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Please try to keep the discussion civil. And while I can't ask everyone to write a huge essay like tree.hugger, try to write out your opinions in a substantive, well-thought way. |
Great article, much needed balance discussion. The discussion and the article might have been kept separate for classiness' sake, but since it seems to be here I'll comment.
I enjoy entertaining the idea that it's not so much P's weaknesses but T's strengths that are the root of the problem, and there is probably a measure of that; waxangel pointed out
On September 09 2011 00:36 Waxangel wrote:
...5 P, 7 Z, 20 T in Code-s October...
That being said, I remember a time when Zerg was struggling while Terran and Protoss stood on fairly even footing (http://i.imgur.com/bdP2e.png see march) and many defiant and stubborn protoss would refused to accept that something was amiss, while other protoss' hearts went out to the Zerg race in sympathy. That didn't stop them from walloping zergs with late game unit comps that seemed all but unstoppable, they just did it with a somewhat guilty conscience. Patches came, caster buffs and nerfs were dealt for a whole slew of reasons, (it wasn't really talked about that Sheth had 80% wins ZvP as of march) and eventually the Zerg race pulled itself up by its bootstraps (or a roach ling timing, can't quite recall which). The situation that is demonstrated on that sexy graph with numbers and percentages that we all see a bazillion times on TL when a race is slumping was solved not only by a patch and not only by player resolve, but by both in some measure. The colors are different, but the math is very similar to the zerg conundrum back in march. So yes, I think protoss could use a patch. Incidentally, 1.4 is in PTR. I also think we could use more practice. Incidentally, if you're reading this and, like me, are a protoss user, you're sitting in front of your keyboard with a shred of spare time. Unless you've got some newfangled ios or droid digimaxiwhateverthefuckpad. That's beside the point.
The point is, glorious victory incoming. High chance of whining between now and then.
EDIT: Spelling
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On September 09 2011 01:35 n0btozz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 01:26 Geo.Rion wrote:
OK, this is ridiculous, Protoss using everything they had months ago.
Really? I havent seen Mana build a single Warprism or Carrier ever (he could have ofc, i havent seen him), warprisms are so incredibly good with mass gateway style, i played against it like 5 times today and managed to win 1. Also if a P gets the critical number of carriers lategame it's just GG, i think we have seen that in Socke vs Dimaga on metalo i think, i faced that transition sometimes, if you are on even grounds with P or the P is ahead, there s no way to win. Not to mention most tosses still neglect chronoboost a lot. Protosses have a lot of room still, they might be doing poorly, they will get a buff, but that line just made me angry a bit. What are you even talking about?...Carriers suck at the moment cause they build WAY too slow, and tech switching for protoss is so epic-ly slow that you can´t really do it properly vs terran...and ofc vikings pretty much decimate carriers...
If using Carriers in any match-up was viable I can guarantee it would have happened already. Anybody seriously suggesting Carriers as a solution to any match-up is either trolling or Silver/Bronze. Carriers build at such an astoundingly slow rate and fulfil almost the same role as the Colossus with the added effect of being weak to Marines, some of the most costeffective units in the game.
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On September 09 2011 01:37 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 01:31 unoriginalname wrote:
but saying that, PuMa is amazing and he could have still probably have won the IEM Cologne even if 1-1-1 was fixed, the only difference is the games would have probably been longer. If the bolded is the case then it is just confirming that there are more problems with PvT than just 1-1-1. You seriously think a Terran (who is very talented but just one amongst MANY in Korea) who can't even make it into Code A should be taking out the best Protoss in the world? Even if they are both evenly skilled (possible given that the only determinant of skill we have is win/loss, which itself is flawed because it is under the assumption that the game is balanced), then there is something wrong with Terran attracting the most talented players and Protoss somehow only getting the people who do retarded shit.
You mean like DongRaeGu taking out nearly everyone despite being in Code B? Because no way that Code B players should be defeating the best players in the world...
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On September 09 2011 01:36 pPingu wrote:
If you let protoss to have more than 5 carriers, then the problem doesn't come from the carrier but from the opponent who lets this happen.
This. Carriers are a very slow, very costly tech path that leaves you wide open, and can be adequately prepared against if scouted at any point in the looong timing window it takes to achieve critical mass.
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On September 09 2011 01:46 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 01:35 n0btozz wrote:On September 09 2011 01:26 Geo.Rion wrote:
OK, this is ridiculous, Protoss using everything they had months ago.
