet), it has been a normal MSL for him. And in the Ro4 his opponent will either be Kal or Hwasin, so he will in fact face a real opponent then.
On another note, although I believe JD should have been second, I don't think he will win a SL this season, even if Flash wasn't the monster he is right now. I just feel that he does not have the dedication in his eyes that he had last year. Quite understandable after back-2-back OSLs. Even a tyrant needs to rest sometime.
I agree that Jaedong doesn't look as good right now , but if Flash get's eliminated i don't see who will stop him . With the exception of probably Light who is a solid TvZer still in a Bo5 would be tough for Light . A protoss player ? NO ; Kwanro ? doubt it in a BO 5 . I think Flash vs Jaedong on paper is a lock unless Best/Light cause the upsets ...
Flash has a tendency to drop to low caliber gamers, and he got to face Best, even if up 1 game, and JD. JD will stomp him, Best has a chanse too.
Flash is and always has been the least likely person to drop games to low tier gamers.
2 of my favorite players are not on =( (and 1 of them is slumping so i dont really care) hope that this month effort and fant would get into the power rank =( I want (wish) 1: effort in the PR 2: movie to stay 3: stork to stay 4: bisu goes into PR 5: fant goes into PR 6: dont cares about the other xD (maybe jeadong but flash? naaah)
On January 05 2010 23:17 HuntingX wrote: 2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with.
The single biggest issue I have with the "jaedong is still in the MSL" argument is that he's being spoonfed scrubs thanks to the retarded MSL bracket generation system. Let me know when Jaedong faces a real opponent in the MSL kkk
Is this even accurate? Seeding after Kespa ranks just starts with the quarter-finals. Of course JD was seeded in his Ro32 group (since he made Ro4 last year), and since he won that one, of course he got to play someone who finished second in his group (aka Firefist, could have been Ruby).
Until his series against stats (which hasn't finished yet), it has been a normal MSL for him. And in the Ro4 his opponent will either be Kal or Hwasin, so he will in fact face a real opponent then.
On another note, although I believe JD should have been second, I don't think he will win a SL this season, even if Flash wasn't the monster he is right now. I just feel that he does not have the dedication in his eyes that he had last year. Quite understandable after back-2-back OSLs. Even a tyrant needs to rest sometime.
I agree that Jaedong doesn't look as good right now , but if Flash get's eliminated i don't see who will stop him . With the exception of probably Light who is a solid TvZer still in a Bo5 would be tough for Light . A protoss player ? NO ; Kwanro ? doubt it in a BO 5 . I think Flash vs Jaedong on paper is a lock unless Best/Light cause the upsets ...
Flash has a tendency to drop to low caliber gamers, and he got to face Best, even if up 1 game, and JD. JD will stomp him, Best has a chanse too.
Flash is and always has been the least likely person to drop games to low tier gamers.
This. He choked against players he shouldn't have which lead to him getting kicked out of individual leagues again and again but no way does he have a tendency to drop games against low caliber gamers. The fact that he's achieved a 70% win rate after 300+ games won proves this fact.
He demolished proleague last year but lost whenever KT needed him to win. If anything, his past failings proves the opposite. That he crushed everyone who isn't "good" yet didn't have the stuff to take on the very best (which obviously isn't really true anymore).
(If Geo.Rion is claiming that Best is a "low caliber gamer" in that post, he's completely wrong. His PvT has always been the real deal)
On January 06 2010 19:17 raga4ka wrote: STORK LOSING TO CHEESE IS HIS OWN FAULT , PURE LOSING TO CHEESE IS HIS OWN FAULT . DON'T BLAME THE MAPS , MATCH-UPS , BUILD ORDERS , CHEESE ALL - IN BLAME THE PLAYER THAT LOST AND THEIR SKILLS !!!! A WIN IS A WIN NO MATTER WHAT HE DID IN THE GAME .
Losing in a practically unwinnable game doesn't make any person look bad you know, especially el nino. Theres only 2 protoss that ever actually beat anyone on el nino, and they're arguably the best pvzers out there right now.
Of course how they lose is relevant. Pure played like shit, his loss was valid. And stork totally misplayed against those mass mutas, though who knows how much some features of the map played a part in his crappy response, I donno.
On January 06 2010 19:17 raga4ka wrote: STORK LOSING TO CHEESE IS HIS OWN FAULT , PURE LOSING TO CHEESE IS HIS OWN FAULT . DON'T BLAME THE MAPS , MATCH-UPS , BUILD ORDERS , CHEESE ALL - IN BLAME THE PLAYER THAT LOST AND THEIR SKILLS !!!! A WIN IS A WIN NO MATTER WHAT HE DID IN THE GAME .
Losing in a practically unwinnable game doesn't make any person look bad you know, especially el nino. Theres only 2 protoss that ever actually beat anyone on el nino, and they're arguably the best pvzers out there right now.
Of course how they lose is relevant. Pure played like shit, his loss was valid. And stork totally misplayed against those mass mutas, though who knows how much some features of the map played a part in his crappy response, I donno.
There were no gas expansions for him to take, so he had no way to fight the mutalisks.
On January 07 2010 15:13 Avidkeystamper wrote: Yeah, but the general consensus is that an easy third gas makes a map Z>P.
No. Easy third gas for Zerg + hard third gas for Protoss makes a map Z>P.
Fighting Spirit has easy third gas for both players, and is fiercely competitive. El Nino has easy third + fourth gas for Zerg, and very hard third gas for Protoss --> Z>>P rape.
I guess an anti-JD club should be founded. it would have contless members, and at least less ppl would conplain about PR when one of its members writes the PR, some placements wouldnt be discussed this much.
On January 07 2010 22:55 Geo.Rion wrote: I guess an anti-JD club should be founded. it would have contless members, and at least less ppl would conplain about PR when one of its members writes the PR, some placements wouldnt be discussed this much.
People are whining way too much about JDs placement imo. Nobody actually argues that he should be no1 so they are talking about one spot. Doesnt seem huge enough for all the controversy to me. Besides, stork should always be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to silver medal
There isn't much wrong with Kwarno. He is the lowest-end S-class zerg, but he is still a monster and I think most progamers would tell you they fear going up against him.
On January 07 2010 22:55 Geo.Rion wrote: I guess an anti-JD club should be founded. it would have contless members, and at least less ppl would conplain about PR when one of its members writes the PR, some placements wouldnt be discussed this much.
Jaedong is one of the most well-liked and admired gamers on this site, wtf are you talking about.
On January 07 2010 22:55 Geo.Rion wrote: I guess an anti-JD club should be founded. it would have contless members, and at least less ppl would conplain about PR when one of its members writes the PR, some placements wouldnt be discussed this much.
Jaedong is one of the most well-liked and admired gamers on this site, wtf are you talking about.
guess i'm reading the wrong topics, and the wrong articles. Plexa is well known for his JD-hate, explained in countless audios and comments (we dont realy have other anti-fan admins, do we?), and the PR thread is always filled with JD haters, so are the LR threads time to time, although i havent read them so much recently.
On January 05 2010 23:17 HuntingX wrote: 2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with.
The single biggest issue I have with the "jaedong is still in the MSL" argument is that he's being spoonfed scrubs thanks to the retarded MSL bracket generation system. Let me know when Jaedong faces a real opponent in the MSL kkk
Is this even accurate? Seeding after Kespa ranks just starts with the quarter-finals. Of course JD was seeded in his Ro32 group (since he made Ro4 last year), and since he won that one, of course he got to play someone who finished second in his group (aka Firefist, could have been Ruby).
Until his series against stats (which hasn't finished yet), it has been a normal MSL for him. And in the Ro4 his opponent will either be Kal or Hwasin, so he will in fact face a real opponent then.
On another note, although I believe JD should have been second, I don't think he will win a SL this season, even if Flash wasn't the monster he is right now. I just feel that he does not have the dedication in his eyes that he had last year. Quite understandable after back-2-back OSLs. Even a tyrant needs to rest sometime.
I agree that Jaedong doesn't look as good right now , but if Flash get's eliminated i don't see who will stop him . With the exception of probably Light who is a solid TvZer still in a Bo5 would be tough for Light . A protoss player ? NO ; Kwanro ? doubt it in a BO 5 . I think Flash vs Jaedong on paper is a lock unless Best/Light cause the upsets ...
Flash has a tendency to drop to low caliber gamers, and he got to face Best, even if up 1 game, and JD. JD will stomp him, Best has a chanse too.
wtf? Where the hell have you been the last few weeks?(or months) Or years if were not exclusively talking about individual leagues
On January 07 2010 22:55 Geo.Rion wrote: I guess an anti-JD club should be founded. it would have contless members, and at least less ppl would conplain about PR when one of its members writes the PR, some placements wouldnt be discussed this much.
Jaedong is one of the most well-liked and admired gamers on this site, wtf are you talking about.
guess i'm reading the wrong topics, and the wrong articles. Plexa is well known for his JD-hate, explained in countless audios and comments (we dont realy have other anti-fan admins, do we?), and the PR thread is always filled with JD haters, so are the LR threads time to time, although i havent read them so much recently.
Have you read the best vs flash LR? Do you see how much shit flash gets there? There's always a lot of people flaming the one player who is the most successful, flash is even getting more shit than JD was. Jaedong is still easily one of the 3 most popular pro gamers (out of those who can still play this game at top lvl)
P.S. everyone give Plexa a break, it's his birthday after all :p
Bisu not in the rank seems pretty fail to me. Stork seems to be overrated too.
Too big a deal is made of Bisu dropping a single game to Stork IMO. Stork is an S class player after all. Similarly it's really not much of a shame for Jaedong to lose to Flash's TvZ. And I don't see Stork as "the reigning Protoss king".
Zero doesn't seem significantly better than Effort to me, and surely going 0-2 vs Stork with zerg is more of a shame than going 0-1 vs Stork with protoss?
Stork should be like 3-5 (with Jaedong at 2) and Bisu like 6-8 (with Zero out) IMO. Other than that I don't disagree that much.
On January 08 2010 05:11 x11tman wrote: Bisu not in the rank seems pretty fail to me. Stork seems to be overrated too.
Too big a deal is made of Bisu dropping a single game to Stork IMO. Stork is an S class player after all. Similarly it's really not much of a shame for Jaedong to lose to Flash's TvZ. And I don't see Stork as "the reigning Protoss king".
Zero doesn't seem significantly better than Effort to me, and surely going 0-2 vs Stork with zerg is more of a shame than going 0-1 vs Stork with protoss?
Stork should be like 3-5 (with Jaedong at 2) and Bisu like 6-8 (with Zero out) IMO. Other than that I don't disagree that much.
thats like saying i'd like a what he ordered (coffee with sugar) but instead of coffee tea and honey lemon and no sugar
On January 03 2010 09:44 StylishVODs wrote: sure then don't lower stork. just don't raise him above jaedong.
Stork just dropped out of both leagues and he is raised to nr 2 over jaedong from nr5 who would be in both leagues had he not faced flash and their skill is very similuar. Although I think jaedong is better.
i don't see how this is defendable, stork bias.
However, stork's play is slightly better than jaedong's. This is why he should be in #2.
Ahhh, that must be why he got knocked out of both leagues. Because he's playing slightly better.
Silly me.
It's not like Stork got knocked out by powerhouses either.
On January 03 2010 09:44 StylishVODs wrote: sure then don't lower stork. just don't raise him above jaedong.
Stork just dropped out of both leagues and he is raised to nr 2 over jaedong from nr5 who would be in both leagues had he not faced flash and their skill is very similuar. Although I think jaedong is better.
i don't see how this is defendable, stork bias.
However, stork's play is slightly better than jaedong's. This is why he should be in #2.
Ahhh, that must be why he got knocked out of both leagues. Because he's playing slightly better.
Silly me.
It's not like Stork got knocked out by powerhouses either.
That alone doesnt mean that he hasnt played better. While I agree that Jaedong is better than Stork your post is disgustingly arrogant.
On January 07 2010 22:55 Geo.Rion wrote: I guess an anti-JD club should be founded. it would have contless members, and at least less ppl would conplain about PR when one of its members writes the PR, some placements wouldnt be discussed this much.
Jaedong is one of the most well-liked and admired gamers on this site, wtf are you talking about.
guess i'm reading the wrong topics, and the wrong articles. Plexa is well known for his JD-hate, explained in countless audios and comments (we dont realy have other anti-fan admins, do we?), and the PR thread is always filled with JD haters, so are the LR threads time to time, although i havent read them so much recently.
Every player attracts haters when they're doing extremely well, but overall I think Jaedong has always been respected on this site. People used to be quick to call "slump", but that stopped after Jaedong proved them wrong for the billionth time. I've seen a lot of posts recently to the effect that you can never ever count Jaedong out, which is a very high compliment; and it stems from his important wins over fantasy and Bisu last year when people wondered whether Jaedong was an underdog.
Basically, even now that Flash is doing better than Jaedong, people still (rightfully) give Jaedong massive amounts of credit as well as the benefit of the doubt. I'm pretty sure he's one of the most popular players on this site, and I certainly don't see him getting nearly as much hate as Flash right now.
Of the four 'Heavenly Kings', Jaedong definitely has the least number of anti-fans. There have never been many people who cheered against Jaedong in LR threads (as in, cheered specifically for JD to lose no matter who he was facing), for example. I think he's generally well-liked even by people who aren't rabid fans of his (I know I like him a lot, and I'm not a JD fan).
Next up is probably Stork, who seems to be everybody's 'second favorite player'. He did have some anti-fans for a long time (including FakeSteve), and the whole "lol Stork choooooker" crowd who enjoys seeing him place 2nd in everything, but overall he's well-liked, especially recently with his colorful interviews and that homoerotic Stork pictures thread.
3rd and 4th would be Bisu and Flash, who both have a lot of anti-fans. A couple months ago I would have said Bisu had the most anti-fans, but Flash has caught up lately and will probably become the progamer with by far the most number of anti-fans if he wins both titles.
I think placing Stork over Jaedong is relatively small issue in this PR. Sure, I would put personally Jaedong on 2nd spot but hey, Strok was playing really well in December as well.
Now, Seeing Calm at 9th, Sea at 7th, while Kwanro and Zero are above Calm and Violet completely neglected is really disturbing.
Wow Shine, way to choke. Kiss your high ranking spot in the PR goodbye
Choke? He played the same way he did vs Bisu\Stork except his style has been figured out by movie. Ultimate ZvP sniper was a bit premature.
I have to agree Movie countered him really good . They both played well with the exception of the fourth game where Shine underestimated Movie's timing attack , doubt it was choke but more or less bad defence and excellent timing on Movie's part .
The way he played at key moments is pretty indicative that his nerves were getting to him =/ i.e. his hydra control during the cannon break in game 1 as opposed to his hydra control later on in game 1 and then in game 2 where he choked as he was dropped and movie was moving out bleh
On January 08 2010 10:27 Hinanawi wrote: Of the four 'Heavenly Kings', Jaedong definitely has the least number of anti-fans. There have never been many people who cheered against Jaedong in LR threads (as in, cheered specifically for JD to lose no matter who he was facing), for example. I think he's generally well-liked even by people who aren't rabid fans of his (I know I like him a lot, and I'm not a JD fan).
Next up is probably Stork, who seems to be everybody's 'second favorite player'. He did have some anti-fans for a long time (including FakeSteve), and the whole "lol Stork choooooker" crowd who enjoys seeing him place 2nd in everything, but overall he's well-liked, especially recently with his colorful interviews and that homoerotic Stork pictures thread.
3rd and 4th would be Bisu and Flash, who both have a lot of anti-fans. A couple months ago I would have said Bisu had the most anti-fans, but Flash has caught up lately and will probably become the progamer with by far the most number of anti-fans if he wins both titles.
lol its funny because im both a stork anti fan and a jd anti fan. And a Sea anti fan. :O
The way he played at key moments is pretty indicative that his nerves were getting to him =/ i.e. his hydra control during the cannon break in game 1 as opposed to his hydra control later on in game 1 and then in game 2 where he choked as he was dropped and movie was moving out bleh
Yeah, but Movie was at least as nervous as Shine was. It's both people's first Bo5. And Movie had to play against a good player on bad maps for him.
He clearly showed his PvZ is way stronger than Bisu/Stork's is.
His PvZ is topnotch but its impossible to clearly say its better than bisu and stork he was better prepared for shine, he had the advantage of playing him later on.. Shine cant win a straightup game with any of the mentioned players.
On January 08 2010 10:27 Hinanawi wrote: Of the four 'Heavenly Kings', Jaedong definitely has the least number of anti-fans. There have never been many people who cheered against Jaedong in LR threads (as in, cheered specifically for JD to lose no matter who he was facing), for example. I think he's generally well-liked even by people who aren't rabid fans of his (I know I like him a lot, and I'm not a JD fan).
Next up is probably Stork, who seems to be everybody's 'second favorite player'. He did have some anti-fans for a long time (including FakeSteve), and the whole "lol Stork choooooker" crowd who enjoys seeing him place 2nd in everything, but overall he's well-liked, especially recently with his colorful interviews and that homoerotic Stork pictures thread.
3rd and 4th would be Bisu and Flash, who both have a lot of anti-fans. A couple months ago I would have said Bisu had the most anti-fans, but Flash has caught up lately and will probably become the progamer with by far the most number of anti-fans if he wins both titles.
lol its funny because im both a stork anti fan and a jd anti fan. And a Sea anti fan. :O
The way he played at key moments is pretty indicative that his nerves were getting to him =/ i.e. his hydra control during the cannon break in game 1 as opposed to his hydra control later on in game 1 and then in game 2 where he choked as he was dropped and movie was moving out bleh
Shine's failure to dodge a single storm at the end of Game 1 was really embarrassing. So to was his (lack of) observer sniping in Game 2, and his near-choke in Game 3, where Movie handed him an advantage on a platter. Game 4 was pretty horrendous too.
But Shine has always been a cheesy all-in player, and with enough preparation, he just got rocked by a player who was prepared and miles ahead in game sense and ability. Not surprising.
The way he played at key moments is pretty indicative that his nerves were getting to him =/ i.e. his hydra control during the cannon break in game 1 as opposed to his hydra control later on in game 1 and then in game 2 where he choked as he was dropped and movie was moving out bleh
I'm sure that movie also did lots of mistakes he wouldn't have done in practice, like the way he lost his first shuttle to shines scourge in game 2 iirc. And game 3? come on that was ridiculous how he didn't even have a single cannon in his base. Movie just played better, even in game 3 where he was behind big time I felt like after he got that big disadvantage he still played better. He's just the better player in general(at that mu).
Do we really need to put this in spoilers? I would never think about going into a thread with PR discussion after an important match.
The way he played at key moments is pretty indicative that his nerves were getting to him =/ i.e. his hydra control during the cannon break in game 1 as opposed to his hydra control later on in game 1 and then in game 2 where he choked as he was dropped and movie was moving out bleh
Yeah, but Movie was at least as nervous as Shine was. It's both people's first Bo5. And Movie had to play against a good player on bad maps for him.
He clearly showed his PvZ is way stronger than Bisu/Stork's is.
How did he show that his PvZ is way stronger? Because he managed to beat Shine? Sure Movie has a very strong PvZ, but to draw the conclusion that he is way stronger at it than say Bisu who is 17-5 in his last 22 PvZ, a career winrate of 66.4% and on a 7 game winstreak vs Z is ignorant at best. While Bisu losing to Shine was bad, he did it during a time when Zergs was killing Protosses left and right and the tosses had yet found a good counter to the muta snipes.
The way he played at key moments is pretty indicative that his nerves were getting to him =/ i.e. his hydra control during the cannon break in game 1 as opposed to his hydra control later on in game 1 and then in game 2 where he choked as he was dropped and movie was moving out bleh
Yeah, but Movie was at least as nervous as Shine was. It's both people's first Bo5. And Movie had to play against a good player on bad maps for him.
He clearly showed his PvZ is way stronger than Bisu/Stork's is.
How did he show that his PvZ is way stronger? Because he managed to beat Shine? Sure Movie has a very strong PvZ, but to draw the conclusion that he is way stronger at it than say Bisu who is 17-5 in his last 22 PvZ, a career winrate of 66.4% and on a 7 game winstreak vs Z is ignorant at best. While Bisu losing to Shine was bad, he did it during a time when Zergs was killing Protosses left and right and the tosses had yet found a good counter to the muta snipes.
Yes, because he managed to beat Shine. Maybe you forgot, but zergs still keep killing protosses left and right. Movie was/is just an exception. And no one says Bisu isnt a zerg destroyer IN THE OLD DAYS. People blamed Bisu/Stork's losses to the maps, guess what? Movie won on the exact same maps (in fact he won on the Z>>>>>P maps).
Bisu is generally a better player than Movie yes, better mechanics too. That's why he will also get better results. But in PvZ? It's been a long, long while since we had a "OMG Bisu!!!" moment in his PvZs. Movie is just playing better against zergs than Bisu is.
The way he played at key moments is pretty indicative that his nerves were getting to him =/ i.e. his hydra control during the cannon break in game 1 as opposed to his hydra control later on in game 1 and then in game 2 where he choked as he was dropped and movie was moving out bleh
Yeah, but Movie was at least as nervous as Shine was. It's both people's first Bo5. And Movie had to play against a good player on bad maps for him.
He clearly showed his PvZ is way stronger than Bisu/Stork's is.
How did he show that his PvZ is way stronger? Because he managed to beat Shine? Sure Movie has a very strong PvZ, but to draw the conclusion that he is way stronger at it than say Bisu who is 17-5 in his last 22 PvZ, a career winrate of 66.4% and on a 7 game winstreak vs Z is ignorant at best. While Bisu losing to Shine was bad, he did it during a time when Zergs was killing Protosses left and right and the tosses had yet found a good counter to the muta snipes.
Yes, because he managed to beat Shine. Maybe you forgot, but zergs still keep killing protosses left and right. Movie was/is just an exception. And no one says Bisu isnt a zerg destroyer IN THE OLD DAYS. People blamed Bisu/Stork's losses to the maps, guess what? Movie won on the exact same maps (in fact he won on the Z>>>>>P maps).
Bisu is generally a better player than Movie yes, better mechanics too. That's why he will also get better results. But in PvZ? It's been a long, long while since we had a "OMG Bisu!!!" moment in his PvZs. Movie is just playing better against zergs than Bisu is.
7-0 is still pretty damn good, even though shine and roro were the only really good players there
On January 08 2010 23:28 Kompicek wrote: His PvZ is topnotch but its impossible to clearly say its better than bisu and stork he was better prepared for shine, he had the advantage of playing him later on.. Shine cant win a straightup game with any of the mentioned players.
Lol he had the advantage of playing him later on ? What is this advantage actually ? Playing a Bo5 ? And sorry , but Shine only really commited to a semi-allin / cheese in the first game vs Movie he straight up beat Stork , Bisu and played the rest of the series against Movie beating him in him the third game ... Stop making excuses why Bisu or Stork lost . They played bad and thus they lost .
The way he played at key moments is pretty indicative that his nerves were getting to him =/ i.e. his hydra control during the cannon break in game 1 as opposed to his hydra control later on in game 1 and then in game 2 where he choked as he was dropped and movie was moving out bleh
Yeah, but Movie was at least as nervous as Shine was. It's both people's first Bo5. And Movie had to play against a good player on bad maps for him.
He clearly showed his PvZ is way stronger than Bisu/Stork's is.
How did he show that his PvZ is way stronger? Because he managed to beat Shine? Sure Movie has a very strong PvZ, but to draw the conclusion that he is way stronger at it than say Bisu who is 17-5 in his last 22 PvZ, a career winrate of 66.4% and on a 7 game winstreak vs Z is ignorant at best. While Bisu losing to Shine was bad, he did it during a time when Zergs was killing Protosses left and right and the tosses had yet found a good counter to the muta snipes.
Yes, because he managed to beat Shine. Maybe you forgot, but zergs still keep killing protosses left and right. Movie was/is just an exception. And no one says Bisu isnt a zerg destroyer IN THE OLD DAYS. People blamed Bisu/Stork's losses to the maps, guess what? Movie won on the exact same maps (in fact he won on the Z>>>>>P maps).
Bisu is generally a better player than Movie yes, better mechanics too. That's why he will also get better results. But in PvZ? It's been a long, long while since we had a "OMG Bisu!!!" moment in his PvZs. Movie is just playing better against zergs than Bisu is.
Lol just an exception? Unlike during the summer\autumn there are lots of people who wins PvZ. Hell Best is 6-4 in his last 10, so is Jangbi and even on a 6 game winstreak, Kal is 7-3 in his last 10, Bisu 8-2 and both Free and Stork at 5-5. There are lots of tosses who do good vs Zerg these days, unlike 3-6 months ago when ZvP was like around 70% Z favored over several months of time and even no name Zergs was taking down big tosses. Today however tosses are doing well vs Z all considered, since there always is a slight balance favor for Zerg regardless in the matchup.
In case you have not realized it yet, Shine is NOT a top ZvP player. Hes taken down 2 good tosses and done nothing else, look at his play today in game2,3,4 and tell me he is a top ZvP player...
Of course Movie got a strong PvZ and is playing kinda his own unique style and is probably a top3 PvZ player, but to rate him as the supreme best PvZer because he beats Shine just makes you look like an ignorant fool with no clue about what your talking about. PS. The maps are not Z>>>>>>>>>>>>>P, the only map that seems really Z favored is El Nino, but I got a feeling the stats for the map are rather skewed and its in fact not as bad PvZ as people think, and with a bigger sample size would even more out. Both Fighting and EOTS seems pretty balanced and the new HBR also seems to be pretty balanced, unlike the old version that favored Zerg. So while they favor Zerg, they are far from impossible to win on unlike say the map pool that was during Batoo (Chupung ROTK and TOTM all being terrible for PvZ).
Bisu only good in the old days? The guy is winning consistently as he has done most of his career and is looking solid as of lately and is on a 7 game winstreak (granted not vs the strongest opponents, tho it include your wonderboy Shine), and as I mentioned earlier is 17-5 in his last 22 PvZ, what more do you expect from him? To be Flash and win all 22? You are clueless if you think his PvZ is not top notch.
The way he played at key moments is pretty indicative that his nerves were getting to him =/ i.e. his hydra control during the cannon break in game 1 as opposed to his hydra control later on in game 1 and then in game 2 where he choked as he was dropped and movie was moving out bleh
Yeah, but Movie was at least as nervous as Shine was. It's both people's first Bo5. And Movie had to play against a good player on bad maps for him.
He clearly showed his PvZ is way stronger than Bisu/Stork's is.
How did he show that his PvZ is way stronger? Because he managed to beat Shine? Sure Movie has a very strong PvZ, but to draw the conclusion that he is way stronger at it than say Bisu who is 17-5 in his last 22 PvZ, a career winrate of 66.4% and on a 7 game winstreak vs Z is ignorant at best. While Bisu losing to Shine was bad, he did it during a time when Zergs was killing Protosses left and right and the tosses had yet found a good counter to the muta snipes.
Yes, because he managed to beat Shine. Maybe you forgot, but zergs still keep killing protosses left and right. Movie was/is just an exception. And no one says Bisu isnt a zerg destroyer IN THE OLD DAYS. People blamed Bisu/Stork's losses to the maps, guess what? Movie won on the exact same maps (in fact he won on the Z>>>>>P maps).
Bisu is generally a better player than Movie yes, better mechanics too. That's why he will also get better results. But in PvZ? It's been a long, long while since we had a "OMG Bisu!!!" moment in his PvZs. Movie is just playing better against zergs than Bisu is.
Lol just an exception? Unlike during the summer\autumn there are lots of people who wins PvZ. Hell Best is 6-4 in his last 10, so is Jangbi and even on a 6 game winstreak, Kal is 7-3 in his last 10, Bisu 8-2 and both Free and Stork at 5-5. There are lots of tosses who do good vs Zerg these days, unlike 3-6 months ago when ZvP was like around 70% Z favored over several months of time and even no name Zergs was taking down big tosses. Today however tosses are doing well vs Z all considered, since there always is a slight balance favor for Zerg regardless in the matchup.
In case you have not realized it yet, Shine is NOT a top ZvP player. Hes taken down 2 good tosses and done nothing else, look at his play today in game2,3,4 and tell me he is a top ZvP player...
Of course Movie got a strong PvZ and is playing kinda his own unique style and is probably a top3 PvZ player, but to rate him as the supreme best PvZer because he beats Shine just makes you look like an ignorant fool with no clue about what your talking about. PS. The maps are not Z>>>>>>>>>>>>>P, the only map that seems really Z favored is El Nino, but I got a feeling the stats for the map are rather skewed and its in fact not as bad PvZ as people think, and with a bigger sample size would even more out. Both Fighting and EOTS seems pretty balanced and the new HBR also seems to be pretty balanced, unlike the old version that favored Zerg. So while they favor Zerg, they are far from impossible to win on unlike say the map pool that was during Batoo (Chupung ROTK and TOTM all being terrible for PvZ).
Bisu only good in the old days? The guy is winning consistently as he has done most of his career and is looking solid as of lately and is on a 7 game winstreak (granted not vs the strongest opponents, tho it include your wonderboy Shine), and as I mentioned earlier is 17-5 in his last 22 PvZ, what more do you expect from him? To be Flash and win all 22? You are clueless if you think his PvZ is not top notch.
I believe that both Movies and Shines performances today were more influenced by the fact that it was their first Bo5 on a big stage rather than their strength in the specific matchup. Both made mistakes, but Movie played far better. And even with the mistakes he made, his PvZ looked rock solid. I also still believe that Shine is a really good ZvP player, he just choked under the pressure today.
but maybe in a few months time you can tell me to eat my words.
And saying that Bisu is not a PvZ beast anymore is ridiculous.
On January 09 2010 08:24 Malinor wrote: I believe that both Movies and Shines performances today were more influenced by the fact that it was their first Bo5 on a big stage rather than their strength in the specific matchup. Both made mistakes, but Movie played far better. And even with the mistakes he made, his PvZ looked rock solid. I also still believe that Shine is a really good ZvP player, he just choked under the pressure today.
but maybe in a few months time you can tell me to eat my words.
No, I can tell you to eat your words right now. WATCH HIS GAMES + Show Spoiler +
On January 09 2010 08:24 Malinor wrote: I believe that both Movies and Shines performances today were more influenced by the fact that it was their first Bo5 on a big stage rather than their strength in the specific matchup. Both made mistakes, but Movie played far better. And even with the mistakes he made, his PvZ looked rock solid. I also still believe that Shine is a really good ZvP player, he just choked under the pressure today.
but maybe in a few months time you can tell me to eat my words.
No, I can tell you to eat your words right now. WATCH HIS GAMES + Show Spoiler +
Oh please, Bisu's pvz crown is gone. Movie is the top dog now. He is by far the most dangerous Protoss in PvZ.
