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IEM Global Challenge Cologne - "Dead Presidents" - Page 12

Forum Index > News
557 CommentsPost a Reply
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Please try to keep the discussion civil. And while I can't ask everyone to write a huge essay like tree.hugger, try to write out your opinions in a substantive, well-thought way.
Cr3scent
Profile Joined August 2010
43 Posts
September 08 2011 18:07 GMT
#221
It's more about Protoss as a race than MC in particular to me. Protoss is in a slump - the race is much more stagnant and straightforward in its terms of play than the other two. Almost every game as protoss winds up with more or less of the same unit composition, based upon micro to win battles. But recently, the metagame has shifted in a direction that makes Protoss seem especially helpless in some regards. The infestor zergling play from Zerg and baneling bombs are two examples that I see in which Protoss has an especially hard time in dealing with. Compared to the other races, Protoss really has no real "hard" counters. Everything Protoss does is relied on micro, yet there are so many ways terran and zerg can limit or shut down a protoss' ability to do so. Fungal growth locks the entire ball to be wrecked by zerglings. Neural parasite prevents colossi micro to get easy snipes. Good EMPs render HTs and sentries useless. For these, Protoss has no real answers. As other race players get better with initiating and utilizing such strategies, Protoss is left in the dust because there's simply too little to do about it.
Qaatar
Profile Joined January 2011
1409 Posts
September 08 2011 18:07 GMT
#222
On September 09 2011 03:01 Olinim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 02:47 Qaatar wrote:
I don't see how anyone could agree with this: "MC has been quoted on occasion as having said that, if he played terran, he'd have won five championships. After watching him out-micro his opponent at IEM and still lose, out-multitask his opponent at IEM and still lose, and then go absolutely nuts and use a strategy whose gaping flaws a platinum player could identify in the third game, I believe him."

What a nice, underhanded, slap in the face to every other T player . Has MC impressed people so much with his mechanics and decision-making that, if he was a T player, he would be at least 2x better (and luckier) than MVP or Bomber? I doubt even Flash would be able to accomplish such feats, given the volatility of this game.

Disregarding the obvious hyperbole and speculation here, as another poster stated, this reminds me a lot of Stork saying if he played T, he would beat Flash (in accomplishments). I don't know how serious either of these guys (Stork and MC, and I hold Stork in much higher esteem than MC) were when they made such statements, but they're silly and ridiculous.

Don't you have to eventually wonder why 1 year after release MC dwarfs other protoss players in terms of accomplishments and is the ONLY protoss to have success in korea? Not saying MC is flash but don't you think he probably would have done even better as T?(the race that has dominated the majority of the game)


Or he might not even be as successful as he is now, since T requires a different mindset and playstyle. The point is, it's impossible to speculate, but just from a neutral and objective point of view, I fail to see exactly where MC's advantage in mechanics, decision-making, and multitasking are, compared to his other top level peers playing other races.

Then again, that might have much to do with the P race itself, limiting possibilities, but that brings us again to the original point: speculation like this is stupid, impossible, and ridiculous to begin with.
pcL.Nomad
Profile Joined February 2011
United States24 Posts
September 08 2011 18:07 GMT
#223
even in code a MC will always be the president of my heart <3
The Terran 111 wins exactly 111% of the time
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
September 08 2011 18:11 GMT
#224
On September 09 2011 03:05 Roxy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 03:01 OlorinTheWise wrote:
On September 09 2011 02:50 Roxy wrote:
How do you guys think the game would change if banshee cloak was removed from the game?

I think the one thing that is keeping down protoss is that we HAVE to go for robo-tech (obs out by what.. the 6 min mark?)

Not to comment on other aspects of balance, but do you think that if we didnt have the threat of cloaked banshees coming into our base, we would be able to focus on a straight up build that can defend vs everything else



Moving the Banshee Cloaking upgrade to the Fusion Core would almost assuredly be enough to balance Banshee openings.


That is an excellent idea!

At least it is an excellent idea at first glance.. it may be something akin to the reaper speed being moved to factory requirement.

