EPTHoly shit.....that's freaking amazing!
IEM Global Challenge Cologne - "Dead Presidents" - Page 7
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Please try to keep the discussion civil. And while I can't ask everyone to write a huge essay like tree.hugger, try to write out your opinions in a substantive, well-thought way. | ||
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Mioraka
Canada1353 Posts
Holy shit.....that's freaking amazing! | ||
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HoldenR
Netherlands256 Posts
On September 08 2011 23:15 MandoRelease wrote: That's partly correct. However the overall style of zerg changed. They began playing much more drop-oriented build, trying to be much more agressive, droping baneling and so on. In all that you don't see that many infestors. The infestor buff helped a lot a specific style, but zerg also learned to use ling/baneling/roach differently. In one out of 50 games, you might see zergs do baneling drops. In one out of 200 games, you might see zerg do hydra/roach drops in a base, which are usually games zerg horribly loses. Zerg are barely doing anything different, and 90% of the reason why the match up actually changed is because of the huge infestor buff - and not just fungal, but also the speed change. | ||
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Fatze
Germany1342 Posts
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Rorschach
United States623 Posts
On September 08 2011 23:05 Kabi wrote: The bias on this article is quite strong. I agree that Toss is Up due a design flaw and Their scouting system being the worst of the worst, and a huge compromise. Most of toss tech tree is a gamble so they always go for robo... making them predictable. if you go for hallucination scout... it takes forever to get since you get warpgate first. If you dont you may not be able to fend off early attacks. If you dont go hallu first you can't scout bases in time to react. If you go hallu first you can react to anything, but any early pressure strikes far harder. If you go robo you are predictable. Still a biased article. I don't feel the article was biased (maybe your perception?). Nothing stated in it was untrue and it just pointed out the simple facts of the current state of things. | ||
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rastaban
United States2294 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On September 08 2011 21:40 EmilA wrote: Both would likely drop out of pro scene. MC is a 2-base timing pusher, that era is terran is long gone. Except he plays the best macro games out of any Protoss. Even Tyler and Arotosis have said he is the best Macro Protoss out there right now. | ||
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kittensrcute
United States617 Posts
 But seriously, well written article on the wild and wonderful adventures of MC. It is a little surprising to see the often sore subject of balance brought up by a TL staff member, though it was presented in a very well written article that discussed many good points. As a Zerg player, I often don't listen to Protoss whines of imbalance, instead preferring to keep my head up my ass and insist that in fact Protoss is the race in need of nerfs.I never seriously thought that Protoss was vastly better than Zerg at any point, but for awhile many Protoss players understood the early game and mid game timing attacks better (led by the one and only MC). Now it's painful to see any ZvP games because both seem to be dying races, though maybe people are right and the current Protoss generation lacks creativity and game understanding. Who knows? Only time will tell. P.S. Let's cuddle when you're back from Oslo | ||
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Thorn Raven
United States126 Posts
Something about the current Protoss strategies seem so one-dimensional and thus, predictable. Sure their late-game is terrifying, but it is getting easier and easier to prevent them from getting that far. With the incoming Protoss buffs in 1.4, I hope that we can see a fresh outlook develop on the Protoss' state of balance. Perhaps many new strategies will be created. I am looking forward to it. | ||
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MandoRelease
France374 Posts
On September 08 2011 23:22 HoldenR wrote: In one out of 50 games, you might see zergs do baneling drops. In one out of 200 games, you might see zerg do hydra/roach drops in a base, which are usually games zerg horribly loses. Zerg are barely doing anything different, and 90% of the reason why the match up actually changed is because of the huge infestor buff - and not just fungal, but also the speed change. I disagree with these numbers. Saying that the Zerg's styles have barely changed, and Z just wins by using infestors seems a bit much. The buff certainly helped, but let's not reduce the match up to that. But well, that's not really important. Few months ago, P complained about Z whining, but they're doing the exact same thing now. Ofc there's some issues with the current state of P, but all that whining is unnecessary. The situations are exactly the same. Z needed a buff back then (which btw was not acknowledged by P), P needs a buff now. All I see is that many P promote the high road when they're on the good side of the match up. When they're on the other side, then suddenly it becomes okay for them to whine. Fewer hypocrites would be great. | ||