Movie's 2-base strong aggression is kicking 5-hatch hydra's ass. Don't forget he also beat Zero 2-0, who is a strong management zerg. So his style works well vs both aggressive and macro styles.
On January 10 2010 00:08 vnlegend wrote: Oh please, Bisu's pvz crown is gone. Movie is the top dog now. He is by far the most dangerous Protoss in PvZ.
Movie's 2-base strong aggression is kicking 5-hatch hydra's ass. Don't forget he also beat Zero 2-0, who is a strong management zerg. So his style works well vs both aggressive and macro styles.
..you're comparing Bisu's top 10 PvZ since FOREVER vs Movie's GOOD FOR THE LAST MONTH PvZ?
bisu's PvZ has been impressive since forever Movie's PvZ has been wow'ing TL for .. what. a month?
On January 10 2010 00:08 vnlegend wrote: Oh please, Bisu's pvz crown is gone. Movie is the top dog now. He is by far the most dangerous Protoss in PvZ.
Movie's 2-base strong aggression is kicking 5-hatch hydra's ass. Don't forget he also beat Zero 2-0, who is a strong management zerg. So his style works well vs both aggressive and macro styles.
..you're comparing Bisu's top 10 PvZ since FOREVER vs Movie's GOOD FOR THE LAST MONTH PvZ?
bisu's PvZ has been impressive since forever Movie's PvZ has been wow'ing TL for .. what. a month?
Bisu vs Movie Bo5 to settle once and for all who has the best PvZ!
On January 10 2010 06:11 yunicyarblejellythou wrote: Plexa your such a self-righteous, opinionated and poor writer with garbage logic. Definitely the worst on team liquid. Plexa YOU SUCK.
proof? wow lol, way to be hypocritical and not back up your own logic
On January 10 2010 06:11 yunicyarblejellythou wrote: Plexa your such a self-righteous, opinionated and poor writer with garbage logic. Definitely the worst on team liquid. Plexa YOU SUCK.
Jaedong is now holding the highest vP and vZ ELO peak, Flash has the highest vT and overall peak. Flash and Jaedong share #1 and #2 current ELO overall and in all matchups. That doesn't say anything about game quality, but it does say something about who the two dominating players are today. Just saying.
People don't question bisu's record or anything. He's obviously doing "alright," but his play itself is so distraught looking. He occasionally shows some old brilliance but he just seems so sloppy that it feels like a slump.
Who made this stupid power rank is very fucked up for life bisu ? wheres bisu movie down shine?omg u are crazy really this make me furious dudes is a page for progames and u only make wrong changes fuck the power rank ill make mine its ok flash but bisu lose some games and now u treat him ass shit come on guys
On January 12 2010 16:55 Roxor wrote: Who made this stupid power rank is very fucked up for life bisu ? wheres bisu movie down shine?omg u are crazy really this make me furious dudes is a page for progames and u only make wrong changes fuck the power rank ill make mine its ok flash but bisu lose some games and now u treat him ass shit come on guys
I thought that not knowing Korean would mean that I wouldn't be able to do any translating, but it turns out I was wrong! Enjoy:
The person who made this power rank is not quite right in the head. Why is Bisu not on the ranking this month? Movie being below Shine is also a rather ridiculous decision. I must say that I am rather irked at the incorrect placements of progamers, and that if I made a ranking it would be far superior to this one. It seems somewhat hypocritical that Flash is allowed to lose some games without being treated poorly, yet Bisu is so inelegantly mocked for his own mishaps. Pull it together, gentlemen!
On January 12 2010 16:55 Roxor wrote: Who made this stupid power rank is very fucked up for life bisu ? wheres bisu movie down shine?omg u are crazy really this make me furious dudes is a page for progames and u only make wrong changes fuck the power rank ill make mine its ok flash but bisu lose some games and now u treat him ass shit come on guys
lol.. I think people will take u more seriously if you construct your thoughts and sentences better. Whether you made any good points or not, no one's going to agree with your post.
On January 12 2010 16:55 Roxor wrote: Who made this stupid power rank is very fucked up for life bisu ? wheres bisu movie down shine?omg u are crazy really this make me furious dudes is a page for progames and u only make wrong changes fuck the power rank ill make mine its ok flash but bisu lose some games and now u treat him ass shit come on guys
I thought that not knowing Korean would mean that I wouldn't be able to do any translating, but it turns out I was wrong! Enjoy:
The person who made this power rank is not quite right in the head. Why is Bisu not on the ranking this month? Movie being below Shine is also a rather ridiculous decision. I must say that I am rather irked at the incorrect placements of progamers, and that if I made a ranking it would be far superior to this one. It seems somewhat hypocritical that Flash is allowed to lose some games without being treated poorly, yet Bisu is so inelegantly mocked for his own mishaps. Pull it together, gentlemen!
honestly, i couldn't pull myself together reading your translation. awesome!
On January 12 2010 16:55 Roxor wrote: Who made this stupid power rank is very fucked up for life bisu ? wheres bisu movie down shine?omg u are crazy really this make me furious dudes is a page for progames and u only make wrong changes fuck the power rank ill make mine its ok flash but bisu lose some games and now u treat him ass shit come on guys
I thought that not knowing Korean would mean that I wouldn't be able to do any translating, but it turns out I was wrong! Enjoy:
The person who made this power rank is not quite right in the head. Why is Bisu not on the ranking this month? Movie being below Shine is also a rather ridiculous decision. I must say that I am rather irked at the incorrect placements of progamers, and that if I made a ranking it would be far superior to this one. It seems somewhat hypocritical that Flash is allowed to lose some games without being treated poorly, yet Bisu is so inelegantly mocked for his own mishaps. Pull it together, gentlemen!
Yeah... I have to agree with the haters this time. Never seen such a bad powerrank in my life ^^ I guess someone doesn't like Bisu :p And sea, come on, he's just playing awful lately... Calm too low, shine too high, leta not in it, zero? come on... only agree with #1, but that's not hard
I agree with Plexa. No Bisu = Perfect power rank. The guy hasn't been showing ANY results in ANY leagues as of late. How can you put someone who doesn't achieve anything in leagues or any real dominating PL results on the PR?
On January 12 2010 22:16 Roffles wrote: I agree with Plexa. No Bisu = Perfect power rank. The guy hasn't been showing ANY results in ANY leagues as of late. How can you put someone who doesn't achieve anything in leagues or any real dominating PL results on the PR?
I don`t think most people have a problem with him being off the PR since he had a few rough months, but to say his not dominating PL is a straight up lie, hes 14-4 with Flash as the only player with 10+ games with a better winrate (maybe someone has better that I did not check, but I checked most of the PL players who regularly wins like Sea, Violet, Jaedong etc). The only points to be made against him in PL is that he have not played that many very good players and he have played less games than a lot of the other PL monsters, but that is not really his fault since SKT have rarely been in Ace matches this season and hes not the sole Ace + hes missed out on games due to being sent out in the 4th set.
On January 12 2010 22:16 Roffles wrote: I agree with Plexa. No Bisu = Perfect power rank. The guy hasn't been showing ANY results in ANY leagues as of late. How can you put someone who doesn't achieve anything in leagues or any real dominating PL results on the PR?
I don`t think most people have a problem with him being off the PR since he had a few rough months, but to say his not dominating PL is a straight up lie, hes 14-4 with Flash as the only player with 10+ games with a better winrate (maybe someone has better that I did not check, but I checked most of the PL players who regularly wins like Sea, Violet, Jaedong etc). The only points to be made against him in PL is that he have not played that many very good players and he have played less games than a lot of the other PL monsters, but that is not really his fault since SKT have rarely been in Ace matches this season and hes not the sole Ace + hes missed out on games due to being sent out in the 4th set.
You're right, Bisu's win rate is second only to Flash's, among players who have played more than 2 games. That's right, if you've played more than 2 proleague games (*cough*Tempest 2-0), your win rate is worse than Bisu's 14-4 and Flash's 20-3.
In short: yes, Bisu is dominating proleague just as he should.
When Flash wins against Movie in OSL, Jaedong in MSL and Hero in proleague, I expect to see him in top 3 slots for next month's powerrank AND a bonjwa status sticker.
On January 15 2010 00:44 o[twist] wrote: flash's bonjwa status will reasonably depend on his performance in the NEXT round of starleagues, not this round
Nope, being a Bonjwa is simply an unmistakable feeling of superiority. There's just no argument in your mind that that player is better than all of your favorites. Most bonjwas were recognized maybe 2 seasons into their berth (Like how Oov, Nada and Savior all three won a couple of MSLs before everyone just realized that there's no competing with them), but, let's be honest, none of the bonjwas double won the starleagues before people thought they were bonjwas -- Nada only did it after his back to back MSL win where everyone knew he was easily the best.
If Flash is gonna break every other record, maybe he can break the perception that being a bonjwa requires a prolonged experience.
I mean, think about it, if it were about performance over a couple of seasons, Jaedong won back to back OSLs in boxer like fashion, while simultaneously carrying his team and performing fairly well in MSL (losing in group stages once and the Ro4 once, very respectable showings given the workload), but few are readily willing to admit he's bonjwa because his crazy performance left a feeling of want.
I'm not sure anyone thinks Flash is leaving anything to want. He's somehow got 2 matches over a 70% winrate right now and, frankly, his losses are all so pathetically miniscule to his wins that it's like when Savior would drop proleague games -- you know it doesn't mean anything.
Exactly--Flash's loses recently have almost without exception been against top players in series that he won anyway. His PL loss to Really was the one "significant" loss in recent memory I can recall.
He hasn't been bested, like Jaedong was by Fantasy in PL grand finals or Calm in the MSL semi-finals. We'll see what happens over the next few weeks
Let's not count our chickens before they hatch. Flash may be in both finals, but he hasn't won either of them yet.
And I figured I'd just throw it out again - isn't it kind of a pointless argument anyway? It's not like the foreign community on TL takes a vote to determine if Flash is bonjwa, that's for the Koreans to decide...
I find it interesting that if we take Flash out of the equation, JD above Stork would probably be pretty uncontroversial. Minus his Bo3 vs Flash, JD lost only one game in December. On top of that, he would've been a heavy favorite against pretty much any Terran in a Bo5, including Sea. His ZvT still wouldn't look as ferocious as it once did, but it would be hard to pick on him too much for that if there weren't any Terrans strong enough to convincingly defeat him in a Bo5. Additionally, without his win over Flash, there would be much less reason to have confidence in Stork's PvT, just because he didn't really play much PvT. JD's ZvP, in contrast, would look no less ferocious, and in a head to head Stork would definitely be the underdog.
On the other hand, Flash physically ascending into the heavens to take his place among the gods would make some of Plexa's other decisions look more reasonable. Most likely there wouldn't be nearly as many people complaining about Calm's placement without his series against Flash. Sea's placement would also seem slightly less controversial, for as Plexa pointed out, his TvT would have been the one to beat. I'm not sure how it would affect Zero.
On January 15 2010 08:46 conTAgi0n wrote: I find it interesting that if we take Flash out of the equation, JD above Stork would probably be pretty uncontroversial. Minus his Bo3 vs Flash, JD lost only one game in December. On top of that, he would've been a heavy favorite against pretty much any Terran in a Bo5, including Sea. His ZvT still wouldn't look as ferocious as it once did, but it would be hard to pick on him too much for that if there weren't any Terrans strong enough to convincingly defeat him in a Bo5. Additionally, without his win over Flash, there would be much less reason to have confidence in Stork's PvT, just because he didn't really play much PvT. JD's ZvP, in contrast, would look no less ferocious, and in a head to head Stork would definitely be the underdog.
On the other hand, Flash physically ascending into the heavens to take his place among the gods would make some of Plexa's other decisions look more reasonable. Most likely there wouldn't be nearly as many people complaining about Calm's placement without his series against Flash. Sea's placement would also seem slightly less controversial, for as Plexa pointed out, his TvT would have been the one to beat. I'm not sure how it would affect Zero.
I agree with that. thopol wrote in his Kal vs Jaedong hype-thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=109964):
Jaedong's play has not declined substantially since his super-human spring and summer season, but Flash is simply playing better.
And that's basically it. He is playing good in PL (4-0 in Ace matches, decent record overall) 3-0ed his OSL-group, 2-0ed his MSL-group, 2-0ed Firefist and 3-0ed Stats. Not the hardest competition overall, but he simply hasn't lost an important game with the exception of the series against Flash.
If it wasn't for Flashs brilliance, noone would doubt JD.
On January 15 2010 12:36 WWJDD wrote: Flash has peaked. He'll lose one or both leagues.
no way. either he'll play jaedong and movie or kal and movie. both possibilities include movie. whos PvT is still below 50%. movie's PvT isn't horrible, but its not something you'd expect someone who's in the OSL finals to have. jaedong and kal are decent contenders against flash, yes, but flash is still the favorite above both of them. we're just watching to find out how well flash will prepare for his games.
On January 14 2010 22:45 ghostWriter wrote: When Flash wins against Movie in OSL, Jaedong in MSL and Hero in proleague, I expect to see him in top 3 slots for next month's powerrank AND a bonjwa status sticker.
well Flash is a favorite against Movie, Hero's ZvT sucks, AND Hero + Jaedong are Zergs and Flash is a Terran.
I think its okay to assume there is a big chance this might happen. But even then, bonjwa status sticker should not go to Flash just for beating a mediocore Toss and playing 2 imba matchups
that's a bit dismissive and disrespective towards Jaedong and his ZvT don't you think?
I personally think winning OSL and MSL require a lot of luck.. eg, luck boxing opponents who's race is your best matchup.
Flash's best matchup is TvT. I'd like to point out that flash's runs in both the MSL and OSL have been against non-terran opponents. He did not face ONE, at all.
if he's to win both, it won't be because he got lucky that he faced "mediocre" toss, or cos he played imba matchups.. its cos he actually earned it.
On January 14 2010 22:45 ghostWriter wrote: When Flash wins against Movie in OSL, Jaedong in MSL and Hero in proleague, I expect to see him in top 3 slots for next month's powerrank AND a bonjwa status sticker.
well Flash is a favorite against Movie, Hero's ZvT sucks, AND Hero + Jaedong are Zergs and Flash is a Terran.
I think its okay to assume there is a big chance this might happen. But even then, bonjwa status sticker should not go to Flash just for beating a mediocore Toss and playing 2 imba matchups
AzureEye you are up there with Nigol as the worst poster in TL
I'm worrying about flash coz he said he can't get enough sleep nowadays :/
Well since there are so much more games played today and the domination shown by flash is bigger than anyone else in history right now its just about right. People are too much like "ah the good old days" and then making up things like the bonjwas never lost.. Even the bonjwas of old didn't have records like flash.
Also AzureEye, if flash is not allowed to get credit for beating protosses and zergs, we can only credit him for beating terran? Well then it's settled.
For me a bonjwa is someone who almost always wins, no matter the opponent. When people get seriously suprised when a player actually loses a game, he has that status to me. Dominating for years with the competition of today is alot harder than before, so you can't really compare the bonjwas from old and today.
There is boxer, oov, savior and nada, the old bonjwas.
then there is jaedong, flash and bisu. They're just called "the best players". they've all been on top of their race since forever. to me they're bonjwas too :/
On January 15 2010 18:17 StylishVODs wrote: I'm worrying about flash coz he said he can't get enough sleep nowadays :/
Well since there are so much more games played today and the domination shown by flash is bigger than anyone else in history right now its just about right. People are too much like "ah the good old days" and then making up things like the bonjwas never lost.. Even the bonjwas of old didn't have records like flash.
Also AzureEye, if flash is not allowed to get credit for beating protosses and zergs, we can only credit him for beating terran? Well then it's settled.
When did I say Flash didn't deserve credit for beating a Protoss? I just said Movie's PvT is not good, mediocre at best and its expected that Flash will overwhelm him.
Learn to read
EDIT: @Tyxiquale Yes if he wins those matches, he definately deserves his win. But that doesn't justify him getting the bonjwa status
AzureEye, you specifically said "bonjwa status sticker should not go to Flash just for beating a mediocore Toss and playing 2 imba matchups".
First im going to ignore the "imba" part.
No it shouldn't go to him for beating a mediocre toss. If bonjwa status was given out for everyone who beat a medicre toss everyone would be bonjwa. He just beat Best 3-0 to get where he is.
If it goes to him it's because he plays like a god and dominates everyone.
Ignore the guy, he's just fishing for attention. I don't think he even sees the irony in that he complains more about Terran players complaining about Protoss than Terran players actually complain about Protoss. Probably even including IdrA. He also whines more about TvZ than I've ever seen anyone whine about PvT.
On January 14 2010 22:45 ghostWriter wrote: When Flash wins against Movie in OSL, Jaedong in MSL and Hero in proleague, I expect to see him in top 3 slots for next month's powerrank AND a bonjwa status sticker.
well Flash is a favorite against Movie, Hero's ZvT sucks, AND Hero + Jaedong are Zergs and Flash is a Terran.
I think its okay to assume there is a big chance this might happen. But even then, bonjwa status sticker should not go to Flash just for beating a mediocore Toss and playing 2 imba matchups
On January 16 2010 03:37 StylishVODs wrote: AzureEye, you specifically said "bonjwa status sticker should not go to Flash just for beating a mediocore Toss and playing 2 imba matchups".
First im going to ignore the "imba" part.
No it shouldn't go to him for beating a mediocre toss. If bonjwa status was given out for everyone who beat a medicre toss everyone would be bonjwa. He just beat Best 3-0 to get where he is.
If it goes to him it's because he plays like a god and dominates everyone.
I admit that Best is a very good PvT player and Flash deserves all the credit he gets from beating him. The guy I quoted specifically mentioned beating Movie as one of the achievements that leads to bonjwa status and I disagreed with that, seeing how Movie is not a good PvT player. I didn't know you included Best and the other good players Flash had beaten recently as part of the argument, but I guess that is a given that I forgot to think about
On January 16 2010 03:51 Hinanawi wrote: Ignore the guy, he's just fishing for attention. I don't think he even sees the irony in that he complains more about Terran players complaining about Protoss than Terran players actually complain about Protoss. Probably even including IdrA. He also whines more about TvZ than I've ever seen anyone whine about PvT.
I know you're still bitter than I refute your idiotic claims about TvP being imba but now you resort to comparing the quantity of the posts I make? lol pathetic
On January 14 2010 22:45 ghostWriter wrote: When Flash wins against Movie in OSL, Jaedong in MSL and Hero in proleague, I expect to see him in top 3 slots for next month's powerrank AND a bonjwa status sticker.
well Flash is a favorite against Movie, Hero's ZvT sucks, AND Hero + Jaedong are Zergs and Flash is a Terran.
I think its okay to assume there is a big chance this might happen. But even then, bonjwa status sticker should not go to Flash just for beating a mediocore Toss and playing 2 imba matchups
God you are so stupid it hurts me.
oh yeah? care to explain? I'm just reluctant to label any player with the B word in this age of sc
On January 16 2010 03:51 Hinanawi wrote: Ignore the guy, he's just fishing for attention. I don't think he even sees the irony in that he complains more about Terran players complaining about Protoss than Terran players actually complain about Protoss. Probably even including IdrA. He also whines more about TvZ than I've ever seen anyone whine about PvT.
I know you're still bitter than I refute your idiotic claims about TvP being imba but now you resort to comparing the quantity of the posts I make? lol pathetic
You did no such thing. I gathered up all the stats for this season to show you that your 'T >>> Z > P = T' nonsense was not true this season, and you proceeded to claim that statistics don't matter unless you include stats from 6-7 years ago back when Starcraft was a radically different game.
If anyone here wants to check for themselves, they can follow the link in this guy's signature to his whiny TvP blog and decide for themselves, but I'm done wasting effort.
On January 16 2010 03:51 Hinanawi wrote: Ignore the guy, he's just fishing for attention. I don't think he even sees the irony in that he complains more about Terran players complaining about Protoss than Terran players actually complain about Protoss. Probably even including IdrA. He also whines more about TvZ than I've ever seen anyone whine about PvT.
I know you're still bitter than I refute your idiotic claims about TvP being imba but now you resort to comparing the quantity of the posts I make? lol pathetic
You did no such thing. I gathered up all the stats for this season to show you that your 'T >>> Z > P = T' nonsense was not true this season, and you proceeded to claim that statistics don't matter unless you include stats from 6-7 years ago back when Starcraft was a radically different game.
If anyone here wants to check for themselves, they can follow the link in this guy's signature to his whiny TvP blog and decide for themselves, but I'm done wasting effort.
I did check it (unfortunately). The guy has some serious issue. I lol very hard each time when he starts using statistics from 10 years ago He's been ridiculed, called stupid or idiot, so many time (also by people who have much better knowledge than him) and yet he continues...
AzureEye is actually Flash trolling. When he's got everybody on TL disagreeing with him and calling him stupid, he will unveil his true identity and simultaneously release a replay pack of his new TvP management style. Then he will be made moderator of the PR thread and he'll get to ban people who think he's wrong, and his icon will be the goliath range upgrade.
And lebesgue and hinanawi and everyone else will be all O.o ITS FLASH OTL OTL OTL
Also I think Movie might be a more difficult opponent then Jaedong. Calm, Movie, and Kwanro are all good players and they only managed to get one win against Flash.
even if jaedong beats flash 3-0 flash should be first. He's in two finals at once, and keeps a steady ELO around 2400... you realize how often this happens?
also flash had to prepare for 2 finals when jaedong prepares for one, those things can matter, Not discrediting jaedong though, he's an absulute monster, but this month must go to flash for obvious reasons.
What I meant is if Jaedong totally outplay Flash he will have legitimate shot at no1 position in the next PR.
Otherwise Flash shouldn't be penalized for the losing to Jaedong after ridiculously hard schedule and destroying opponents left and right. Obviously it must be really hard to mobilize to practice for MSL final after just winning OSL final.
Doesn't matter. Flash will win the MSL and spend next season confirming that he's the second coming of Oov by dominating winner's league and getting a golden mouse.
What's most impressive is that Flash won OSL and is in MSL finals without playing a single game of his best matchup. Check for yourself, he didn't play one game against Terran.
Maybe if JD like really, really stomps him hard 3-0 then he might get #2, but come on, that's just not going to happen.
On January 18 2010 06:36 Hinanawi wrote: What's most impressive is that Flash won OSL and is in MSL finals without playing a single game of his best matchup. Check for yourself, he didn't play one game against Terran.
Maybe if JD like really, really stomps him hard 3-0 then he might get #2, but come on, that's just not going to happen.
Flash has always said that he was most confident in his TvZ
flash is good at all matchups. even when ppl were saying his v P is weak, it was still hovering at 66%+ that my friend isnt a weak matchup, it is sickness at its core.
it doesnt matter who flash plays, he will win as long as he is inform. only person who i would give a whisker of a hope for against flash in Bo5 is stork or jaedong.
bisu wouldn't last 5 minutes aggainst this ultimate weapon.
Also I think Movie might be a more difficult opponent then Jaedong. Calm, Movie, and Kwanro are all good players and they only managed to get one win against Flash.
Jaedong will put up more of a fight than did Movie. You can count on that.
On January 18 2010 06:36 Hinanawi wrote: What's most impressive is that Flash won OSL and is in MSL finals without playing a single game of his best matchup. Check for yourself, he didn't play one game against Terran.
Maybe if JD like really, really stomps him hard 3-0 then he might get #2, but come on, that's just not going to happen.
Flash has always said that he was most confident in his TvZ
And he enjoys it the most. I think we will have an epic final. I'm just afraid that Flash may be burned out after playing constantly bo5 in MSL and OSL. It takes a toll to be practicing constantly for big games. Shitloads of stress. One can't understand it unless works in a very stressful environment himself.
After MSL final Flash deserves a goddamn break but probably he won't get one...
Also I think Movie might be a more difficult opponent then Jaedong. Calm, Movie, and Kwanro are all good players and they only managed to get one win against Flash.
Jaedong will put up more of a fight than did Movie. You can count on that.
Of course he will. he's going to win and when he does I can not wait to see all the topics that will sprout up
On January 18 2010 06:36 Hinanawi wrote: What's most impressive is that Flash won OSL and is in MSL finals without playing a single game of his best matchup. Check for yourself, he didn't play one game against Terran.
Maybe if JD like really, really stomps him hard 3-0 then he might get #2, but come on, that's just not going to happen.
Flash has always said that he was most confident in his TvZ
And he enjoys it the most. I think we will have an epic final. I'm just afraid that Flash may be burned out after playing constantly bo5 in MSL and OSL. It takes a toll to be practicing constantly for big games. Shitloads of stress. One can't understand it unless works in a very stressful environment himself.
After MSL final Flash deserves a goddamn break but probably he won't get one...
Yeah he should take a break, but i think since he's actually winning in the starleagues now it's not as hard mentally for him to play as much as he does and he'll be able to do it. He's happy now as opposed to depressed.
On January 18 2010 04:00 StylishVODs wrote: even if jaedong beats flash 3-0 flash should be first. He's in two finals at once, and keeps a steady ELO around 2400... you realize how often this happens?
also flash had to prepare for 2 finals when jaedong prepares for one, those things can matter, Not discrediting jaedong though, he's an absulute monster, but this month must go to flash for obvious reasons.
Flash is only getting one less day of pratice than JD since the OSL finals was the day after the MSL semis.
Either way, the top 2 on the list have to be Flash and Jaedong, regardless of order, otherwise there will be riots.
On January 18 2010 04:00 StylishVODs wrote: even if jaedong beats flash 3-0 flash should be first. He's in two finals at once, and keeps a steady ELO around 2400... you realize how often this happens?
also flash had to prepare for 2 finals when jaedong prepares for one, those things can matter, Not discrediting jaedong though, he's an absulute monster, but this month must go to flash for obvious reasons.
Flash is only getting one less day of pratice than JD since the OSL finals was the day after the MSL semis.
Either way, the top 2 on the list have to be Flash and Jaedong, regardless of order, otherwise there will be riots.
Except Flash will play Hero on Neo Moon Glave in ~17 hours, while Jaedong has the week off for proleague.
On January 18 2010 04:00 StylishVODs wrote: even if jaedong beats flash 3-0 flash should be first. He's in two finals at once, and keeps a steady ELO around 2400... you realize how often this happens?
also flash had to prepare for 2 finals when jaedong prepares for one, those things can matter, Not discrediting jaedong though, he's an absulute monster, but this month must go to flash for obvious reasons.
Flash is only getting one less day of pratice than JD since the OSL finals was the day after the MSL semis.
Either way, the top 2 on the list have to be Flash and Jaedong, regardless of order, otherwise there will be riots.
Don't you think that Flash has a bit busier schedule? It is not just about time to practice but how much stress and work you have. OSL final was a stressful event. He put all heart into winning it but even though he won he probably feels at least a bit worn down. So no, Flash is handicapped going into that final against Jaedong by much more than just 1 day of practice.
Why are we still talking about Flash and Jaedong? 1 and 2, booooring.
What's interesting is to see where Movie ends up in next month's PR. He played damn well against Flash, taking game three straight-up even, something that Best could not do. His builds were creative and he had the advantage in every one of the first three games. Even though he made the really bone-headed mistake in the series of throwing his army and the game into supply depots on HBR he didn't let the momentum just roll through him and gave us a damn good showing in sets two and three.
He has some spunk, we definitely haven't heard the last of him.
On January 18 2010 04:00 StylishVODs wrote: even if jaedong beats flash 3-0 flash should be first. He's in two finals at once, and keeps a steady ELO around 2400... you realize how often this happens?
also flash had to prepare for 2 finals when jaedong prepares for one, those things can matter, Not discrediting jaedong though, he's an absulute monster, but this month must go to flash for obvious reasons.
Flash is only getting one less day of pratice than JD since the OSL finals was the day after the MSL semis.
Either way, the top 2 on the list have to be Flash and Jaedong, regardless of order, otherwise there will be riots.
Flash wants to make sure he has the most wins in proleague on top of winning MSL, so he's playing vs STX tonight to get 21 wins (1 more than Zero. Flash is 20-3 and Zero is 20-10) vs by.Hero if he can.
It'd be cool if Flash ended the season #1 in every league. You know, cool for a Flash fan. 8)
On January 18 2010 04:00 StylishVODs wrote: even if jaedong beats flash 3-0 flash should be first. He's in two finals at once, and keeps a steady ELO around 2400... you realize how often this happens?
also flash had to prepare for 2 finals when jaedong prepares for one, those things can matter, Not discrediting jaedong though, he's an absulute monster, but this month must go to flash for obvious reasons.
Flash is only getting one less day of pratice than JD since the OSL finals was the day after the MSL semis.
Either way, the top 2 on the list have to be Flash and Jaedong, regardless of order, otherwise there will be riots.
Flash wants to make sure he has the most wins in proleague on top of winning MSL, so he's playing vs STX tonight to get 21 wins (1 more than Zero. Flash is 20-3 and Zero is 20-10) vs by.Hero if he can.
It'd be cool if Flash ended the season #1 in every league. You know, cool for a Flash fan. 8)
I think the MSL finals are 50-50; Flash is nuts right now, but he has angered Jaedong, who is the god of Bo5's. Also Jaedong is pretty serious about the MSL --- he's undefeated so far (yep, 10-0 in MSL).
This could be another Arena MSL finals*, but it could also go the way of GSL1. The truly exciting thing about Flash-Jaedong matches is that they can be long and epic, but it can also be one-sided domination either way, so fans literally have no idea what to expect.
This Bo5 could very possibly be "nasty, brutish, and quick".
*I know that was ForGG; just pointing out that both Flash and Jaedong can lose massively even in a Bo5.
On January 19 2010 05:45 Djabanete wrote: I think the MSL finals are 50-50; Flash is nuts right now, but he has angered Jaedong, who is the god of Bo5's. Also Jaedong is pretty serious about the MSL --- he's undefeated so far (yep, 10-0 in MSL).
This could be another Arena MSL finals*, but it could also go the way of GSL1. The truly exciting thing about Flash-Jaedong matches is that they can be long and epic, but it can also be one-sided domination either way, so fans literally have no idea what to expect.
This Bo5 could very possibly be "nasty, brutish, and quick".
*I know that was ForGG; just pointing out that both Flash and Jaedong can lose massively even in a Bo5.
On January 19 2010 05:45 Djabanete wrote: I think the MSL finals are 50-50; Flash is nuts right now, but he has angered Jaedong, who is the god of Bo5's. Also Jaedong is pretty serious about the MSL --- he's undefeated so far (yep, 10-0 in MSL).
This could be another Arena MSL finals*, but it could also go the way of GSL1. The truly exciting thing about Flash-Jaedong matches is that they can be long and epic, but it can also be one-sided domination either way, so fans literally have no idea what to expect.
This Bo5 could very possibly be "nasty, brutish, and quick".
*I know that was ForGG; just pointing out that both Flash and Jaedong can lose massively even in a Bo5.