I hate it when they remove stuff from the game, balancing the timing of it seems much more appropriate


It used to be at the fusion core.

I think it's a very viable balance change (back to the fusion core), but make it cost 100/100 instead of 200/200, and reduce the time it takes to tech imo.
Zzoram
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada7115 Posts
September 08 2011 18:11 GMT
#225
They should just buff Zealot/Stalker and move Sentry up to Citadel

Also, Banshee Cloak should be moved to Fusion Core
Olinim
Profile Joined March 2011
4044 Posts
September 08 2011 18:13 GMT
#226
On September 09 2011 03:11 Zzoram wrote:
They should just buff Zealot/Stalker and move Sentry up to Citadel

Also, Banshee Cloak should be moved to Fusion Core

lol...just...maybe if you buff zealots and stalkers by doubling their damage and health. Protoss early game with no forcefields...that will fix everything.
Zzoram
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada7115 Posts
September 08 2011 18:14 GMT
#227
Ok maybe don't move sentries, but how about make charge cost less or research faster? Or maybe add an upgrade for stalkers to do bonus anti-air damage or something
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
September 08 2011 18:14 GMT
#228
On September 09 2011 03:13 Olinim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 03:11 Zzoram wrote:
They should just buff Zealot/Stalker and move Sentry up to Citadel

Also, Banshee Cloak should be moved to Fusion Core

lol...just...maybe if you buff zealots and stalkers by doubling their damage and health. Protoss early game with no forcefields...that will fix everything.


Ahh... then the resurgence of 2gate PvZ.... *shutters*
Roxy
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada753 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-08 18:15:04
September 08 2011 18:14 GMT
#229
On September 09 2011 03:11 Zzoram wrote:
They should just buff Zealot/Stalker and move Sentry up to Citadel

Also, Banshee Cloak should be moved to Fusion Core


How to stop marauders? ><

Endless kite QQ
http://sc2ranks.com/us/941824/Roxy - Masters Protoss: "Respect my authoritai"
izgodlee
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada133 Posts
September 08 2011 18:15 GMT
#230
On September 09 2011 01:47 unoriginalname wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 01:37 Condor Hero wrote:
On September 09 2011 01:31 unoriginalname wrote:
but saying that, PuMa is amazing and he could have still probably have won the IEM Cologne even if 1-1-1 was fixed, the only difference is the games would have probably been longer.

If the bolded is the case then it is just confirming that there are more problems with PvT than just 1-1-1.
You seriously think a Terran (who is very talented but just one amongst MANY in Korea) who can't even make it into Code A should be taking out the best Protoss in the world?

Even if they are both evenly skilled (possible given that the only determinant of skill we have is win/loss, which itself is flawed because it is under the assumption that the game is balanced), then there is something wrong with Terran attracting the most talented players and Protoss somehow only getting the people who do retarded shit.


You mean like DongRaeGu taking out nearly everyone despite being in Code B? Because no way that Code B players should be defeating the best players in the world...


drg got owned by tester, 2-0, and tester just dropped to code A. I dont see your point.
Deekin[
Profile Joined December 2010
Serbia1713 Posts
September 08 2011 18:15 GMT
#231
Reading this thread makes me wonder if the text writer likes to watch soap operas?
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ CJ Entus fighting! I am a Leta, Hydra, Mind and (ofcourse) Firebathero fan. (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
tiaz
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden231 Posts
September 08 2011 18:17 GMT
#232
On September 09 2011 01:42 SniXSniPe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 01:36 tiaz wrote:
Fantastic article, though at first I didn't realize it was a write-up on the last IEM which happened a while ago. For a second I was worried I had missed an entire event ^^

Lots of people in here who complains about all the "whining". I'm more tired of those terran-players (cause right now the "whine" is aimed against terran) who searches every damn opportunity to get into a thread and call people "whiners".

Nothing in the article was whining. Its sad to see that terran-players can't even admit that their race AT THE MOMENT is f-ed up. It was the same thing couple of months ago when zergs was crushed protoss all the time and protoss-players came into every thread trying to get in comments such as "nomnomnom zerg tears!" and stupid shit like that.