Really? I havent seen Mana build a single Warprism or Carrier ever (he could have ofc, i havent seen him), warprisms are so incredibly good with mass gateway style, i played against it like 5 times today and managed to win 1. Also if a P gets the critical number of carriers lategame it's just GG, i think we have seen that in Socke vs Dimaga on metalo i think, i faced that transition sometimes, if you are on even grounds with P or the P is ahead, there s no way to win. Not to mention most tosses still neglect chronoboost a lot. Protosses have a lot of room still, they might be doing poorly, they will get a buff, but that line just made me angry a bit. What are you even talking about?...Carriers suck at the moment cause they build WAY too slow, and tech switching for protoss is so epic-ly slow that you can´t really do it properly vs terran...and ofc vikings pretty much decimate carriers... If using Carriers in any match-up was viable I can guarantee it would have happened already. Anybody seriously suggesting Carriers as a solution to any match-up is either trolling or Silver/Bronze. Carriers build at such an astoundingly slow rate and fulfil almost the same role as the Colossus with the added effect of being weak to Marines, some of the most costeffective units in the game.
Why quote me bro and saying the exact thing I just said  ?
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Wont actually call Puma a worse SC2 player than MC, lets not forget that Puma has won both the tourneys in which he has met MC, NASL and IEM. I agree that the 1-1-1 IEM finals might not accuratly represent skill in terms of the 1-1-1 being kind of imbalanced. But the NASL finals I think represented their accurate skill level, close, but Puma being better.
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by coincidence, i stood next to MC in the train after IEM day 2, he looked thoughtful.
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good article. straight to the point.
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United States33327 Posts
Just pre-empting it here, but keep the discussion civil. And while I can't ask everyone to write a huge essay like tree.hugger, try to write out your opinions in a substantive, well-thought way.
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On September 09 2011 01:49 Ingebrigtsen wrote:
Wont actually call Puma a worse SC2 player than MC, lets not forget that Puma has won both the tourneys in which he has met MC, NASL and IEM. I agree that the 1-1-1 IEM finals might not accuratly represent skill in terms of the 1-1-1 being kind of imbalanced. But the NASL finals I think represented their accurate skill level, close, but Puma being better.
I think the point is not so much whether or not Puma is a clearly weaker player than MC. It's more of MC basically representing the pinnacle of protoss play while Puma is one of very many skilled Terrans who, though amazing, still has a good ways to go before being able to be spoken in the same breath as Mvp/Nestea.
The thrust of the article and most of the arguments defending it is that MC isn't exactly in a slump. He and the very best of the protoss players are struggling against the current metagame and have lost control of their game - in the sense that they are losing games where they are hard pressed to be able to identify what they "did wrong" and how they could do better if they played the same game again. The protoss players in their A-game are still effectively rolling dice against the metagame - they can clinch some games, maybe stay in Code S, but I'm not sure I can name any protoss at the moment that I can with a straight face say has a reasonable chance of winning the next GSL.
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On September 09 2011 01:17 Cloud9157 wrote:
This is just like what happened to MVP. He was ridiculous during the time he won his first title, but then he sucked and disappeared for a few months. Then he showed up and won the GSl super tournament.
He also decimated the competition at MLG Anaheim, dropping only a few games ( DRG, KiwiKaki, and MMA I think, maybe 1 or 2 more people). Then this GSL, he destroyed MC and then took down Nestea in RO16. This guy went through his slump and re-emerged even better and more dominant.
Is the problem actually racial balance? Perhaps, but I won't argue for or against it. Instead, I'm going to say MC needs more time to collect himself, maybe work on his mechanics a bit more. Though by the sounds of the one game against Puma at IEM, he made 1 mistake and lost a huge engagement, even after playing phenomenal. >.>
Idk, more time needed.
not sure if you actually know what mechanics mean, Mc basically outmacros 99% of the people he plays against and holds nearly impossible to hold pushes.
although pvz is really hard atm, I agree that since MLG colombushis pvz has beenpretty bad, but his pvt problems are not the results of his slump or anything, just emp and 111
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I don't particularly disagree with the substance, but I can't believe I'm seeing some of the wording/phrasing choices and hyperbole in a featured article, such as "terran imba-ball" and also the notion that protoss players can not win a major tournament is just silly. Even with these supposed imbalances being present, it's a game of probabilities.