On January 18 2010 04:00 StylishVODs wrote: even if jaedong beats flash 3-0 flash should be first. He's in two finals at once, and keeps a steady ELO around 2400... you realize how often this happens?
also flash had to prepare for 2 finals when jaedong prepares for one, those things can matter, Not discrediting jaedong though, he's an absulute monster, but this month must go to flash for obvious reasons.
I agree with this . I wonder thought if Flash will surpass Jaedong in kespa rank even if Jaedong manages to win the MSL ?
So; Flash is BY FAR the best player in Proleague, has won the OSL in a very convincing fashion, simultaneously reached the final in MSL and is constantly hovering around the recordbreaking 2400 in ELO. I personally think that Flash, no matter what happens in the MSL, deserves to keep his spot next month.
On January 18 2010 04:00 StylishVODs wrote: even if jaedong beats flash 3-0 flash should be first. He's in two finals at once, and keeps a steady ELO around 2400... you realize how often this happens?
also flash had to prepare for 2 finals when jaedong prepares for one, those things can matter, Not discrediting jaedong though, he's an absulute monster, but this month must go to flash for obvious reasons.
I agree with this . I wonder thought if Flash will surpass Jaedong in kespa rank even if Jaedong manages to win the MSL ?
He will. Flash's 2-0 over Jaedong was already ranked and if Jaedong wins the MSL over the #2 Kespa, he'll gain a lot more points than Flash's Overall OSL run.
That said, Flash has also defeated better players, Kespawise, for his MSL run in Best and Kwanro (2-0 and 3-1 after the last kespa rank). Combine that with a PL performance that has competely shadowed everyone else and, well, I think it'll be close if Jaedong wins but he'll definitely be ahead. If Flash wins he'll easily break 3500 Kespa.
On January 19 2010 20:51 Holgerius wrote: So; Flash is BY FAR the best player in Proleague, has won the OSL in a very convincing fashion, simultaneously reached the final in MSL and is constantly hovering around the recordbreaking 2400 in ELO. I personally think that Flash, no matter what happens in the MSL, deserves to keep his spot next month.
Good summary. 22-3 in proleague over two rounds, team in first place, winning one title and making the finals of the other... This is totally nuts.
I just can't wait to see Flash in the winner's league.
I just realized that I have absolutely no preference in the Flash/Jaedong match. If Flash wins, he's a fucking beast. If Jaedong wins, he's a fucking beast. Both of them are awesome. I'm looking forward to this match so much :D
On January 20 2010 19:52 DanielZKlein wrote: Very good call about Bisu not making the Power Rank this time aruond. That game against Hogil? Disgraceful. O how are the mighty fallen.
July and Nada have fallen. Bisu has won 7 of his last 10, several being PvZ.
On January 20 2010 19:52 DanielZKlein wrote: Very good call about Bisu not making the Power Rank this time aruond. That game against Hogil? Disgraceful. O how are the mighty fallen.
July and Nada have fallen. Bisu has won 7 of his last 10, several being PvZ.
Uh July has not fallen . He forced iloveoov to give him piggybacks several times by owning him in a Bo3 while playing in the back of a pickup truck in a warehouse... Him and iloveoov deserve a spot in the PR . I mean who else will be able to lift up July on his back while squatting ?
On January 20 2010 19:52 DanielZKlein wrote: Very good call about Bisu not making the Power Rank this time aruond. That game against Hogil? Disgraceful. O how are the mighty fallen.
HoGiL is one of the best ZvP players around. There is really no shame in losing to HoGiL.
Statistically ZvP hasn't been too bad lately, but I get what TTT is saying. So many Zergs have been going on monster ZvP streaks this season...ZerO had a 9 streak, EffOrt was beasting in it with an 11-game streak, Calm is 10-2 in it this season, Jaedong is on a 16 game ZvP streak, etc. etc.
The stats were posted a while back though, and ZvP actually hasn't been any more imba than PvT / TvZ this season. Just a lot of exceptional Zergs. It's balanced by the fact that Zergs have to deal with Flash imba <3
On January 21 2010 12:00 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Hyuk isn't really good at ZvP. HoGiL is way better than HoeJJa. I'd say he's doing better than Calm, Zero, and Effort right now.
On January 21 2010 08:50 DoctorHelvetica wrote: No, HoGiL really is at the top of ZvP.
Jaedong Zero Calm Effort
for non pvz snipers who it's "okay" to lose to in PvZ, followed by snipers like
Hero Hoejja Hogil Hyuk (well he's more of a zvz sniper and has returned to his old ways but people seemed really impressed)
AND THEY ALL START WITH H
What the hell? Hyuk and Hoejja are NOT OK to lose vs, both are mediocre at ZvP (tho Hoejja do show some creative play, and had a nice lategame vs Kal, but beside that its not much redeeming about his ZvP when he cant linghop on Destination, watch his piss poor reaction timings vs flying for example)
Also its not like Hogil just became good at ZvP, he was raping people almost a year ago in winners league also (when Zergs was dying left and right vs the 4gate zeal/archon build) and he did it by simply outplaying his toss opponents. He was even opening with his 3rd hatch at his natural several games when everyone else was doing the 3base 5hatch hydra build and still he just outplayed his opponents in the mid\late game. He most certain belongs to your other group of Zergs and I would probably rank him slightly above Calm and ZerO. (Tho these I guess are more of a personal preference and can be argued for both ways, but you cant argue against Hogils result or stellar game play) Hopefully Winners league will once again bring him ZvPs so we can see him play more of it, since he really have not played that many.
THEIR NAMES START WITH H AND MOST OF THEM WERE/ARE USED AS ZVP SNIPERS
FUNNY COINCIDENCE
CAPS LOCK
that aside rofl at ranking him with Calm and Effort. MAAAAYBE ZvP but the guy is the absolute definition of a sniper given that he has some of the most abysmal ZvT and ZvZ ever. (Though he had one good series vs Mind I think).
On January 21 2010 12:33 TwoToneTerran wrote: IT WAS A JOKE
THEIR NAMES START WITH H AND MOST OF THEM WERE/ARE USED AS ZVP SNIPERS
FUNNY COINCIDENCE
CAPS LOCK
that aside rofl at ranking him with Calm and Effort. MAAAAYBE ZvP but the guy is the absolute definition of a sniper given that he has some of the most abysmal ZvT and ZvZ ever. (Though he had one good series vs Mind I think).
It was obviously for ZvP only, noone have talked about his other matchups or overall skills.
Also its kind of hard to get your jokes when you wrote stuff like this totally seriously recently and included lots of the same players.
On December 30 2009 13:47 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong and Effort are still miles ahead of him, and honestly I'd be skeptical to call him better than Calm, By.Hero and Zero.
How dare I have a consistent opinion about players who mostly weren't included in my H based joke.
ps: if you didn't notice I posted long before your post telling Doctor H it was a joke (YES 3 MINUTES IS A LONG TIME. ESPECIALLY IN STARCRAFT TIME). Then you posted and got all indignant when I said it was a joke for the second time.
Love your non stop ninja editing to save face. Just give it a rest man, we are fine with you having your own opinions, never have anyone said you can`t be allowed to have them. We have only given arguments why we think you are wrong to which you respond by going into mass edit mode and attempts at attacking us for not "getting" your jokes.
Oystein, I really respect you as a player but you have this knack to take things way too seriously and get on these really insulting tangents (I'm "attacking" people? Really? This was all grounded in a really lame joke) and weeeeird accusations about how I use the edit button (not really to...mass edit attack people? So much as to add in an after thought or, you know, correct myself), and it's all really obtuse. If it's all good with you I'd like to call it quits here because almost everytime you get in an exchange with me (which is exclusive to the PR threads, pretty much), you get really hostile and, honestly, despite my angry looking jokes (like the CJ one earlier in this thread!), forums aren't really the place to get spitefully abrasive.
I'm not attacking anyone. You just missed my first post explaining it was a joke (which was jovial! There's no bad intent towards DoctorH about that as it was a bit of a stretch), and then when I caps lock (hint caps lock isn't serious) a second explanation that it's a joke you get all angry and start quoting posts from other threads that...prove I have a consistent opinion, whatevs.
And now you're just ad homineming at me by somehow saying that using the edit feature means I'm saving face and I'm 'mass editing' (seriously does this even make sense) to attack people when I'm not. I'm not sure what stick is up your ass with me but everytime you address me (which is almost exclusively in the PR, actually) it's passive aggressive and hateful. I respect you a lot as a player but you're really condescending and, despite my wacky, and sometimes abrasive manner I'd be really keen if you'd be a little less hostile.
btw: most of my edits are because I have second thoughts. I actually consider that what I say might be going too far and decide to tone it down. Or other times I have something extra I thought of after the fact and want to add it. The edit feature is a really nice forum tool that isn't relegated to "attacking" people.
Sigh....
Where did I get angry when you wrote in caps lock? I only commented on the fact that you where starting to argue that Hogil is not a top Zerg overall, which no one in the thread had suggested and corrected that we had only been speaking about his ZvP.
Then I quote you from an old thread where you are obviously not joking, and show how similar the posts are to show you why people like me did not catch your joke (and obviously DrHelvetica did not catch it either since he decided to answer you seriously). Here you totally missed the point of my post and say it proves you have consistent opinions, OK fine, but how does that help us deduct when you are joking and when you are serious when you are writing in the almost the same manner? So tell me when was I angry in this post?
You think I would bring up your edits if I did not know what you had written in them before you edited them? You edited out several posts you made where you were clearly hostile, like bashing on me for not seeing that you had typed it was a joke (then you realize I was obviously typing my post while you made yours and you try to look funny by making the 3min comment in caps). You also edited out harsh comments on "how you dare to question someone with less than 30 televised games" which was also written in a hostile manner trying to make us look bad for not respecting your opinion about Hogils ZvP. To which I responded you are free to have your own opinions, but don`t get angry because we argue against them.
I dont know, maybe I am a little hostile in general when posting in the PR threads and I should improve that and speak in a more mannered way. Its just that I get easily annoyed when people are making awful uneducated posts about this game, and I try to correct them.
i agree flash should be #1 but if jaedong can take down the best TvZ evar and get to a 16-win ZvP streak he's gotta look like a very close second. that said i expect flash to win
Leta has turned into FBH 2.0. Mediocre in leagues, Great TvT, Good TvZ, and 3-7 in his last 10 TvPs. rofl.
That said, he's been doing very well in PL and is 9-1 in his last 10, with some pretty solid gameplay in his 2 cinch match ups. I wouldn't object to a low spot since the leagues have been cleared out for the most part now.
On January 22 2010 04:53 TwoToneTerran wrote: Leta has turned into FBH 2.0. Mediocre in leagues, Great TvT, Good TvZ, and 3-7 in his last 10 TvPs. rofl.
That said, he's been doing very well in PL and is 9-1 in his last 10, with some pretty solid gameplay in his 2 cinch match ups. I wouldn't object to a low spot since the leagues have been cleared out for the most part now.
On January 22 2010 04:53 TwoToneTerran wrote: Leta has turned into FBH 2.0. Mediocre in leagues, Great TvT, Good TvZ, and 3-7 in his last 10 TvPs. rofl.
That said, he's been doing very well in PL and is 9-1 in his last 10, with some pretty solid gameplay in his 2 cinch match ups. I wouldn't object to a low spot since the leagues have been cleared out for the most part now.
Even though Jaedong actually has the exact same winning percentage as Flash since his loss against 815 at the end of October (81.82%), Flash has done so with more games, with series against more top players and with more impressive play. The MSL really can't be enough by itself to make up for the complete superiority Flash has shown since the beginning of the season, unless he would play absolutely rubbish and lose 0-3.
Assuming the series goes 3-1 or 3-2 with Jaedong winning and both players showing strong play, then even if Jaedong would also All-kill KT it would still not be a clear cut #1 position for him, but it would at least be a possibility.
If Flash beats Jaedong and all-kills Oz everything will be suck.
I doubt Jaedong will be number # 1 . Flash has achieved a lot this month . Unless he absolutely owns Flash 3 - 0 or 3 - 1 in a pretty one-sided games and then all - kills KTF , and even then there is a good chance that Flash will still be # 1 with Jaedong a close second .
Leta could take a low PR spot he maybe FBH 2.0 , but at least he doesn't suck as much ass as he does right now . Question is where will Movie end up , he did decent against Flash to say the least and with all other players sucking this month he could probably snick in # 3 , because i can't think of anyone more deserving .
On January 22 2010 07:20 StylishVODs wrote: Some people doesn't want a new bonjwa. Even if the player is the best player ever lived and every other progamer is saying so.
to become a bonjwa today you must play like flash does now for three years in a row. Then they might consider it.
:S. I'm 100% sure all the progamers think FlaSh is one of the greatest, but THE greatest? There are a few gamers right now that are comparable in skill.
Not really since he lost in PL and MSL. If Flash wins MSL then he's "won" PL, won OSL, and won MSL. Kind of a difference. :>
Though I personally thought JD was on his way to Bonjwahood until, well, Flash. Flash is on the cusp of dominating a season more than any player has ever come close to dominating.
On January 22 2010 10:59 TwoToneTerran wrote: Not really since he lost in PL and MSL. If Flash wins MSL then he's "won" PL, won OSL, and won MSL. Kind of a difference. :>
Though I personally thought JD was on his way to Bonjwahood until, well, Flash. Flash is on the cusp of dominating a season more than any player has ever come close to dominating.
JD dominated the scene from february to october. back to back OSLs, msl semifinal and single-handedly taking his team to the winners league and proleague finals. completely rivals (if not beats) flash's shorter run so far.
Well, assuming Flash wins the MSL, he's got 2 titles -- Jaedong comes out a little ahead I guess for making a semi finals but, be fair, that's 10 months -- 3 seasons of tournaments. Flash doesn't even have the CHANCE to get to another semifinals yet. But if you want to give Jaedong the edge here then sure.
That said, Flash has also dominated PL, harder than anyone. Last season Jaedong did not dominate PL the hardest -- he was actually a little worse than Flash (1 more loss) and arguably worse than Bisu, who was one loss behind but with the undisputed best winrate. And I think you kind of forget that Oz still had ForGG and Anytime early on last proleague season -- Forgg up until the END of R3. Oz wasn't even a one man show in WL, as Hiya was the best person not named Bisu, Flash, or Jaedong.
So no, Jaedong didn't "dominate" PL last season, he was just in the running for the best. Jaedong did not "dominate" starleagues because, well, over 10 months there happens to be six and, while it's no doubt incredibly impressive to win back to back OSLs, are you gonna say that's more impressive than a double title win with a straight face?
man my Flash spiels are long winded. This one was just a hypothetical that hasn't happened yet. :o
edit: holy shit I'm a muta now, sweet! I can beat Flash when he doesn't build turrets!
On January 22 2010 11:33 TwoToneTerran wrote: Well, assuming Flash wins the MSL, he's got 2 titles -- Jaedong comes out a little ahead I guess for making a semi finals but, be fair, that's 10 months -- 3 seasons of tournaments. Flash doesn't even have the CHANCE to get to another semifinals yet. But if you want to give Jaedong the edge here then sure.
That said, Flash has also dominated PL, harder than anyone. Last season Jaedong did not dominate PL the hardest -- he was actually a little worse than Flash (1 more loss) and arguably worse than Bisu, who was one loss behind but with the undisputed best winrate. And I think you kind of forget that Oz still had ForGG and Anytime early on last proleague season -- Forgg up until the END of R3. Oz wasn't even a one man show in WL, as Hiya was the best person not named Bisu, Flash, or Jaedong.
So no, Jaedong didn't "dominate" PL last season, he was just in the running for the best. Jaedong did not "dominate" starleagues because, well, over 10 months there happens to be six and, while it's no doubt incredibly impressive to win back to back OSLs, are you gonna say that's more impressive than a double title win with a straight face?
man my Flash spiels are long winded. This one was just a hypothetical that hasn't happened yet. :o
edit: holy shit I'm a muta now, sweet! I can beat Flash when he doesn't build turrets!
anytime wasnt on Oz at all last season.
I think we need to wait and see how flash does in the next 6-8 months.
Jaedong, despite his 2 straight OSL's, wasn't nearly as dominant as Flash has been the last couple of months during his peak. Flash, when he is at his best, plays the best SC the world has ever seen.
I also think that even if Flash wins the MSL, it's too early to stamp him with the B-word. If he keeps up his form and wins a starleague next season too, then yeah, hail to the king.
I'm a Flash fanboy, but I too think it's a bit early to call him the B-word. As far as I've learned from this place, a Bonjwa is one who completely and utterly dominates everyone without a doubt in noones mind that he'd ever get close to losing the game.
The fact that most people still have doubts that he'll win the MSL as well, kindof makes Flash fail that requirement.
On January 22 2010 12:55 Captain Mayhem wrote: I'm a Flash fanboy, but I too think it's a bit early to call him the B-word. As far as I've learned from this place, a Bonjwa is one who completely and utterly dominates everyone without a doubt in noones mind that he'd ever get close to losing the game.
The fact that most people still have doubts that he'll win the MSL as well, kindof makes Flash fail that requirement.
For now... :D
If he wins noone will doubt him anymore...
To be honest, I haven't witnessed such a domination from any player. There is a reason why he was the first one to break 2400.
On January 22 2010 04:53 TwoToneTerran wrote: Leta has turned into FBH 2.0. Mediocre in leagues, Great TvT, Good TvZ, and 3-7 in his last 10 TvPs. rofl.
That said, he's been doing very well in PL and is 9-1 in his last 10, with some pretty solid gameplay in his 2 cinch match ups. I wouldn't object to a low spot since the leagues have been cleared out for the most part now.
fbh was never as good as leta's been
Leta is a proleague monster, but he underperforms in individual leagues, which was never a problem for firebathero. FBH sometimes got very far in individual leagues by demolishing T's and Z's (*cough*, Savior) before losing to the first competent P he ran into --- whereas Leta seems to lose to, well, anybody.
I guess Leta is ahead of FBH in the proleague, but I've always had more respect for players who could put up a decent showing in a Bo5. Maybe Leta will get there.
On January 22 2010 07:20 StylishVODs wrote: Some people doesn't want a new bonjwa. Even if the player is the best player ever lived and every other progamer is saying so.
to become a bonjwa today you must play like flash does now for three years in a row. Then they might consider it.
:S. I'm 100% sure all the progamers think FlaSh is one of the greatest, but THE greatest? There are a few gamers right now that are comparable in skill.
A few? Name the ones besides Jaedong.
Edit: I'll just say it here so I don't triple post --- even if Flash DOES win the MSL, his name still doesn't go with Boxer, Oov, Nada, and Savior. His name will be up there with Jaedong and Bisu (who come next in the "pantheon" of starcraft), but he's not a bonjwa until he bags another few golds and continues to set the curve for a while longer.
On January 22 2010 04:53 TwoToneTerran wrote: Leta has turned into FBH 2.0. Mediocre in leagues, Great TvT, Good TvZ, and 3-7 in his last 10 TvPs. rofl.
That said, he's been doing very well in PL and is 9-1 in his last 10, with some pretty solid gameplay in his 2 cinch match ups. I wouldn't object to a low spot since the leagues have been cleared out for the most part now.
fbh was never as good as leta's been
Leta is a proleague monster, but he underperforms in individual leagues, which was never a problem for firebathero. FBH sometimes got very far in individual leagues by demolishing T's and Z's (*cough*, Savior) before losing to the first competent P he ran into --- whereas Leta seems to lose to, well, anybody.
I guess Leta is ahead of FBH in the proleague, but I've always had more respect for players who could put up a decent showing in a Bo5. Maybe Leta will get there.
No, uh, Leta's made the semifinals a couple times now, which is as far as FBH ever made it. FBH is honestly no more successful in individual leagues than Leta -- atleast nothing significant. Leta is honestly playing like FBH -- baaad TvP, great TvT, off and on, sometimes brilliant sometimes rubbish TvZ. The only differnce is Leta does weird things more often I guess (though FBH is king of BCs)
On January 22 2010 04:53 TwoToneTerran wrote: Leta has turned into FBH 2.0. Mediocre in leagues, Great TvT, Good TvZ, and 3-7 in his last 10 TvPs. rofl.
That said, he's been doing very well in PL and is 9-1 in his last 10, with some pretty solid gameplay in his 2 cinch match ups. I wouldn't object to a low spot since the leagues have been cleared out for the most part now.
fbh was never as good as leta's been
Leta is a proleague monster, but he underperforms in individual leagues, which was never a problem for firebathero. FBH sometimes got very far in individual leagues by demolishing T's and Z's (*cough*, Savior) before losing to the first competent P he ran into --- whereas Leta seems to lose to, well, anybody.
I guess Leta is ahead of FBH in the proleague, but I've always had more respect for players who could put up a decent showing in a Bo5. Maybe Leta will get there.
No, uh, Leta's made the semifinals a couple times now, which is as far as FBH ever made it. FBH is honestly no more successful in individual leagues than Leta -- atleast nothing significant. Leta is honestly playing like FBH -- baaad TvP, great TvT, off and on, sometimes brilliant sometimes rubbish TvZ. The only differnce is Leta does weird things more often I guess (though FBH is king of BCs)
Wait, really? A couple times? I didn't realize that Leta had made semifinals before --- the best I remember him doing is quarterfinals, in that ridiculous series against Luxury. It was largely based on that recollection that I wrote what I did. Leta lost to an erratically-performing Luxury --- and he would have rolled over and died against Jaedong --- while FBH beat Savior, who at the time was still the best Zerg in the world by a mile and an absolute beast in ZvT.
If I'm misremembering and Leta really has made semifinals, I take back what I said about him sucking in individual leagues.
Leta has made quarterfinals twice, not semifinals. His TvZ is really not comparable at all to how good FBH's was at his peak, but his TvP isn't as bad either. Overall I'd say FBH had a better chance to win a league than Leta does now. You can ride two great matchups to a win if everything goes your way (see Casy) but Leta hasn't had the problem of continually being eliminated because of his TvP like FBH did. His other matchups just haven't held up that well in individual leagues.
On January 22 2010 12:55 Captain Mayhem wrote: I'm a Flash fanboy, but I too think it's a bit early to call him the B-word. As far as I've learned from this place, a Bonjwa is one who completely and utterly dominates everyone without a doubt in noones mind that he'd ever get close to losing the game.
Actually, the bonjwas had win rates no better than Flash's over long periods, and performances no better than Flash's this season. Some had weak matchups, too, like Boxer's TvP (his golden mouse was denied three times by Protoss) and Savior's ZvZ. It's just that they were each undisputed #1's for much longer than a season, and each had at least 4 golds. (Well, Boxer is the exception, but back when WCG's used to count for something, he won two of them.)
Still, I think people's nostalgia gets the better of them sometimes --- remember Savior's 1 OSL? Who do you think was winning all of those OSL's while Savior was dominant? Being a bonjwa doesn't mean that you have to win everything, just that you keep winning and winning. If Jaedong wins this MSL, I think he'd be a better candidate than Flash would be if he won it, for that very reason.
Edit in response to TTT below: Yeah, can you imagine Leta taking out Jaedong in a Bo5? That would be equivalent to what FBH did, but in the current time frame. Even though that's basically all FBH ever did in an individual league, I still have to respect him just for that. His TvZ really used to be something else.
Yeah you guys are right. I guess he's useless in a bo5, but FBH isn't much better, honestly.
edit -- edit again -- dur yeah FBH kicked Savior out of MSl once to get to semifinals so I guess he has a slightly better record than Leta, but not by much and he has been "relevant" since, well, savior was a good player.
On January 22 2010 12:55 Captain Mayhem wrote: I'm a Flash fanboy, but I too think it's a bit early to call him the B-word. As far as I've learned from this place, a Bonjwa is one who completely and utterly dominates everyone without a doubt in noones mind that he'd ever get close to losing the game.
Actually, the bonjwas had win rates no better than Flash's over long periods, and performances no better than Flash's this season. Some had weak matchups, too, like Boxer's TvP (his golden mouse was denied three times by Protoss) and Savior's ZvZ. It's just that they were each undisputed #1's for much longer than a season, and each had at least 4 golds. (Well, Boxer is the exception, but back when WCG's used to count for something, he won two of them.)
Still, I think people's nostalgia gets the better of them sometimes --- remember Savior's 1 OSL? Who do you think was winning all of those OSL's while Savior was dominant? Being a bonjwa doesn't mean that you have to win everything, just that you keep winning and winning. If Jaedong wins this MSL, I think he'd be a better candidate than Flash would be if he won it, for that very reason.
Edit in response to TTT below: Yeah, can you imagine Leta taking out Jaedong in a Bo5? That would be equivalent to what FBH did, but in the current time frame. Even though that's basically all FBH ever did in an individual league, I still have to respect him just for that. His TvZ really used to be something else.
his quarterfinal run in the clubday MSL was pretty good too, especially with good TvP wins over Bisu and Much.
On January 22 2010 12:55 Captain Mayhem wrote: I'm a Flash fanboy, but I too think it's a bit early to call him the B-word. As far as I've learned from this place, a Bonjwa is one who completely and utterly dominates everyone without a doubt in noones mind that he'd ever get close to losing the game.
Actually, the bonjwas had win rates no better than Flash's over long periods, and performances no better than Flash's this season. Some had weak matchups, too, like Boxer's TvP (his golden mouse was denied three times by Protoss) and Savior's ZvZ. It's just that they were each undisputed #1's for much longer than a season, and each had at least 4 golds. (Well, Boxer is the exception, but back when WCG's used to count for something, he won two of them.)
Still, I think people's nostalgia gets the better of them sometimes --- remember Savior's 1 OSL? Who do you think was winning all of those OSL's while Savior was dominant? Being a bonjwa doesn't mean that you have to win everything, just that you keep winning and winning. If Jaedong wins this MSL, I think he'd be a better candidate than Flash would be if he won it, for that very reason.
Edit in response to TTT below: Yeah, can you imagine Leta taking out Jaedong in a Bo5? That would be equivalent to what FBH did, but in the current time frame. Even though that's basically all FBH ever did in an individual league, I still have to respect him just for that. His TvZ really used to be something else.
his quarterfinal run in the clubday MSL was pretty good too, especially with good TvP wins over Bisu and Much.
FUCK I miss FBH being good
His TvP was terrible then also, as showed when he got 3-0ed by Bisu once he did not get a big BO advantage (he 2facted vs 1gate expo and killed a million probes with his vultures, and still the game ended up being close late game in the game he won during group stages). His win vs Much was also mainly from bunkerrushing his 12nex and killing lots of probes and the nexus iirc getting into a game deciding advantage. He had those 2 wins and 2 wins vs a lackluster Tempest before he went back into losing most TvPs (Or he did not really go back since he never showed anything impressive in those games despite everyone getting their expectations up on him when it was basically 2 BO advantages and beating a rather bad player, tho I agree he did play pretty well for him at least in those games)
Actually it is kinda weird that he is so bad at TvP since he do have the mechanics for it, its just that his decision making is so god awful. One would think that having Stork\Jangbi helping you out with the matchup would really help, or maybe that is the problem that hes never able to win in practice :p
That being said he was an absolute beast in TvZ and TvT during that time (or from 06-08), especially his TvZ was sick as he was constantly moving around with several armies applying pressure everywhere. He had some sick sick multitasking in that matchup. If he had been lucky with draws and avoided tosses in the BO stages of the Starleagues he could easily have had a Starleague under his belt now since he was basically Casy Jr. At least he was way more likely to win a SL then, than Leta is now. (Of course if he gets himself a Jangbiesque road he could win one, but even then I would be surprised)
On January 22 2010 10:59 TwoToneTerran wrote: Not really since he lost in PL and MSL. If Flash wins MSL then he's "won" PL, won OSL, and won MSL. Kind of a difference. :>
Though I personally thought JD was on his way to Bonjwahood until, well, Flash. Flash is on the cusp of dominating a season more than any player has ever come close to dominating.
JD dominated the scene from february to october. back to back OSLs, msl semifinal and single-handedly taking his team to the winners league and proleague finals. completely rivals (if not beats) flash's shorter run so far.
Flash is not - and will not become a bonjwa this season, just look at his player profile: not enough golds. Bonjwas did own the game for a much longer time (like JD and Bisu did...) not 3 months. And why are we discussing FBH here.. most overrated player in the history of SC imo, especially after those pitiful BO wins vs Much and Bisu in clubday. Bisus utter humiliation of him afterwards should have made that clear (manor scouts ftw). If he didn't act like a clown no one would talk about him now.
On January 22 2010 10:59 TwoToneTerran wrote: Not really since he lost in PL and MSL. If Flash wins MSL then he's "won" PL, won OSL, and won MSL. Kind of a difference. :>
Though I personally thought JD was on his way to Bonjwahood until, well, Flash. Flash is on the cusp of dominating a season more than any player has ever come close to dominating.
JD dominated the scene from february to october. back to back OSLs, msl semifinal and single-handedly taking his team to the winners league and proleague finals. completely rivals (if not beats) flash's shorter run so far.
The thing is, if Flash wins the MSL he will have done something that no one has ever done before - win both OSL and MSL at the same time. I mean shit, only a handful have ever come close! (Nada won both when MSL was still KPGA and came close during YATGK/IOPS, Savior got close with shinhan 3 and gom and.... that's about it lol)
On January 22 2010 12:55 Captain Mayhem wrote: I'm a Flash fanboy, but I too think it's a bit early to call him the B-word. As far as I've learned from this place, a Bonjwa is one who completely and utterly dominates everyone without a doubt in noones mind that he'd ever get close to losing the game.
The fact that most people still have doubts that he'll win the MSL as well, kindof makes Flash fail that requirement.
For now... :D
This is what hinders most people from seeing the clear picture imo. Bonjwas of the past was not as dominant as flash is. Flash has broken almost all the their records, their streaks, their ELO scores the youngest winner etc. They were the best, they were always the favourite in a bo5 unless it was their weakest matchup. So is flash, but he has no weak matchup.
The only arguement that hold is that he needs to dominate over a longer period of time, but you cannot compare it like that anymore since a certain ammount of time today equals a whole lot of more games than in the old days.
In my oppinion both flash and jaedong are modern bonjwas that were just unfortunate to have an equally strong opponent at the same time. People will always remember them as the best, bonjwa or not¨.
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter to me if they're called bonjwas or not. Best player in the world is enough.
On January 22 2010 12:55 Captain Mayhem wrote: I'm a Flash fanboy, but I too think it's a bit early to call him the B-word. As far as I've learned from this place, a Bonjwa is one who completely and utterly dominates everyone without a doubt in noones mind that he'd ever get close to losing the game.
The fact that most people still have doubts that he'll win the MSL as well, kindof makes Flash fail that requirement.
