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Please try to keep the discussion civil. And while I can't ask everyone to write a huge essay like tree.hugger, try to write out your opinions in a substantive, well-thought way. |
I think the current state of Protoss needs some looking at. MC won his championships off of new timing attacks, that have since been figured out. 6gate timing, and while it was slipped into the bug fixes, his 6gate mass ff's on bunkers actually caused the units inside to disappear once the bunker was destroyed, and zergs hadn't yet figured out how to defend 6gate.
Stargates after FFE used to deny a fast 3rd or force fast hydras. Doesn't do that any more as zergs have figured out the gasless way to hold a 3rd on most maps. Zergs are capable of having great econ now, while still retaining a fast 3rd. Coincidentally, a fast 3rd also allows zerg to hold gateway timing attacks more easily, and regardless of scouting info, infestors are always a safe bet against macro play. 3gate expo has been figured out, so both common protoss openings have been mostly figured out. 4gate doesn't really work any more against zerg. That leaves us with ungimmicky standard play. What does standard play get crushed by? Greed, and also infestors to a certain extent. WIthout the ability to punish greedy play with timing attacks, then we are left playing against a zerg who has an inherent economic advantage, and cost effectiveness advantage(note cost, not supply).
Terran, I won't go into details, but for a long time they were complaining about the combination of storm and colossus. That was back when they made like 2 ghosts in a 200/200 army. This gave them 4 EMP's to deal with 6-8 templar, and if they lost those 2 ghosts to feedback or otherwise, they would promply get rolled. Now though, it's often a dozen ghosts against a protoss army. People say to just feedback them all, but I can feedback about 6 per second IF they are in a clump. MC could probably do about 8, because he's much better than I am. There's also the range limitations, where EMP outranges feedback. With scan availability lategame, a forward observer gets sniped, and as a result many pros have one observer following the army around. However in order to see the ghosts coming cloaked, and react before an EMP goes off, it really requires the observer to be forward, which has the weakness above.
I'm not going to talk about 1/1/1 because I'd be hardpressed to talk about that civilly.
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Blatant QQ post on main page? really, TL?
Regardless of game balance, the emphasis of the article should be reflected by the title. At least rename the article "IEM results: Protoss buff imminent?"
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On September 09 2011 02:30 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 01:35 n0btozz wrote:On September 09 2011 01:26 Geo.Rion wrote:
OK, this is ridiculous, Protoss using everything they had months ago.
Really? I havent seen Mana build a single Warprism or Carrier ever (he could have ofc, i havent seen him), warprisms are so incredibly good with mass gateway style, i played against it like 5 times today and managed to win 1. Also if a P gets the critical number of carriers lategame it's just GG, i think we have seen that in Socke vs Dimaga on metalo i think, i faced that transition sometimes, if you are on even grounds with P or the P is ahead, there s no way to win. Not to mention most tosses still neglect chronoboost a lot. Protosses have a lot of room still, they might be doing poorly, they will get a buff, but that line just made me angry a bit. What are you even talking about?...Carriers suck at the moment cause they build WAY too slow, and tech switching for protoss is so epic-ly slow that you can´t really do it properly vs terran...and ofc vikings pretty much decimate carriers... Thank you im 1.1k masters. Carriers dont suck, and to clear it up, if it wasnt obvious im talking PvZ, i didnt suggest go carriers off of 1 base or 2. I m talking lategame, and i gave an example, and there were more pro games, that one was relatively recently. I played vs carriers and lost, i provide you with an opinion based on experience and giving a pro game example, you reply with trashtalk and saying they build slow. wow. Angry with PvT? by all means, start a petition to nerf tanks or banshees, i ll sign it, but if my logo or the fact taht im talking about a Dimaga game didnt give away that i m talking about PvZ, i have bad news for you
Carriers are not very cost effective. They can win PvZ if the opponent does not make mass corruptors, but that's just hoping your opponent doesn't know how to respond. There is a reason you don't see terrans busting out the battlecruisers vs zerg. And BCs make 30 seconds faster than carriers, move quicker, and have higher DPS.
one carrier: 120 secs
mothership: 140 secs
When one carrier takes only 20seconds less than a mothership, you know the build time is too long.
