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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
Hello, it's been a while since I posted. I used to translate Korean articles into TL - and I am here to write why Koreans consider (which I think they are right) 1/1/1 of Terran is imbalanced or at least too strong. To be honest I have been frustrated by some threads false claiming about 1/1/1.
I will be quoting Gisado quite a bit. (those of you who haven't been following SC2 Korean community, he hosts Star2 Ready Action program from GomTV and also a map tester)
As a Protoss player there are two possible ways to hold off 1/1/1.
1. 15 Nexus
2. 1 Gate into an expo
Before I explain further I will answer some questions that I've read on TL today. This answer could be subjective however is correctly reflecting current Korean ladder trend.
Q : Why does a Protoss player take an expo against a Terran All-In?
A: The answer is simple. DPS units in 1/1/1 push is mostly marines which do not require any gas. With the help of MULEs they can pump out their main DPS units. Without an economic advantage from a Protoss player they can't pump out enough units to hold off 1/1/1 rush. It is very similar to Zerg taking an expo after pool against early 2 rax aggression.
Q : That's a lie ! I've seen Protoss player holding off 1/1/1 using 1 base colossus.
A : What Terran does in that case is contain a Protoss player with bunkers and seige tanks. (if Terran tries to go up a lamp when a colossi is out, then it is not a well executed 1/1/1. As the number of Seige tank increases it gets harder to break a contain. To break a contain you need to upgrade Thermal Lance, by that time Terran can get couple vikings to prevent colossus attacking bunkers. (Without Thermal Lance, Seige Tanks will out range Colossis that try to attack bunkers) Protoss will have to be forced out of their main.
Q : You can engage in Terran army before they contain you and hold it off
A : Very true, but then the second wave is impossible to hold off. They will be able to upto three waves with Marines + Banshees (or Tanks but Banshees are often used) from their main. You would have lost most of your sentries, stalkers or zealots then by the time the second wave comes, you can't handle the DPS of group of Marines. Suppose you have blocked all those waves, your minerals would've ran out too, Terran floats to a natural expo and keeps on mining and produce. This is often seen in many games of Gisado's stream.
with Terran's 24 workers - they get 840/240 per a minute while Protoss gets 680/240 (could be a slight variation) - considering Protoss army is about composition, with that much of incomes you can't get a good composition that can fight 1/1/1 army.
Hence to win against 1/1/1 you need to expand - either way.
Here is what Gisado has said :
"Considering that Terran does an 1/1/1 push on short rush distance maps, you don't really have to worry about 1/1/1 on Taldarim, Terminus and others. But on maps like Antiga Shipyard, Protoss players need to think whether the Terran will do 1/1/1 or not to hold 1/1/1 off you need to take an expo ASAP but Terran could always fake making it seem like 1/1/1 by hiding marauders and do a 2 rax expo to cancel the Nexus"
"People often forget that there are two hidden resources in Starcraft which are time and information. Protoss's viable way of get that 'information resource' is by 'consuming time' to make robotics or upgrade hallucination but by the scouting is over - it's late to prepare for 1/1/1. Protoss is forced to have a guessing game at the start on certain maps"
"On GSL, we do change maps and consider all other factors but on ladder, as MVP said that Protoss is having a very hard time"
So sum up, 1/1/1 is possible to defend against using above 2 strategies however that leave Protoss vulnerable for other Terran builds which Protoss can only figure out by guessing.
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Additional Comments
Q: 2 Gates into Robo - is still one basing, you obtain information too late. You need to hope that Terran mismicros
Q: Yes 1/1/1 is like any other all-in that is strong. However what distinguishes 1/1/1 from any other all in is constant output of marines. when 4 Gate fails, you can't keep pumping out high amout of stalkers - when your baneling all-in fails - you can't keep making banelings. For 1/1/1 - Terran has a CONSTANT RATE of Marine output which is all you require for the second and third wave
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qk1jX.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PfZW8.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0FGtD.jpg)
These are the three screen shots I wanted to added. 2 pylons, basic warp gate research, a gateway. Possible resource maintained without spending on anything at 8:00, 9:00, 9:30. Do the math before you TheoryCraft impossible.
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Hmm very interesting -- wonder if any NA/EU pros would comment on this
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pLEzA.jpg)
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So from this I understand that it is impossible to hold 1/1/1 without being vulnerable to another allins
15 nexus - marine + scv allin ( you pray that terran won't scout you quick enough )
1 gate expo - we all know what happens here right?
I'm now waiting for some dude to say that koreans don't really experiment with new stuff and there is an easy way to stop that just they haven't figured it out yet
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master P here, it requires minimal skill to pull off and has a 90%+ winrate, seems pretty imbalanced to me.