For now... :D
This is what hinders most people from seeing the clear picture imo. Bonjwas of the past was not as dominant as flash is. Flash has broken almost all the their records, their streaks, their ELO scores the youngest winner etc. They were the best, they were always the favourite in a bo5 unless it was their weakest matchup. So is flash, but he has no weak matchup.
The only arguement that hold is that he needs to dominate over a longer period of time, but you cannot compare it like that anymore since a certain ammount of time today equals a whole lot of more games than in the old days.
In my oppinion both flash and jaedong are modern bonjwas that were just unfortunate to have an equally strong opponent at the same time. People will always remember them as the best, bonjwa or not¨.
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter to me if they're called bonjwas or not. Best player in the world is enough.
The key word in my post was "everyone". What I meant was that the Bonjwas of old weren't matched in skill until their reign ended, unlike now where Flash and JD are really, really close in skill level. It's not about percentage, amounts of gold medals or records or any solid goals like that. It's ultimately the community that decides who is Bonjwa and who is not, and I doubt that many of the people who have followed the Starcraft pro scene from the very beginning would allow ANY new players to be dubbed Bonjwa, simply because of nostalgia.
So, with the risk of sounding corny, we'll just "know it" when there's a new Bonjwa in the house. I think Flash is damn close, but not quite there yet.
But yeah, I agree. In the end, it's just a bling title that doesn't affect their ability of roflpwning the rest
On January 22 2010 21:12 Elroi wrote: And why are we discussing FBH here.. most overrated player in the history of SC imo, especially after those pitiful BO wins vs Much and Bisu in clubday. Bisus utter humiliation of him afterwards should have made that clear (manor scouts ftw). If he didn't act like a clown no one would talk about him now.
Bullshit. Granted, his TvP has always sucked, but he really used to have S-class TvZ and top notch TvT, and he has always had a very entertaining and spectacular style in-game, so he would've been distinguished from the average progamer even if he had not pulled of all those ceremonial antics.
On January 22 2010 21:12 Elroi wrote: Flash is not - and will not become a bonjwa this season, just look at his player profile: not enough golds. Bonjwas did own the game for a much longer time (like JD and Bisu did...) not 3 months. And why are we discussing FBH here.. most overrated player in the history of SC imo, especially after those pitiful BO wins vs Much and Bisu in clubday. Bisus utter humiliation of him afterwards should have made that clear (manor scouts ftw). If he didn't act like a clown no one would talk about him now.
Your CJ icon is eloquent. Did you just choose to forget that FBH used to be amazing in 2 matchups, or were you not around at the time? Cause he's definitely NOT the most overrated player, he was a legitimate threat to any T and any Z, proleague or individual league, Bo1 or Bo5.
On January 22 2010 21:12 Elroi wrote: And why are we discussing FBH here.. most overrated player in the history of SC imo, especially after those pitiful BO wins vs Much and Bisu in clubday. Bisus utter humiliation of him afterwards should have made that clear (manor scouts ftw). If he didn't act like a clown no one would talk about him now.
Bullshit. Granted, his TvP has always sucked, but he really used to have S-class TvZ and top notch TvT, and he has always had a very entertaining and spectacular style in-game, so he would've been distinguished from the average progamer even if he had not pulled of all those ceremonial antics.
Ofc he is not an average player (now he is alot worse than the average and before he was above average). But you could argue that players like Kwanro and Luxury have had more success as gamers. Both of them has taken individual league medals and both of them has alot higher ELO peaks. But would you remember anyone of them a year after they played their last half descent game? No, I don't think so. Just look at the comments noobs leave on his games on youtube even today. Guys that have no idea who Kwanro or Luxury are writes stuff like "man I can't wait till FBH comes back and starts winning starleagues again!". Alot of people still think that this guy is winning 80% of his games - that is to overrate someone. But yeah, I'm biased...
[QUOTE]On January 23 2010 02:41 Elroi wrote: [QUOTE]On January 22 2010 23:33 Holgerius wrote: [QUOTE]On January 22 2010 21:12 Elroi wrote: And why are we discussing FBH here.. most overrated player in the history of SC imo, especially after those pitiful BO wins vs Much and Bisu in clubday. Bisus utter humiliation of him afterwards should have made that clear (manor scouts ftw). If he didn't act like a clown no one would talk about him now.[/QUOTE] Bullshit. Granted, his TvP has always sucked, but he really used to have S-class TvZ and top notch TvT, and he has always had a very entertaining and spectacular style in-game, so he would've been distinguished from the average progamer even if he had not pulled of all those ceremonial antics. [/QUOTE]
Ofc he is not an average player (now he is alot worse than the average and before he was above average). But you could argue that players like Kwanro and Luxury have had more success as gamers. Both of them has taken individual league medals and both of them has alot higher ELO peaks. But would you remember anyone of them a year after they played their last half descent game? No, I don't think so. Just look at the comments noobs leave on his games on youtube even today. Guys that have no idea who Kwanro or Luxury are writes stuff like "man I can't wait till FBH comes back and starts winning starleagues again!". Alot of people still think that this guy is winning 80% of his games - that is to overrate someone. But yeah, I'm biased... [/QUOTE
]
Man you got a really dark picture of fbh fans in your mind LOL
On January 22 2010 12:55 Captain Mayhem wrote: I'm a Flash fanboy, but I too think it's a bit early to call him the B-word. As far as I've learned from this place, a Bonjwa is one who completely and utterly dominates everyone without a doubt in noones mind that he'd ever get close to losing the game.
The fact that most people still have doubts that he'll win the MSL as well, kindof makes Flash fail that requirement.
For now... :D
This is what hinders most people from seeing the clear picture imo. Bonjwas of the past was not as dominant as flash is. Flash has broken almost all the their records, their streaks, their ELO scores the youngest winner etc. They were the best, they were always the favourite in a bo5 unless it was their weakest matchup. So is flash, but he has no weak matchup.
The only arguement that hold is that he needs to dominate over a longer period of time, but you cannot compare it like that anymore since a certain ammount of time today equals a whole lot of more games than in the old days.
In my oppinion both flash and jaedong are modern bonjwas that were just unfortunate to have an equally strong opponent at the same time. People will always remember them as the best, bonjwa or not¨.
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter to me if they're called bonjwas or not. Best player in the world is enough.
The key word in my post was "everyone". What I meant was that the Bonjwas of old weren't matched in skill until their reign ended, unlike now where Flash and JD are really, really close in skill level. It's not about percentage, amounts of gold medals or records or any solid goals like that. It's ultimately the community that decides who is Bonjwa and who is not, and I doubt that many of the people who have followed the Starcraft pro scene from the very beginning would allow ANY new players to be dubbed Bonjwa, simply because of nostalgia.
So, with the risk of sounding corny, we'll just "know it" when there's a new Bonjwa in the house. I think Flash is damn close, but not quite there yet.
But yeah, I agree. In the end, it's just a bling title that doesn't affect their ability of roflpwning the rest
I don't think Flash and JD are that close, or at least, they haven't the last few months. The MSL is getting crazy hyped because they're #1 and #2 and they've historically been close, but not as of late.
Flash has 70 ELO points on JD, and at one point, had over 100 points. That is a really big gap.
On January 23 2010 13:11 TwoToneTerran wrote: I love Flash about asmuch as anyone here possibly can but you'd be an absolute dolt to count Jaedong out. Ever. Even a little bit.
I never count anybody out. There's always a chance at an upset, but I'm just contesting the idea the Flash and Jaedong are so close right now.
To be honest, Jaedong won solidly. It was close though; closer than the numbers would indicate, and Jaedong had the practice time advantage. I'm not sure what this all implies for the Power Rank.
Yup, Flash stays at #1 unless JD does something mindbogglingly spectacular in WL, this was not enough of a showing from him to attain #1 yet, even though he did play great.
Also, this sucks so much, I'm not even able to feel good about Jaedong winning...
Flash will keep #1 for sure. But Jaedong is so close to #1 Flash should be afraid.
Anyone who has watched the finals (I mean before the blackout) has seen that Jaedong plays AT LEAST on par with Flash if not better. And this is why Flash will never be bonjwa.
Yeah, Jaedong played amazingly. I feel bad for both players. I also agree that Flash and Jaedong are standing on top of SC right now, and neither of them will probably get far enough ahead of the other to earn bonjwa status, now.
I'm just really disappointed tonight. Not that Flash lost, but that it happened like this. I'm sure Jaedong isn't happy about it either. MSL looked like a sick dog that needed to be put out of its misery, what with Jaedong awkwardly trying to smile and what sounded like 3 or 4 fangirls total making noise.
jaedong looked really sad i agree and flash was just like this thing is a joke.
however, i think it proved pretty conclusively that jaedong is still a force to be reckoned with and still playing at an astonishingly high level, for anyone who doubted that.
well, flash should keep his #1, but I think we all saw that JD is aprox at the same skill level with him. When Jaedong owned, no one was this close to him (maybe fantasy, but ...nah). I hope the bonjwa talk will end here.
On January 23 2010 21:10 din wrote: hmm... Flash will be surely Nr.1 on February PR, but I will also get a headache on the comments of childish jd fanboys :D
Nah i'm pretty satisfied with Jaedong's showing . He showed that he can compete with Flash and saved us from "OMG Flash is an invincible bonjwa comments " . Not that i disagree with Flash being a bonjwa , but i think Jaedong deserves it just as much even thought Flash is the better player right now . It pains me thought that "super natural powers" had to take place in their series ....
Jaedong and Flash are both the best players. Jaedong played it abit more risky this series giving him an edge. 3hatch before pool in 2 games as opposed to flash not going for 14CC or 1suply CC any game.
I felt that jaedong was ahead buildorderwise in all games except game nr1. so imo its not enough to put him ahead of flash. Jaedong played great though..
On January 23 2010 22:20 StylishVODs wrote: Jaedong and Flash are both the best players. Jaedong played it abit more risky this series giving him an edge. 3hatch before pool in 2 games as opposed to flash not going for 14CC or 1suply CC any game.
I felt that jaedong was ahead buildorderwise in all games except game nr1. so imo its not enough to put him ahead of flash. Jaedong played great though..
You know one rax cc>12 hatch 11pool BO-wise?
There is no even BO in any of the tvp, tvz, zvp matchups. There will always be one with the better BO.
Switch 1 and 3, imo. How many players can say they've beaten down the best player in the game so badly that they're reduced to tears and their father goes nuts?
I don't think you can say that any other zerg could've played like JD did in game 3.... That was spectacular. Anyways, JD is looking quite good once again. His ZvP is in its finest form. His ZvT is looking quite strong (I mean come on, his only losses lately have come from flash, and sea), and his ZvZ is looking strong as well. With winners league coming up I fully expect him to go into monster mode. Seeing flash breaking all sorts of records has probably made him hungry to break some of his own records.
Well, Flash is playing on bonjwa level; look at his record during the season. Ridiculous ELO peak, by far the best player in PL, winner of OSL (where he beat JD on the way) and MSL finalist. Savior never dominated this hard. The problem is that Jaedong is fucking sick as well and can obviously play good games against Flash. Plus he has won 5 Starleagues. We need a new term to classify these amazing GOAT candidates. They're above S-class and they can't both be bonjwa.
I am asking for a JD #1 please if you do not mind. We all know that JD was the true #2 in this current PR and Stork as #2 was simply Plexa flame baiting JD fans or suffering extreme cognitive dissonance. Jaedong and Flash have went 3-3 vs each other since the SL's started, and as much as you want to question the legitimacy of JD's win, he was the better and more prepared player in the bo5, infact this series and his builds this series only further proves that he is the best Bo5 series player to ever play the game and pretty much only up with Nada as greatest player ever. Noone except Nada and Oov have won 4 starleagues in a faster time span than JD did. But JD has the record for 5 starleagues.
Flash is invincible and has a better record than JD you say? Well not anymore.
Jaedong stats since November 80.56% winrate. 2 of them are ZvZs Ive watched, one he lost due to a bo loss, the other he lost to simply building one pair less of lings vs a all ining opponent. JD has lost 3 ZvZs, 3 games vs Flash who he returned the favor to by taking 3 games back in the finals in this season, and a loss due to going 9pool then being greedy vs Sea. I realize that half of the people here are completely blinded by the flashing wins of our favorite terran to realize that JD has been racking up the wins and breaking records. The most dominant SL run up to date, with one hell of a imbalanced map pool vZ and becoming the best ZvPer to ever play the game with a 16 winstreak( which doesnt include raping TaekBang in WCG, the games vs Stork were close, but he simply raped Bisu)
77% winrate which is also mind blowing considering the amount of games he has played. But the only reason he played more games over JD is 1) Hwaseung Oz is actually being nice to JD this season and is letting him off the hook for the ace matches 2)He got to eliminate JD from OSL first which was last month.
What am I rambling about anyways . This is all going to be settled during the KT vs Oz WL match up this month. Prepare to be hyped because both these men have something to prove and will be going all out during that series considering their recent rivalry + WL rivalry. Here's to an epic series because I'm sure both Flash/JD are looking to rack up some wins and send a strong message to their fans.
Well, jaedong's been playing better than flash lately, but that's only because his skills have been able to be displayed because of his lighter schedule. This shouldn't help Flash on the Power Ranking, but it seems it would be unfair to hurt him either. In any event, Jaedong's shot at #1 should not be hurt for his lighter schedule. Finding the right balance will be an interesting event.
Statistically speaking, either Flash or jaedong could be number one (simply because many of Flash's losses were irrelevant--loss to kwanro, for example)
Game-wise, it could go either way, again, but I feel Jaedong comes out a little ahead. It's obvious that Plexa was wrong about Jaedong's ZvT. It was able to stop Flash's best matchup at its peak, and in a somewhat convincing fashion, too. If nothing else, Jaedong planned a superb BO5. His ZvP is the best ever, and his ZvZ, this month, is comparable to Flash's TvT, if not better. I would put Jaedong at #1, but I am a little biased.
It would make perfect sense to place Flash at number one though, especially if he gets another win this month.
It's funny, but I actually think Jaedong is ahead.
I actually expected (or at least wasn't at all surprised by the results) that Jaedong would win the MSL finals, and that it would happen pretty much the way it did (except for the blackout, of course): Flash losing a game or two to mutalisk harass, and a game or two to successful mind games / build orders intended to directly counter Flash's recent strategies. Jaedong had the strategic advantage coming into the series (due to being able to study Flash's huge number of recent TvZs), probably a practice time advantage, and maybe also a motivational advantage since Flash just won a league.
Given Flash's 1 gold + 1 silver vs Jaedong's 1 gold, and that they traded series for their respective victories... with the OSL in recent memory, I anticipated that Flash would still have a clear lead even after things turning out the way they did. But after actually watching the games, I'm not so sure. Jaedong clearly was ahead the entire series. I don't think the results imply that Jaedong is a better player; they only imply that the pendulum just firmly swung back in his favor (and probably will swing back the other way soon). It was inevitable that someone would stop Flash sooner or later, and I'm happy that it was JD. I'm maybe slightly disappointed that Flash couldn't take another title to balance out his undeservedly poor league record, but there's no question that the two most deserving players won one league each this season.
Interestingly OZ vs KT in WL remains to happen this month, and if one player kills the other, that could definitely influence the next Power Rank. But with the usual luck, probably either Killer or fOrGG will all-kill. It's on MBC too, so who knows what might happen!
On January 24 2010 04:46 LucasWoJ wrote: Well, jaedong's been playing better than flash lately, but that's only because his skills have been able to be displayed because of his lighter schedule. This shouldn't help Flash on the Power Ranking, but it seems it would be unfair to hurt him either. In any event, Jaedong's shot at #1 should not be hurt for his lighter schedule. Finding the right balance will be an interesting event.
Statistically speaking, either Flash or jaedong could be number one (simply because many of Flash's losses were irrelevant--loss to kwanro, for example)
Game-wise, it could go either way, again, but I feel Jaedong comes out a little ahead. It's obvious that Plexa was wrong about Jaedong's ZvT. It was able to stop Flash's best matchup at its peak, and in a somewhat convincing fashion, too. If nothing else, Jaedong planned a superb BO5. His ZvP is the best ever, and his ZvZ, this month, is comparable to Flash's TvT, if not better. I would put Jaedong at #1, but I am a little biased.
It would make perfect sense to place Flash at number one though, especially if he gets another win this month.
You know, Jaedong only had one ZvZ this month, and he lost, against Crazy-Hydra :p
On January 24 2010 04:46 LucasWoJ wrote: Well, jaedong's been playing better than flash lately, but that's only because his skills have been able to be displayed because of his lighter schedule. This shouldn't help Flash on the Power Ranking, but it seems it would be unfair to hurt him either. In any event, Jaedong's shot at #1 should not be hurt for his lighter schedule. Finding the right balance will be an interesting event.
Statistically speaking, either Flash or jaedong could be number one (simply because many of Flash's losses were irrelevant--loss to kwanro, for example)
Game-wise, it could go either way, again, but I feel Jaedong comes out a little ahead. It's obvious that Plexa was wrong about Jaedong's ZvT. It was able to stop Flash's best matchup at its peak, and in a somewhat convincing fashion, too. If nothing else, Jaedong planned a superb BO5. His ZvP is the best ever, and his ZvZ, this month, is comparable to Flash's TvT, if not better. I would put Jaedong at #1, but I am a little biased.
It would make perfect sense to place Flash at number one though, especially if he gets another win this month.
You know, Jaedong only had one ZvZ this month, and he lost, against Crazy-Hydra :p
I was going to say that Flash also has the disadvantage of having lost his aura of invincibility in TvT... but that's much worse :p
Yeah, I was largely comparing the two losses (really versus crazy-hydra) with my post, and it was unfair to say that his zvz is better than Flash's TvT. In any event, Jaedong has a seemingly invincible matchup that Flash does not have anymore.
On January 24 2010 07:22 StylishVODs wrote: Flash have seemingly invincible matchups. all three. the only one who can stop him is jaedong on a good day, but remember he lost 0-2 in osl...
I don`t mind Flash at #1, although JD is also great in all MUs imo
On January 24 2010 07:22 StylishVODs wrote: Flash have seemingly invincible matchups. all three. the only one who can stop him is jaedong on a good day, but remember he lost 0-2 in osl...
Remember that that was last month though. I'm referring specifically to this month, and Jaedong's zvp (against any toss), to me at least, seems like a more of a sure bet than any of Flash's matchups.
After those finals, we have Flash 2375 at ELO and JD at 2358, five points below his peak. Two players above 2350 ELO at the same time, that's just insanity.
Give JD 10 ZvPs straight, and he might also get 2400.
Regardless, Flash has to be #1. While JD has not performed much worse thant Flash in the last few months and his play was really really good, it did not have the invincibility which Flash showed in all three match-ups. Flashs play just left me speechless time after time.
That being said, JDs performance against Kal also was pure art.
jaedong: still the best z v z in the game. the best z v p in the fucking whole of sc (july compares but nowhere near the consistency of jaedong in this.. holy mother of god, can any toss take him down?) best z v t, his strategical genius in countering flash was sick. if he hadn't gotten guardians kept pouring on the muta harass in game 2 at flash's main, i believe it would have been a 3-0.
To think before the finals most people apart from the die hard JD fans thought that Flash will win 3-1 with Jaedong cheesing the one win or Flash fail cheesing.
I wonder how many more times does JD have to prove himself?
On January 24 2010 10:07 SuperArc wrote: To think before the finals most people apart from the die hard JD fans thought that Flash will win 3-1 with Jaedong cheesing the one win or Flash fail cheesing.
I wonder how many more times does JD have to prove himself?
It's his 2nd time already. There were two things I felt when I was watching the series live on TV. First, JD truly is the King of Bo5. He is so fucking clutch and can pull some crazy ass shit that'll just make your jaws drop. Second, Flash proved to be a human just like JD. Flash had the pressure of dual leagues + proleague (minus 1 proleague game). But I don't think that compares to being in dual leagues + grand final proleague especially when both semis were only 1 day apart. At any rate, they're both humans.
Anyways, gratz to JD. Well-deserved win and title and with this, he cemented himself as one of the greatest ZvTer and Player of all time especially the fact that the series played on T heavily favored maps.
what dice said was important. it has to be taken into account that jaedong is the undisputed king of bo5; in a different scenario (like osl bo3 or imo a wl match) flash is still a favorite.
On January 24 2010 07:22 StylishVODs wrote: Flash have seemingly invincible matchups. all three. the only one who can stop him is jaedong on a good day, but remember he lost 0-2 in osl...
Remember that that was last month though. I'm referring specifically to this month, and Jaedong's zvp (against any toss), to me at least, seems like a more of a sure bet than any of Flash's matchups.
You do realize Flash's loss against Really (which was played between 2 of Flash's Bo5's) was his first TvT loss since May last year?
JD sort of took a big lead in the race for GOAT by getting another gold (5 vs 2 instead of 4 vs 3), but we must not forget that Flash's overall dominance this season has been the most epic in the history of SC.
On January 24 2010 07:22 StylishVODs wrote: Flash have seemingly invincible matchups. all three. the only one who can stop him is jaedong on a good day, but remember he lost 0-2 in osl...
Remember that that was last month though. I'm referring specifically to this month, and Jaedong's zvp (against any toss), to me at least, seems like a more of a sure bet than any of Flash's matchups.
22 wins in a row. Unbeaten for 8 months.
There's never been a matchup better than Flash's TvT. :>
On January 24 2010 15:47 Hinanawi wrote: You know there's KT vs Oz Winner's League before the end of the month, right? That could easily swing #1/#2 around depending on what happens.
If you ask me, I say JD #1 and Flash #2 because of the Finals and overall performance of the month + win loss ratio. However, on an unbiased point of view, I truly believe they both deserve the #1 spot. Can't the moderator, whoever updates the next PR, just make 2 #1 slots and give both JD and Flash the spot? Lol.. they both are champions after all! (but like Hinanawi said, this could all change on WL)
On January 24 2010 15:47 Hinanawi wrote: You know there's KT vs Oz Winner's League before the end of the month, right? That could easily swing #1/#2 around depending on what happens.
If you ask me, I say JD #1 and Flash #2 because of the Finals and overall performance of the month + win loss ratio. However, on an unbiased point of view, I truly believe they both deserve the #1 spot. Can't the moderator, whoever updates the next PR, just make 2 #1 slots and give both JD and Flash the spot? Lol.. they both are champions after all! (but like Hinanawi said, this could all change on WL)
So you say 1 gold> 1 gold +1 silver? no way can jaedong be nr. 1. Flash beat him in OSL, JD beat flash in MSL, but flash did well in BOTH leagues, Jaedong only in one.
On January 24 2010 15:47 Hinanawi wrote: You know there's KT vs Oz Winner's League before the end of the month, right? That could easily swing #1/#2 around depending on what happens.
If you ask me, I say JD #1 and Flash #2 because of the Finals and overall performance of the month + win loss ratio. However, on an unbiased point of view, I truly believe they both deserve the #1 spot. Can't the moderator, whoever updates the next PR, just make 2 #1 slots and give both JD and Flash the spot? Lol.. they both are champions after all! (but like Hinanawi said, this could all change on WL)
So you say 1 gold> 1 gold +1 silver? no way can jaedong be nr. 1. Flash beat him in OSL, JD beat flash in MSL, but flash did well in BOTH leagues, Jaedong only in one.
That's due to brackets only And last time I checked the PR gave more weight to the current month in play, where Jaedong came on top.
On January 24 2010 15:47 Hinanawi wrote: You know there's KT vs Oz Winner's League before the end of the month, right? That could easily swing #1/#2 around depending on what happens.
If you ask me, I say JD #1 and Flash #2 because of the Finals and overall performance of the month + win loss ratio. However, on an unbiased point of view, I truly believe they both deserve the #1 spot. Can't the moderator, whoever updates the next PR, just make 2 #1 slots and give both JD and Flash the spot? Lol.. they both are champions after all! (but like Hinanawi said, this could all change on WL)
So you say 1 gold> 1 gold +1 silver? no way can jaedong be nr. 1. Flash beat him in OSL, JD beat flash in MSL, but flash did well in BOTH leagues, Jaedong only in one.
That's due to brackets only And last time I checked the PR gave more weight to the current month in play, where Jaedong came on top.
Also to box sets, which a split best of three is not. A head-to-head Bo5 is the gold standard of comparative skill.
On January 24 2010 15:47 Hinanawi wrote: You know there's KT vs Oz Winner's League before the end of the month, right? That could easily swing #1/#2 around depending on what happens.
If you ask me, I say JD #1 and Flash #2 because of the Finals and overall performance of the month + win loss ratio. However, on an unbiased point of view, I truly believe they both deserve the #1 spot. Can't the moderator, whoever updates the next PR, just make 2 #1 slots and give both JD and Flash the spot? Lol.. they both are champions after all! (but like Hinanawi said, this could all change on WL)
So you say 1 gold> 1 gold +1 silver? no way can jaedong be nr. 1. Flash beat him in OSL, JD beat flash in MSL, but flash did well in BOTH leagues, Jaedong only in one.
That's due to brackets only And last time I checked the PR gave more weight to the current month in play, where Jaedong came on top.
You have to take into consideration that Flash was in both leagues and won the OSL despite losing to Jaedong losing in the MSL. Flash had a stellar month, he still deserves the #1 spot.
On January 24 2010 15:47 Hinanawi wrote: You know there's KT vs Oz Winner's League before the end of the month, right? That could easily swing #1/#2 around depending on what happens.
If you ask me, I say JD #1 and Flash #2 because of the Finals and overall performance of the month + win loss ratio. However, on an unbiased point of view, I truly believe they both deserve the #1 spot. Can't the moderator, whoever updates the next PR, just make 2 #1 slots and give both JD and Flash the spot? Lol.. they both are champions after all! (but like Hinanawi said, this could all change on WL)
Flash had such a remarkable season and a very good month, he's still #1. Also Flash had to prepare in both the OSL and MSL while Jaedong only had to prepare for one SL.
On January 24 2010 15:47 Hinanawi wrote: You know there's KT vs Oz Winner's League before the end of the month, right? That could easily swing #1/#2 around depending on what happens.
If you ask me, I say JD #1 and Flash #2 because of the Finals and overall performance of the month + win loss ratio. However, on an unbiased point of view, I truly believe they both deserve the #1 spot. Can't the moderator, whoever updates the next PR, just make 2 #1 slots and give both JD and Flash the spot? Lol.. they both are champions after all! (but like Hinanawi said, this could all change on WL)
Flash had such a remarkable season and a very good month, he's still #1. Also Flash had to prepare in both the OSL and MSL while Jaedong only had to prepare for one SL.
Flash had 6 days for the finals versus JDs 7 days + he had 2 boX vZ he had to prepare for ahead of finals time (vKwanro + Zero), JD only played 3 games vT on the final maps and all 3 games were on the same day. Both players had great months, but JD won the series that mattered the most, thats why JD was also "no3" this month even though he went 14-3. Also you might want to check JD's stats this season, they are just as remarkable with the exception of his ZvZ.
Flash also had PL, where he was not only in the line up, but also brought out for ace. You guys seem to keep forgetting that practice time wasn't nearly as close.
edit ^^^^ No they aren't. Jaedong's at 76% winrate, Flash is at 81%. Flash was a solid 5% better than Jaedong.
If you want to split hairs, in recent times, Jaedong and Flash have gone 3:3, continuing their historic precedence of Flash wins Bo3s Jaedong wins Bo5s. Jaedong says Flash is better, Flash says Jaedong is better. The only legitimate metric we have is performance and, well, Flash has the higher winrate, they both have a gold medal, Flash has a silver medal, Flash has destroyed proleague harder than anyone ever has before etc etc. Flash is still ahead, Jaedong just proved he isn't invincible.
Jaedong is my favorite player, but Flash deserves #1. I'd consider the MSL 2:1 for Jaedong. He had the 3rd game won, but if you watch game 4 you'll see it can't be counted as a legitimate game to gauge the two players' skill, because Flash was obviously not himself that game. Since Flash otherwise had a flawless month, it wouldn't be fair to say Jaedong is the better player. Jaedong comes in as a close second, and the rest of the Power Rank needs to be filled up with any constellation of scrubs.
On January 24 2010 21:04 InFdude wrote: Again with the 4th game shit . Flash went barracks first and JD had a 9 pool .Wake up ppl .
And when it was obvious it wouldn't work, he didn't expand but went with some really half assed sparks terran rush that you'd likely see from the scrubs that play in the Elite High School League, not the best terran in the world.
Whether or not you think the 4th game means anything, it doesn't matter. Its obvious that Flash didn't give a shit after one hour of unprofessional, emotional bullshit and probably wanted to go back to the KT house and relax. Good grief, this is the kid that only around 5 months ago said that he misses his mum and dad. People seem to forget that Flash isn't even 18 yet.
People keep thinking Flash is some machine or some robot. He isn't. He's a bloody child and what do you think a child would do in a such a situation when your dad is possibly embarrassing himself infront of essentially what is the media, your coach is going nuts, you're already two sets down, and you have to endure all of this rubbish for a whole hour?
Jaedong stats since November 80.56% winrate. 2 of them are ZvZs Ive watched, one he lost due to a bo loss, the other he lost to simply building one pair less of lings vs a all ining opponent. JD has lost 3 ZvZs, 3 games vs Flash who he returned the favor to by taking 3 games back in the finals in this season, and a loss due to going 9pool then being greedy vs Sea. I realize that half of the people here are completely blinded by the flashing wins of our favorite terran to realize that JD has been racking up the wins and breaking records. The most dominant SL run up to date, with one hell of a imbalanced map pool vZ and becoming the best ZvPer to ever play the game with a 16 winstreak( which doesnt include raping TaekBang in WCG, the games vs Stork were close, but he simply raped Bisu)
You make a good point here. JD HAS been breaking a few records of his own lately. 10 months at #1 on KESPA, breaking Savior's streak, going 14-0 in ZvP bringing down the best PvZers in series, and surpassing the highest ZvP ELO, and going on the most dominant "starleague" run ever, with 11 straight wins, and an overall winning percentage of 92.8%.
But if anything, that JD's feats haven't even been noticed just goes to show just how strong flash has been in these past three months. Flash has shown bonjwa-like dominace. 22 TvT wins over 8 months, reaching 70% in all matchups, reaching a stratospheric ELO peak (Not to mention breaking 2400 three times) and winning the OSL while making it to MSL finals simultaneously. Not only that but the way in which he beats his opponents is something else... Especially in his TvZ he beats his opponents with an air of supreme dominance. All zergs (Except for one mighty one) have looked utterly, helpless against him. Flash overwhelms and outplays them in every single way imaginable and he does it effortlessly.
However, with JD's recent showing, I'd say he's somehow clawed and cursed his way to flash's level (I imagine to "The Eye of the Tiger"), and is only an eye lash away from flash now. Flash remains in his throne, but looks uneasy as he glances at JD standing before him.
