EPT2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with.
Power Rank 01/03/2010 - Page 14
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HuntingX
United States8 Posts
2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with. | ||
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Captain Mayhem
Sweden774 Posts
On January 05 2010 22:28 Hinanawi wrote:/.../ North Korea invades South Korea. South Korea wires the controls for all of its tanks and fighter jets to Flash's control. He uses them like siege tanks/wraiths and decimates North Korea (and laughs at them for wasting their eco on making nukes). Bored with the small-fry, he proceeds to somehow make China surrender as well. /.../ Hahahaha, fuck I gotta clean my monitor now xD | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On January 05 2010 23:17 HuntingX wrote: 2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with. The single biggest issue I have with the "jaedong is still in the MSL" argument is that he's being spoonfed scrubs thanks to the retarded MSL bracket generation system. Let me know when Jaedong faces a real opponent in the MSL kkk | ||
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HuntingX
United States8 Posts
I think it's important to give players who still have a shot at getting a title the 'benefit of the doubt' rather than the converse. Just like we judge basketball and football teams by their past performances, and just like we judge tennis players on a year-long cycle. Barring immediate evidence of catastrophic fail (like a terrible short term record or getting knocked out of both leagues -> bisu) we should not down-grade players. To Jaedong's credit, the only 'big games' he's lost were to Flash. To Stork's detriment, he's lost 'big games' to Movie and Canata! Not too impressive by comparison. Until Stork proves that he can consistently 'hang' with the big boys late into Starleagues (and win them), he doesn't deserve a higher pole position. Similarly, until he shows off his chops in important Ace matches in Proleague, he cannot be the star ace that so many fans believe he is. | ||
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On January 05 2010 16:17 Fenrax wrote: So to point out the weakness of your arguments: Not probably, Jaedong performed certainly better in Proleague. Good, we agree on that. So, do I get this right? JD is still in one more Starleague than Stork AND better in Proleague? While the only reason he is out of a Star League at all is because he was paired against the 2400 guy who just came up with a yet uncountered TvZ style and the second game with a brilliant cheese? What could Jaedong have done? He was better in Proleague than Stork and he was flawless in the MSL group. So, his opponents were not that impressive? What could he do about it? Nothing! (Ironically Stork on the other actually could have done something about it. Not 0-2ing in the MSL at the end of November and qualifying for the next round that is. But that was November, so it doesn't count). The only thing Jaedong could have done better this month would have been to beat Flash in a TvZ, which seems impossible like beating Usain Bolt in a 200m race. On the other hand Stork could have beaten Shine in the OSL, which seems much more possible. (Or, again, qualify for the Dezember MSL rounds and show a good performance there, but again I give you that Stork's Novemver losses don't count for Dezember). So you concerned November records? What really enrages me is this part: "JD had some key losses against crap Zergs" in November? What an incredible biased way to say things. How about saying it like THIS? Jaedong had ONLY 2 losses in all games in the whole month of November in which he also won the world Cyber games title while Stork ended the month with 4 losses in a row. So, I ask you, plexa, WHAT kind of November data gave Stork the edge? Losing 4x in a row right before the datat collection for PR Dezember began? Losing to JD in WCG finals? Losing twice as often as Jaedong in regular games in November? November and Dezember combined Stork was overall 15-8 while Jaedong was 19-5. And that is NOT including the games for Jaedongs WCG title. So, go ahead, tell me, what kind of November data did you use? Probably the unofficial one he turns to when the real data can`t support his claims, I heard apparently JD lost more games in practice than Stork during November\December! LOL On a serious note, your a great poster and a great guy Plexa, but you really fucked up hard on this PowerRank and its so glaringly apparent that your biased. You LOVE MBC check, You LOVE Kwanro check, you HATE Jaedong check. You then proceed to place Stork above JD and as Fenrax showed superbly in his post that was just wrong, no matter how you look at it. Also you claim non of his games are close except his losses, did his game3 vs SHine or the game vs Effort look very close to you? Then you put Sea at 7th despite him going only 5-3 the month and having no leagues to practice for. (Yeah 2 of his losses was vs good opponents, but the only good player he beat was JD the rest kinda sucks or at least are playing like trash lately, see Yarnc, Hero, FBH). Despite having players like Kal who went 10-3 for the month still in one league (note his PL performance was 5-3 the same as Sea, tho vs