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Please try to keep the discussion civil. And while I can't ask everyone to write a huge essay like tree.hugger, try to write out your opinions in a substantive, well-thought way. |
This is just like what happened to MVP. He was ridiculous during the time he won his first title, but then he sucked and disappeared for a few months. Then he showed up and won the GSl super tournament.
He also decimated the competition at MLG Anaheim, dropping only a few games ( DRG, KiwiKaki, and MMA I think, maybe 1 or 2 more people). Then this GSL, he destroyed MC and then took down Nestea in RO16. This guy went through his slump and re-emerged even better and more dominant.
Is the problem actually racial balance? Perhaps, but I won't argue for or against it. Instead, I'm going to say MC needs more time to collect himself, maybe work on his mechanics a bit more. Though by the sounds of the one game against Puma at IEM, he made 1 mistake and lost a huge engagement, even after playing phenomenal. >.>
Idk, more time needed.
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On September 09 2011 01:13 n0btozz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 01:06 Roggay wrote:On September 09 2011 00:36 Waxangel wrote:venturing into dangerous territory here, but I've gotta say, the current stats do seem to warrant a serious talk about P being underpowered, without sweeping it under the rug of balance whine. + Show Spoiler +5 P, 7 Z, 20 T in Code-s October. There's def something there. With this logic, the same could be true for zerg... Plus, I really feel like Terrans have more talented players in korea, and that a good portion of this racial distribution is due to that. Please, could TL refrain from posting imbalance whining bullshit? We don't need another battle.net forum. What Protoss players are doing now is exactly what Zerg players were shitted on for doing some months ago. I'm not saying there is no imbalance, but we don't need this kind of whining here. I can´t understand this community. It´s so "hush hush". People don´t want anyone to talk about balance issues, why is that forbidden? If there is a issue, it should be discussed, that´s the way to deal with issues. Discussing things is a way for people to get a "collective mind" and maybe find solutions, or maybe just check if they are the only ones feeling this way. You admit yourself that balance is an issue right now. A loud, outspoken discussion possibly could catch the ears of the forever deaf blizzard in-house balance team. Of course, rude posts about balance, angry posts about balance, off topic balance whining is one thing. But intellectual, well prepared arguments is something you shouldn´t be whining your self about. I say it´s a sign of "growth" and "maturity" that we can have "chilled" balance discussions. If you can´t do that as a civilized community, and need to bash on people for having those discussions, something is very much so wrong.
I'm not bashing on anyone, but if people read this kind of balance whining on the front page of TL, they will be more inclined to come and whine and bash everyone on the LR threads for exemple and it will lead to a general deterioration of the forum.
Very few good things actually come from a balance discussion. Yes, it can be good if everyone stay civilised, but its often not the truth at all. And I certainly do not want to see people whine about balance because they saw someone saying those things on the front page of TL.
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On September 09 2011 01:13 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 01:09 Olinim wrote:On September 09 2011 01:06 Roggay wrote:On September 09 2011 00:36 Waxangel wrote:venturing into dangerous territory here, but I've gotta say, the current stats do seem to warrant a serious talk about P being underpowered, without sweeping it under the rug of balance whine. + Show Spoiler +5 P, 7 Z, 20 T in Code-s October. There's def something there. With this logic, the same could be true for zerg... Plus, I really feel like Terrans have more talented players in korea, and that a good portion of this racial distribution is due to that. Please, could TL refrain from posting imbalance whining bullshit? We don't need another battle.net forum. What Protoss players are doing now is exactly what Zerg players were shitted on for doing some months ago. I'm not saying there is no imbalance, but we don't need this kind of whining here. There is ONE Protoss with admirable winrates and success in GSL. MC. It's not just like terran have a few more good players, a few more championships, protoss has nothing. When the whole race has had 1 capable player for a year since release, and now has fallen to code a, maybe there is a problem. You are exagerating a lot... Again, the same could be true for zerg and as far as im concerned there are a lot of other capable Toss and Zergs around. I also have to remind you that MVP also dropped to code A at some point, players can have a slump. I will not discuss this subject more, because my whole point was that we shouldnt have those whines here, justified or not.