Jaedong should be nr2. Its really hard taking both titles. Flash almost did it, and had it not been for him playing 1000 games vs zergs recently and jaedongs ability to find weaknesses to his play he might have done it. Game 1 and 4 wasn't really showing any skill from either player and that sadens me abit.
One thing about flash though it didn't seem as he had prepared anything risky/special in the series except for the bunkerrush in game 4 which he had done twice on that map already the last two games. Flash didn't play his normal abusive play and he was punnished for that since jaedong took every advantage he could by doing risky things such as no dronescout and 3hatch before pool etc. I felt almost as flash didn't prepare for this finals and thats really wierd, coz im sure he did. A predicting commentator said: Flash can throw anything at jaedong and he must try to beat it. But flash didn't throw anything at jaedong. It was jaedong who did these builds where flash had to adapt.
With that said, 1 gold + 1 silver when jaedong vs flash is 3-3 in recent games + the fact that flash has broken records left and right and peaked over 2400 elo is surely enough to give flash the first spot. but PR has been hard on flash before, i hope this time its not coz he deseves it.
On January 24 2010 22:30 StylishVODs wrote: Jaedong should be nr2. Its really hard taking both titles. Flash almost did it, and had it not been for him playing 1000 games vs zergs recently and jaedongs ability to find weaknesses to his play he might have done it. Game 1 and 4 wasn't really showing any skill from either player and that sadens me abit.
One thing about flash though it didn't seem as he had prepared anything risky/special in the series except for the bunkerrush in game 4 which he had done twice on that map already the last two games. Flash didn't play his normal abusive play and he was punnished for that since jaedong took every advantage he could by doing risky things such as no dronescout and 3hatch before pool etc. I felt almost as flash didn't prepare for this finals and thats really wierd, coz im sure he did. A predicting commentator said: Flash can throw anything at jaedong and he must try to beat it. But flash didn't throw anything at jaedong. It was jaedong who did these builds where flash had to adapt.
With that said, 1 gold + 1 silver when jaedong vs flash is 3-3 in recent games + the fact that flash has broken records left and right and peaked over 2400 elo is surely enough to give flash the first spot. but PR has been hard on flash before, i hope this time its not coz he deseves it.
Flash is not the only one whos been breaking records left and right. Thats why I said the fairest solution would be to award #1 to both players. They showed us this month that both of them are completely on another level than all others. Not even Stork or Bisu are close to them skill-wise.
I also kinda feel that Taek Bang Lee Ssang will soon change into Lee Ssang. Stork and Bisu's peaks are over, Jaedong's might be ending soon too and with SC2 close I pity Flash since he will most likely not have his chance to prove that he could have been the GOTA because he had to face Jaedong during his peak.
Jaedongs play was shadowed by flash's. Theres a reason to it. The fact that jaedong beat flash tossed it around abit but not enough since last time flash won 2-0 with ease. If it was the other way around it would have been jaedong everyone talked about and predicting to win both finals.
On January 24 2010 22:30 StylishVODs wrote: Jaedong should be nr2. Its really hard taking both titles. Flash almost did it, and had it not been for him playing 1000 games vs zergs recently and jaedongs ability to find weaknesses to his play he might have done it. Game 1 and 4 wasn't really showing any skill from either player and that sadens me abit.
One thing about flash though it didn't seem as he had prepared anything risky/special in the series except for the bunkerrush in game 4 which he had done twice on that map already the last two games. Flash didn't play his normal abusive play and he was punnished for that since jaedong took every advantage he could by doing risky things such as no dronescout and 3hatch before pool etc. I felt almost as flash didn't prepare for this finals and thats really wierd, coz im sure he did. A predicting commentator said: Flash can throw anything at jaedong and he must try to beat it. But flash didn't throw anything at jaedong. It was jaedong who did these builds where flash had to adapt.
With that said, 1 gold + 1 silver when jaedong vs flash is 3-3 in recent games + the fact that flash has broken records left and right and peaked over 2400 elo is surely enough to give flash the first spot. but PR has been hard on flash before, i hope this time its not coz he deseves it.
Flash is not the only one whos been breaking records left and right. Thats why I said the fairest solution would be to award #1 to both players. They showed us this month that both of them are completely on another level than all others. Not even Stork or Bisu are close to them skill-wise.
I also kinda feel that Taek Bang Lee Ssang will soon change into Lee Ssang. Stork and Bisu's peaks are over, Jaedong's might be ending soon too and with SC2 close I pity Flash since he will most likely not have his chance to prove that he could have been the GOTA because he had to face Jaedong during his peak.
I doubt there is anyone who would argue that flash is GOAT skillwise...
On January 24 2010 22:30 StylishVODs wrote: Jaedong should be nr2. Its really hard taking both titles. Flash almost did it, and had it not been for him playing 1000 games vs zergs recently and jaedongs ability to find weaknesses to his play he might have done it. Game 1 and 4 wasn't really showing any skill from either player and that sadens me abit.
One thing about flash though it didn't seem as he had prepared anything risky/special in the series except for the bunkerrush in game 4 which he had done twice on that map already the last two games. Flash didn't play his normal abusive play and he was punnished for that since jaedong took every advantage he could by doing risky things such as no dronescout and 3hatch before pool etc. I felt almost as flash didn't prepare for this finals and thats really wierd, coz im sure he did. A predicting commentator said: Flash can throw anything at jaedong and he must try to beat it. But flash didn't throw anything at jaedong. It was jaedong who did these builds where flash had to adapt.
With that said, 1 gold + 1 silver when jaedong vs flash is 3-3 in recent games + the fact that flash has broken records left and right and peaked over 2400 elo is surely enough to give flash the first spot. but PR has been hard on flash before, i hope this time its not coz he deseves it.
I agree JD should be #2, but what`s with the: "game 1 wasn`t really showing any skill from either player". Ok I agree with game 4, but c`mon, that was the first game of the series, no excuse for that. In game 1 JD's mutalisks were pretty cool if u ask me. And it was Flash's mistake to not defend well, and that is a minus to him, not a nonsense.
What i mean is the game was too short and ended because of one obvious mistake. The mutamicro in the beginning wasn't even that awesome as he lost 2 of his firwst mutas right away.
The game was kind of a fluke. Flash either forgot to put turrets up in main, or he was just 1 second too slow to bring down his units there and it ended.
simply put: It was not a game where we can sit back and watch the awesomeness of the players.
We still have Hwaseung vs. KT in Winner's League to determine the issue of #1. If you ask yourself, who has been playing best in January, that's probably Flash. If you think about who is the strongest player right now, it would have to be Jaedong.
On January 25 2010 01:39 StylishVODs wrote: What i mean is the game was too short and ended because of one obvious mistake. The mutamicro in the beginning wasn't even that awesome as he lost 2 of his firwst mutas right away.
The game was kind of a fluke. Flash either forgot to put turrets up in main, or he was just 1 second too slow to bring down his units there and it ended.
simply put: It was not a game where we can sit back and watch the awesomeness of the players.
It was Flash's decision to keep powering SCVs and to skimp on turrets at his main. He gambled he could fend off mutas before range finished and Jaedong made him pay for it, and that's hardly the first time it's happened to him.
On January 25 2010 01:42 Aesop wrote: We still have Hwaseung vs. KT in Winner's League to determine the issue of #1. If you ask yourself, who has been playing best in January, that's probably Flash. If you think about who is the strongest player right now, it would have to be Jaedong.
Why, because he is 3:3 against flash in last 6 games?
On January 25 2010 01:42 Aesop wrote: We still have Hwaseung vs. KT in Winner's League to determine the issue of #1. If you ask yourself, who has been playing best in January, that's probably Flash. If you think about who is the strongest player right now, it would have to be Jaedong.
Why, because he is 3:3 against flash in last 6 games?
On January 25 2010 01:39 StylishVODs wrote: What i mean is the game was too short and ended because of one obvious mistake. The mutamicro in the beginning wasn't even that awesome as he lost 2 of his firwst mutas right away.
The game was kind of a fluke. Flash either forgot to put turrets up in main, or he was just 1 second too slow to bring down his units there and it ended.
simply put: It was not a game where we can sit back and watch the awesomeness of the players.
It was Flash's decision to keep powering SCVs and to skimp on turrets at his main. He gambled he could fend off mutas before range finished and Jaedong made him pay for it, and that's hardly the first time it's happened to him.
yeah i know the reason why he lost. the point was game 1 and 4 wasn't games that showed any extraordinary play or great skill.
However i think it was either that he made a factory that decided he didnt have a turret there, or he put a turret there but the scv returned without building it due to low minerals or something like that.
On January 25 2010 01:39 StylishVODs wrote: What i mean is the game was too short and ended because of one obvious mistake. The mutamicro in the beginning wasn't even that awesome as he lost 2 of his firwst mutas right away.
The game was kind of a fluke. Flash either forgot to put turrets up in main, or he was just 1 second too slow to bring down his units there and it ended.
simply put: It was not a game where we can sit back and watch the awesomeness of the players.
It was Flash's decision to keep powering SCVs and to skimp on turrets at his main. He gambled he could fend off mutas before range finished and Jaedong made him pay for it, and that's hardly the first time it's happened to him.
yeah i know the reason why he lost. the point was game 1 and 4 wasn't games that showed any extraordinary play or great skill.
However i think it was either that he made a factory that decided he didnt have a turret there, or he put a turret there but the scv returned without building it due to low minerals or something like that.
or he forgot about it. Anyway, no point in arguing that. He lost that game from his own mistakes.
Flash and jeadong are really close skillwise atm. The way I see it flash has a gold and a silver, jd has a gold beating flash 2-1 on terran maps in the msl (game 4 is not a game you count for anything). Flash beaten jeadong 2-0 in the osl and made it further both leauges so I would say flash is still #1 by a small margin but both #1 and #2 are so far ahead of anyone else atm.
Except that the 2-0 was last month and does not necessarily (in fact it doesn't at all) impact this Power Ranking at all. Look at the very last series and not the OSL RO8 because that's kind of irrelevant after what happened two nights ago.
On January 25 2010 03:42 LucasWoJ wrote: Except that the 2-0 was last month and does not necessarily (in fact it doesn't at all) impact this Power Ranking at all. Look at the very last series and not the OSL RO8 because that's kind of irrelevant after what happened two nights ago.
Power Rank has never just been about one month. It's about players and how they're playing. The OSL 2-0 is relevant because it's indicative of what Flash is capable of at the moment. It's very different that JD is 3-3 against Flash lately instead of 3-1, because it's applicable to understanding how they're playing right now.
Don't you think the results of the MSL, which are more recent, would demonstrate what Flash is capable against the best Zerg player in the world than the one-month old OSL results?
What he's capable of at the moment? Let's look at the games from the MSL two nights ago. Flash loses 1-3. He's outsmarted in the fourth game (and his play is subpar because of the controversy). He plays brilliantly in the second game against a build tailored to stop him. He plays very well in game 3, but not as well as we're used to seeing him play. Jaedong plays better. Flash also makes a mistake in game 1. This should not be disregarded because he loses the series. Flash in December (meaning the guy last month) might have placed more turrets instead of teching, yet he does in January. Have you considered that perhaps he's worse than he was in December (if ever so slightly), and that's why the December games are irrelevant?
Also, if we're looking past precedent, look at the August Power Ranking. Jaedong is number 1, despite losing (in curshing fashion) to fantasy twice in perhaps the most important "league." They were both 3-3 against each other in that month, and yet, the most recent results decided where they ended up on the Power Ranking.
On January 25 2010 01:42 Aesop wrote: We still have Hwaseung vs. KT in Winner's League to determine the issue of #1. If you ask yourself, who has been playing best in January, that's probably Flash. If you think about who is the strongest player right now, it would have to be Jaedong.
and I completely disagree...
That doesn't come as much of a surprise. I would still say that Flash and Jaedong are a 50:50 right now.
The main argument for keeping Flash at #1 is, well, gold + silver > gold, his proleague excellence, and he did it all with a definitively worse schedule.
The tunnel vision in this thread is somewhat annoying. I'm simultaneously hearing that Flash's OSL win didn't count for as much because he had easy opponents giving him a free ride, but that his drubbing of Jaedong in said OSL also doesn't count because it was a month ago. Can you really have it both ways?
Then there's saying something obtusely insular such as that Jaedong's win ratio is higher so far this month despite having played half as many games as Flash. Using similarly simple math, one could say that 1 gold + 1 silver > 1 gold.
Or saying that the Bo5 in the MSL Finals was ultimately definitive and answered the question once and for all. Sigh, MBC.. The only thing determinable from that series was that neither the last game nor the final score were truly representative. There's always going to be a question mark on it. Despite what that lame visual studio would have you believe, that last game was not played in a vacuum. Unfortunate stuff happened, and there was no way Flash went unaffected. If anything, the 8rax indicated Flash's desire to get the game over with quickly, for good or bad.
I love both Flash and Jaedong, but objectively, Flash should retain the top spot.
Just an observation, but shouldn't Flash's two ace wins in January-against Stork and Calm-be measured in the mix as well? In both of those matches he won both his scheduled game and the ace match, and in doing so kept KT's strong lead in the PL standings. In the set he did drop to Really KT was already down 2-0 in the match.
A gold, a silver, and saving his team's bacon in PL in the same month. His play wasn't quite at the untouchable stratospheric level of Nov/Dec, but I think the scheduling stress+overall much higher quality of players played makes up for it.
On January 25 2010 05:03 jalstar wrote: savior stayed at #1 after Bisu 3-0ed him.
Because Jaedong is new to the scene, whereas Flash has been the dominant player for years. Riiiiiight. Nevermind Jaedong just won his third consecutive starleague, and Flash just won his first starleague in a year and a half.
On January 24 2010 21:04 InFdude wrote: Again with the 4th game shit . Flash went barracks first and JD had a 9 pool .Wake up ppl .
JD didn't go 9pool, he went overpool. And Flash didn't go 8rax, he went 7rax. Jaedong predicted Flash's cheese, and took a huge-but-safe economic lead. Flash had the choice to play a macro game from a very large disadvantage, or go all-in. He chose the latter, and lost.
Where was the out-of-game drama every other time Flash 7raxed?
This is going to be one hard power rank for the top 2 spots. Flash and JD. Which one? Both have accomplished things unheard of this month. On one side you have Flash playing the greatest T v everything ever seen, who has also led his team to the rank #1 spot in proleague, and on the other side you have the current reigning tyrant, the greatest Zerg player of all time, JD, who now owns a ZvP record, iirc a third starleague championship in a row, and defeated the hottest player this month 3-1 in the finals.
On January 25 2010 05:03 jalstar wrote: savior stayed at #1 after Bisu 3-0ed him.
Because Jaedong is new to the scene, whereas Flash has been the dominant player for years. Riiiiiight. Nevermind Jaedong just won his third consecutive starleague, and Flash just won his first starleague in a year and a half.
On January 24 2010 21:04 InFdude wrote: Again with the 4th game shit . Flash went barracks first and JD had a 9 pool .Wake up ppl .
JD didn't go 9pool, he went overpool. And Flash didn't go 8rax, he went 7rax. Jaedong predicted Flash's cheese, and took a huge-but-safe economic lead. Flash had the choice to play a macro game from a very large disadvantage, or go all-in. He chose the latter, and lost.
Where was the out-of-game drama every other time Flash 7raxed?
Because of the circumstances surrounding the MSL, particularly Flash's mental state in game 4 - which, mind you, had nothing to do with Jaedong's mental game - it's really difficult to determine whether Flash would have been outplayed that entire series if the blackout did not occur.
People who understand the game far better than you or I (Such as IdrA) felt that Flash had a fighting chance in Game 3, pre-blackout, and Flash outplayed Jaedong in the second set.
Regardless, Flash has been doing better in Proleague, won a legitimate OSL, and has been more dominant overall than Jaedong. Without question, he deserves the number one spot.
On January 25 2010 05:03 jalstar wrote: savior stayed at #1 after Bisu 3-0ed him.
Because Jaedong is new to the scene, whereas Flash has been the dominant player for years. Riiiiiight. Nevermind Jaedong just won his third consecutive starleague, and Flash just won his first starleague in a year and a half.
On January 24 2010 21:04 InFdude wrote: Again with the 4th game shit . Flash went barracks first and JD had a 9 pool .Wake up ppl .
JD didn't go 9pool, he went overpool. And Flash didn't go 8rax, he went 7rax. Jaedong predicted Flash's cheese, and took a huge-but-safe economic lead. Flash had the choice to play a macro game from a very large disadvantage, or go all-in. He chose the latter, and lost.
Where was the out-of-game drama every other time Flash 7raxed?
Because of the circumstances surrounding the MSL, particularly Flash's mental state in game 4 - which, mind you, had nothing to do with Jaedong's mental game - it's really difficult to determine whether Flash would have been outplayed that entire series if the blackout did not occur.
People who understand the game far better than you or I (Such as IdrA) felt that Flash had a fighting chance in Game 3, pre-blackout, and Flash outplayed Jaedong in the second set.
Regardless, Flash has been doing better in Proleague, won a legitimate OSL, and has been more dominant overall than Jaedong. Without question, he deserves the number one spot.
Did Idra really say that? I thought he said the opposite; that JD's advantage was decisive. Can you give a source?
Did people take into account JD's problems with KeSPA (the free agancy thing) last season? It's not a critique, I'm only curious... If not, I don't think they should care about Flash's mental state in game 4. If they did, you have a point.
I think JD completely outclassed Flash in the MSL finals. Even in game 2 he had a good shot at winning the game imo. But I still believe - even though I'm a huge JD fan - that Flash should keep the #1 spot in the Power Rank - he has just owned so hard lately that one series shouldn't be able to take that away from him.
And yes they took into account Jaedong's struggle. Plexa even wrote a FE on it. That Jaedong took the Golden Mouse through all the nasty losses and FA was amazing and he was given #1 over Fantasy.
On January 25 2010 05:03 jalstar wrote: savior stayed at #1 after Bisu 3-0ed him.
Because Jaedong is new to the scene, whereas Flash has been the dominant player for years. Riiiiiight. Nevermind Jaedong just won his third consecutive starleague, and Flash just won his first starleague in a year and a half.
On January 24 2010 21:04 InFdude wrote: Again with the 4th game shit . Flash went barracks first and JD had a 9 pool .Wake up ppl .
JD didn't go 9pool, he went overpool. And Flash didn't go 8rax, he went 7rax. Jaedong predicted Flash's cheese, and took a huge-but-safe economic lead. Flash had the choice to play a macro game from a very large disadvantage, or go all-in. He chose the latter, and lost.
Where was the out-of-game drama every other time Flash 7raxed?
Because of the circumstances surrounding the MSL, particularly Flash's mental state in game 4 - which, mind you, had nothing to do with Jaedong's mental game - it's really difficult to determine whether Flash would have been outplayed that entire series if the blackout did not occur.
People who understand the game far better than you or I (Such as IdrA) felt that Flash had a fighting chance in Game 3, pre-blackout, and Flash outplayed Jaedong in the second set.
Regardless, Flash has been doing better in Proleague, won a legitimate OSL, and has been more dominant overall than Jaedong. Without question, he deserves the number one spot.
Did Idra really say that? I thought he said the opposite; that JD's advantage was decisive. Can you give a source?
Did people take into account JD's problems with KeSPA (the free agancy thing) last season? It's not a critique, I'm only curious... If not, I don't think they should care about Flash's mental state in game 4. If they did, you have a point.
I think JD completely outclassed Flash in the MSL finals. Even in game 2 he had a good shot at winning the game imo. But I still believe - even though I'm a huge JD fan - that Flash should keep the #1 spot in the Power Rank - he has just owned so hard lately that one series shouldn't be able to take that away from him.
Outclassed? Come on.
Game one - Flash stupidly forgot to add turrets. If Flash defended against the muta harass, the game would of been up for grabs.
Game two - Flash showing his remarkable skills and micro.
Game three - Flash could of ended that game earlier if he had known that Jaedong's main and natural was totally unguarded. Of course we wouldn't know who really would of won because of the black out.
Game four - Jaedong countered a predictable bunker rush from Flash. If the game went into mid and late game, Flash could of won.
I still think Flash is better at late game compared to Jaedong. Of course Flash will get his revenge in the 26th.
On January 25 2010 05:03 jalstar wrote: savior stayed at #1 after Bisu 3-0ed him.
Because Jaedong is new to the scene, whereas Flash has been the dominant player for years. Riiiiiight. Nevermind Jaedong just won his third consecutive starleague, and Flash just won his first starleague in a year and a half.
On January 24 2010 21:04 InFdude wrote: Again with the 4th game shit . Flash went barracks first and JD had a 9 pool .Wake up ppl .
JD didn't go 9pool, he went overpool. And Flash didn't go 8rax, he went 7rax. Jaedong predicted Flash's cheese, and took a huge-but-safe economic lead. Flash had the choice to play a macro game from a very large disadvantage, or go all-in. He chose the latter, and lost.
Where was the out-of-game drama every other time Flash 7raxed?
Because of the circumstances surrounding the MSL, particularly Flash's mental state in game 4 - which, mind you, had nothing to do with Jaedong's mental game - it's really difficult to determine whether Flash would have been outplayed that entire series if the blackout did not occur.
People who understand the game far better than you or I (Such as IdrA) felt that Flash had a fighting chance in Game 3, pre-blackout, and Flash outplayed Jaedong in the second set.
Regardless, Flash has been doing better in Proleague, won a legitimate OSL, and has been more dominant overall than Jaedong. Without question, he deserves the number one spot.
Did Idra really say that? I thought he said the opposite; that JD's advantage was decisive. Can you give a source?
Did people take into account JD's problems with KeSPA (the free agancy thing) last season? It's not a critique, I'm only curious... If not, I don't think they should care about Flash's mental state in game 4. If they did, you have a point.
I think JD completely outclassed Flash in the MSL finals. Even in game 2 he had a good shot at winning the game imo. But I still believe - even though I'm a huge JD fan - that Flash should keep the #1 spot in the Power Rank - he has just owned so hard lately that one series shouldn't be able to take that away from him.
Outclassed? Come on.
Game one - Flash stupidly forgot to add turrets. If Flash defended against the muta harass, the game would of been up for grabs.
Game two - Flash showing his remarkable skills and micro.
Game three - Flash could of ended that game earlier if he had known that Jaedong's main and natural was totally unguarded. Of course we wouldn't know who really would of won because of the black out.
Game four - Jaedong countered a predictable bunker rush from Flash. If the game went into mid and late game, Flash could of won.
I still think Flash is better at late game compared to Jaedong. Of course Flash will get his revenge in the 26th.
On January 25 2010 07:22 TwoToneTerran wrote: rofl you quoted yourself.
And yes they took into account Jaedong's struggle. Plexa even wrote a FE on it. That Jaedong took the Golden Mouse through all the nasty losses and FA was amazing and he was given #1 over Fantasy.
nope, JD beat fantasy in the semis, and that counted, not the FA thing.
On January 25 2010 05:03 jalstar wrote: savior stayed at #1 after Bisu 3-0ed him.
Because Jaedong is new to the scene, whereas Flash has been the dominant player for years. Riiiiiight. Nevermind Jaedong just won his third consecutive starleague, and Flash just won his first starleague in a year and a half.
On January 24 2010 21:04 InFdude wrote: Again with the 4th game shit . Flash went barracks first and JD had a 9 pool .Wake up ppl .
JD didn't go 9pool, he went overpool. And Flash didn't go 8rax, he went 7rax. Jaedong predicted Flash's cheese, and took a huge-but-safe economic lead. Flash had the choice to play a macro game from a very large disadvantage, or go all-in. He chose the latter, and lost.
Where was the out-of-game drama every other time Flash 7raxed?
Because of the circumstances surrounding the MSL, particularly Flash's mental state in game 4 - which, mind you, had nothing to do with Jaedong's mental game - it's really difficult to determine whether Flash would have been outplayed that entire series if the blackout did not occur.
People who understand the game far better than you or I (Such as IdrA) felt that Flash had a fighting chance in Game 3, pre-blackout, and Flash outplayed Jaedong in the second set.
Regardless, Flash has been doing better in Proleague, won a legitimate OSL, and has been more dominant overall than Jaedong. Without question, he deserves the number one spot.
Did Idra really say that? I thought he said the opposite; that JD's advantage was decisive. Can you give a source?
Did people take into account JD's problems with KeSPA (the free agancy thing) last season? It's not a critique, I'm only curious... If not, I don't think they should care about Flash's mental state in game 4. If they did, you have a point.
I think JD completely outclassed Flash in the MSL finals. Even in game 2 he had a good shot at winning the game imo. But I still believe - even though I'm a huge JD fan - that Flash should keep the #1 spot in the Power Rank - he has just owned so hard lately that one series shouldn't be able to take that away from him.
Outclassed? Come on.
Game one - Flash stupidly forgot to add turrets. If Flash defended against the muta harass, the game would of been up for grabs.
Game two - Flash showing his remarkable skills and micro.
Game three - Flash could of ended that game earlier if he had known that Jaedong's main and natural was totally unguarded. Of course we wouldn't know who really would of won because of the black out.
Game four - Jaedong countered a predictable bunker rush from Flash. If the game went into mid and late game, Flash could of won.
I still think Flash is better at late game compared to Jaedong. Of course Flash will get his revenge in the 26th.
nope nope nope. game 1, it was flash believing in his m&m control vs jaedong's mutas to control his main. he loaded turrets at his nat, but due to unit pathing and miscontrol, jaedong owned a handful of rines behind the mineral line. in the main, jaedong put on a micro clinic demolishing flash with superb micro that is reminiscent of when jaedong was on his z v t tear.
game 2, it was a great game up until jaedong went guardians. i dont think he has EVER won a game iwht guardians, but if he kept muta harassing hsi main, jaedong would have had a closer game going on. with the guardians dieing, it signified the end of the standing army and flash capitalized at this moment and killed jaedong with one great drop. props to flash, it was a sick move.
game 3, fantastic game. both players showed crazy micro, insane macro, and great gamesense. flash's macro was omfg jaw droppign crazy. jaedong's flanks, defenses, vessel sniping and late game management is one to be talked about for the ages. before the blackout, flash had just started mining out of his third mineral only (which is flankable on 3 sides) 30 seconds earlier, flash's main was mined out, his natural was running out (you can see the minerals dissapearing in the vod), he also only had 10 marines, 6 medics, and 2 vessels who didnt even have mana to irradiate two defilers at jaedongs's 7oclock.
jaedong on the other hand had 5 gasses up (7oclock double gas, nat, 3rd and main). he also was putting up expo at 1oclock which would have pushed him to 6 gas zerg. he had all his tech up. both were maxed out on upgrades. he had been keeping flash's vessel count EXTREMELY low. he had streams of units heading toward his 7oclock on minimap (dont know what they were but zerglings or ultras, they both would be invincible under swarm). all jaedong had to do was swarm/zling and his ults that were still alive and force the third to lift for flash. and since had such incredible macro througout the game, do you really believe he had 3000 in the bank? nah, jaedong pretty much had the game 99% of the time. it was incredible, but we all know jaedong had it in the bag and if you claim otherwise, you don't play sc. it still is unfair flash wasn't given a chance to fight for that 1% chance to win, but its not kespa's fault, they dealt with the situation best they could, but mbc's fault. to reward a rematch after set 3 blackout would have been a terrible blow to jaedong after coming back from behind. it was shit situation.
game 4 was simple. flash did 7rax just like in osl, jaedong soul read him with his incredible star sense and preceded to overpool. flash was behind from that point on, and especially after he let the zergling scout his main when he coulda just parted firebat / scv at ramp. game over after that.
On January 25 2010 05:03 jalstar wrote: savior stayed at #1 after Bisu 3-0ed him.
Because Jaedong is new to the scene, whereas Flash has been the dominant player for years. Riiiiiight. Nevermind Jaedong just won his third consecutive starleague, and Flash just won his first starleague in a year and a half.
On January 24 2010 21:04 InFdude wrote: Again with the 4th game shit . Flash went barracks first and JD had a 9 pool .Wake up ppl .
JD didn't go 9pool, he went overpool. And Flash didn't go 8rax, he went 7rax. Jaedong predicted Flash's cheese, and took a huge-but-safe economic lead. Flash had the choice to play a macro game from a very large disadvantage, or go all-in. He chose the latter, and lost.
Where was the out-of-game drama every other time Flash 7raxed?
Because of the circumstances surrounding the MSL, particularly Flash's mental state in game 4 - which, mind you, had nothing to do with Jaedong's mental game - it's really difficult to determine whether Flash would have been outplayed that entire series if the blackout did not occur.
People who understand the game far better than you or I (Such as IdrA) felt that Flash had a fighting chance in Game 3, pre-blackout, and Flash outplayed Jaedong in the second set.
Regardless, Flash has been doing better in Proleague, won a legitimate OSL, and has been more dominant overall than Jaedong. Without question, he deserves the number one spot.
Did Idra really say that? I thought he said the opposite; that JD's advantage was decisive. Can you give a source?
Did people take into account JD's problems with KeSPA (the free agancy thing) last season? It's not a critique, I'm only curious... If not, I don't think they should care about Flash's mental state in game 4. If they did, you have a point.
I think JD completely outclassed Flash in the MSL finals. Even in game 2 he had a good shot at winning the game imo. But I still believe - even though I'm a huge JD fan - that Flash should keep the #1 spot in the Power Rank - he has just owned so hard lately that one series shouldn't be able to take that away from him.
Outclassed? Come on.
Game one - Flash stupidly forgot to add turrets. If Flash defended against the muta harass, the game would of been up for grabs.
Game two - Flash showing his remarkable skills and micro.
Game three - Flash could of ended that game earlier if he had known that Jaedong's main and natural was totally unguarded. Of course we wouldn't know who really would of won because of the black out.
Game four - Jaedong countered a predictable bunker rush from Flash. If the game went into mid and late game, Flash could of won.
I still think Flash is better at late game compared to Jaedong. Of course Flash will get his revenge in the 26th.
On January 25 2010 07:22 TwoToneTerran wrote: rofl you quoted yourself.
And yes they took into account Jaedong's struggle. Plexa even wrote a FE on it. That Jaedong took the Golden Mouse through all the nasty losses and FA was amazing and he was given #1 over Fantasy.
nope, JD beat fantasy in the semis, and that counted, not the FA thing.
I'm a big big Jaedong fan, but Flash deserves the number 1 this month (barring the WL match)
However the advantage was in Game 3, Game 4 was not the Flash we expected to see. Jaedong's victory was hollow, and not indicative of true player strength.
Considering Flash's historic form, his 1 Gold 1 Silver month, it would be a shame not to put him.
Jaedong though is clearly the strongest number 2 that this ranking will have ever seen.
Honestly, I just hope Kwanro moves up. TL.net in general seems to never give him the credit he deserves. Unless he does something very stupid I expect him to be 5th place for this month.
