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Please try to keep the discussion civil. And while I can't ask everyone to write a huge essay like tree.hugger, try to write out your opinions in a substantive, well-thought way. |
On September 09 2011 00:29 MrCon wrote:
Wow, in every thread I open there is balance whine, in every section of TL, in every unrelated thread.
This is becoming painful to read these forums, hope the patch is coming quick because the whine is even more unbearable than the imbalance now.
Don't worry, soon there will be no protoss in players in Code S and we won't have any games to whine about!
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People need to stop telling protoss to innovate.. seriously give us ideas because if MC can't do it it's very likely no one can.
And please God stop saying carrier switches.. we shouldn't have to rely on gimmicky things
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United States33505 Posts
venturing into dangerous territory here, but I've gotta say, the current stats do seem to warrant a serious talk about P being underpowered, without sweeping it under the rug of balance whine.
+ Show Spoiler +5 P, 7 Z, 20 T in Code-s October. There's def something there.
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On September 09 2011 00:28 n0btozz wrote:
Best article in a long time on TL.
I have no idea why people are always banned for balance discussions, as long as they are making valid points and not just "omg protoss is UP, fkn nerf terran omg".
Protoss is probably heavily under powered. I say that because PvT seems to be a joke. It´s almost an automatic loss on Xel Naga, and Metalopolis and Shattered Temple and almost any map that is not Shakuras or Taldarim. The 1-1-1 build just kills you if you are in close positions, either by air or ground. And if you want to defend from the 1-1-1, you will lose to 2-3 rax pressure. So the options are not really there for the protoss, except he just needs to hope for the 1/3 chance that he spawns in cross positions on shattered and Metal...and if it´s Xel Naga he needs to make a perfect guess, the only thing that´s worked for me there is taking a early second base off of 1 gate, a hidden base somewhere else, and that way try to win it from there against the 1-1-1. That is ofc a huges risk, but it can work.
Against zerg, faster Hive techs are the problem. Of course that is because of the infestor buff. Now zergs can go for faster infestors, because even few numbers of them allow for a solid army that can hold the protoss off, and faster infestor switch allows for faster hive tech, which allows for faster broodlords.
The broodlords weren´t that big of a deal 3 months ago, because they were appearing on the battlefield around the 17-20 minute mark. The protoss had maybe traded some army with the zerg with some aggression, and zerg´s therefor weren´t getting this money timing they are getting now. Late game PvZ, you hardly ever see the P winning these days because of faster broodlord timings, which poses a great threat because you need to sac so much to kill them, and you can´t handle the reproduction of the zerg. But imo that´s maybe more of a match-up where protoss just needs to "improve" their play, maybe doing some sort of carrier switches, a carrier build time buff and a general buff (for some reason they stop making the little flying things when they die...silly cause broodlords don´t, and broodlings cost 0)? I don´t know, but I know that Void Ray switches are not viable vs many broodlords/corruptors, because the corruptors take much less time to get on the field and are usually more upgraded then the void´s, so they just take too much time, and die too easily. Also a hydra switch for zerg happens so fast, and that demolishes the very very very slow tech switching of the protoss
Those were my 5 cents, many will disagree, even though I said what I just said, I think PvZ isn´t that imbalanced, specially when infestors have been nerfed a little bit in next patch, I think that is all that was needed. But PvT, any blind man can see that it´s terribly broken, the Terran race is just too much better then the other 2 races, and has kinda always been :/
Time to fix it blizzard, get off your asses and let Terran feel how it is to play on a equal playing field for once :/
I actually think you got a point there with the carriers. You see them so late in most games and they have the reputation for being more a gimmick then anything else because they are too hard to get and take too long to build. Atleast a decreased buildingtime would be appropriate and maybe on for the fleetbeacon aswell. Buffing the unit itself I think shoudln't come with the same update just because the carrier is actually a pretty strong unit if you get a few of them together and I think Artosis once said they have the highest DPS in the whole game (dunno if that's true though...
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On September 09 2011 00:29 MrCon wrote:
Wow, in every thread I open there is balance whine, in every section of TL, in every unrelated thread.
This is becoming painful to read these forums, hope the patch is coming quick because the whine is even more unbearable than the imbalance now.
Sorry but 1.4 is not going to change much at all.
The reason there is "whine" is because there is a serious problem right now with SC2 turning into a game of only two viable races at the highest levels of play. You can guess which two I am referring to...
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On September 09 2011 00:30 EmilA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 22:32 flodeskum wrote:On September 08 2011 21:40 EmilA wrote:On September 08 2011 21:37 MurtiBing wrote:If MC switched to T he would have won GSL 5 times. My question is - what would happen if MaNa switched to T?  Both would likely drop out of pro scene. MC is a 2-base timing pusher, that era is terran is long gone. Do you honesly think that a former BW pro would have any trouble macroing as terran in SC2? Really? If you want to judge MC by his BW results and compare him to former BW players that are now terran, then yes, MC would be Code A/B.