You don't have to to be an indian to see the smoke signs in the sky: terran is the best race.


<-High Random Masters

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I'm more of the side that Zerg is the best race (except on crappy imbalanced maps like Antiga).

I would venture to say Z>T>P, with more of P's downside being ZvP being highly difficult to win.


Yeah, ok and I totally have no problem with your oppinion, I'm not against any discussion at all. Sorry if anyone believed that. What I'm turning against is the constant posting and accusations of "whining" which very often lacks any argument what so ever. In my opinion the fact that Code S next season will be a terran fest like no one ever has seen before is a valid argument. If theres 20 T, and not even 20 Z and P together, something is fishy.
Just popping in and saying "Stop whining", is NOT a valid argument in that debate.
Atleast thats my opinion.
"When you play, you have to start off with a mind to turn the game into a rape." - Iloveoov
Tanuki
Profile Joined March 2011
Russian Federation51 Posts
September 08 2011 18:19 GMT
#233
"The fall of MC", not only a gr8 piece of writing as usual, but I can QFT every word of it.
Also, Mana seems like a very nice guy. I used to consider him "plain" and uninteresting, but the few resent tournaments (eg. Assembly) completely changed my perspective. Besides, he is quite young even for e-sports, so looking ffwrd to seeing more of him in the future.
Photos are gr8.

Thanks again for the article. TL rocks (as always!))
Dikkbutt
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden193 Posts
September 08 2011 18:24 GMT
#234
On September 09 2011 02:02 moofang wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 01:49 Ingebrigtsen wrote:
Wont actually call Puma a worse SC2 player than MC, lets not forget that Puma has won both the tourneys in which he has met MC, NASL and IEM. I agree that the 1-1-1 IEM finals might not accuratly represent skill in terms of the 1-1-1 being kind of imbalanced. But the NASL finals I think represented their accurate skill level, close, but Puma being better.


I think the point is not so much whether or not Puma is a clearly weaker player than MC. It's more of MC basically representing the pinnacle of protoss play while Puma is one of very many skilled Terrans who, though amazing, still has a good ways to go before being able to be spoken in the same breath as Mvp/Nestea.

The thrust of the article and most of the arguments defending it is that MC isn't exactly in a slump. He and the very best of the protoss players are struggling against the current metagame and have lost control of their game - in the sense that they are losing games where they are hard pressed to be able to identify what they "did wrong" and how they could do better if they played the same game again. The protoss players in their A-game are still effectively rolling dice against the metagame - they can clinch some games, maybe stay in Code S, but I'm not sure I can name any protoss at the moment that I can with a straight face say has a reasonable chance of winning the next GSL.


I Cant even say a protoss im sure is gonna stay ni Code S, Would be hongun cause he just gets through time and time again somehow
howdy
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-08 18:25:53
September 08 2011 18:24 GMT
#235
On September 09 2011 01:42 SniXSniPe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 01:36 tiaz wrote:
Fantastic article, though at first I didn't realize it was a write-up on the last IEM which happened a while ago. For a second I was worried I had missed an entire event ^^

Lots of people in here who complains about all the "whining". I'm more tired of those terran-players (cause right now the "whine" is aimed against terran) who searches every damn opportunity to get into a thread and call people "whiners".

Nothing in the article was whining. Its sad to see that terran-players can't even admit that their race AT THE MOMENT is f-ed up. It was the same thing couple of months ago when zergs was crushed protoss all the time and protoss-players came into every thread trying to get in comments such as "nomnomnom zerg tears!" and stupid shit like that.

You don't have to to be an indian to see the smoke signs in the sky: terran is the best race.


<-High Random Masters

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I'm more of the side that Zerg is the best race (except on crappy imbalanced maps like Antiga).

I would venture to say Z>T>P, with more of P's downside being ZvP being highly difficult to win.

Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 01:37 Condor Hero wrote:
On September 09 2011 01:31 unoriginalname wrote:
but saying that, PuMa is amazing and he could have still probably have won the IEM Cologne even if 1-1-1 was fixed, the only difference is the games would have probably been longer.