As far as the top two slots, I think that all depends on the winner's league match. Who ever dominates in that (unless both get killed off?) should be #1. If neither actually get to play I would hand the slight edge to Flash despite being a huge JD fan.
Sea needs to be removed from the list entirely and both Shine and Zero can move down a few slots.
On January 25 2010 07:22 TwoToneTerran wrote: rofl you quoted yourself.
And yes they took into account Jaedong's struggle. Plexa even wrote a FE on it. That Jaedong took the Golden Mouse through all the nasty losses and FA was amazing and he was given #1 over Fantasy.
nope, JD beat fantasy in the semis, and that counted, not the FA thing.
I think you lack reading comprehension.
you're trying to say that if the FA issues didn`t happen, Fantasy would`ve been in the #1 spot, which is false. JD just beat him in the semis, and he also got to the msl semis.
Nope, not what I'm saying, but I'm glad you can read my mind.
I was saying that the effect of FA on Jaedong only served to highlight his status, just like Flash's schedule and the power problems serve to mitigate him right now. There's never *1* thing that completely defines who should be #1 and #2, usually.
On January 25 2010 16:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: Nope, not what I'm saying, but I'm glad you can read my mind.
I was saying that the effect of FA on Jaedong only served to highlight his status, just like Flash's schedule and the power problems serve to mitigate him right now. There's never *1* thing that completely defines who should be #1 and #2, usually.
yes but it didn`t influence the spots. And people before u argued that it should/shouldn`t. And you then replied to them. So yeah, if I didn`t catch the idea my bad..
I can't understand why some people want Jaedong on the first spot... Flash made it to both finals this month. You realize how often that happens?
Jaedong was totally dominated last time they met not long ago and this time he won. Sure he can play at flash's current skill level (if he 3hatch before pool), but he hasn't accomplished what flash has this month.
On January 25 2010 17:37 StylishVODs wrote: I can't understand why some people want Jaedong on the first spot... Flash made it to both finals this month. You realize how often that happens?
Jaedong was totally dominated last time they met not long ago and this time he won. Sure he can play at flash's current skill level (if he 3hatch before pool), but he hasn't accomplished what flash has this month.
So what is it when he just dominates him with his early mutas? Or read him correct and destroys his bunker rush play? Luck?
On January 25 2010 17:37 StylishVODs wrote: I can't understand why some people want Jaedong on the first spot... Flash made it to both finals this month. You realize how often that happens?
Jaedong was totally dominated last time they met not long ago and this time he won. Sure he can play at flash's current skill level (if he 3hatch before pool), but he hasn't accomplished what flash has this month.
Last time I checked the only reason JD didnt reach both finals is that he had to face Flash in the ro8 of OSL, if the brackets were different it would've been a different story. And what matters in the PR are the results now, and JD was clearly the superior player and more prepared player in that finals, he read Flash like an open book and played superior BOs every single set. You are criticizing JD's decision to 3hat before pool before addressing the fact that this is the most imba TvZ map pool since Shinhan 3 and every single Zerg who had a chance to commentate on the map pool has said the same. You are ignoring the fact that ZvT is JD's weakest mu and that JD's ZvP is simply fucking godlike since WCG, he raped most of the top tosses. JD did not match Flash's play that series, he was simply the better player that Bo5. It's funny how Flash fans count 1 straight up game + 1 all in to be a clear indicator that Flash is superior player while when JD outplays him both mechanically and strategically in a bo5 on a extremely imba map pool they suffer cognitive dissonance.
Do you really think Flash is fucking retarded enough to drop 40k and throw the last game by changing his bo impromptu? The same bos both Flash and Jaedong prepared for for an entire week? They were so shocked by the situation that they changed their bos. JD got a bo advantage over Flash by miles, Flash chose to all in rather than play a game vs JD where he is extremely behind tech wise and economically. Sure Flash mightve thought he was the superior player going to that series, sure the fans and the players thought Flash was superior, but JD went into that Bo5 prepared to win and showed that he is the superior player, this is not the first time he has done this.
and for the record, reading someone correctly is actually just luck in the end. Its a good guess. "ok so flash has done this 2 times in a row on this map, i hope he does it this time too."
I'm not saying Jaedong's play wasn't good. Obviously it was. But is one series enough to already put flash down a spot after repeatingly breaking 2400 elo and going to dual finals in one month?
I'm not a blind flash fanboy. Last time he won with his 7rax vs jaedong.(although beutiful build for that map) I wasn't trying to say his game was superior to jaedongs. Not even in the first game. If you look at the games you clearly see both playing playing awesome and mostly capitalizing on minor mistakes that are easily fixed.
Flash's overall performance lately has simply been better than jaedongs. Some people are like: ok he won this and that game, he's clearly the superior player! it doesn't work that way.
And yes. Jaedong was way better prepared for this finals than flash as far as I could tell.
On January 25 2010 18:29 StylishVODs wrote: I think you're both misunderstanding me.
and for the record, reading someone correctly is actually just luck in the end. Its a good guess. "ok so flash has done this 2 times in a row on this map, i hope he does it this time too."
I'm not saying Jaedong's play wasn't good. Obviously it was. But is one series enough to already put flash down a spot after repeatingly breaking 2400 elo and going to dual finals in one month?
I'm not a blind flash fanboy. Last time he won with his 7rax vs jaedong.(although beutiful build for that map) I wasn't trying to say his game was superior to jaedongs. Not even in the first game. If you look at the games you clearly see both playing playing awesome and mostly capitalizing on minor mistakes that are easily fixed.
Flash's overall performance lately has simply been better than jaedongs. Some people are like: ok he won this and that game, he's clearly the superior player! it doesn't work that way.
And yes. Jaedong was way better prepared for this finals than flash as far as I could tell.
JD is 80% winrate the past 3 months. You guys simply havent been watching JD games or looking at his record, his only losses come from BO losses ZvZ due to opponents building too many lings + 3x losses to Flash (he came out on top in the recent fight which matters the most for the current month) + 1xloss to sea by going 9pool and deciding not to build sunks because it will put him far behind. Just because JD has to play the most volatile mu in the world doesnt make him worse than Flash, his ZvP has looked just as strong as Flash's TvZ, except he beat Flash's TvZ.
On January 25 2010 18:29 StylishVODs wrote: I think you're both misunderstanding me.
and for the record, reading someone correctly is actually just luck in the end. Its a good guess. "ok so flash has done this 2 times in a row on this map, i hope he does it this time too."
I'm not saying Jaedong's play wasn't good. Obviously it was. But is one series enough to already put flash down a spot after repeatingly breaking 2400 elo and going to dual finals in one month?
I'm not a blind flash fanboy. Last time he won with his 7rax vs jaedong.(although beutiful build for that map) I wasn't trying to say his game was superior to jaedongs. Not even in the first game. If you look at the games you clearly see both playing playing awesome and mostly capitalizing on minor mistakes that are easily fixed.
Flash's overall performance lately has simply been better than jaedongs. Some people are like: ok he won this and that game, he's clearly the superior player! it doesn't work that way.
And yes. Jaedong was way better prepared for this finals than flash as far as I could tell.
JD is 80% winrate the past 3 months. You guys simply havent been watching JD games or looking at his record, his only losses come from BO losses ZvZ due to opponents building too many lings + 3x losses to Flash (he came out on top in the recent fight which matters the most for the current month) + 1xloss to sea by going 9pool and deciding not to build sunks because it will put him far behind. Just because JD has to play the most volatile mu in the world doesnt make him worse than Flash, his ZvP has looked just as strong as Flash's TvZ, except he beat Flash's TvZ.
samachking speaks the truth. Making both finals isn't a greater achievement when either one can only be eliminated by the other. Jaedong plays superior to Flash currently and that is what matters.
Yes i have. I actually only watch jaedong and flash play now because i dont have time to watch everything anymore.
Both players presented almost equally good play this month. When they face off the first time flash won and got to both finals. If it was the other way around jaedong would probably be in flashes place and flash would have won jaedong in MSL.
The difference between them and why you should put flash at nr1 this month is: Flash had to prepare/play for 23 games. (thus breaking elo 2400) Jaedong had to prepare/play for 12 games. (could he have kept it up like flash? dont know) (this gives me a hint why jaedong was more prepared for this finals than flash) then watch all their games and decide how well they played given these circumstances.
Some people might think the workload doesn't affect their play or their predictability. I do. If we still don't agree on this one we might aswell let it go and agree to disagree. I think flash deserves the nr1 spot.
On January 25 2010 18:48 StylishVODs wrote: Yes i have. I actually only watch jaedong and flash play now because i dont have time to watch everything anymore.
Both players presented equally good results. When they face off the first time flash won and got to both finals. If it was the other way around jaedong would probably be in flashes place and flash would have won jaedong in MSL.
The difference between them and why you should put flash at nr1 this month is: Flash had to prepare/play for 23 games. Jaedong had to prepare/play for 12 games. then watch all their games and decide how well they played given these circumstances.
If we still don't agree on this one we might aswell let it go and agree to disagree. I think flash deserves the nr1 spot.
Here is what I don't like about this presentation and about the amount of games Flash had 6 days to prepare for the MSL finals + the fact that he played 2 BoXs vZ in the MSL Jaedong had 7 days to prepare for the MSL finals with playing terrans only 3 times on a single map and had to prepare for all 4 maps from scratch
While as Flash's record is fucking impressive and I am not denying that. But the fact is #1 and #2 is not decided by records, its decided by who is the better player and showed who is the better player, and with a finals both had adequate time to prepare for, one showed that he was the better player that day.
"Flash had 6 days to prepare for the MSL finals + the fact that he played 2 BoXs vZ in the MSL Jaedong had 7 days to prepare for the MSL finals with playing terrans only 3 times on a single map and had to prepare for all 4 maps from scratch"
I think this argument actually benefits jaedong. Jaedong had all flashes cards at hand. Flash didn't know what to prepare for. And we saw the results. All jaedongs BO's was specifically designed to beat flashes and they did.
Your second argument i agree with. But i don't think its enough given the circumstances. I think having to play double ammount of games with equally good winningpercentage is stronger. Jaedong showed he was better prepared that day, flash showed that he has what it takes to play on a level no one has played on before (thus elo 2400+ twice). Maybe jaedong could have done it, but he hasn't done it before and we cannot know coz he was kicked out by flash.
On January 25 2010 19:06 StylishVODs wrote: "Flash had 6 days to prepare for the MSL finals + the fact that he played 2 BoXs vZ in the MSL Jaedong had 7 days to prepare for the MSL finals with playing terrans only 3 times on a single map and had to prepare for all 4 maps from scratch"
I think this argument actually benefits jaedong. Jaedong had all flashes cards at hand. Flash didn't know what to prepare for. And we saw the results. All jaedongs BO's was specifically designed to beat flashes and they did.
Your second argument i agree with. But i don't think its enough given the circumstances. I think having to play double ammount of games with equally good winningpercentage is stronger. Jaedong showed he was better prepared that day...
How did it actually benefit Jaedong at all? Flash actually abused that to mind fuck JD by cheesing and 7/8raxing every game and going for sunk busts vs Kwanro/Calm. If anything if you asked anyone, they would reply Flash had the upper hand with that. He forced JD to play defensive pool and get an advantage with his standard BO. But JD didnt fall for that and actually read his builds perfectly, it can work for both sides, but Flash abused it more and Jaedong did not fall for it. Another thing to consider is that both of them practiced with each other multiple times for Flash's TvZ games, whoever benefited from that, noone knows. But JD was the more prepared player and didn't fall for Flash's builds and feints. You act like the advantage works for one player only while it works for both depends on who uses it better.
Your second argument is definitely true, more games + better win % is always better, but does it tell us who the better player is? JD didnt have games because 1) He was out of OSL 2) His team was actually nice to him for once.
Fact is they had the same time to prepare for their most important series, and JD was the more prepared player.
I think flash was preparing hardcore for the osl finals and then going straight to prepare hardcore for msl finals. That can't have benefited him. Actually you make some good points but im still not convinced and I have to go. Nice talking to you and have a nice day!
On January 25 2010 19:06 StylishVODs wrote: "Flash had 6 days to prepare for the MSL finals + the fact that he played 2 BoXs vZ in the MSL Jaedong had 7 days to prepare for the MSL finals with playing terrans only 3 times on a single map and had to prepare for all 4 maps from scratch"
I think this argument actually benefits jaedong. Jaedong had all flashes cards at hand. Flash didn't know what to prepare for. And we saw the results. All jaedongs BO's was specifically designed to beat flashes and they did.
Your second argument i agree with. But i don't think its enough given the circumstances. I think having to play double ammount of games with equally good winningpercentage is stronger. Jaedong showed he was better prepared that day...
How did it actually benefit Jaedong at all? Flash actually abused that to mind fuck JD by cheesing and 7/8raxing every game and going for sunk busts vs Kwanro/Calm. If anything if you asked anyone, they would reply Flash had the upper hand with that. He forced JD to play defensive pool and get an advantage with his standard BO. But JD didnt fall for that and actually read his builds perfectly, it can work for both sides, but Flash abused it more and Jaedong did not fall for it. Another thing to consider is that both of them practiced with each other multiple times for Flash's TvZ games, whoever benefited from that, noone knows. But JD was the more prepared player and didn't fall for Flash's builds and feints. You act like the advantage works for one player only while it works for both depends on who uses it better.
How did it NOT benefit Jaedong? Conversely, Jaedong played no ZvTs on any of those maps for Flash to study, save for his loss against Flash on Fighting Spirit a month ago. There's a reason he was able to out-prepare Flash and come up with unique builds out of left field for those maps, e.g. re-using a strategy on Match Point proven to scalp games against Flash.
Wow...just wow. I can't believe some people are able to draw conclussion that JD > Flash based solely on the fucked up 3:1 MSL Final (fucked up becase of game 4, I actually believe JD was going to win game 3 anyway).
If something, it along with the 0:2 OSL game showed us how incredibely close these two are and how stupid is calling one of them better than the other right now.
And it that case, for powerranking needs, Flash should be nr. 1 because he DID accomplish more than JD this month.
Next month, with lots of games played in WL, it can be a totally different story.
Flash is a lot better there. -------------------------------------------- In total Flash has dominated this entire season ridiculously hard. Jaedong is miles ahead of everybody else, and that makes the fact that Flash's record outshines Jaedong's that much more impressive. Simply basing the PR on their latest Bo5 doesn't seem fair in my eyes; 1) I don't think anyone considered for instance Calm to be better than Jaedong just because he roflstomped him in their Bo5. There's more to it than that. 2) The power outage that fucked up the entire event. 3) Jaedong could study 30 televised TvZ's with Flash from this season while Jaedong only played 7 ZvT's. 4) Flash had to be the savior of KT in PL winning 2 games in the middle of the week before, whereas Jaedong had the entire week off to prepare. I don't think it's possible to accurately conclude that one player is superior to another by just looking at one clash. There's no denying that Jaedong played better that day, and he did indeed take one step closer to the position as GOAT, but I want to see Flash's magnificent and unique accomplishment of reaching both finals and at the same raping everyone in PL rewarded.
On January 25 2010 20:57 adelarge wrote: And it that case, for powerranking needs, Flash should be nr. 1 because he DID accomplish more than JD this month.
Pfft, what do you seriously think Flash accomplished this month? Hit 2400 Elo multiple times with a 70% lifetime win rate, won his 22nd consecutive TvT for the longest streak ever, passed iloveoov's monstrous TvZ peak Elo rating, won an OSL gold and a MSL silver while winning ace matches for his team in proleague? Lol, whatever. Jaedong dominated him in the most indisputable, uncontroversial way I've ever seen in the best starleague finals of recent memory. In fact, if Jaedong hadn't made any mistakes at all, he'd have won 3-0. Seriously, why are you Flash fanboys so blind to the fact that those MSL finals games told us all we ever needed to know?
On January 25 2010 20:57 adelarge wrote: And it that case, for powerranking needs, Flash should be nr. 1 because he DID accomplish more than JD this month.
Pfft, what do you seriously think Flash accomplished this month? Hit 2400 Elo multiple times with a 70% lifetime win rate, won his 22nd consecutive TvT for the longest streak ever, passed iloveoov's monstrous TvZ peak Elo rating, won an OSL gold and a MSL silver while winning ace matches for his team in proleague? Lol, whatever. Jaedong dominated him in the most indisputable, uncontroversial way I've ever seen in the best starleague finals of recent memory. In fact, if Jaedong hadn't made any mistakes at all, he'd have won 3-0. Seriously, why are you Flash fanboys so blind to the fact that those MSL finals games told us all we ever needed to know?
Are you serious? "If Flash hadn't made any mistakes at all, he'd have won 3-0". My statement has the same relevance as yours. lol.
On January 25 2010 18:48 StylishVODs wrote: Yes i have. I actually only watch jaedong and flash play now because i dont have time to watch everything anymore.
In that regard, I wanna say that Flash has in some way ruined watching SC for me this season. At least when teran is involved.
After watching his games the last couple of months, watching other terrans play just seems shallow. It doesn't matter if they are fighting for the spot of 2nd-best-terran, like Fantasy, Leta, Sea etc.or if they are creative like Upmagic. The perfection Flash showed makes them look like B+ players compared to him. He took terran to a whole new level. I imagine it must have been like this during Oovs peak. In that regard, I wanna say that Flash has in some way ruined watching SC for me this season. At least when teran is involved.
After watching his games the last couple of months, watching other terrans play just seems shallow. It doesn't matter if they are fighting for the spot of 2nd-best-terran, like fantasy, Leta, Sea etc.or if they are creative like UpMaGiC. The perfection Flash showed makes them look like B+ players compared to him. He took terran to a whole new level. I imagine it must have been like this during Oovs peak.
I particularly remember his game against Mind on New Tornado in PL a couple of weeks ago. I thought that Mind played a beautiful and nearly flawless TvT. But FlashJust crushed him, with no particular BO-advantage, it was mind-blowing.
It was kinda like this during Jaedongs zvz reign. Watching zvzs without Jaedong felt kinda useless. But Calm finally put an end to that and other zergs catched up. I wonder if other terrans can catch up to Flash.
And although I don't particularly enjoy him turtling 35 minutes against Best on Match Point, or building 700 depots to secure his half of the map on HBR against Movie, no other terran can do it the way he does it.
On January 26 2010 03:51 vnlegend wrote: JD is #1.
You have to beat the king to become the king, and JD is the KING.
Back to back gold + gold titles, BO5 heads-up victory >> gold + silver.
You make a good argument, but the fact of the matter is that Crazy-Hydra has won every game of his this month. You have to beat the king to become the king, and Crazy-Hydra proved that Jaedong was only a pretender to the throne.
On January 24 2010 22:30 StylishVODs wrote: Jaedong should be nr2. Its really hard taking both titles. Flash almost did it, and had it not been for him playing 1000 games vs zergs recently and jaedongs ability to find weaknesses to his play he might have done it. Game 1 and 4 wasn't really showing any skill from either player and that sadens me abit.
One thing about flash though it didn't seem as he had prepared anything risky/special in the series except for the bunkerrush in game 4 which he had done twice on that map already the last two games. Flash didn't play his normal abusive play and he was punnished for that since jaedong took every advantage he could by doing risky things such as no dronescout and 3hatch before pool etc. I felt almost as flash didn't prepare for this finals and thats really wierd, coz im sure he did. A predicting commentator said: Flash can throw anything at jaedong and he must try to beat it. But flash didn't throw anything at jaedong. It was jaedong who did these builds where flash had to adapt.
With that said, 1 gold + 1 silver when jaedong vs flash is 3-3 in recent games + the fact that flash has broken records left and right and peaked over 2400 elo is surely enough to give flash the first spot. but PR has been hard on flash before, i hope this time its not coz he deseves it.
Flash is not the only one whos been breaking records left and right. Thats why I said the fairest solution would be to award #1 to both players. They showed us this month that both of them are completely on another level than all others. Not even Stork or Bisu are close to them skill-wise.
I also kinda feel that Taek Bang Lee Ssang will soon change into Lee Ssang. Stork and Bisu's peaks are over, Jaedong's might be ending soon too and with SC2 close I pity Flash since he will most likely not have his chance to prove that he could have been the GOTA because he had to face Jaedong during his peak.
I doubt there is anyone who would argue that flash is GOAT skillwise...
Hope this is a joke? People seem to think u can be GOAT for being really dominating 1 or 2 seasons? Well Flash isn't the only who has done that =p
On January 24 2010 22:30 StylishVODs wrote: Jaedong should be nr2. Its really hard taking both titles. Flash almost did it, and had it not been for him playing 1000 games vs zergs recently and jaedongs ability to find weaknesses to his play he might have done it. Game 1 and 4 wasn't really showing any skill from either player and that sadens me abit.
One thing about flash though it didn't seem as he had prepared anything risky/special in the series except for the bunkerrush in game 4 which he had done twice on that map already the last two games. Flash didn't play his normal abusive play and he was punnished for that since jaedong took every advantage he could by doing risky things such as no dronescout and 3hatch before pool etc. I felt almost as flash didn't prepare for this finals and thats really wierd, coz im sure he did. A predicting commentator said: Flash can throw anything at jaedong and he must try to beat it. But flash didn't throw anything at jaedong. It was jaedong who did these builds where flash had to adapt.
With that said, 1 gold + 1 silver when jaedong vs flash is 3-3 in recent games + the fact that flash has broken records left and right and peaked over 2400 elo is surely enough to give flash the first spot. but PR has been hard on flash before, i hope this time its not coz he deseves it.
Flash is not the only one whos been breaking records left and right. Thats why I said the fairest solution would be to award #1 to both players. They showed us this month that both of them are completely on another level than all others. Not even Stork or Bisu are close to them skill-wise.
I also kinda feel that Taek Bang Lee Ssang will soon change into Lee Ssang. Stork and Bisu's peaks are over, Jaedong's might be ending soon too and with SC2 close I pity Flash since he will most likely not have his chance to prove that he could have been the GOTA because he had to face Jaedong during his peak.
I doubt there is anyone who would argue that flash is GOAT skillwise...
Hope this is a joke? People seem to think u can be GOAT for being really dominating 1 or 2 seasons? Well Flash isn't the only who has done that =p
i didnt write anything about domination, just about raw skill, and i do think flash is most skilled progamer ever. Ofcourse, some players can top him in certain areas, like jaedong in mental strenght, but his micro and macro combined are best ever
On January 25 2010 20:57 adelarge wrote: And it that case, for powerranking needs, Flash should be nr. 1 because he DID accomplish more than JD this month.
Pfft, what do you seriously think Flash accomplished this month? Hit 2400 Elo multiple times with a 70% lifetime win rate, won his 22nd consecutive TvT for the longest streak ever, passed iloveoov's monstrous TvZ peak Elo rating, won an OSL gold and a MSL silver while winning ace matches for his team in proleague? Lol, whatever. Jaedong dominated him in the most indisputable, uncontroversial way I've ever seen in the best starleague finals of recent memory. In fact, if Jaedong hadn't made any mistakes at all, he'd have won 3-0. Seriously, why are you Flash fanboys so blind to the fact that those MSL finals games told us all we ever needed to know?
Recognize the sarcasm.
End of thread.
People didn't want to acknowledge Flash as the clearly better player with his 2-0.. I don't think you should really acknowledge Jaedong as the better player with his 3-1 that was marred with a bunch of fucked up circumstances.
Jaedong and Flash are nothing more than 50:50 at the moment and if you take this month into account... Flash did better STILL. The end.
On January 26 2010 09:22 stormguy85 wrote: Am I the only one that feels like this is a stale-mate until the WL match tonight?
Great point. Let's see what happens tonight.
Stork looked good last night; I was worried about him after some of these recent losses but he is playing well, especially considering the maps. He obviously has to drop in power rank, though, because Flash and Jaedong are gonna be in the top two spots. Not sure whether or not someone else should pass Stork...
On January 25 2010 20:57 adelarge wrote: Wow...just wow. I can't believe some people are able to draw conclussion that JD > Flash based solely on the fucked up 3:1 MSL Final (fucked up becase of game 4, I actually believe JD was going to win game 3 anyway).
If something, it along with the 0:2 OSL game showed us how incredibely close these two are and how stupid is calling one of them better than the other right now.
And it that case, for powerranking needs, Flash should be nr. 1 because he DID accomplish more than JD this month.
Next month, with lots of games played in WL, it can be a totally different story.
qft. Flash took out Jaedong in OSL, Jaedong took out Flash in MSL.
I'm glad I agree with some people here, Flash definitely #1 next month. The kid played 100 million TvZs in the past 2 months for JD to go to school off of and has still managed a 3-3 score vs JD in Dec/Jan. I'm not trying to take anything away from JD, without a doubt he is closer to the B word right now than Flash. JD has won 3 straight major finals (Back to back OSL + MSL now) for his 5th career final victory. I think over the past 8 months he's shown B word material. However, since October it's been clear to me that Flash has been putting forward better stuff. If Flash can keep it up for as long as JD has will be his test as a player. We had what, about 3 years without a Bonjwa? It wouldn't surprise me if we're watching 2 right now.
The funny thing to think about is this: if it wasn't for Flash, Jaedong would have won both the MSL and the OSL. And on the flip side: if it wasn't for Jaedong, Flash would have won both the MSL and the OSL.
It's almost a shame we have two overly-amazing players otherwise more history records would be getting broken.
On January 26 2010 13:25 stormguy85 wrote: The funny thing to think about is this: if it wasn't for Flash, Jaedong would have won both the MSL and the OSL. And on the flip side: if it wasn't for Jaedong, Flash would have won both the MSL and the OSL.
It's almost a shame we have two overly-amazing players otherwise more history records would be getting broken.
Ya, they're both really far ahead of all competition. So I'm having a great time (being a fan of both).
On January 26 2010 21:01 Vasoline73 wrote: In before "he forgot consume doesnt count!"
Of course it counts. The number 1 player should not forget consume like that. I think he must've clicked c but he did not have enough min/gas but he thought he had it researching anyway. But.... Does the best ZvT player of all time make the same mistakes that I do o_o?
I don't think we should make a judgement on Flash and Jaedong too much based on their H2H games anyway. All of their games seems really volatile and can end up anywhere between Flash raping Jaedong and Jaedong raping Flash, so they don't really tell us too much about who is the superior player. Flash should be No1 anyway regardless of todays results because he has had a much better overall season. Not that the 4-3 H2H lead is a bad thing :D , but I don't think it makes a big difference. Flash No1.
So between both Oz vs KT and MBC vs Hite (that's 13 games) there was only one Protoss appearance. Not even while terrans are pwning around, they just send other terrans or zergs.
On January 26 2010 21:53 Salteador Neo wrote: So between both Oz vs KT and MBC vs Hite (that's 13 games) there was only one Protoss appearance. Not even while terrans are pwning around, they just send other terrans or zergs.
And that protoss lost his game.
Protoss is so ez race lol.
Oz, MBC and Hite. Those teams would never send out protoss if they didnt have to.
On January 26 2010 21:01 Vasoline73 wrote: In before "he forgot consume doesnt count!"
This is true, but then Flash fans need to stop with the stupd "he just made a mistake and lost" arguments for MSL Game 1.
You know what, I've read through most of those MSL threads, and I don't remember seeing this one more than once. Saw a few dozen, "Damn, Jaedong would've dominated Flash 3-0 if not for those guardians" though.
On January 26 2010 21:01 Vasoline73 wrote: In before "he forgot consume doesnt count!"
This is true, but then Flash fans need to stop with the stupd "he just made a mistake and lost" arguments for MSL Game 1.
Ok then..
- At set 1, your heater wasn't there ▲ At the first game my hands were near frozen. I was so nervous and my cold hands made me lose set 1 in a disappointing fashion. So my only choice was to get a heater as soon as possible.
How about his hands were froze and so he lost argument?
- At set 1, your heater wasn't there ▲ At the first game my hands were near frozen. I was so nervous and my cold hands made me lose set 1 in a disappointing fashion. So my only choice was to get a heater as soon as possible.
How about his hands were froze and so he lost argument?
They must have been freezing flash's hands and warming jaedong's hands right?
On January 26 2010 21:53 Salteador Neo wrote: So between both Oz vs KT and MBC vs Hite (that's 13 games) there was only one Protoss appearance. Not even while terrans are pwning around, they just send other terrans or zergs.
And that protoss lost his game.
Protoss is so ez race lol.
Oz, MBC and Hite. Those teams would never send out protoss if they didnt have to.
Pretty much this. What happened to our beloved BackHo? RIP.
On January 26 2010 21:53 Salteador Neo wrote: So between both Oz vs KT and MBC vs Hite (that's 13 games) there was only one Protoss appearance. Not even while terrans are pwning around, they just send other terrans or zergs.
And that protoss lost his game.
Protoss is so ez race lol.
Oz, MBC and Hite. Those teams would never send out protoss if they didnt have to.
AHAHAHHA BETWEEN THEM ALL THE BEST P IS... HORANG2??
To choose between Flash and Jaedong, you have to look at how their matchups compare first.
Their "easy" matchups (TvZ and ZvP): Both are pretty much untouchable in these matchups. The only Zerg who isn't a huge underdog against Flash is Jaedong while the only Protoss who isn't a huge underdog against JD is, well, actually pretty much every protoss is a huge underdog against JD. Because of that I give JD the slight edge in this category.
Their mirror matchups: Flash has an edge here. Even taking into consideration Flash's one loss and the volatility of ZvZ, JD doesn't look as strong in his mirror as Flash does in his.
Their "hard" matchups (TvP and ZvT): Both players are actually heavy favorites in this matchup against any opponent as well, with the exception of Flash for JD and possibly Stork for Flash. Flash looks slightly stronger than JD in this one but there's a good chance that has more to do with there not being any "perfect protoss" right now to give Flash the headaches he gives JD (that probably applies to what I said about how they compare in their easy matchups as well).
I also give JD bonus points for the fact that he is at least a match for Flash head to head, despite it being JD's hard matchup and Flash's easy one.
For the record I am a Jaedong fan and would like to see him take the number one spot. He is certainly a hair's breadth away from Flash now and there's a clear gap between them and everyone else.
All things considered, it looks pretty damn close. I would therefore give Flash the number one spot just because of how many more games he's played than JD this month.
Besides, Jaedong didn't want his good friend and occassional practice partner Flash to go into a slump after the disastrous MSL, so he acted like he missed consume. He told me in a secret phone call.
On January 27 2010 06:52 Vasoline73 wrote: The question for me is "Will Bisu even get CBNC this month?"
has he done anything in the last 2 months?