Well that's just plain wrong.
And completely ignoring what I said. Do you not want to back your previous statement up?
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On September 09 2011 00:36 Waxangel wrote:venturing into dangerous territory here, but I've gotta say, the current stats do seem to warrant a serious talk about P being underpowered, without sweeping it under the rug of balance whine. + Show Spoiler +5 P, 7 Z, 20 T in Code-s October. There's def something there.
im so glad that finally an official tl article covers the obvious flaws in game balance, coming from war3 i was always jealous hearing about how balanced bw was supposed to be, this cannot be said about sc2 atm..
while i do have trust in blizzard, i think some changes sooner than later would be a blessing to the scene.
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+ Show Spoiler +
In regards to blizzard and their apparent "balance"
![[image loading]](http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp3ry2x6X71qby3d2.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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You know, I hope all the people that say "LOL MC IS BAD" take a moment and read this article.
Fucking fantastic read.
My favorite quote:
"It is no secret now that protoss is underpowered at the highest current level of play, but studying MC's record suggests that protoss has actually never been competitive in the entire history of Sc2."
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On September 09 2011 00:28 n0btozz wrote:
Best article in a long time on TL.
I have no idea why people are always banned for balance discussions, as long as they are making valid points and not just "omg protoss is UP, fkn nerf terran omg".
Protoss is probably heavily under powered. I say that because PvT seems to be a joke. It´s almost an automatic loss on Xel Naga, and Metalopolis and Shattered Temple and almost any map that is not Shakuras or Taldarim. The 1-1-1 build just kills you if you are in close positions, either by air or ground. And if you want to defend from the 1-1-1, you will lose to 2-3 rax pressure. So the options are not really there for the protoss, except he just needs to hope for the 1/3 chance that he spawns in cross positions on shattered and Metal...and if it´s Xel Naga he needs to make a perfect guess, the only thing that´s worked for me there is taking a early second base off of 1 gate, a hidden base somewhere else, and that way try to win it from there against the 1-1-1. That is ofc a huges risk, but it can work.
Against zerg, faster Hive techs are the problem. Of course that is because of the infestor buff. Now zergs can go for faster infestors, because even few numbers of them allow for a solid army that can hold the protoss off, and faster infestor switch allows for faster hive tech, which allows for faster broodlords.
The broodlords weren´t that big of a deal 3 months ago, because they were appearing on the battlefield around the 17-20 minute mark. The protoss had maybe traded some army with the zerg with some aggression, and zerg´s therefor weren´t getting this money timing they are getting now. Late game PvZ, you hardly ever see the P winning these days because of faster broodlord timings, which poses a great threat because you need to sac so much to kill them, and you can´t handle the reproduction of the zerg. But imo that´s maybe more of a match-up where protoss just needs to "improve" their play, maybe doing some sort of carrier switches, a carrier build time buff and a general buff (for some reason they stop making the little flying things when they die...silly cause broodlords don´t, and broodlings cost 0)? I don´t know, but I know that Void Ray switches are not viable vs many broodlords/corruptors, because the corruptors take much less time to get on the field and are usually more upgraded then the void´s, so they just take too much time, and die too easily. Also a hydra switch for zerg happens so fast, and that demolishes the very very very slow tech switching of the protoss
Those were my 5 cents, many will disagree, even though I said what I just said, I think PvZ isn´t that imbalanced, specially when infestors have been nerfed a little bit in next patch, I think that is all that was needed. But PvT, any blind man can see that it´s terribly broken, the Terran race is just too much better then the other 2 races, and has kinda always been :/
Time to fix it blizzard, get off your asses and let Terran feel how it is to play on a equal playing field for once :/
I agree with about hive tech being somewhat of a problem for toss. Ultra build time decrease will only add to the power of switching unit comps quickly in the MU.
I think a carrier buff would help drastically in the late game PvZ and maybe even reverting some of the Voidray nerfs either damage or range... Would rather see the carrier viable though..
PvT is turning into a joke with only two race becoming the only viable option at the highest level of play. I don't see 1.4 helping out all that much either...
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Another great quote:
If you haven't noticed that protoss sucks against terran, and has profound cost-efficiency difficulties against zerg, it’s because you're blind. It has taken imbalance on such an appalling scale as the 1/1/1 family of builds to cast MC down, to make him look mortal and prove once and for all that protoss is absolutely trash at the highest level of competition.
This article is written so well. ^^
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Really enjoyed this article. Thanks, Tree.Hugger!
Also, much respect for picking a thesis and arguing for it. It's nice to see a balance thesis argued for with numbers and evidence instead of mindless silver-league theory crafting.
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There's going to be 5 Protosses in October Code S- Ro32.
That's a new low, with the 2nd lowest being GSL3 with 6.
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I read that entire section about the fall of MC and I swear, if I could shed tears, they'd be flowing right now. Every time I watch MC lose a game despite playing beautifully, I feel deep sorrow for Protoss. Wonderfully written article.