What capable toss players? What are they capable of? Judging by GSL results a 50 percent winrate is about it.
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On September 09 2011 01:17 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 01:13 n0btozz wrote:On September 09 2011 01:06 Roggay wrote:On September 09 2011 00:36 Waxangel wrote:venturing into dangerous territory here, but I've gotta say, the current stats do seem to warrant a serious talk about P being underpowered, without sweeping it under the rug of balance whine. + Show Spoiler +5 P, 7 Z, 20 T in Code-s October. There's def something there. With this logic, the same could be true for zerg... Plus, I really feel like Terrans have more talented players in korea, and that a good portion of this racial distribution is due to that. Please, could TL refrain from posting imbalance whining bullshit? We don't need another battle.net forum. What Protoss players are doing now is exactly what Zerg players were shitted on for doing some months ago. I'm not saying there is no imbalance, but we don't need this kind of whining here. I can´t understand this community. It´s so "hush hush". People don´t want anyone to talk about balance issues, why is that forbidden? If there is a issue, it should be discussed, that´s the way to deal with issues. Discussing things is a way for people to get a "collective mind" and maybe find solutions, or maybe just check if they are the only ones feeling this way. You admit yourself that balance is an issue right now. A loud, outspoken discussion possibly could catch the ears of the forever deaf blizzard in-house balance team. Of course, rude posts about balance, angry posts about balance, off topic balance whining is one thing. But intellectual, well prepared arguments is something you shouldn´t be whining your self about. I say it´s a sign of "growth" and "maturity" that we can have "chilled" balance discussions. If you can´t do that as a civilized community, and need to bash on people for having those discussions, something is very much so wrong. I'm not bashing on anyone, but if people read this kind of balance whining on the front page of TL, they will be more inclined to come and whine and bash everyone on the LR threads for exemple and it will lead to a general deterioration of the forum. Very few good things actually come from a balance discussion. Yes, it can be good if everyone stay civilised, but its often not the truth at all. And I certainly do not want to see people whine about balance because they saw someone saying those things on the front page of TL.
Balance discussion (different from whining) has always been allowed.
What differentiates discussion from whining is that discussion is actually backed up by evidence and work put in to generate useful ideas.
This is balance discussion, not balance whining so I don't see what your point is.
Just because 90% of talking balance is whining (i.e. LR threads) doesn't mean you should discard a genuine attempt to discuss it.
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On September 09 2011 01:17 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 01:13 n0btozz wrote:On September 09 2011 01:06 Roggay wrote:On September 09 2011 00:36 Waxangel wrote:venturing into dangerous territory here, but I've gotta say, the current stats do seem to warrant a serious talk about P being underpowered, without sweeping it under the rug of balance whine. + Show Spoiler +5 P, 7 Z, 20 T in Code-s October. There's def something there. With this logic, the same could be true for zerg... Plus, I really feel like Terrans have more talented players in korea, and that a good portion of this racial distribution is due to that. Please, could TL refrain from posting imbalance whining bullshit? We don't need another battle.net forum. What Protoss players are doing now is exactly what Zerg players were shitted on for doing some months ago. I'm not saying there is no imbalance, but we don't need this kind of whining here. I can´t understand this community. It´s so "hush hush". People don´t want anyone to talk about balance issues, why is that forbidden? If there is a issue, it should be discussed, that´s the way to deal with issues. Discussing things is a way for people to get a "collective mind" and maybe find solutions, or maybe just check if they are the only ones feeling this way. You admit yourself that balance is an issue right now. A loud, outspoken discussion possibly could catch the ears of the forever deaf blizzard in-house balance team. Of course, rude posts about balance, angry posts about balance, off topic balance whining is one thing. But intellectual, well prepared arguments is something you shouldn´t be whining your self about. I say it´s a sign of "growth" and "maturity" that we can have "chilled" balance discussions. If you can´t do that as a civilized community, and need to bash on people for having those discussions, something is very much so wrong. I'm not bashing on anyone, but if people read this kind of balance whining on the front page of TL, they will be more inclined to come and whine and bash everyone on the LR threads for exemple and it will lead to a general deterioration of the forum. Very few good things actually come from a balance discussion. Yes, it can be good if everyone stay civilised, but its often not the truth at all. And I certainly do not want to see people whine about balance because they saw someone saying those things on the front page of TL.