Well despite his losses in his last 2 games he still got the 3rd best winrate in PL of everyone who`s played more than a few games (and the 3rd best ELO). Tho I have to agree its not easy being a Bisu fan these days
He should start winning more again in Winners League and hopefully do better in the next SL seasons. I still believe since there really is not a big decline in his over all skill or anything, yeah hes playing a bit more sloppy and doing a few more mistakes (like losing his shuttle like a retard vs Gumchi) but these seems like minor things that he can easily fix in his game play and return to being the best Toss and a Starleague contender again. Most of his losses the last few months he have gotten into BO disadvantages and failed to overcome them, maybe the old Bisu would have been able to still win, but I am not so sure. I still believe he will return in top shape for BSL!
I have to agree with your Oystein. As a fan of his it is hard, because I think hes playing at relatively high level, but just losing games to some dumb mistakes like you said. However, professional starcraft games these days are decided by such a slim margin, he cant afford to not make dumb mistakes. I'm hoping for a WL season and hopes he makes a run in at least one starleague.
I've consistently been one of Bisu's most annoying anti-fans, cheering his every loss back when SKT1 was the PL-winning powerhouse last season.
But it's not fun anymore. Like kicking someone while they're down.
So I'm going to have to cheer for Bisu to get awesome again, so that I can go back to cheering against him. It's no fun to be an anti-fan of him if he's not doing well.
I KNOW he's one of the strongest players, but he hasn't really done much to show it lately. Since last PR, he's gone 2-2, winning against Action and Guemchi, losing against firebathero and Hogil. Not much to go on.
On January 27 2010 07:29 WWJDD wrote: Well. Jaedong, just won a Starleague while dropping a solitary game. Who else has done that before? Anyone?? Buehler?? Buehler??
Well, Flash won the GOM season 3 in the exact some fashion. Funily enough, the only game he lost there was also the first game of the finals. I know GOM isn't MSL, but still .
edit: damn, I've just realized JD lost his second game in MSL finals. The 0:1 -> 3:1 pattern got me.
On January 27 2010 07:29 WWJDD wrote: Well. Jaedong, just won a Starleague while dropping a solitary game. Who else has done that before? Anyone?? Buehler?? Buehler??
Yeah, except that when JD was beating up FireFist and Stats, Flash had to face one of the best ZvT (Zero) and PvT (Best). Kal/Kwanro were about even in terms of quality-of-opponents, with Kal being slightly higher. Admittedly, Best played like crap against, but so did Kal against JD.
It was a nice run, though, regardless of the calibre of his opponents.
On January 26 2010 21:53 Salteador Neo wrote: So between both Oz vs KT and MBC vs Hite (that's 13 games) there was only one Protoss appearance. Not even while terrans are pwning around, they just send other terrans or zergs.
On January 27 2010 16:33 okum wrote: It turns out that all the other green guys on the PR are false prophets (except Stork) and that Guemchi is the real deal.
So any predictions for the bottom 8? I suspect both Really and Leta could make an appearance.
On January 27 2010 09:02 Hinanawi wrote: I've consistently been one of Bisu's most annoying anti-fans, cheering his every loss back when SKT1 was the PL-winning powerhouse last season.
But it's not fun anymore. Like kicking someone while they're down.
So I'm going to have to cheer for Bisu to get awesome again, so that I can go back to cheering against him. It's no fun to be an anti-fan of him if he's not doing well.
I KNOW he's one of the strongest players, but he hasn't really done much to show it lately. Since last PR, he's gone 2-2, winning against Action and Guemchi, losing against firebathero and Hogil. Not much to go on.
I agree, I hope Bisu starts raping again. Its no fun being an anti fan with this situation.
On January 27 2010 19:13 Jaksiel wrote: I dunno what you two are talking about, as a Bisu anti-fan I still enjoy every loss.
Agreed, they are not true anti-fans. Seeing Bisu getting knocked out of MSL by Bogus was hilarious. Seeing him lose to Cuteangel made me all warm and fuzzy inside. However, nothing beats seeing him getting beaten by FBH's TvP! XD I laughed so hard when I watched that game.
It seems to me like Bisu loses to a lot of aggressive builds. He should try that thing called scouting.
I don't enjoy Bisu's losses much anymore (indeed, it's like kicking someone while they're down), but I very much enjoyed FBH's domination of Bisu. This has more to do with FBH than Bisu.
1. Flash - NO GAIN - Flash played brilliantly in both his OSL finals. A minor slip up in the MSL finals (game 3) is what I believe cost him the title. He DID however go on to roll Jaedong in WL just a few days later so.. Lets just leave Flash and Jaedong where they are. They split even games with Flash looking just a slight bit stronger.
2. Jaedong - UP - The Dong stops Flash's reign of terror over both SL's with a dominating display of mutal micro in game one and a somewhat brilliant defense in game 4. Game 3 was awarded to him (albeit to some controversy) but one must admit, Jaedong played an inspiring and beautiful game. (It was on odd-eye.. c'mon)
3. Stork - DOWN - The only thing keeping him in the number 2 spot in the last PR was his dominating PL winrate. Jaedong just showed a higher level of play than Stork and kicks him down a spot.
4. Really - UP - When is this man going to get some recognition? He's on a 10 game TvP streak, and the first eSTRO player to go over the 50% winrate. He's a monster in PL and got a double kill in the WL game vs ACE. This kid is on fire.
On January 28 2010 08:38 DreaM)XeRO wrote: 1. Flash - NO GAIN - Flash played brilliantly in both his OSL finals. A minor slip up in the MSL finals (game 3) is what I believe cost him the title. He DID however go on to roll Jaedong in WL just a few days later so..
He didn't really roll Jaedong. Jaedong rolled Flash and then, sadly, proceeded to hyuk himself something fierce =/
Not saying Flash' shouldn't be #1 though, he definitely should.
Sea does not deserve #5, that's really stupid fanboyism and he's lucky to be on the PR at all. There are other players who both do well in PL and individual leagues and they all deserve to be ahead of Sea. Zero, Kal, Movie, Bisu, Stork, Jaedong, Flash, and Kwanro are unquestionably above Sea in value right now. Really is probably up there, too.
1. Flash (17-7) The OSL winner. Flash played 10 more games than Jaedong and made 2 starleague finals so he gets 1. 2. Jaedong (11-3) The MSL winner who beat the OSL winner. Beat Flash convincingly in the MSL. Not sure what would have happened in game 4 without the power outage but he outplayed Flash in games 1 and 3. Forgetting consume is silly >.<
(Gap)
3. Kwanro (8-4; win over Light) Without Flash in the picture he’s 7-1. Also during his games against Flash, he didn’t look too bad. If he hadn’t gone guardian in 2 games, they probably would have been a lot closer. Kwanro needs some respect lol. 4. Calm (5-5; wins over Violet, RorO) Like Kwanro, he record would be pretty good if Flash didn’t exist seeing as he lost to him 4 times this month. No reason to think his game has dropped. 5. Really (7-2; wins over Mind, fantasy, Flash) Really, an eSTRO Terran? Really has been destroying a bunch of high caliber players, including breaking Flash’s monster TvT streak, and becomes the first eSTRO player to achieve what was though impossible for the team…a 50% overall win rate. 6. Leta (7-1; wins over EffOrt, fantasy, Light) Leta has been quietly destroying proleague this month. Hopefully this will translate into individual leagues eventually. 7. fantasy (5-3; wins over JangBi, ZerO, Sea) fantasy managed to beat one of the best ZvT, one of the best PvT, and one of the best TvT. His Only losses are to Really and Leta, who are both higher than him. 8. ZerO (5-3; wins over HiyA, Best) ZerO has been playing solid, but the players he won against aren’t exactly known for their vZ. 9. Stork (3-3; win over fantasy) Stork hasn’t done too well, but maintains a low spot because the people he lost to is nothing to be ashamed about. 2 of those were HiyA and Flash, who are known for there TvP. However, Stork better do better next month. 10. Kal (6-7; wins over Hwasin, RorO) Yes, Kal has a losing record, but 4 of those losses were to JD so I can’t fault him too much for that. Like Stork, he has to perform better next month if he wants to remain on the PR.
CBNC free (4-1; win over EffOrt) sKyHigh (4-2; wins over Sea, Light, Really) Wins over really good TvT players is a good start. HiyA (7-3; wins over Violet, Stork, JangBi) HiyA has a good record but has to prove he can take out top programers who aren’t Protoss. Sea (2-2; win over Leta) Sea lost 2 games in his best match up. Hopefully he can turn this around.
Some of the lower ranks of the PR could be switched with some of those in CBNC. 3-10 were pretty hard to rank lol.
edit: Movie (5-8; wins against Shine, Flash) Kal and Movie are similar in that they haven't been doing too well after individual leagues. Kal may have lost to JD slightly more horribly (I didn't think games 2 and 3 were that bad) than Movie lost to Flash, but he still has a losing record after discounting his games with Flash. I guess losing to 72% ZvP HoGiL is fine, but not hyvaa and GuemChi, even if he is a bonjwa. I didn't see his game against UpMaGiC so I don't know whether he pulled something crazy that game. So I guess Movie can be added to CBNC imo just for being an OSL finalist.
I hope it's made clear just how huge the gap between (Flash/JD) and everybody else is right now. Those two are are balanced on a razor's edge, but nobody else is even remotely close to them.
On January 28 2010 13:42 Hinanawi wrote: I hope it's made clear just how huge the gap between (Flash/JD) and everybody else is right now. Those two are are balanced on a razor's edge, but nobody else is even remotely close to them.
yeah, if the PR was fair JD/Flash would be in all ten spots
After the horrible discrimination of Calm last month i wouldn't mind seeing him up the power rank at least above Sea , Kwanro , Zero , shine but perhaps not above Movie and Stork not that i think anyone has done anything note wordy this month .
There have been good perfomances from players like , leta , really , hiya ...... and alot more but i have no idea how to rank them ....
I can agree with flash being above jaedong for purely results, but its kind of hard to deny that jaedong is the better player with the way their games have turned out.
On January 28 2010 23:21 Little-Chimp wrote: I can agree with flash being above jaedong for purely results, but its kind of hard to deny that jaedong is the better player with the way their games have turned out.
You can't really base whos the better player out of their recent games imo.
On January 28 2010 10:57 TwoToneTerran wrote: Why would Bisu get back on the list for going 2-2 against mediocre opponents?
Because he never should have been off the list. He could conceivably be at a low spot but he's got the #3 proleague record and is still one of the best players in the game by an objective record. Look at the list of players and tell me who you would bet on in a best of 5 between Bisu and virtually any other player - there's maybe 3-4 names where you would bet against Bisu, and that's it.
And I don't even really like Bisu.
On January 28 2010 11:05 okum wrote: And what did Kal do to jump from #10 to #4, apart from going 0-4 against Jaedong?
Kal probably should have been #4 or 5 last month, and you're right he shouldn't be 4 this month, but he's played better overall in the last 2 months than a lot of the names people are ranking above him. He's current acting ACE on the #1 team from last round of PL, has a great record vs non-JD opponents, made the MSL semis, and is generally playing great overall SC.
On January 26 2010 21:53 Salteador Neo wrote: So between both Oz vs KT and MBC vs Hite (that's 13 games) there was only one Protoss appearance. Not even while terrans are pwning around, they just send other terrans or zergs.
On January 28 2010 10:57 TwoToneTerran wrote: Why would Bisu get back on the list for going 2-2 against mediocre opponents?
Because he never should have been off the list. He could conceivably be at a low spot but he's got the #3 proleague record and is still one of the best players in the game by an objective record. Look at the list of players and tell me who you would bet on in a best of 5 between Bisu and virtually any other player - there's maybe 3-4 names where you would bet against Bisu, and that's it.
And I don't even really like Bisu.
Bisu hasn't played WELL in quite a while - the only reason his drop off the PR was so jarring is that he gained ground despite having a worse month in November than he did in December. He failed to make a Ro8 appearance in either starleague this season, and most of his losses are to players he had no business losing to - Firebathero, CuteAngel, Bogus, Guemchi, and Haksoo. He was underplaced slightly, and Sea was likewise slightly overplaced, but honestly? Flash and Violet are a far more acceptable pair of losses than Guemchi and Bogus.
Bisu simply doesn't deserve to gain ground against similar-skilled players until he stops dropping half of his games to far weaker players while dropping out of starleagues early. I know it's a slanted point of view as an anti-fan, but he simply did not provide the quality of game (or the results) of any of the players on this month's power ranking, and nothing's really changed with him. If he gets back on, it will be because of fewer players clamoring for results, and that doesn't seem to be the case.
1. Flash (17-7) The OSL winner. Flash played 10 more games than Jaedong and made 2 starleague finals so he gets 1. 2. Jaedong (11-3) The MSL winner who beat the OSL winner. Beat Flash convincingly in the MSL. Not sure what would have happened in game 4 without the power outage but he outplayed Flash in games 1 and 3. Forgetting consume is silly >.<
(Gap)
3. Kwanro (8-4; win over Light) Without Flash in the picture he’s 7-1. Also during his games against Flash, he didn’t look too bad. If he hadn’t gone guardian in 2 games, they probably would have been a lot closer. Kwanro needs some respect lol. 4. Calm (5-5; wins over Violet, RorO) Like Kwanro, he record would be pretty good if Flash didn’t exist seeing as he lost to him 4 times this month. No reason to think his game has dropped. 5. Really (7-2; wins over Mind, fantasy, Flash) Really, an eSTRO Terran? Really has been destroying a bunch of high caliber players, including breaking Flash’s monster TvT streak, and becomes the first eSTRO player to achieve what was though impossible for the team…a 50% overall win rate. 6. Leta (7-1; wins over EffOrt, fantasy, Light) Leta has been quietly destroying proleague this month. Hopefully this will translate into individual leagues eventually. 7. fantasy (5-3; wins over JangBi, ZerO, Sea) fantasy managed to beat one of the best ZvT, one of the best PvT, and one of the best TvT. His Only losses are to Really and Leta, who are both higher than him. 8. ZerO (5-3; wins over HiyA, Best) ZerO has been playing solid, but the players he won against aren’t exactly known for their vZ. 9. Stork (3-3; win over fantasy) Stork hasn’t done too well, but maintains a low spot because the people he lost to is nothing to be ashamed about. 2 of those were HiyA and Flash, who are known for there TvP. However, Stork better do better next month. 10. Kal (6-7; wins over Hwasin, RorO) Yes, Kal has a losing record, but 4 of those losses were to JD so I can’t fault him too much for that. Like Stork, he has to perform better next month if he wants to remain on the PR.
CBNC free (4-1; win over EffOrt) sKyHigh (4-2; wins over Sea, Light, Really) Wins over really good TvT players is a good start. HiyA (7-3; wins over Violet, Stork, JangBi) HiyA has a good record but has to prove he can take out top programers who aren’t Protoss. Sea (2-2; win over Leta) Sea lost 2 games in his best match up. Hopefully he can turn this around.
Some of the lower ranks of the PR could be switched with some of those in CBNC. 3-10 were pretty hard to rank lol.
Where is Movie? He certainly deserves a low spot I think, more than Kal does in any case. Kal failed horribly against Jaedong, loosing in poor fashion. Flash vs. Movie may have been analagous to a bulldozer trying to kill a racoon, but at least movie made it entertaining.
I can agree with flash being above jaedong for purely results, but its kind of hard to deny that jaedong is the better player with the way their games have turned out.
On January 28 2010 23:21 Little-Chimp wrote: I can agree with flash being above jaedong for purely results, but its kind of hard to deny that jaedong is the better player with the way their games have turned out.
I deny it.
Flash has the winning record, and they've traded dominating games and close games. That's about it.
On January 28 2010 23:21 Little-Chimp wrote: I can agree with flash being above jaedong for purely results, but its kind of hard to deny that jaedong is the better player with the way their games have turned out.
I deny it.
Flash has the winning record, and they've traded dominating games and close games. That's about it.
lol one of those games flash cheesed and the other jaedong was raping flash then was a dumbass and forgot consume. He still beat flash where it counted, the msl finals.
On January 29 2010 07:54 Little-Chimp wrote: lol one of those games flash cheesed and the other jaedong was raping flash then was a dumbass and forgot consume. He still beat flash where it counted, the msl finals.
Flash lost the game he cheesed, so I don't see what that has to do with your argument.
He won with an awesome dropship play in one game, and you don't know how the other recent WL game would have ended if JD hadn't forgotten consume, Flash still could have won. Just like you don't know if Flash would have 7raxed in MSL Game 4 if not for his team and parents going berserk. We just don't know.
At the end of the day, they're (Flash)4-3(Jaedong) in recent games, Flash won OSL, Jaedong won MSL. Neither is 'raping' the other, you're a fool if you think they are.
Think of it this way: Everyone on TL gets one betting ticket that they can place on Flash or Jaedong for a game they're playing tomorrow. If their guy wins, they get $10,000. If their guy loses, they get nothing. This is enough money so that people should bet on who they truly think would win, and not just their personal favorite.
Don't you think it would be a pretty close spread of who gets bet on? I think it would be pretty close to 50:50 in terms of who gets bet on.
On January 29 2010 07:54 Little-Chimp wrote: lol one of those games flash cheesed and the other jaedong was raping flash then was a dumbass and forgot consume. He still beat flash where it counted, the msl finals.
ALL OF JAEDONG'S WINS ARE AWESOME AND FLASH'S ARE STUPID AND DON'T COUNT
On January 29 2010 07:54 Little-Chimp wrote: lol one of those games flash cheesed and the other jaedong was raping flash then was a dumbass and forgot consume. He still beat flash where it counted, the msl finals.
lol no
OSL games - Flash raped Jaedong two times. Seriously, those games weren't even close. Flash there ultimately demonstrated that he is the superior player and will be forever and ever and even some time after that.
MSL games - In the first Flash was a dumbass and forgot turrets, had he make some, he would easily won. In the second he raped JD again. In the third, he has the decisive advantage so the bribed MBC cut down the eletricity and bribed KESPA give the win to JD. In game four, Flash again outplayed Jaedong, but made some mistake...I'm not sure which, but that's not important, important thing is, Flash would have won if he didn't do it!
KT vs OZ ace game - Flash managed to outplay JD and win despite being in big BO disadvantage and having some bad luck (irradiating almost dead muta).
All that also happened on terribly Z>>T maps, don't let the stats fool you!
Flash is still number one, but Jaedong closed the gap considerably from last month when Flash looked like he was going to pull away with two titles and become the new bonjwa.
On January 29 2010 07:54 Little-Chimp wrote: lol one of those games flash cheesed and the other jaedong was raping flash then was a dumbass and forgot consume. He still beat flash where it counted, the msl finals.
Flash lost the game he cheesed, so I don't see what that has to do with your argument.
He won with an awesome dropship play in one game, and you don't know how the other recent WL game would have ended if JD hadn't forgotten consume, Flash still could have won. Just like you don't know if Flash would have 7raxed in MSL Game 4 if not for his team and parents going berserk. We just don't know.
At the end of the day, they're (Flash)4-3(Jaedong) in recent games, Flash won OSL, Jaedong won MSL. Neither is 'raping' the other, you're a fool if you think they are.
Think of it this way: Everyone on TL gets one betting ticket that they can place on Flash or Jaedong for a game they're playing tomorrow. If their guy wins, they get $10,000. If their guy loses, they get nothing. This is enough money so that people should bet on who they truly think would win, and not just their personal favorite.
Don't you think it would be a pretty close spread of who gets bet on? I think it would be pretty close to 50:50 in terms of who gets bet on.
I meant game 2 of the OSL bo3, the bunker rush on heartbreak ridge. I just think you guys are really underplaying a Bo5 in the finals of a starleague.
You're kind of underplaying the fact that the series was in shitty conditions with a damn power outage in the third game. Flash has a winning record against Jaedong this season, they've both beat each other in starleagues -- not without controversy -- and their skill difference is so miniscule that slight mistakes mean one sided games that appear to be rape.
Neither is a lot better than the other. Hell, I doubt either is better than the other at all, it's almost entirely situation.
On January 29 2010 07:54 Little-Chimp wrote: lol one of those games flash cheesed and the other jaedong was raping flash then was a dumbass and forgot consume. He still beat flash where it counted, the msl finals.
lol no
OSL games - Flash raped Jaedong two times. Seriously, those games weren't even close. Flash there ultimately demonstrated that he is the superior player and will be forever and ever and even some time after that.
MSL games - In the first Flash was a dumbass and forgot turrets, had he make some, he would easily won. In the second he raped JD again. In the third, he has the decisive advantage so the bribed MBC cut down the eletricity and bribed KESPA give the win to JD. In game four, Flash again outplayed Jaedong, but made some mistake...I'm not sure which, but that's not important, important thing is, Flash would have won if he didn't do it!
KT vs OZ ace game - Flash managed to outplay JD and win despite being in big BO disadvantage and having some bad luck (irradiating almost dead muta).
All that also happened on terribly Z>>T maps, don't let the stats fool you!
Worst troll ever?
Flash got outplayed in the MSL. Get over yourself. JD has always had Flash's number in Bo5's and in longer, more standard games. Yes the decision was unfair to Flash, but that doesn't change the fact that JD came in more prepared.
I'm a JD fan, but get real. I do see logic in keeping Flash at no. 1 because of an OSL gold, an MSL silver, and his continued domination of everyone who isn't Jaedong.
JD is the best player in the world right now and should be #1.
but like so many other PRs he's going to have to settle for #2 because some other player has gotten more wins in the month. JD has way too few PR #1s for his career.
On January 29 2010 07:54 Little-Chimp wrote: lol one of those games flash cheesed and the other jaedong was raping flash then was a dumbass and forgot consume. He still beat flash where it counted, the msl finals.
lol no
OSL games - Flash raped Jaedong two times. Seriously, those games weren't even close. Flash there ultimately demonstrated that he is the superior player and will be forever and ever and even some time after that.
MSL games - In the first Flash was a dumbass and forgot turrets, had he make some, he would easily won. In the second he raped JD again. In the third, he has the decisive advantage so the bribed MBC cut down the eletricity and bribed KESPA give the win to JD. In game four, Flash again outplayed Jaedong, but made some mistake...I'm not sure which, but that's not important, important thing is, Flash would have won if he didn't do it!
KT vs OZ ace game - Flash managed to outplay JD and win despite being in big BO disadvantage and having some bad luck (irradiating almost dead muta).
All that also happened on terribly Z>>T maps, don't let the stats fool you!
Worst troll ever?
Flash got outplayed in the MSL. Get over yourself. JD has always had Flash's number in Bo5's and in longer, more standard games. Yes the decision was unfair to Flash, but that doesn't change the fact that JD came in more prepared.
I'm a JD fan, but get real. I do see logic in keeping Flash at no. 1 because of an OSL gold, an MSL silver, and his continued domination of everyone who isn't Jaedong.
You think this is trolling? It was just a very timid attempt to mirror hundreds and hundreds of post from the less rational and objective part of JD fanbase. These guys are much better when it comes to inventing excuses why JD lost and why he is still the best player ever. Nothing against JD himself or the majority of his fanbase, there are some really lovable people. They are just not so vocal usually.
If you are interested in my real opinion, I stated it here couple of days before and I still stand by it.
On January 25 2010 20:57 adelarge wrote: Wow...just wow. I can't believe some people are able to draw conclussion that JD > Flash based solely on the fucked up 3:1 MSL Final (fucked up becase of game 4, I actually believe JD was going to win game 3 anyway).
If something, it along with the 0:2 OSL game showed us how incredibely close these two are and how stupid is calling one of them better than the other right now.
And it that case, for powerranking needs, Flash should be nr. 1 because he DID accomplish more than JD this month.
Next month, with lots of games played in WL, it can be a totally different story.
On January 29 2010 07:54 Little-Chimp wrote: lol one of those games flash cheesed and the other jaedong was raping flash then was a dumbass and forgot consume. He still beat flash where it counted, the msl finals.
lol no
OSL games - Flash raped Jaedong two times. Seriously, those games weren't even close. Flash there ultimately demonstrated that he is the superior player and will be forever and ever and even some time after that.
MSL games - In the first Flash was a dumbass and forgot turrets, had he make some, he would easily won. In the second he raped JD again. In the third, he has the decisive advantage so the bribed MBC cut down the eletricity and bribed KESPA give the win to JD. In game four, Flash again outplayed Jaedong, but made some mistake...I'm not sure which, but that's not important, important thing is, Flash would have won if he didn't do it!
KT vs OZ ace game - Flash managed to outplay JD and win despite being in big BO disadvantage and having some bad luck (irradiating almost dead muta).
All that also happened on terribly Z>>T maps, don't let the stats fool you!
Worst troll ever?
Flash got outplayed in the MSL. Get over yourself. JD has always had Flash's number in Bo5's and in longer, more standard games. Yes the decision was unfair to Flash, but that doesn't change the fact that JD came in more prepared.
I'm a JD fan, but get real. I do see logic in keeping Flash at no. 1 because of an OSL gold, an MSL silver, and his continued domination of everyone who isn't Jaedong.
You think this is trolling? It was just a very timid attempt to mirror hundreds and hundreds of post from the less rational and objective part of JD fanbase. These guys are much better when it comes to inventing excuses why JD lost and why he is still the best player ever. Nothing against JD himself or the majority of his fanbase, there are some really lovable people. They are just not so vocal usually.
If you are interested in my real opinion, I stated it here couple of days before and I still stand by it.
On January 25 2010 20:57 adelarge wrote: Wow...just wow. I can't believe some people are able to draw conclussion that JD > Flash based solely on the fucked up 3:1 MSL Final (fucked up becase of game 4, I actually believe JD was going to win game 3 anyway).
If something, it along with the 0:2 OSL game showed us how incredibely close these two are and how stupid is calling one of them better than the other right now.
And it that case, for powerranking needs, Flash should be nr. 1 because he DID accomplish more than JD this month.
Next month, with lots of games played in WL, it can be a totally different story.
Self-quoting = worst troll ever? Not sure but close.
On January 26 2010 21:01 Vasoline73 wrote: In before "he forgot consume doesnt count!"
This is true, but then Flash fans need to stop with the stupd "he just made a mistake and lost" arguments for MSL Game 1.
You know what, I've read through most of those MSL threads, and I don't remember seeing this one more than once. Saw a few dozen, "Damn, Jaedong would've dominated Flash 3-0 if not for those guardians" though.
On January 29 2010 07:54 Little-Chimp wrote: lol one of those games flash cheesed and the other jaedong was raping flash then was a dumbass and forgot consume. He still beat flash where it counted, the msl finals.
lol no
OSL games - Flash raped Jaedong two times. Seriously, those games weren't even close. Flash there ultimately demonstrated that he is the superior player and will be forever and ever and even some time after that.
MSL games - In the first Flash was a dumbass and forgot turrets, had he make some, he would easily won. In the second he raped JD again. In the third, he has the decisive advantage so the bribed MBC cut down the eletricity and bribed KESPA give the win to JD. In game four, Flash again outplayed Jaedong, but made some mistake...I'm not sure which, but that's not important, important thing is, Flash would have won if he didn't do it!
KT vs OZ ace game - Flash managed to outplay JD and win despite being in big BO disadvantage and having some bad luck (irradiating almost dead muta).
All that also happened on terribly Z>>T maps, don't let the stats fool you!
On January 26 2010 22:05 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:
On January 26 2010 21:14 LucasWoJ wrote:
On January 26 2010 21:01 Vasoline73 wrote: In before "he forgot consume doesnt count!"
This is true, but then Flash fans need to stop with the stupd "he just made a mistake and lost" arguments for MSL Game 1.
You know what, I've read through most of those MSL threads, and I don't remember seeing this one more than once. Saw a few dozen, "Damn, Jaedong would've dominated Flash 3-0 if not for those guardians" though.
On January 29 2010 07:54 Little-Chimp wrote: lol one of those games flash cheesed and the other jaedong was raping flash then was a dumbass and forgot consume. He still beat flash where it counted, the msl finals.
lol no
OSL games - Flash raped Jaedong two times. Seriously, those games weren't even close. Flash there ultimately demonstrated that he is the superior player and will be forever and ever and even some time after that.
MSL games - In the first Flash was a dumbass and forgot turrets, had he make some, he would easily won. In the second he raped JD again. In the third, he has the decisive advantage so the bribed MBC cut down the eletricity and bribed KESPA give the win to JD. In game four, Flash again outplayed Jaedong, but made some mistake...I'm not sure which, but that's not important, important thing is, Flash would have won if he didn't do it!
KT vs OZ ace game - Flash managed to outplay JD and win despite being in big BO disadvantage and having some bad luck (irradiating almost dead muta).
All that also happened on terribly Z>>T maps, don't let the stats fool you!
Was that quote intended to be disproof of my statement? Choosing to quote something that is obviously sardonic (as the author even explains five posts before yours) and that was also posted three days after mine struck you as the most scathing rebuttal you could find? I'm sure you can do better than that, but then again, I'm uncertain if you were being serious. Not to mention it completely misses the point of my post...
Edit: Back on topic. Next month's Power Rank is going to be really difficult aside from the top 3 spots. GuemChi, Flash, and Jaedong are all a lock, but most everybody else has been under-performing.
I would like to point out that Flash deserves to be #1 because he has been more dominant in the leagues . Skill wise both Jaedong and Flash are on the same level as the MSL showed . You shouldn't really take away from Jaedong's win in game 3 and 4 . Kespa made the right decision Jaedong was ahead 2 bases and Flash was mining out in his natural even Artosis pointed out that Flash wasn't going to make a comeback at that point not against a player of Jaedongs caliber when you are that behind .Game 4 should actually be punishing away more Flash then Jaedong because Flash choked after they gave the win to Jaedong . Here everyone is like Jaedong doesn't deserve his title or his title is not legit which is complete bullshit . Flash didn't have the mentality to overcome the loss in game 3 why did he deserve to win the title ? and it's not like Jaedong wasn't ahead even if Kespa kinda fucked up and lied to Flash that they have replays ? Flash didn't deserve to win because he choked after a decision that he should have expected .
And also people shouldn't jump quick on the Guemchi bandwagon i don't think he deserves more then #10 maybe 9 place if he deserves a place at all , because there are lot a people who have played brilliantly in PL the whole month .
On January 29 2010 17:29 InFdude wrote: Skill wise Jaedong is way better .But let flash have next month he won in WL . His dominance is comming to an end . If you look at the time line flash went from unbeatable to some times loosing a game (some random flukes ) .At the finals many people said he'd 3/0 Jaedong and atm it's like ''they are on the same lvl '' .After 1 month when all the terrans pick up the macro like crazy style he'll just be one of the many . Let him enjoy his 5 minutes of fame.
On January 29 2010 11:50 Ideas wrote: JD is the best player in the world right now and should be #1.
but like so many other PRs he's going to have to settle for #2 because some other player has gotten more wins in the month. JD has way too few PR #1s for his career.
The fanboyism by both sides is just getting silly. I admit I am a JD fan, but that shouldn't stop me from being just a little objective. There's nothing wrong with being a fan, but it's obvious most of you know nothing about strategy or much about progaming in general.