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On August 22 2011 05:55 MeanMike wrote:
master P here, it requires minimal skill to pull off and has a 90%+ winrate, seems pretty imbalanced to me.
Link to 90% stat?
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Reminds me of Idras complaints about the situation that zerg were (are?) in, in that there are loads of different powerful rushes they have to be able to defend against but can't scout efficiently enough to figure out what's happening until it's too late.
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Excellent.
I'd just like to add, that a 1 Gate FE into Robo is, just like the OP describes it, a "way to hold it off". It's not anywhere close to a counter. Protoss pretty much needs to outplay the Terran after opening like that to hold the push.
Nexus first is a counter, because the economic advantage is so huge, that it overcomes the efficiency of the Terran 1/1/1 army. However, it's impossible to use on 2 player maps, and quite risky even on Terminus or TDA.
On August 22 2011 05:55 KristianJS wrote:
Reminds me of Idras complaints about the situation that zerg were (are?) in, in that there are loads of different powerful rushes they have to be able to defend against but can't scout efficiently enough to figure out what's happening until it's too late.
Well, it's not exactly the same. If a Terran tells a Zerg "I'm going to use all-in X" before a game, then the Zerg will absolutely crush it. The same situation with the 1/1/1 leads to Protoss kinda sorta barely holding after doing a super risky opening.
On maps where you can't 16 Nex without instantly dying, you can know the 1/1/1 is coming way ahead, and still lose terribly.
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Nice try troll.
However, I have seen alot of people recently complaining about this, I've faced it a few times and I also find it very hard to defeat, I think it's just one of those FOTM things when it'll start dying out soon enough.
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So it's basically a coinflip. Prepare for 1 / 1 / 1, or prepare for other builds. Guess wrong and you lose.
I'm starting to get used to this.
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The 1/1/1 against protoss remember me of the 5rax reaper against Z thing.
Noone knew if it was really imbalanced, but still.
Protoss will have to roll with that problem until HotS anyway...
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yes!!!!!! 1 1 1 build is op!!!!! jk jk jk
this buid is very hard to deal with crazy hard puma vs mc game we just saw puma sacked 20 svcs so it was 30 probes to 19 scvs and if terran can still win a game after that MC defended it as best as he could the 2nd wave is righ their just something is messed up with this build...
but then the problem us were do you begin to ''nurf'' this build if it comes to that with out affecting the build that much...?
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IEM this week showed that 15 nexus just isn't a viable build. Killer tried it every time against Terrans (probably to counter 1-1-1) and he just got 3-5 rax marine+scv all-ined which is almost impossible to stop. And 1 gate expand is really vulnerable to 2 rax which can usually force a cancel so I can see Gisado's point.
I play Terran myself but this build is just ridiculous.
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I must be the only Terran who has more success with bio play vs Protoss than 1-1-1. I still think bio is stronger, and 1-1-1 is not that hard to hold off. That's just my mid-master thoughts on it. I do think map specific it could be stronger though.
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On August 22 2011 05:57 vOdToasT wrote:
So it's basically a coinflip. Prepare for 1 / 1 / 1, or prepare for other builds. Guess wrong and you lose.
I'm starting to get used to this.
It's not a coin flip when Terran can scout which one you're doing and just counter it. See Select vs Killer.
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I played vs Hasuobs on ladder and asked him advice for dealing with the 1-1-1. He answered me: 'If terran executes correctly, terran has 90% win ratio on this map. Not even a-move, just seige.' It was a game on shakuras plateau.
When I offrace as terran, I defeat people with 1-1-1 allin I have trouble defeating in pvp.
On some maps I have an ok time holding it, but on others it is close to impossible, or you really need to outplay terran. Close air meta, shakuras plateau are the toughest ones.
Since the koreans pros have been struggling too, I expect a nerf incoming tbh.
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On August 22 2011 05:56 Toadvine wrote:
I'd just like to add, that a 1 Gate FE into Robo is, just like the OP describes it, a "way to hold it off". It's not anywhere close to a counter. Protoss pretty much needs to outplay the Terran after opening like that to hold the push.
This concept of a "counter that doesn't require you to outplay the other guy" is rather silly.
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On August 22 2011 05:56 Firesilver wrote:Nice try troll. However, I have seen alot of people recently complaining about this, I've faced it a few times and I also find it very hard to defeat, I think it's just one of those FOTM things when it'll start dying out soon enough.
This strat has been out for quite a while (Since beta I believe). Recent nerfs made it a fairly strong strategy against protoss imho.
Even if its an all-in build, it's pretty flexible. You can change up this build by addign raven or cloak or skip those two, it's too good.
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8748 Posts
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing.
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EPT