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It really is a bleak picture when you realize that MC is the only protoss with real success in korea. All other protoss have 50 percent winrates, except puzzle who's winrate is boosted by his games being mainly in team invitationals and ICCup weeklys, so his win rate is negligible when we're talking about GSL.
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On September 09 2011 00:36 Waxangel wrote:venturing into dangerous territory here, but I've gotta say, the current stats do seem to warrant a serious talk about P being underpowered, without sweeping it under the rug of balance whine. + Show Spoiler +5 P, 7 Z, 20 T in Code-s October. There's def something there.
With this logic, the same could be true for zerg...
Plus, I really feel like Terrans have more talented players in korea, and that a good portion of this racial distribution is due to that.
Please, could TL refrain from posting imbalance whining bullshit? We don't need another battle.net forum. What Protoss players are doing now is exactly what Zerg players were shitted on for doing some months ago.
I'm not saying there is no imbalance, but we don't need this kind of whining here.
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Sad day for protoss, they seem to be doing alright in foreign tournaments (mana) but they are just getting destroyed in GSL
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On September 09 2011 01:06 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 00:36 Waxangel wrote:venturing into dangerous territory here, but I've gotta say, the current stats do seem to warrant a serious talk about P being underpowered, without sweeping it under the rug of balance whine. + Show Spoiler +5 P, 7 Z, 20 T in Code-s October. There's def something there. With this logic, the same could be true for zerg... Plus, I really feel like Terrans have more talented players in korea, and that a good portion of this racial distribution is due to that. Please, could TL refrain from posting imbalance whining bullshit? We don't need another battle.net forum. What Protoss players are doing now is exactly what Zerg players were shitted on for doing some months ago. I'm not saying there is no imbalance, but we don't need this kind of whining here.
There is ONE Protoss with admirable winrates and success in GSL. MC. It's not just like terran have a few more good players, a few more championships, protoss has nothing. When the whole race has had 1 capable player for a year since release, and now has fallen to code a, maybe there is a problem.
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On September 09 2011 01:09 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 01:06 Roggay wrote:On September 09 2011 00:36 Waxangel wrote:venturing into dangerous territory here, but I've gotta say, the current stats do seem to warrant a serious talk about P being underpowered, without sweeping it under the rug of balance whine. + Show Spoiler +5 P, 7 Z, 20 T in Code-s October. There's def something there. With this logic, the same could be true for zerg... Plus, I really feel like Terrans have more talented players in korea, and that a good portion of this racial distribution is due to that. Please, could TL refrain from posting imbalance whining bullshit? We don't need another battle.net forum. What Protoss players are doing now is exactly what Zerg players were shitted on for doing some months ago. I'm not saying there is no imbalance, but we don't need this kind of whining here. There is ONE Protoss with admirable winrates and success in GSL. MC. It's not just like terran have a few more good players, a few more championships, protoss has nothing. When the whole race has had 1 capable player for a year since release, and now has fallen to code a, maybe there is a problem.
You are exagerating a lot...
Again, the same could be true for zerg and as far as im concerned there are a lot of other capable Toss and Zergs around.
I also have to remind you that MVP also dropped to code A at some point, players can have a slump.
I will not discuss this subject more, because my whole point was that we shouldnt have those whines here, justified or not.
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On September 09 2011 01:06 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 00:36 Waxangel wrote:venturing into dangerous territory here, but I've gotta say, the current stats do seem to warrant a serious talk about P being underpowered, without sweeping it under the rug of balance whine. + Show Spoiler +5 P, 7 Z, 20 T in Code-s October. There's def something there. With this logic, the same could be true for zerg... Plus, I really feel like Terrans have more talented players in korea, and that a good portion of this racial distribution is due to that. Please, could TL refrain from posting imbalance whining bullshit? We don't need another battle.net forum. What Protoss players are doing now is exactly what Zerg players were shitted on for doing some months ago. I'm not saying there is no imbalance, but we don't need this kind of whining here.
I can´t understand this community. It´s so "hush hush". People don´t want anyone to talk about balance issues, why is that forbidden?
If there is a issue, it should be discussed, that´s the way to deal with issues. Discussing things is a way for people to get a "collective mind" and maybe find solutions, or maybe just check if they are the only ones feeling this way. You admit yourself that balance is an issue right now. A loud, outspoken discussion possibly could catch the ears of the forever deaf blizzard in-house balance team.
Of course, rude posts about balance, angry posts about balance, off topic balance whining is one thing. But intellectual, well prepared arguments is something you shouldn´t be whining your self about.
Paying for a game, that is severely broken, and 33% of it´s players are getting fked over by the game, is a reason for worry and discussion.
I say it´s a sign of "growth" and "maturity" that we can have "chilled" balance discussions. If you can´t do that as a civilized community, and need to bash on people for having those discussions, something is very much so wrong.
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EPT
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011 Global StarCraft II League October/Code S