The way I see it: - Nobody else is even close to these 2 right now. - JD is the favorite in a Bo5 against anyone. - Flash deserves #1 based on results.
On January 29 2010 08:45 NovaTheFeared wrote: Flash is still number one, but Jaedong closed the gap considerably from last month when Flash looked like he was going to pull away with two titles and become the new bonjwa.
This!
On January 29 2010 19:05 LxRogue wrote: The way I see it: - Nobody else is even close to these 2 right now. - JD is the favorite in a Bo5 against anyone. - Flash deserves #1 based on results.
1 + 3 are correct but I don't think anyone is a favorite if the 2 play heads-up. They played 7 games in 3 encounters in MSL, OSL and Winner's League. FlaSh won two times, Jaedong won one time but the more important one. The total score is 4-3 in favor of FlaSh. And basically in every game except OSL G1 (FlaSh won straight) and MSL G1 (Jaedong won straight) you can argue that it was luck and unfair if you are a fanboy.
MSL G2: FlaSh cheesed, doesn't count really OSL G2: Jaedong was ahead and FlaSh had a lucky dropship that did way more damage than it should OSL G3: MBC screwed FlaSh OSL G4: FlaSh was mentally down from getting screwed WL: Jaedong forgot Consume, otherwise he would have won
So every Jaedong Fanboy can argue that Jaedong is better than FlaSh and every FlaSh fanboy can argue that FlaSh is better than Jaedong. You just have to ignore the aguments for the other. Fact is, they are absolutely and totally on one level and based on results FlaSh has to get #1 in February ranking closely followed by Jaedong on #2 and an absurdly large gap to #3.
On January 29 2010 19:05 LxRogue wrote: The fanboyism by both sides is just getting silly. I admit I am a JD fan, but that shouldn't stop me from being just a little objective. There's nothing wrong with being a fan, but it's obvious most of you know nothing about strategy or much about progaming in general.
The way I see it: - Nobody else is even close to these 2 right now. - JD is the favorite in a Bo5 against anyone. - Flash deserves #1 based on results.
Jaedong is not the favourite aganst flash. What are you talking about. No one is the favourite obviously we have no clue who would win since they play on the same level. Slightest mistake from either player and he's screwed.
MSL was a fluke. Flash said he was in a decent spot. He's been well mannered for a long time now and I believe him. He must have had something we didnt know of. Maybe 2 more vessels just popping out and extra cash in his bank, we can't know that only he can. Either decision kespa would have made would have been bad. A player is entitled to a comeback just as we saw in winnersleague. Even though MSL was fucked up it doesn't take away the fact that it showed jaedong can beat flash on a good day the same way flash can beat jaedong on a good day.
The only way we can separate flash and jaedong is through their games vs other players, thus flash takes the lead.
You might as well stop speculating whos the better of the two when faced against eachothers until they play more games.
The fanboyism by both sides is just getting silly. I admit I am a JD fan, but that shouldn't stop me from being just a little objective. There's nothing wrong with being a fan, but it's obvious most of you know nothing about strategy or much about progaming in general.
The way I see it: - Nobody else is even close to these 2 right now. - JD is the favorite in a Bo5 against anyone. - Flash deserves #1 based on results.
No, I disagree with point 2. Jaedong is not favorite against FlaSh (neither vice versa). Both have a single title this season, FlaSh is 4-3 in their recent games. Except for 1 straight win for each of them all the games they played were pretty wild (cheese from FlaSh, crazy dropship, MSL retardedness x2, forgotten Consume) . It is totally impossible to give either of them the advantage.
On January 29 2010 19:05 LxRogue wrote: The fanboyism by both sides is just getting silly. I admit I am a JD fan, but that shouldn't stop me from being just a little objective. There's nothing wrong with being a fan, but it's obvious most of you know nothing about strategy or much about progaming in general.
The way I see it: - Nobody else is even close to these 2 right now. - JD is the favorite in a Bo5 against anyone. - Flash deserves #1 based on results.
Flash fan, and agreed. Though at point 2, I agree that JD is the favorite, but not by much ;D I'd still have some serious trouble predicting the winner if they met again right now.
On January 29 2010 17:29 InFdude wrote: Skill wise Jaedong is way better .But let flash have next month he won in WL . His dominance is comming to an end . If you look at the time line flash went from unbeatable to some times loosing a game (some random flukes ) .At the finals many people said he'd 3/0 Jaedong and atm it's like ''they are on the same lvl '' .After 1 month when all the terrans pick up the macro like crazy style he'll just be one of the many . Let him enjoy his 5 minutes of fame.
Flash is good enough he is never going to be just "one of many", not for more than a month while he adjusts, not until the next generation of progamers (if there ever is one).
That aside, you've sort of hit the nail on the head. Flash's genius is stylistic, build-oriented, and can therefore be copied much easier than Jaedong's, whose genius is almost pure skill. Flash is constantly messing with timings, placements, tech orders, etc. to maintain his edge, which helps him almost as much as his raw skill. When he does settle into a "style" - say for a PL season - his builds can be analyzed and copied. Of course, other Terrans still aren't as good, because they never seem to quite achieve Flash's tank micro or turret placement skill hacks, but Flash's edge is BO domination and innovation, and that can be copied (see: anti-carrier build).
Jaedong's domination is purely skill-based; he rarely innovates much, but then he doesn't need to because he can kill you, at the top of his game, with just mutalisks. Two control groups. Being micro'd at the same time. (Hi Iris.) Not that JD doesn't push the envelope or experiment, it's just that the strategic players these days in the Zerg department are clearly players like ZerO and Calm, while Jaedong is just Better Than You.
So who's better between them? I have no idea, in the long run. This month I'm inclined to leave the edge with Flash, on the basis of momentum and results that are better across 75% of the board at least.
Skill wise Jaedong is way better .But let flash have next month he won in WL . His dominance is comming to an end . If you look at the time line flash went from unbeatable to some times loosing a game (some random flukes ) .At the finals many people said he'd 3/0 Jaedong and atm it's like ''they are on the same lvl '' .After 1 month when all the terrans pick up the macro like crazy style he'll just be one of the many . Let him enjoy his 5 minutes of fame.
Flash is good enough he is never going to be just "one of many", not for more than a month while he adjusts, not until the next generation of progamers (if there ever is one).
That aside, you've sort of hit the nail on the head. Flash's genius is stylistic, build-oriented, and can therefore be copied much easier than Jaedong's, whose genius is almost pure skill. Flash is constantly messing with timings, placements, tech orders, etc. to maintain his edge, which helps him almost as much as his raw skill. When he does settle into a "style" - say for a PL season - his builds can be analyzed and copied. Of course, other Terrans still aren't as good, because they never seem to quite achieve Flash's tank micro or turret placement skill hacks, but Flash's edge is BO domination and innovation, and that can be copied (see: anti-carrier build).
Jaedong's domination is purely skill-based; he rarely innovates much, but then he doesn't need to because he can kill you, at the top of his game, with just mutalisks. Two control groups. Being micro'd at the same time. (Hi Iris.) Not that JD doesn't push the envelope or experiment, it's just that the strategic players these days in the Zerg department are clearly players like ZerO and Calm, while Jaedong is just Better Than You.
So who's better between them? I have no idea, in the long run. This month I'm inclined to leave the edge with Flash, on the basis of momentum and results that are better across 75% of the board at least.
Flash is also just "Better Than You". Sure he gets a lot of wins just by being ahead of the curve strategically, but in fact his execution is also extraordinarily good. How do you think he gets away with his TvZ-defining early MnM aggression? Most T's would just lose that first batch of guys to mutalisk harrassment, but Flash's micro is so good that he can go toe-to-toe with the mutas and come out ahead.
Another example: if you compare Flash vs Calm G3 with the recent Iris vs Soulkey match, you'll see Flash and Iris basically playing the same late game (hold enough expansions to win by starvation and turtle like mad with siege tanks), but Flash just plays it better, against a better opponent. Flash has crazy good execution, and even when other terrans are copying his trends, he'll never be just one of the crowd because his micro, macro and especially game sense are on a whole other level.
On January 29 2010 17:29 InFdude wrote: Skill wise Jaedong is way better .But let flash have next month he won in WL . His dominance is comming to an end . If you look at the time line flash went from unbeatable to some times loosing a game (some random flukes ) .At the finals many people said he'd 3/0 Jaedong and atm it's like ''they are on the same lvl '' .After 1 month when all the terrans pick up the macro like crazy style he'll just be one of the many . Let him enjoy his 5 minutes of fame.
Flash is good enough he is never going to be just "one of many", not for more than a month while he adjusts, not until the next generation of progamers (if there ever is one).
That aside, you've sort of hit the nail on the head. Flash's genius is stylistic, build-oriented, and can therefore be copied much easier than Jaedong's, whose genius is almost pure skill. Flash is constantly messing with timings, placements, tech orders, etc. to maintain his edge, which helps him almost as much as his raw skill. When he does settle into a "style" - say for a PL season - his builds can be analyzed and copied. Of course, other Terrans still aren't as good, because they never seem to quite achieve Flash's tank micro or turret placement skill hacks, but Flash's edge is BO domination and innovation, and that can be copied (see: anti-carrier build).
Jaedong's domination is purely skill-based; he rarely innovates much, but then he doesn't need to because he can kill you, at the top of his game, with just mutalisks. Two control groups. Being micro'd at the same time. (Hi Iris.) Not that JD doesn't push the envelope or experiment, it's just that the strategic players these days in the Zerg department are clearly players like ZerO and Calm, while Jaedong is just Better Than You.
So who's better between them? I have no idea, in the long run. This month I'm inclined to leave the edge with Flash, on the basis of momentum and results that are better across 75% of the board at least.
This is an excellent post and extremely accurate. It's literally how I describe these two players when introducing someone to pro-sc, and greatly helps them understand what to look for in games.
yeah its good but should have included some of flash is also simply just good and thats how he can have more units than any other terran everytime they do the exact same thing coz his macro is so spectacular.
On January 30 2010 08:44 SuperArc wrote: Why do people call Jaedong not innovative...?
He made the 3 base spire into 5 hatch hydra build, hes also starting to do three hatch before pool against terran's rax expands.
Jaedong isnt copying anyone, players copy HIM.
I think what he ment is that he have no trademark style in any matchup. He's not a player who you can figure out and then play counterbuilds to. And thus beating him and throwing him off the throne.
They did with flash's TvP at one point. His style was figured out.
On January 30 2010 08:44 SuperArc wrote: Why do people call Jaedong not innovative...?
He made the 3 base spire into 5 hatch hydra build, hes also starting to do three hatch before pool against terran's rax expands.
Jaedong isnt copying anyone, players copy HIM.
I agree that Jaedong is innovative, but it's just hard for zerg to be really innovative in general.
In MSL game 2, Flash built 2 wraiths, 2 vessels, and 2 dropships in that exact order. If he had done it differently at all, Jaedong would have either done a ton of damage with guardians, been able to defend his main easily, or both. Zerg just doesn't have the opportunity to do things like that.
Right now, I can't see any other possibility than Stork and Really at #3, and #4, whichever order. Maybe Leta or Calm can snatch one of those spots if one all-kills the other's team tomorrow, but I doubt it.
Although Stork had some disappointing losses earlier this month, he completely made up for them by effortlessly destroying SKT and eSTRO's aces to give KHAN a 2-0 score in WL. (If only FBH hadn't been sent out first, he might've gotten more games to show...)
If FBH weren't sent out first Khan would be a dead team. That guy is playing like Hiya was last WL -- destroying noobs and setting up khan's version of Jaedong (Stork).
Yeah seriously. FBH deserves a mention somewhere. The guy might have sucked balls in R1 and R2 but he's pretty much single handedly carrying Samsung Khan so far in Winner's League and actually doing a fair effort (even if all of his builds are pretty much all ins) against Protoss players.
I just rank them based on performance and little fanboism 5 - 9 could be switched also and there could be better candidates for the last spot . I don't know what Plexa will think of and i don't know if i can possible be more surpised then last month's PR , but go Plexa prove me wrong man . I know Calm may look to high , but he shouldn't have been low in the rank this month in the first place . Seriously he only loses to really good TvZ players and most of his losses come from only Flash and i can't blame him for losing against him .
On January 30 2010 05:36 jalstar wrote: fan of neither, but flash has been playing better than jaedong recently, jaedong won the msl but couldn't pull it off in osl or winner's league
every time they have a standard muta->lurker->hive vs 1 rax fe game Flash wins.
thats like only 2 games ...
Flash is good enough he is never going to be just "one of many", not for more than a month while he adjusts, not until the next generation of progamers (if there ever is one).
That aside, you've sort of hit the nail on the head. Flash's genius is stylistic, build-oriented, and can therefore be copied much easier than Jaedong's, whose genius is almost pure skill. Flash is constantly messing with timings, placements, tech orders, etc. to maintain his edge, which helps him almost as much as his raw skill. When he does settle into a "style" - say for a PL season - his builds can be analyzed and copied. Of course, other Terrans still aren't as good, because they never seem to quite achieve Flash's tank micro or turret placement skill hacks, but Flash's edge is BO domination and innovation, and that can be copied (see: anti-carrier build).
Jaedong's domination is purely skill-based; he rarely innovates much, but then he doesn't need to because he can kill you, at the top of his game, with just mutalisks. Two control groups. Being micro'd at the same time. (Hi Iris.) Not that JD doesn't push the envelope or experiment, it's just that the strategic players these days in the Zerg department are clearly players like ZerO and Calm, while Jaedong is just Better Than YouSo who's better between them? I have no idea, in the long run.
This month I'm inclined to leave the edge with Flash, on the basis of momentum and results that are better across 75% of the board at least.
Sorry man , but Zero hasn't really innovated anything . He likes to mess around with queens , because he is normaly owning the other player because he is better then him . Unless he starts doing it in almost every game he plays and other players start copying it's not innovation .
I agree with Calm thought some of his builds are really well planned in all MU's even in ZvZ . I like to copy some of his builds in Iccup even thought i can barely beat C- players ....
Jaedong's 3 hat before pool with a scout on 9 is an innovative build , that could revolutionize ZvT , the early larva you get from 3 hatches is pretty huge compared to the standart 3 hat build and i could see it being copied by other good zergs that know what they are doing . Also his early evo chambers and early carapace upgrades makes it a pretty good counter to Flash's aggresive middle game and a pretty good build in general . The fact that he is showing that zergs can pretty much be more greedy then a terran and be safe about it by scouting and countering appropriately what the terran is doing is pretty huge . So saying that Jaedong isn't an innovative player is just wrong . He didn't innovate much when he was stomping players left and right because he didn't need to . But when he is up against the monster that is Flash innovation is pretty much needed to survive against him .
On January 30 2010 08:53 LucasWoJ wrote: And Jaedong created modern day zvz. Literally. Everything about it.
No, that's not true at all. Muta micro for one was invented awhile ago, by [I think] JulyZerg, maybe Savior? He's certainly the best Zerg right now, but it's silly to paint him as the pioneer of all things Zerg.
In any event, when is this going to get updated again? I'm guessing early Feb? Really has been completely dominate this and last season and definitely should be in the top 10, movie has really seemed to have lost his edge since losing to flash in the OSL quarterfinals and Sea seems to be middling of late. Kal is holding steady with strong play, but nothing dominating. Leta completely dominated last season (too soon to say for WL). Jaedong seems to be coming back strong, but Storku played amazing last season and (spoiler about WL) + Show Spoiler +
has cleaned up Khan's mess in back to back games finishing off Fantasy after FBH and Jangbi bit in and then Really after he almost pulled a reverse all kill
, so I'd keep him at #2. Jangbi seems to be struggling lately, so I'd have to stick him probably around the 11-15 range.
I'd probably have the top 10: 1. Flash 2. Storku 3. Jaedong 4. Really 5. Leta 6. Calm 7. Zero 8. Kwanro 9. Kal 10. ?
Nobody really jumps out to me as a solid 10th. There's a couple guys that I could see in that area like Hiya or Roro, but they haven't done anything amazing for me.
On January 30 2010 08:53 LucasWoJ wrote: And Jaedong created modern day zvz. Literally. Everything about it.
No, that's not true at all. Muta micro for one was invented awhile ago, by [I think] JulyZerg, maybe Savior? He's certainly the best Zerg right now, but it's silly to paint him as the pioneer of all things Zerg.
In any event, when is this going to get updated again? I'm guessing early Feb? Really has been completely dominate this and last season and definitely should be in the top 10, movie has really seemed to have lost his edge since losing to flash in the OSL quarterfinals and Sea seems to be middling of late. Kal is holding steady with strong play, but nothing dominating. Leta completely dominated last season (too soon to say for WL). Jaedong seems to be coming back strong, but Storku played amazing last season and (spoiler about WL) + Show Spoiler +
has cleaned up Khan's mess in back to back games finishing off Fantasy after FBH and Jangbi bit in and then Really after he almost pulled a reverse all kill
, so I'd keep him at #2. Jangbi seems to be struggling lately, so I'd have to stick him probably around the 11-15 range.
I'd probably have the top 10: 1. Flash 2. Storku 3. Jaedong 4. Really 5. Leta 6. Calm 7. Zero 8. Kal 9. Kwanro 10. ?
Nobody really jumps out to me as a solid 10th. There's a couple guys that I could see in that area like Hiya or Roro, but they haven't done anything amazing for me.
I was going to make a comment about Jaedong and how he has revolutionized ZvZ , but after seeing you rank Stork above Jaedong in your PR i'll save it .
On January 30 2010 08:53 LucasWoJ wrote: And Jaedong created modern day zvz. Literally. Everything about it.
No, that's not true at all. Muta micro for one was invented awhile ago, by [I think] JulyZerg, maybe Savior? He's certainly the best Zerg right now, but it's silly to paint him as the pioneer of all things Zerg.
Hahaha... muta micro =/= ZvZ, although pre-Jaedong muta micro was far inferior to the modern day. The precision, timing attacks, careful unit counting, zergling run-by plays (often in the midst of mutalisk attacks) and methodical concave exploitation have advanced tremendously since Jaedong took over ZvZ. Luxury, then Effort and Calm, were the first non-JD zergs to really get it, and now everyone who's anyone plays ZvZ like Jaedong, albeit a little less badass. There's a reason he was 80% ZvZ for so long (in a match-up with very strong build order advantages/disadvantages and overlord luck) and there's a reason he's not anymore.
On January 30 2010 19:08 Craton wrote: 2. Storku 3. Jaedong
ROFL
Storku's playing pretty well, but, uh... Jaedong won the MSL losing only one game. He's the scarier mofo at present.
By the by, there's a lot of mention of 3 hatch before pool in ZvT... I believe that just gives +2 larva. It's certainly helpful, but not some sort of outrageous advantage. (And the mineral loss for 9 drone scouting probably counteracts the gains anyway. It looks to me like a way to 9 drone scout without taking an economic hit (over 12 hatch 11 pool 13 hatch) if you find your opponent and he's not cheesing. Which is clever, but... revolutionary? Really?)
I think you're misinterprenting the first post about jaedongs "innovation".
Imo its not his innovation that makes him special. He's not known to be the player who comes up with these new awesome strats, even if he does. What stands out about him the most is is raw skill, mechanics.
What stands out about flash lately is also his raw skill, but in the past it was more his strategies, like the flash strat.
To put it simple, jaedongs raw skill makes him stand out MORE than his ability to make innovations.
I'm not spoiler tagging anything about MSL in this post, so if by some miracle you still haven't seen it, don't read on.
Hahaha... muta micro =/= ZvZ, although pre-Jaedong muta micro was far inferior to the modern day. The precision, timing attacks, careful unit counting, zergling run-by plays (often in the midst of mutalisk attacks) and methodical concave exploitation have advanced tremendously since Jaedong took over ZvZ. Luxury, then Effort and Calm, were the first non-JD zergs to really get it, and now everyone who's anyone plays ZvZ like Jaedong, albeit a little less badass. There's a reason he was 80% ZvZ for so long (in a match-up with very strong build order advantages/disadvantages and overlord luck) and there's a reason he's not anymore.
The point is that Jaedong isn't the only thing that ever happened to zerg. Yes, he's a great player and yes he's done a lot, but you're completely naive to think he's the only zerg to have ever invented anything.
To the other poster: Jaedong won MSL with one loss, yes, but that was a controversial a final as we've probably ever had. The manner in which Flash lost the 3rd (a ruling over actual play) would take the wind out of the sails for anyone. Add that to a solid hour stewing on that before playing the fourth game. Maybe if MBC hadn't failed colossally Flash might've taken a 2nd game and JD won 3-2, maybe he'd have come back and won 3-2 himself. Do I think JD would've still won? Yes, and I was vehemently rooting for him the whole time. That said, we'll never know how things might have turned out.
What we do know is that JD was in a weak spell for awhile (admittedly weak for JD is still great for most players), but Stork has been becoming more and more dominate every week. JD has been returning to glory and showing off some dominate play, but consider what happened at the end of KT vs Oz a few days ago. JD is a damn good player and he may certainly prove himself worthy of #2 or #1 again, but at this moment I'm sticking to my guns and keeping Stork #2.
Craton, jaedong and flash are dominating at another level than all the other progamers right now. There is no way you could put stork ahead of Jaedong after this month.
With jaedong showing dominance equal to flash except alot less games played the only way you could do this is based on results. And stork hasn't had a pretty good month.
Stork 4-3 this month. Jaedong 11-3 this month.
Can you name one thing that would put stork above jaedong? Just one little thing?
On January 30 2010 20:44 Craton wrote: What we do know is that JD was in a weak spell for awhile (admittedly weak for JD is still great for most players), but Stork has been becoming more and more dominate every week.
Yeah, that was in October, where he went 3-3. Since then he is 79%, and Stork is 63%. And this month Stork is 4-3 while Jaedong is 11-3, including 3 Bo5 wins where he lost a total of 1 game, which was against the best player in the world.
On January 30 2010 21:42 FireGuyX wrote: 1.Flash 2.Jaedong 3.Really 4.Stork 5.Firebathero 6.GuemChi 7.Leta 8.Kwanro 9.Calm 10.Bisu
Bandwagon powerrank
What are you stupid? It has nothing to do with being a bandwagner, the power rankings is all about who did very well this month, I thought that's how you rank powerrankings? Maybe I should replace firebathero and put in Effort, I bet that would make sense to you.
Would be my personal PR I guess putting ZerO on 10 was pretty random. Wanted to put Sea on 10 but figured to balance it out visually by putting a Zerg on there :D Perhaps Kwanro would make a nice 10th.
On January 30 2010 19:13 raga4ka wrote: I was going to make a comment about Jaedong and how he has revolutionized ZvZ , but after seeing you rank Stork above Jaedong in your PR i'll save it .
Please do that. There is no doubt in my mind that JD revolutionized the MU, but since I don't understand ZvZ at all I would love to hear specifically what he did.
On January 30 2010 21:42 FireGuyX wrote: 1.Flash 2.Jaedong 3.Really 4.Stork 5.Firebathero 6.GuemChi 7.Leta 8.Kwanro 9.Calm 10.Bisu
Bandwagon powerrank
What are you stupid? It has nothing to do with being a bandwagner, the power rankings is all about who did very well this month, I thought that's how you rank powerrankings? Maybe I should replace firebathero and put in Effort, I bet that would make sense to you.
gaaah you're so ... nvm.
the next PR shouldn`t be that hard to make imo...at least the top spots.
On January 30 2010 21:42 FireGuyX wrote: 1.Flash 2.Jaedong 3.Really 4.Stork 5.Firebathero 6.GuemChi 7.Leta 8.Kwanro 9.Calm 10.Bisu
Bandwagon powerrank
What are you stupid? It has nothing to do with being a bandwagner, the power rankings is all about who did very well this month, I thought that's how you rank powerrankings? Maybe I should replace firebathero and put in Effort, I bet that would make sense to you.
gaaah you're so ... nvm.
the next PR shouldn`t be that hard to make imo...at least the top spots.
gaaah you're such a pathetic idiot. If you want to counter my argument, say something that makes sense. If not you're just making yourself look like a troll.
On January 30 2010 21:42 FireGuyX wrote: 1.Flash 2.Jaedong 3.Really 4.Stork 5.Firebathero 6.GuemChi 7.Leta 8.Kwanro 9.Calm 10.Bisu
Bandwagon powerrank
What are you stupid? It has nothing to do with being a bandwagner, the power rankings is all about who did very well this month, I thought that's how you rank powerrankings? Maybe I should replace firebathero and put in Effort, I bet that would make sense to you.
gaaah you're so ... nvm.
the next PR shouldn`t be that hard to make imo...at least the top spots.
gaaah you're such a pathetic idiot. If you want to counter my argument, say something that makes sense. If not you're just making yourself look like a troll.
and this is coming from someone who has "favorite programmers" in his sig LOL
ok the problem with your PR is that you are putting people high just because of some WL wins [impressive, admittedly, but hello there are certain people who made starleague finals (and semifinals) who should be there?] can you really claim guemchi > kwanro and calm
On January 30 2010 21:42 FireGuyX wrote: 1.Flash 2.Jaedong 3.Really 4.Stork 5.Firebathero 6.GuemChi 7.Leta 8.Kwanro 9.Calm 10.Bisu
Bandwagon powerrank
What are you stupid? It has nothing to do with being a bandwagner, the power rankings is all about who did very well this month, I thought that's how you rank powerrankings? Maybe I should replace firebathero and put in Effort, I bet that would make sense to you.
gaaah you're so ... nvm.
the next PR shouldn`t be that hard to make imo...at least the top spots.
gaaah you're such a pathetic idiot. If you want to counter my argument, say something that makes sense. If not you're just making yourself look like a troll.
well, than what does that make you? insulting people for nothing? oh well, I`m just gonna stop here, no use to try talking to people like you.
On January 30 2010 21:42 FireGuyX wrote: 1.Flash 2.Jaedong 3.Really 4.Stork 5.Firebathero 6.GuemChi 7.Leta 8.Kwanro 9.Calm 10.Bisu
Bandwagon powerrank
What are you stupid? It has nothing to do with being a bandwagner, the power rankings is all about who did very well this month, I thought that's how you rank powerrankings? Maybe I should replace firebathero and put in Effort, I bet that would make sense to you.
gaaah you're so ... nvm.
the next PR shouldn`t be that hard to make imo...at least the top spots.
gaaah you're such a pathetic idiot. If you want to counter my argument, say something that makes sense. If not you're just making yourself look like a troll.
and this is coming from someone who has "favorite programmers" in his sig LOL
ok the problem with your PR is that you are putting people high just because of some WL wins [impressive, admittedly, but hello there are certain people who made starleague finals (and semifinals) who should be there?] can you really claim guemchi > kwanro and calm
no he can`t. I`m actually surprised that he hasn`t been banned yet, coz of his extremely polite language. But nvm, no use to argue with people that know everything.
On January 30 2010 21:37 StylishVODs wrote:Can you name one thing that would put stork above jaedong? Just one little thing?
He's protoss ;-)
I set up my list by how things feel to me. I agree that JD is surging with a vengeance right now, but I'm not quite ready to put him back over top. JD's W-L is impressive, sure, but without going back and looking through the players each one fought, the maps used, the situations they were in, accounting for different league play (etc.) it's hard to put a real value on it.
What stands out to me lately is JD's strong performance at MSL, JD's debacle in the earlier mentioned WL game, and Storks consistency at cleaning up for Khan against on fire opponents. If not for that debacle, I might have placed JD just ahead of Stork. That all said, JD is opening for Oz Feb 1, 2010, so hopefully we'll actually get to see which side of him to expect.
The same goes for Flash, he's teetering a little after losing MSL, but he did win OSL and most of the prelims in crushing fashion and he so far seems to be keeping a consistent level of play. I'd drop him a slight notch, but not off the #1 peg just yet.
On January 30 2010 21:37 StylishVODs wrote:Can you name one thing that would put stork above jaedong? Just one little thing?
He's protoss ;-)
I set up my list by how things feel to me. I agree that JD is surging with a vengeance right now, but I'm not quite ready to put him back over top. JD's W-L is impressive, sure, but without going back and looking through the players each one fought, the maps used, the situations they were in, accounting for different league play (etc.) it's hard to put a real value on it.
What stands out to me lately is JD's strong performance at MSL, JD's debacle in the earlier mentioned WL game, and Storks consistency at cleaning up for Khan against on fire opponents. If not for that debacle, I might have placed JD just ahead of Stork. That all said, JD is opening for Oz Feb 1, 2010, so hopefully we'll actually get to see which side of him to expect.
The same goes for Flash, he's teetering a little after losing MSL, but he did win OSL and most of the prelims in crushing fashion and he so far seems to be keeping a consistent level of play. I'd drop him a slight notch, but not off the #1 peg just yet.
Of course Flash and Jaedong seem teetering if they've only been losing to each other. Placed in context, they're far ahead in performance than everyone else.
Both are playing GREAT. Both have been losing only to their respective selves. However, I'd give the slight advantage to Flash because the nature of their games. The games where Jaedong won were a lot more difficult to gauge his skill level in. (Set one ending quite early, Power outage, and set 4 ending ridiculously early) Not to take away from Jaedong's skill, because he's definitely still amazing, but from what I've seen, Flash is still playing the best starcraft right now.
On January 30 2010 21:42 FireGuyX wrote: 1.Flash 2.Jaedong 3.Really 4.Stork 5.Firebathero 6.GuemChi 7.Leta 8.Kwanro 9.Calm 10.Bisu
Bandwagon powerrank
What are you stupid? It has nothing to do with being a bandwagner, the power rankings is all about who did very well this month, I thought that's how you rank powerrankings? Maybe I should replace firebathero and put in Effort, I bet that would make sense to you.
lawl, it has nothing to do with bandwagoning, its just whose doing good right now. I sure am dumb
Then one could argue, but those guys are definately top10 material: Kal Really Sea
Ok, now we have 4 spots left, so I'll just throw out some names: Guemchi FBH Light movie All of them performed well in WL - except for movie of course...
On January 31 2010 09:25 MisteR wrote: Oh man, I hope Jaedong gets #1. Just because the Flash-fanboy-lovetrain is getting on my nerves.
Yeah, go jump the bandwagon together with Kespa and MBC
? I'm not jumping on any bandwagon, rather I'm feeling a bit outnumbered by all the thinking sciency numberological people around here, who all think Flash's perfect terran play is the best thing since sliced bread. Maybe it is, but I guess I feel that Jaedong's artsy super zerg play lacks a bit of recognition at the moment.
I know Plexa is one of the thinkmen out there, so it's no suprise that five terrans fill the power rank now, everywhere taking higher places than their direct counterparts (Flash over Jaedong, Really and Leta over Kal, Kwanro and Stork, FBH over Guemchi, Hiya over Calm). But that's exactly what I'm talking about. There's more to live than terrans, and I'm counting the days until a good old fashioned protoss lover will take up the power rank.
EPT
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