slightly weaker opponents, but he has yet dropped a game in MSL and had a bigger workload). Or Violet whos performed similar vs slightly worse opponents going 6-3 (but beating Sea himself) Then you have someone like Calm going 6-2 in PL vs probably stronger opponents than Sea while maintaining 11-5 with his 3 remaining losses coming from Flash. Now you give a reason for it, which in my opinion is just a load of crap. His game vs Piano he did not pull way ahead (He got in a good spot, but in no way a gamedeciding advantage), he had ruined his eco to do 2hatch lurkers which killed some MnM (which T will spew out lots of new ones anyway) a bunker and a scan. Then he proceeds to transition into a normal game which includes hive (So in essence your punishing him for not going some kind of all in that would have ended the game pre hive). Then he manages to coordinate a strong attack on Ts natural and shut it down for the rest of the game while still defending back home and you call this poor play??? Yeah the Fantasy game he played kind a sloppy, but not nearly as bad as everyone seem to think since things WILL look sloppy when there are battles going on and drops all over the place. Onto the Flash series I don`t even know what to say. He came closer than anyone else beating Flash this month. Yeah his mutamicro was a bit off in game 1 and 4 (tho I think this should be credited equally to Flash supreme Marine control as much as Calms "bad" mutamicro. Its not easy fighting perfectly positioned MnMs that is CONSTANTLY moving with mutas, and here you should notice how Flashs superb play always forced this to happen out in the open where he had plenty of room to maneuver while keeping his bases safe from harass. Game 2 and 3 you cover nicely. Here despite your bashing of his Hive play he comes within inches of going up 2-1 vs Flash in ZvT, this despite everyone else losing badly vs him. Onto game 4, here you once again bash his hiveplay, despite him never getting to use his hive since he died vs an insanely strong early timed push on close positions. Now you hold this AGAINST his ZvT??? He came closer to beating Flash than anyone else has come for the last 3 months.(No ZerOs game on ultimatum was not closer than the Fighting Spirit game). If anything this series was a testament to Calms ZvT skill, not against it. In fact after reading your analyzes of some of those games I begin to question if you even understand the matchup TvZ. After this you bash on his ZvP despite him pulling in wins consistently in that matchup and just like your wonderboy Shine he keeps on winning in the earlygame (but you never hold that against Shine do you? Once again being inconsistent) with not to much lategame play going on. He is 11-2 in his last 13 ZvPs and still you highly question his ZvP? Onto Kwanro, I have to admit I have barely watch any of his games the last month (Tho he was his cheesy self in the few I watched vs Stork\Light) so I can`t really comment on it. So his rank can be well deserved for all I know however since you choose to make an argument for him being as high I can guess he don`t deserve it since every other argument you have made for your placements have been either biased or just plain wrong. Then you have ZerO who dropped out of both leagues, lost ace matches and in general lost every time the stakes got high (granted vs hard opponents) gets to keep his 6th spot due to strong gameplay, while someone like Effort who also showed strong play in lots of his losses (like vs Free and Jangbi where he got into game deciding bad spots early both games but still showed excellent play through the late stages of the games.) gets punished for dropping out of leagues while for ZerO and Stork getting knocked out holds no consequence, again showing your inconsistent judging system. Both Effort and Calm played 15 and 16 games in December that is not much less than ZerO and that is double the amount of Sea and still Effort managed to get a 7-4 score in PL comparable to Seas with double the workload. His losses was vs slightly worse players than Seas but he his wins was vs better players. If all you can remember of Effort is his "embarrassing" loss vs Ruby you can`t have watched many of his games, also how is it embarrassing to lose vs Ruby (Who has been playing some sharp TvZ lately) on a heavily T>Z map? Hell Effort did not even play bad. Also note that I don`t really care about any of these players, as long as its not Bisu being discussed I consider myself to be totally neutral, and even fairly objective for a fanboy when Bisu is being discussed. I just felt really strongly about this list since I disagree with so much of it and feel that your highly inconsistent in the criteria you use to, especially the arguments you give for your decisions. | ||
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exeprime
United Kingdom643 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
Stork has been performing consistently in all match-ups, against better players, and looked damn impressive. Jaedong has yet to play a game that knocked my socks off in December. His Starleague routes were much much easier than Stork's. I don't see a single reason why Jaedong should be placed ahead of Stork, unless you really think it matters that he is still in the MSL. | ||
Ninja4ever.