I think you will find that there is something worse than lots of heated balance discussion/whine: People not giving a shit and just migrating to other games, because Code S is 75% Teran (just a random number), and the competition just feels like a joke. All of this whining means that people still care. LR threads full of Terrans applauding the intricate execution of 1/1/1 all-ins would be a lot worse.
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On September 09 2011 01:06 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 00:36 Waxangel wrote:venturing into dangerous territory here, but I've gotta say, the current stats do seem to warrant a serious talk about P being underpowered, without sweeping it under the rug of balance whine. + Show Spoiler +5 P, 7 Z, 20 T in Code-s October. There's def something there. With this logic, the same could be true for zerg... Plus, I really feel like Terrans have more talented players in korea, and that a good portion of this racial distribution is due to that. Please, could TL refrain from posting imbalance whining bullshit? We don't need another battle.net forum. What Protoss players are doing now is exactly what Zerg players were shitted on for doing some months ago. I'm not saying there is no imbalance, but we don't need this kind of whining here.
You're wrong in so many ways it's hard to describe... Balance talk isn't banned just because it's balance talk, it's banned because it's usually done in the wrong, unfounded arguments and most importantly, in the wrong places, specifically in LR threads.
In contrast, this thread exposes the problem adequately and opens up a decent discussion on the state of protoss in the current SC2 metagame.
Mindless whiners should be banned as per usual, but good discussion about a real issue shouldn't be discouraged, as it makes the whiners appear in all the wrong places.
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OK, this is ridiculous, Protoss using everything they had months ago.
Really? I havent seen Mana build a single Warprism or Carrier ever (he could have ofc, i havent seen him), warprisms are so incredibly good with mass gateway style, i played against it like 5 times today and managed to win 1. Also if a P gets the critical number of carriers lategame it's just GG, i think we have seen that in Socke vs Dimaga on metalo i think, i faced that transition sometimes, if you are on even grounds with P or the P is ahead, there s no way to win. Not to mention most tosses still neglect chronoboost a lot. Protosses have a lot of room still, they might be doing poorly, they will get a buff, but that line just made me angry a bit.
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On September 09 2011 01:17 Cloud9157 wrote:
This is just like what happened to MVP. He was ridiculous during the time he won his first title, but then he sucked and disappeared for a few months. Then he showed up and won the GSl super tournament.
He also decimated the competition at MLG Anaheim, dropping only a few games ( DRG, KiwiKaki, and MMA I think, maybe 1 or 2 more people). Then this GSL, he destroyed MC and then took down Nestea in RO16. This guy went through his slump and re-emerged even better and more dominant.
Is the problem actually racial balance? Perhaps, but I won't argue for or against it. Instead, I'm going to say MC needs more time to collect himself, maybe work on his mechanics a bit more. Though by the sounds of the one game against Puma at IEM, he made 1 mistake and lost a huge engagement, even after playing phenomenal. >.>
Idk, more time needed.
No one saying protoss sucks just because MC isn't doing well. No protoss is doing well and it's been like that for months. A few months ago, I saw not a word of balance whine when MC lost, in his fanclub, in LR threads. Now, people are getting sick of seeing protoss 1/1/1ed out of Code S constantly.
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Can't beleive i'm reading an article like this on TL, but i do fully agree (however I am a protoss player)
I have always felt that the majority of protoss units are not deep enough to be explored to uncover some hidden power. Their units are either too slow, too weak when not in a ball, or are only good in very specific situations (such as when oponent cant see them).
I dont think the PTR changes will help. Protoss is still a sitting duck until 10 minutes into the game.
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On September 09 2011 01:26 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 01:17 Cloud9157 wrote:
This is just like what happened to MVP. He was ridiculous during the time he won his first title, but then he sucked and disappeared for a few months. Then he showed up and won the GSl super tournament.