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Condor Hero
United States2931 Posts
On September 08 2011 23:50 Thorn Raven wrote: This is a well articulated statement on balance. You have convinced me that Protoss is underpowered. Something about the current Protoss strategies seem so one-dimensional and thus, predictable. Sure their late-game is terrifying, but it is getting easier and easier to prevent them from getting that far. With the incoming Protoss buffs in 1.4, I hope that we can see a fresh outlook develop on the Protoss' state of balance. Perhaps many new strategies will be created. I am looking forward to it. I disagree Protoss late-game is terrifying. If you've seen Terran late-game (the Thorzain style now common among Korean Terrans) with a dozen Ghosts, lots of Vikings, and good upgrades, it's the Terran deathball that's absolutely terrifying. | ||
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gatorling
United States30 Posts
It brings to light a bigger question - if there are huge balance issues between the races, how much longer can SC2 survive as a professionally played E-sports game? When there is money on the line it's very important that all three races play evenly. I know it's a hard problem and often it's difficult to know if a win % skew is because of the meta-game state or because of a fundamental deficiency in a race.. but just looking at the professional level win rates (aggregated from TLPD http://i.imgur.com/Jvlvy.png ) paints a pretty dismal picture. All I can say is that the trend in TvP is disturbing. The win rates are diverging when they should be converging. Blizzard looks like they're doing a good job with TvZ though. At one point it looked abysmal with the win rate at nearly 60% for Terran and 40% for Zerg but by the end of 2011 maybe TvZ will converge at 50/50. PvZ is a slightly better picture with the win rates looking to stabilize at roughly 53/47 in Z's favor. | ||
pPingu
Switzerland2892 Posts
On September 08 2011 23:54 MandoRelease wrote: I disagree with these numbers. Saying that the Zerg's styles have barely changed, and Z just wins by using infestors seems a bit much. The buff certainly helped, but let's not reduce the match up to that. But well, that's not really important. Few months ago, P complained about Z whining, but they're doing the exact same thing now. Ofc there's some issues with the current state of P, but all that whining is unnecessary. The situations are exactly the same. Z needed a buff back then (which btw was not acknowledge by P), P needs a buff now. All I see is that many P promote the high road when they're on the good side of the match up. When they're on the other side, then suddenly it becomes okay for them to whine. Fewer hypocrites would be great. It was ridiculous to whine few months ago. Zergs did only one thing vs toss, roach hydra and sometimes they added corruptors. The colossus mix was created to beat this but zergs didn't want to do something else and we rarely saw T3 units by them.. The expands timing were just bad, as well as larva injection. It's just a few examples to show that zergs had many things to improve. But now players do fewer mistakes, and use a large mix of units. And now protoss who tried a large amount of different bo, tactics, mix,... can't find a solution and the other races don't have any to suggest. | ||
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GTLAllDayEveryDay
39 Posts
On September 08 2011 19:29 arterian wrote: Protoss vs 1/1/1: Your options are all terrible and you have to pick the one that is the least terrible, micro 100x better than your opponent, and hope they mess up to win. Brilliant, I agree completely. I believe it was IMMvP that said when protoss beats a 1/1/1 -- It's not that the protoss did something brilliant/right -- the terran did something completely wrong. | ||
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Olinim
4044 Posts
On September 08 2011 23:54 MandoRelease wrote: I disagree with these numbers. Saying that the Zerg's styles have barely changed, and Z just wins by using infestors seems a bit much. The buff certainly helped, but let's not reduce the match up to that. But well, that's not really important. Few months ago, P complained about Z whining, but they're doing the exact same thing now. Ofc there's some issues with the current state of P, but all that whining is unnecessary. The situations are exactly the same. Z needed a buff back then (which btw was not acknowledged by P), P needs a buff now. All I see is that many P promote the high road when they're on the good side of the match up. When they're on the other side, then suddenly it becomes okay for them to whine. Fewer hypocrites would be great. Pretty sure zergs were never at a 30 percent winrate, with 5 zergs in code S, unable to defend a simple 1 base all in...At least the deathball was lategame. There were ways around it even if it was unbeatable without the infestor. But now, protoss is just helpless in every aspect. No way to pressure a zerg, rolls over and dies to terran. | ||