France231 Posts
On January 05 2010 22:28 Hinanawi wrote: Thought I'd thank Jaedong for tonight so that this gap could happen, at least for now: ![[image loading]](http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/9136/elom.jpg) I also looked into my crystal ball to predict the future: + Show Spoiler + Flash wins every starleague in 2010, exceeding 75% winrate in every matchup. Kespa decides to ban Flash from using Terran because the suspense of who will win is gone, but their clever plan is foiled when Flash continues to win every starleague playing as Protoss, completely reversing the Z>P trend with new builds and strategies. In his winner's interviews for his first Protoss dual OSL/MSL victories: "I should have switched to P years ago, who knew it was this easy?" North Korea invades South Korea. South Korea wires the controls for all of its tanks and fighter jets to Flash's control. He uses them like siege tanks/wraiths and decimates North Korea (and laughs at them for wasting their eco on making nukes). Bored with the small-fry, he proceeds to somehow make China surrender as well. Religious tensions in the Middle East disappear as feuding Muslims and Jews realize that their God can't possibly be real, because Flash is God, and they live happily ever after together in Jerusalem, which has now been renamed LeeYoungHoselum. ... Either that or Flash crashes and loses 0-3 to Shine in OSL, 1-3 to BeSt in MSL, and then gets sent into a permanent slump when his TvT streak gets broken soon after by CuteAngel nuking him. The crystal ball was a little fuzzy. Rofl, that was just too funny. | ||
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MayorITC
Korea (South)798 Posts
On January 05 2010 23:17 HuntingX wrote: 2. Jaedong is STILL IN THE MSL. Ignoring that MULTIPLE pros (and even top foreigners) have said ZvZ mechanics is so high now that it's basically build order wins, and ignoring that 2 of JD's losses come to Flash, etc. Yes, it's bad to lose to CrazyHydra. But it's ZvZ, Jaedong's ZvZ has been shaky as of late (his ZvP, on the other hand, has looked great). Stork has to perform BETTER than Jaedong to make up for the fact that he's out of BOTH leagues. That's the distinction that we seem to have trouble coming to terms with. You have to consider the context of everything. And I do mean EVERYTHING. Don't quote statistics only without evaluating: 1. The opponents for each win 2. The opponents for each loss 3. The division/league in which the game took place I see people mentioning how Jaedong's losses was to Flash, the hottest player at the moment, but fail to address how his wins were mainly against mediocre players. You do realize that Jaedong still being in the MSL isn't a major accomplishment due to MSL seedings, right? I'd put more weight into Stork's December PL ace matches than Jaedong's MSL matches so far. Rank 2 and 3 are rather open-ended if you consider all the different aspects that go into the equation of making a PR. Plexa admitted it was a close-call between Jaedong and Stork, and people who are vehemently arguing that Jaedong/Stork deserves to be higher than the other would not be good at making PRs. Simply because you can't go solely off of numbers and that interpretation is required for PRs. And when there is interpretation, there is also room for variance. | ||
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SuperArc
Austria7781 Posts
On January 06 2010 01:06 Plexa wrote: The single biggest issue I have with the "jaedong is still in the MSL" argument is that he's being spoonfed scrubs thanks to the retarded MSL bracket generation system. Let me know when Jaedong faces a real opponent in the MSL kkk Yeah, JD like Flash gets an easy way into the MSL finals. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On January 05 2010 18:08 Fenrax wrote: Calm down? That IS part of the problem. Hahahaha "calm the fuck down and discuss this in a mannered fashion" ...like cursing in bold letters? Haha thats a pretty good pun :D I garantuee you though, I was as calm as can be when I wrote that post. On January 05 2010 22:28 Hinanawi wrote: Thought I'd thank Jaedong for tonight so that this gap could happen, at least for now: I also looked into my crystal ball to predict the future: + Show Spoiler + Flash wins every starleague in 2010, exceeding 75% winrate in every matchup. Kespa decides to ban Flash from using Terran because the suspense of who will win is gone, but their clever plan is foiled when Flash continues to win every starleague playing as Protoss, completely reversing the Z>P trend with new builds and strategies. In his winner's interviews for his first Protoss dual OSL/MSL victories: "I should have switched to P years ago, who knew it was this easy?" North Korea invades South Korea. South Korea wires the controls for all of its tanks and fighter jets to Flash's control. He uses them like siege tanks/wraiths and decimates North Korea (and laughs at them for wasting their eco on making nukes). Bored with the small-fry, he proceeds to somehow make China surrender as well. Religious tensions in the Middle East disappear as feuding Muslims and Jews realize that their God can't possibly be real, because Flash is God, and they live happily ever after together in Jerusalem, which has now been renamed LeeYoungHoselum. ... Either that or Flash crashes and loses 0-3 to Shine in OSL, 1-3 to BeSt in MSL, and then gets sent into a permanent slump when his TvT streak gets broken soon after by CuteAngel nuking him. The crystal ball was a little fuzzy. lolololol epic post | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10856 Posts