He also decimated the competition at MLG Anaheim, dropping only a few games ( DRG, KiwiKaki, and MMA I think, maybe 1 or 2 more people). Then this GSL, he destroyed MC and then took down Nestea in RO16. This guy went through his slump and re-emerged even better and more dominant.
Is the problem actually racial balance? Perhaps, but I won't argue for or against it. Instead, I'm going to say MC needs more time to collect himself, maybe work on his mechanics a bit more. Though by the sounds of the one game against Puma at IEM, he made 1 mistake and lost a huge engagement, even after playing phenomenal. >.>
Idk, more time needed. No one saying protoss sucks just because MC isn't doing well. No protoss is doing well and it's been like that for months. A few months ago, I saw not a word of balance whine when MC lost, in his fanclub, in LR threads. Now, people are getting sick of seeing protoss 1/1/1ed out of Code S constantly.
One could argue Huk has actually been doing well.
I mean, he hasn't reaches RO4 ever, but he is constantly getting to RO16. I remember when he first came out of his Up/Down matches: everyone said he would go right back into Code A, yet he stayed in Code S ever since.
But otherwise... I think you're right. I remember Alicia+HongUn getting to RO4, but thats about it... Most Toss are out by RO8.
I just hope things improve. Kinda depressing seeing no Protoss get much done.
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The problem with air in generall is that both terran and zerg can mass produce anti-air in a heartbeat. And then Air just looses its main point, why would you go air if everything can attack those units anyways? And now think about how Colossi which are just a better unit are also weak to anti-air, why would you ever get them? And also consider how they take forever to build and drain your minerals nonstop.
And prisms are not bad, the problem is that the units you can warp in are bad. I warp in 4 Zealots in your mineral line, it runs away, what now. Now think about Hellions or Marauders. Storm drops are kinda nice but theyre so late that they dont even matter that much, even if you can storm 20 workers, terra often kills them anyway and relies on orbitals...
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Nice article, it seems a lot of other comments are talking about balance so I guess this is an opportune time to do so.
With the exception of the finals and Killer being knocked out in group stages, IEM was amazing to watch.
I'm still reluctant about Protoss getting a buff, because for a while they absolutely stomped all over Zerg.
They're having serious problems against Terran at the moment and the games that I've seen of them playing Zerg seem to be balanced. I mean you had Genius take a game of LoSirA who has amazing ZvP and JYP dominated the StarCraft 2 'dong'. MC fell into Code A due to 2 very predictable games from him with his favoured Stargate opening, both of which Check and LoSirA knew very well.
When/if the WarpPrism buff and immortal buffs come in to place, I imagine they'll wreak havoc to Zerg bases/roach mix, especially since Zerg is having fungal growth nerfed. But still not provide much to help in the way of the 1-1-1 (that I know of).
It's Terran that needs the nerf, LoSirA got knocked up to the up/down despite playing many times better than his Terran opponent, the only Zerg in the Ro8 got there from all-inning against opponents who should really know better than thinking July will play 'safe'.
but saying that, PuMa is amazing and he could have still probably have won the IEM Cologne even if 1-1-1 was fixed, the only difference is the games would have probably been longer.