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MandoRelease
France374 Posts
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sAw
965 Posts
Anyway, many (mainly T and Z players) people calling this article a "balance whine" - that's a bit absurd because, if you just take a look at the race win percentages at the top level of play (Korean GSL), it's crystal clear that something is wrong. Forget about your own skill, your own win ratios etc. We are talking about top tier SC2 and something is obviously amiss. Just look at some of the tweets Korean players made lately... To me it seems the meta-game has finally revealed some built in flaws, slight imbalance issues which need to be fixed asap, unless the community wants to watch a TvT fest every big tournament. The upcoming patch could change it up a bit, but I don't think it will be enough. Hope I'm wrong, though. Many hard-working, talented Protoss players are being punished for playing the "wrong" race at the moment and that's just not how it's supposed to be. Thanks for the article! (won't be following the topic, so don't bother quoting) | ||
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n0btozz
Iceland115 Posts
I have no idea why people are always banned for balance discussions, as long as they are making valid points and not just "omg protoss is UP, fkn nerf terran omg". Protoss is probably heavily under powered. I say that because PvT seems to be a joke. It´s almost an automatic loss on Xel Naga, and Metalopolis and Shattered Temple and almost any map that is not Shakuras or Taldarim. The 1-1-1 build just kills you if you are in close positions, either by air or ground. And if you want to defend from the 1-1-1, you will lose to 2-3 rax pressure. So the options are not really there for the protoss, except he just needs to hope for the 1/3 chance that he spawns in cross positions on shattered and Metal...and if it´s Xel Naga he needs to make a perfect guess, the only thing that´s worked for me there is taking a early second base off of 1 gate, a hidden base somewhere else, and that way try to win it from there against the 1-1-1. That is ofc a huges risk, but it can work. Against zerg, faster Hive techs are the problem. Of course that is because of the infestor buff. Now zergs can go for faster infestors, because even few numbers of them allow for a solid army that can hold the protoss off, and faster infestor switch allows for faster hive tech, which allows for faster broodlords. The broodlords weren´t that big of a deal 3 months ago, because they were appearing on the battlefield around the 17-20 minute mark. The protoss had maybe traded some army with the zerg with some aggression, and zerg´s therefor weren´t getting this money timing they are getting now. Late game PvZ, you hardly ever see the P winning these days because of faster broodlord timings, which poses a great threat because you need to sac so much to kill them, and you can´t handle the reproduction of the zerg. But imo that´s maybe more of a match-up where protoss just needs to "improve" their play, maybe doing some sort of carrier switches, a carrier build time buff and a general buff (for some reason they stop making the little flying things when they die...silly cause broodlords don´t, and broodlings cost 0)? I don´t know, but I know that Void Ray switches are not viable vs many broodlords/corruptors, because the corruptors take much less time to get on the field and are usually more upgraded then the void´s, so they just take too much time, and die too easily. Also a hydra switch for zerg happens so fast, and that demolishes the very very very slow tech switching of the protoss Those were my 5 cents, many will disagree, even though I said what I just said, I think PvZ isn´t that imbalanced, specially when infestors have been nerfed a little bit in next patch, I think that is all that was needed. But PvT, any blind man can see that it´s terribly broken, the Terran race is just too much better then the other 2 races, and has kinda always been :/ Time to fix it blizzard, get off your asses and let Terran feel how it is to play on a equal playing field for once :/ | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
This is becoming painful to read these forums, hope the patch is coming quick because the whine is even more unbearable than the imbalance now. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3683 Posts
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
On September 08 2011 22:32 flodeskum wrote: Do you honesly think that a former BW pro would have any trouble macroing as terran in SC2? Really? If you want to judge MC by his BW results and compare him to former BW players that are now terran, then yes, MC would be Code A/B. | ||
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