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Demand2k
Norway875 Posts
On January 05 2010 13:14 HuntingX wrote: Yes, because the '#2' player getting trashed in 10 minutes against the #1 player, in his BEST MATCHUP, IN AN ACE MATCH, makes perfect sense. Riggggght. Flash didn't even Cheese Stork; he just straightup OWNED him. Did you even WATCH the game? You're telling me Calm didn't play better than THAT? Seriously? Heck, BEST will play 10x better than that in his BO5 with Flash (and obviously, Best doesn't deserve a spot!). I can't cite Stork v Stats, because then people will say he didn't take Stats seriously (and he probably didn't). In any event, Stork, out of both leagues, and not performing that well in Proleague. #2 PR? Over... Jaedong? Ignoring results to throw out biased rankings (Sea anywhere is a cosmic joke) makes the whole thing hilarious (and a laughingstock outside of this site). Stork lost to Flash in January | ||
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On January 05 2010 19:18 exeprime wrote: Not when most of the PR is based on "the way the games looked" rather than results. It's a bit like giving a player a free pass because you're convinced he's better than his results show, and you expect that to show over time. I'm not arguing this specifically in the case of Stork, but if you base an entire PR on impressions of strength rather than results, it should be expected that you'll be also judged by results that occur after the PR - especially if they don't confirm your rankings. After all, strength is the ability to win games, and ranking a player that wins less both in the PR month *and* after that higher than one with better results - simply means that the ranking isn't very accurate. So... Jaedong losing to not-the-number-1-player justifies that stork IS better than jaedong. | ||
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Kibibit
United States1551 Posts
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
On January 06 2010 03:05 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I 100% agree with this list. (I would put Calm over Kwanro though) Stork has been performing consistently in all match-ups, against better players, and looked damn impressive. Jaedong has yet to play a game that knocked my socks off in December. His Starleague routes were much much easier than Stork's. I don't see a single reason why Jaedong should be placed ahead of Stork, unless you really think it matters that he is still in the MSL. Outside the three games he lost, he dominated all his other opponents. It's not his fault who he plays, but he made the best of it and raped every single player besides Sea and Flash. Stork however was given the chance to do better as he played better players, but did not perform as well. | ||
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excal
Canada166 Posts
Thankfully, the PR has never been only about results. Calm is a great player. As I've mentioned time and time again, it is his versatility that makes him stand out - from 2 hatch lurker to 5 hatch hydra, he can play the gamut of Zerg builds and do so in style. While a bad record this month does make him drop towards the bottom of the rank, it's difficult to think of many players who can beat him in a bo5 at the moment. Bisu has had a bad month, yes, and he hasn't been doing so hot. But like you say, it's about overall strength and I don't think there is any protoss out there short of stork who could be argued to be on the same level. Movie? I love him, but he's not where CLOSE to his level. Kwanro? Get outta here. | ||
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On January 06 2010 09:19 Avidkeystamper wrote: Outside the three games he lost, he dominated all his other opponents. It's not his fault who he plays, but he made the best of it and raped every single player besides Sea and Flash. Stork however was given the chance to do better as he played better players, but did not perform as well. Outside the four games he lost, he dominated all his other opponents. It's not his fault who he plays, but he made the best of it and raped every single player besides Shine, Effort, and By.Hero. Jaedong however was given the chance to do better as he played better players, but did not perform as well. Wow, it fits so well for jaedong too. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
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