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United States663 Posts
I appreciate the effort to attempt to understand the current factors involved in our favorite players slump but I feel the language in which these options were analyzed could have been a bit less confrontational. Regardless, I was definitely compelled to read the entire essay as I too have been trying to understand the current state of affairs. I hope this thread will continue to offer up a healthy discussion on the subject at hand.
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Thank you for putting this article out. I guarantee you that for every 10 or so people who speak out against it, they do not represent the hundreds who would agree.
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This feels like something that cannot be fixed right now. The main issue with PvT is the early to mid game, 1 and 2 bases plays.
And I feel this is what happens when you put the race with the fastest teching, the most flexible and with the most harass options against the race with the slowest teching and least flexible tech tree with little option to harass.
These three factors are what are important for early and mid game, things like 1 1 1have no equivalent in the protoss arsenal because it is so slow to tech. Terrans get almost eveything going banshees while protoss get to chose between 3 techs route and be stuck with it until a later time of the game (at which point I feel there is a lot less imbalance if any).
On top of that terrans techs enables harass options.
This really looks like a design flaw to me in the tech trees, a lot more than units being weak. I don't think Protoss units are weak when you have everything available. These units work well as a group.
But that is the problem, you nearly need to get 1 or 2 whole tech path to be scary, until then you just hope a lot of things dont happen.
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On September 09 2011 01:48 n0btozz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 01:46 SeaSwift wrote:On September 09 2011 01:35 n0btozz wrote:On September 09 2011 01:26 Geo.Rion wrote:
OK, this is ridiculous, Protoss using everything they had months ago.
Really? I havent seen Mana build a single Warprism or Carrier ever (he could have ofc, i havent seen him), warprisms are so incredibly good with mass gateway style, i played against it like 5 times today and managed to win 1. Also if a P gets the critical number of carriers lategame it's just GG, i think we have seen that in Socke vs Dimaga on metalo i think, i faced that transition sometimes, if you are on even grounds with P or the P is ahead, there s no way to win. Not to mention most tosses still neglect chronoboost a lot. Protosses have a lot of room still, they might be doing poorly, they will get a buff, but that line just made me angry a bit. What are you even talking about?...Carriers suck at the moment cause they build WAY too slow, and tech switching for protoss is so epic-ly slow that you can´t really do it properly vs terran...and ofc vikings pretty much decimate carriers... If using Carriers in any match-up was viable I can guarantee it would have happened already. Anybody seriously suggesting Carriers as a solution to any match-up is either trolling or Silver/Bronze. Carriers build at such an astoundingly slow rate and fulfil almost the same role as the Colossus with the added effect of being weak to Marines, some of the most costeffective units in the game. Why quote me bro and saying the exact thing I just said ?
Sorry, had a confusion with quoting while getting myself bread and jam
I meant to quote the person before you and say... well, what you said, but for some reason I quoted you and then repeated the gist of your argument. Bleughhhhh. Suffice to say, I agree with you.
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On September 09 2011 01:13 n0btozz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 01:06 Roggay wrote:On September 09 2011 00:36 Waxangel wrote:venturing into dangerous territory here, but I've gotta say, the current stats do seem to warrant a serious talk about P being underpowered, without sweeping it under the rug of balance whine. + Show Spoiler +5 P, 7 Z, 20 T in Code-s October. There's def something there. With this logic, the same could be true for zerg... Plus, I really feel like Terrans have more talented players in korea, and that a good portion of this racial distribution is due to that. Please, could TL refrain from posting imbalance whining bullshit? We don't need another battle.net forum. What Protoss players are doing now is exactly what Zerg players were shitted on for doing some months ago. I'm not saying there is no imbalance, but we don't need this kind of whining here. I can´t understand this community. It´s so "hush hush". People don´t want anyone to talk about balance issues, why is that forbidden? If there is a issue, it should be discussed, that´s the way to deal with issues. Discussing things is a way for people to get a "collective mind" and maybe find solutions, or maybe just check if they are the only ones feeling this way. You admit yourself that balance is an issue right now. A loud, outspoken discussion possibly could catch the ears of the forever deaf blizzard in-house balance team. Of course, rude posts about balance, angry posts about balance, off topic balance whining is one thing. But intellectual, well prepared arguments is something you shouldn´t be whining your self about. Paying for a game, that is severely broken, and 33% of it´s players are getting fked over by the game, is a reason for worry and discussion. I say it´s a sign of "growth" and "maturity" that we can have "chilled" balance discussions. If you can´t do that as a civilized community, and need to bash on people for having those discussions, something is very much so wrong.