If the bolded is the case then it is just confirming that there are more problems with PvT than just 1-1-1.
You seriously think a Terran (who is very talented but just one amongst MANY in Korea) who can't even make it into Code A should be taking out the best Protoss in the world?

Even if they are both evenly skilled (possible given that the only determinant of skill we have is win/loss, which itself is flawed because it is under the assumption that the game is balanced), then there is something wrong with Terran attracting the most talented players and Protoss somehow only getting the people who do retarded shit.


PuMa's win ratio on TLPD in Korea was about 70% overall. Code A is very difficult to make it through--- there are a LOT of high level players so it should be expected many would struggle to get through (MMA, DRG, for example).


I think people who play Random have absolutely terrible perceptions on balance, as they experience a completely different matchup than the rest.

I think Zerg is easier to play than Terran, but I garner Terran is slightly stronger than Zerg at the top level. At a level of merely "high masters" (assuming 1200+ pts), you're not good enough to fully exploit Terran, especially on NA ladder, yet you can much more easily exploit Zerg.

The reason why I don't like random users' opinions (personally), is that they don't experience the traditional builds other races use against them. And Zerg benefits the most, by far, from random. Protoss won't forge FE you, Terran won't 2rax you or gas first hellion opening you. It's far easier to play, consequently, which is a reason why Z is often cited as the OP race by random users, imo.

Just checked your profile, and I'd say 1100+ points counts as high masters regardless imo, so nvm about that earlier stated 1200 criteria :D.
Hikari
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
1914 Posts
September 08 2011 18:25 GMT
#236
Great write up, esp the part where MC's brain exploded.

"TeamLiquid agrees that protoss is underpowered"
I bet people would be referencing this article for a while....
cmen15
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1519 Posts
September 08 2011 18:27 GMT
#237
Great article overall, I thought hugger did a great job of explaining whats going on in high level play for protoss. It will be interesting to see the next step for protoss and what the BO's will be.
Greed leads to just about all losses.
Zzoram
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada7115 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-08 18:28:10
September 08 2011 18:27 GMT
#238
I wonder how people would react if most or all the Protoss get knocked out in Ro32 Code S October.
babylon
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
8765 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-08 18:33:32
September 08 2011 18:31 GMT
#239
On September 08 2011 18:01 Kishuu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2011 17:27 babylon wrote:
I don't think MC's PvT is slumping, since his PvT play is still as crisp as ever when he's not getting destroyed by the 1/1/1. (He could have beaten Jjakji if he hadn't clumped up his casters for some money-making EMPs, I feel.) We could probably talk about his PvZ, though; he used to be near-invincible in that match-up, but lately he can't even outplay good-but-otherwise-irrelevant Zergs.


If you think PvT is fine with all this 1/1/1 thing and this is the way it is supposed to be played, as tree.hugger said, you are blind.

Where did I say PvT is fine? I said I don't think MC's PvT has gotten any worse, implying that his recent losses have been due to the resurgence of 1/1/1 and the general realization that there are a fuck ton of ways to abuse the Protoss race's inability to actually do jackshit about anything.

Because the article was talking about the state of PvT and MC's fall, I decided to make a comment about the state of MC's PvZ, which is actually why he's in Code A. MC didn't drop down to Code A because of PvT -- as I said, Jjakji did not play perfectly against MC and could have been beaten had MC not clumped up his HTs -- he dropped down because he couldn't beat 2/3 of the Zergs in his pool, one of whom is, at best, simply "good." Saying that MC's in Code A because of PvT is absurd, given that his group was 1 Terran and 3 Zergs. He went to the Up/Down matches because of PvT -- whether or not the Terran strategies used were imbalanced is up for you to decide, as I can hardly remember anything that happened past MVP's contain -- but his fall to Code A had little to do with PvT and more to do with PvZ.
ondik
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Czech Republic2908 Posts
September 08 2011 18:41 GMT
#240
great article, agree with most of it..though I think normal users wouldn't get away without warning or ban with some parts haha
Bisu. The one and only. // Save the cheerreaver, save the world (of SC2)
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