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On September 09 2011 01:23 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 01:17 Roggay wrote:On September 09 2011 01:13 n0btozz wrote:On September 09 2011 01:06 Roggay wrote:On September 09 2011 00:36 Waxangel wrote:venturing into dangerous territory here, but I've gotta say, the current stats do seem to warrant a serious talk about P being underpowered, without sweeping it under the rug of balance whine. + Show Spoiler +5 P, 7 Z, 20 T in Code-s October. There's def something there. With this logic, the same could be true for zerg... Plus, I really feel like Terrans have more talented players in korea, and that a good portion of this racial distribution is due to that. Please, could TL refrain from posting imbalance whining bullshit? We don't need another battle.net forum. What Protoss players are doing now is exactly what Zerg players were shitted on for doing some months ago. I'm not saying there is no imbalance, but we don't need this kind of whining here. I can´t understand this community. It´s so "hush hush". People don´t want anyone to talk about balance issues, why is that forbidden? If there is a issue, it should be discussed, that´s the way to deal with issues. Discussing things is a way for people to get a "collective mind" and maybe find solutions, or maybe just check if they are the only ones feeling this way. You admit yourself that balance is an issue right now. A loud, outspoken discussion possibly could catch the ears of the forever deaf blizzard in-house balance team. Of course, rude posts about balance, angry posts about balance, off topic balance whining is one thing. But intellectual, well prepared arguments is something you shouldn´t be whining your self about. I say it´s a sign of "growth" and "maturity" that we can have "chilled" balance discussions. If you can´t do that as a civilized community, and need to bash on people for having those discussions, something is very much so wrong. I'm not bashing on anyone, but if people read this kind of balance whining on the front page of TL, they will be more inclined to come and whine and bash everyone on the LR threads for exemple and it will lead to a general deterioration of the forum. Very few good things actually come from a balance discussion. Yes, it can be good if everyone stay civilised, but its often not the truth at all. And I certainly do not want to see people whine about balance because they saw someone saying those things on the front page of TL. Balance discussion (different from whining) has always been allowed. What differentiates discussion from whining is that discussion is actually backed up by evidence and work put in to generate useful ideas. This is balance discussion, not balance whining so I don't see what your point is. Just because 90% of talking balance is whining (i.e. LR threads) doesn't mean you should discard a genuine attempt to discuss it.
Nothing is genuine, you are always tempted to defend the race you play, but that is not my point. My point was that TL writers should remain as neutral as they can, because article like that will lead some people to blindly whine about balance without thinking, just because they read it on TL.
Additionally, I have no problem with a proper balance discussion, but it should be centered around the game and the matchups, and what actually happens in game. The fact that MC is slumping has nothing to do with a proper balance discussion. For exemple, this thread is the right way to do it imo.
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On September 09 2011 01:26 Geo.Rion wrote:
OK, this is ridiculous, Protoss using everything they had months ago.
Really? I havent seen Mana build a single Warprism or Carrier ever (he could have ofc, i havent seen him), warprisms are so incredibly good with mass gateway style, i played against it like 5 times today and managed to win 1. Also if a P gets the critical number of carriers lategame it's just GG, i think we have seen that in Socke vs Dimaga on metalo i think, i faced that transition sometimes, if you are on even grounds with P or the P is ahead, there s no way to win. Not to mention most tosses still neglect chronoboost a lot. Protosses have a lot of room still, they might be doing poorly, they will get a buff, but that line just made me angry a bit.
What are you even talking about?...Carriers suck at the moment cause they build WAY too slow, and tech switching for protoss is so epic-ly slow that you can´t really do it properly vs terran...and ofc vikings pretty much decimate carriers...
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On September 09 2011 01:26 Geo.Rion wrote:
OK, this is ridiculous, Protoss using everything they had months ago.
Really? I havent seen Mana build a single Warprism or Carrier ever (he could have ofc, i havent seen him), warprisms are so incredibly good with mass gateway style, i played against it like 5 times today and managed to win 1. Also if a P gets the critical number of carriers lategame it's just GG, i think we have seen that in Socke vs Dimaga on metalo i think, i faced that transition sometimes, if you are on even grounds with P or the P is ahead, there s no way to win. Not to mention most tosses still neglect chronoboost a lot. Protosses have a lot of room still, they might be doing poorly, they will get a buff, but that line just made me angry a bit.
Warprism are more used now. JYP used it in up&down matches, but hero and MC use it too. It requires an excellent micro with very high risks, because it can be sniped so easily. Carriers are just bad, vikings counter them, corruptors counter them and they take an eternity to be built.
The fact that you lose games against warprisms are not interesting if you are not in GM (and the majority of the GM aren't even as good as code B players).
If you let protoss to have more than 5 carriers, then the problem doesn't come from the carrier but from the opponent who lets this happen.
And every protoss use their chronoboost if they are not bad. Sometimes you see pros having 75 energy on their nexus, but it is to counter a possible rush, to hit a timing push using it on something specific or waiting to scout.