There are two problems with discussing balancing the first being that people are biased if you think they don't you have to think about your view of the human race. It's natural to defend want you align with (in this case a race in SC2) and even if you want to block out any affiliation to it your subconscience won't let you do that. Also balancing issues at high level play should be discussed by high level players. Artosis said it best: Just from watching the game you won't get complete understanding of the game.
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On September 09 2011 01:46 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 01:35 n0btozz wrote:On September 09 2011 01:26 Geo.Rion wrote:
OK, this is ridiculous, Protoss using everything they had months ago.
Really? I havent seen Mana build a single Warprism or Carrier ever (he could have ofc, i havent seen him), warprisms are so incredibly good with mass gateway style, i played against it like 5 times today and managed to win 1. Also if a P gets the critical number of carriers lategame it's just GG, i think we have seen that in Socke vs Dimaga on metalo i think, i faced that transition sometimes, if you are on even grounds with P or the P is ahead, there s no way to win. Not to mention most tosses still neglect chronoboost a lot. Protosses have a lot of room still, they might be doing poorly, they will get a buff, but that line just made me angry a bit. What are you even talking about?...Carriers suck at the moment cause they build WAY too slow, and tech switching for protoss is so epic-ly slow that you can´t really do it properly vs terran...and ofc vikings pretty much decimate carriers... If using Carriers in any match-up was viable I can guarantee it would have happened already. Anybody seriously suggesting Carriers as a solution to any match-up is either trolling or Silver/Bronze. Carriers build at such an astoundingly slow rate and fulfil almost the same role as the Colossus with the added effect of being weak to Marines, some of the most costeffective units in the game.
It's not even about the tech switch being slow, it's more about the cost and practicality.
It costs a LOT to get that first carriers out. Guess what, terran will almost always have a reactor starport because it's already vital even while excluding carriers. The problem is while carriers are costly, they can be countered way too easy. It was the same thing with warp prisms to an extent before (not so much anymore) because when toss gets colossus, terran already has vikings, rendering warp prisms near useless. However, you can see that warp prisms are more viable in PvT nowadays because the game has transitioned from colossus to archon/hts. You never know when these transitions will happen that makes something viable when it wasn't before. However, as of now, carriers will never be viable without a patch/expansion because reactor starport/vikings will almost ALWAYS be a part of the terran infrastructure.
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always felt protoss were incredibly weak ever since i started playing. terran units like marauders and banshees raped all the protoss units with ease. but i figured i was just a noob scrub (cause i am).
good to see i am vindicated.
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On September 09 2011 01:35 n0btozz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 01:26 Geo.Rion wrote:
OK, this is ridiculous, Protoss using everything they had months ago.
Really? I havent seen Mana build a single Warprism or Carrier ever (he could have ofc, i havent seen him), warprisms are so incredibly good with mass gateway style, i played against it like 5 times today and managed to win 1. Also if a P gets the critical number of carriers lategame it's just GG, i think we have seen that in Socke vs Dimaga on metalo i think, i faced that transition sometimes, if you are on even grounds with P or the P is ahead, there s no way to win. Not to mention most tosses still neglect chronoboost a lot. Protosses have a lot of room still, they might be doing poorly, they will get a buff, but that line just made me angry a bit. What are you even talking about?...Carriers suck at the moment cause they build WAY too slow, and tech switching for protoss is so epic-ly slow that you can´t really do it properly vs terran...and ofc vikings pretty much decimate carriers...
Thank you im 1.1k masters. Carriers dont suck, and to clear it up, if it wasnt obvious im talking PvZ, i didnt suggest go carriers off of 1 base or 2. I m talking lategame, and i gave an example, and there were more pro games, that one was relatively recently. I played vs carriers and lost, i provide you with an opinion based on experience and giving a pro game example, you reply with trashtalk and saying they build slow. wow.
Angry with PvT? by all means, start a petition to nerf tanks or banshees, i ll sign it, but if my logo or the fact taht im talking about a Dimaga game didnt give away that i m talking about PvZ, i have bad news for you
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EPT