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Fantastic article, though at first I didn't realize it was a write-up on the last IEM which happened a while ago. For a second I was worried I had missed an entire event ^^
Lots of people in here who complains about all the "whining". I'm more tired of those terran-players (cause right now the "whine" is aimed against terran) who searches every damn opportunity to get into a thread and call people "whiners".
Nothing in the article was whining. Its sad to see that terran-players can't even admit that their race AT THE MOMENT is f-ed up. It was the same thing couple of months ago when zergs was crushed protoss all the time and protoss-players came into every thread trying to get in comments such as "nomnomnom zerg tears!" and stupid shit like that.
You don't have to to be an indian to see the smoke signs in the sky: terran is the best race.
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On September 09 2011 01:31 unoriginalname wrote:
but saying that, PuMa is amazing and he could have still probably have won the IEM Cologne even if 1-1-1 was fixed, the only difference is the games would have probably been longer.
If the bolded is the case then it is just confirming that there are more problems with PvT than just 1-1-1.
You seriously think a Terran (who is very talented but just one amongst MANY in Korea) who can't even make it into Code A should be taking out the best Protoss in the world?
Even if they are both evenly skilled (possible given that the only determinant of skill we have is win/loss, which itself is flawed because it is under the assumption that the game is balanced), then there is something wrong with Terran attracting the most talented players and Protoss somehow only getting the people who do retarded shit.
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Protoss got hit by huge nerfs and never complained (because they were still winning). When other races decided to get better, these nerfs their ugly selves and now, voidrays suck, wargate is slow, HT are way worse...
If anything, they should let charge have a lower build time. It feel so sorry for Protoss who are hoping they aren't attack whilst charge is completing, because that timing is ridiculously abusable. Both Protoss and Zerg need a major overhaul. Zerg is quite bad vs Protoss turtle without infestors and Protoss is bad vs infestors. Protoss is bad vs Terran ghosts and 1/1/1 and Terran have the tools to find any solution to anything. Why not let Protoss have imba voidrays back? Maybe that way, Terran and Zerg can't feel safe behind 1 bunker or 3 spores anymore.
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I didnt really play back then, what made voids so imba? Wasnt Flux just a speed boost which required a fleet beacon?
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On September 09 2011 01:36 tiaz wrote:
Fantastic article, though at first I didn't realize it was a write-up on the last IEM which happened a while ago. For a second I was worried I had missed an entire event ^^
Lots of people in here who complains about all the "whining". I'm more tired of those terran-players (cause right now the "whine" is aimed against terran) who searches every damn opportunity to get into a thread and call people "whiners".
Nothing in the article was whining. Its sad to see that terran-players can't even admit that their race AT THE MOMENT is f-ed up. It was the same thing couple of months ago when zergs was crushed protoss all the time and protoss-players came into every thread trying to get in comments such as "nomnomnom zerg tears!" and stupid shit like that.
You don't have to to be an indian to see the smoke signs in the sky: terran is the best race.
<-High Random Masters
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I'm more of the side that Zerg is the best race (except on crappy imbalanced maps like Antiga).
I would venture to say Z>T>P, with more of P's downside being ZvP being highly difficult to win.
On September 09 2011 01:37 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 01:31 unoriginalname wrote:
but saying that, PuMa is amazing and he could have still probably have won the IEM Cologne even if 1-1-1 was fixed, the only difference is the games would have probably been longer. If the bolded is the case then it is just confirming that there are more problems with PvT than just 1-1-1. You seriously think a Terran (who is very talented but just one amongst MANY in Korea) who can't even make it into Code A should be taking out the best Protoss in the world? Even if they are both evenly skilled (possible given that the only determinant of skill we have is win/loss, which itself is flawed because it is under the assumption that the game is balanced), then there is something wrong with Terran attracting the most talented players and Protoss somehow only getting the people who do retarded shit.
PuMa's win ratio on TLPD in Korea was about 70% overall. Code A is very difficult to make it through--- there are a LOT of high level players so it should be expected many would struggle to get through (MMA, DRG, for example).
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EPT