Then you compare carriers to colossi, which cost less and take only 70 seconds to build and do the same job (sans shooting up). If the zerg counters with corruptors against both colossi and carriers, why try to make the one that takes almost twice as long.
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Good article hope MC does great for the last part of this year i know he can make his comeback
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I don't see how anyone could agree with this: "MC has been quoted on occasion as having said that, if he played terran, he'd have won five championships. After watching him out-micro his opponent at IEM and still lose, out-multitask his opponent at IEM and still lose, and then go absolutely nuts and use a strategy whose gaping flaws a platinum player could identify in the third game, I believe him."
What a nice, underhanded, slap in the face to every other T player  . Has MC impressed people so much with his mechanics and decision-making that, if he was a T player, he would be at least 2x better (and luckier) than MVP or Bomber? I doubt even Flash would be able to accomplish such feats, given the volatility of this game.
Disregarding the obvious hyperbole and speculation here, as another poster stated, this reminds me a lot of Stork saying if he played T, he would beat Flash (in accomplishments). I don't know how serious either of these guys (Stork and MC, and I hold Stork in much higher esteem than MC) were when they made such statements, but they're silly and ridiculous.
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This article is insulting, "If you haven't noticed that protoss sucks against terran, and has profound cost-efficiency difficulties against zerg, it’s because you're blind."
Apparently, I'm blind. What happened to not balance whining on TL? LR threads have become such balance-whine cesspools (ok, they were bad before too, but it's so much worse now), and this article is fueling the anger.
This article makes me profoundly sad.
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holy shit thats an amazing article. Very well written thank you so much.
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How do you guys think the game would change if banshee cloak was removed from the game?
I think the one thing that is keeping down protoss is that we HAVE to go for robo-tech (obs out by what.. the 6 min mark?)
Not to comment on other aspects of balance, but do you think that if we didnt have the threat of cloaked banshees coming into our base, we would be able to focus on a straight up build that can defend vs everything else
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I guess this is meant to be an opionated article, and you know your going to get shit for sounding like a Protoss Whambulance. All the races go through shit like this, and it isn't because one player at super high levels isn't dominating.
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Great article. It's got balls.
But seriously though, protoss is in DEEP shit as of late.
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The article has a point. MC has been the only Korean Protoss to consistently play well. All the others have been failing quite epicly since the very beginning. A few lately have started to show promise like Puzzle and JYP but even then they aren't up to snuff yet.
Contrast that with the massive field of good Terrans and even Zergs and you have to wonder. Has Protoss just been too weak all this time, or do good players not pick Protoss? Since it's impossible to know if good players simply don't play Protoss, and nobody new has really come close to achieving MC level success, it's likely that Protoss is just too weak and MC can't cover up that fact anymore.
With only 5 Protoss left in Code S, and the former Protoss leader MC seemingly stumped by how to move forward, a Protoss buff sure seems like a reasonable response.
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On September 09 2011 02:30 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 01:35 n0btozz wrote:On September 09 2011 01:26 Geo.Rion wrote:
OK, this is ridiculous, Protoss using everything they had months ago.
Really? I havent seen Mana build a single Warprism or Carrier ever (he could have ofc, i havent seen him), warprisms are so incredibly good with mass gateway style, i played against it like 5 times today and managed to win 1. Also if a P gets the critical number of carriers lategame it's just GG, i think we have seen that in Socke vs Dimaga on metalo i think, i faced that transition sometimes, if you are on even grounds with P or the P is ahead, there s no way to win. Not to mention most tosses still neglect chronoboost a lot. Protosses have a lot of room still, they might be doing poorly, they will get a buff, but that line just made me angry a bit. What are you even talking about?...Carriers suck at the moment cause they build WAY too slow, and tech switching for protoss is so epic-ly slow that you can´t really do it properly vs terran...and ofc vikings pretty much decimate carriers... Thank you im 1.1k masters. Carriers dont suck, and to clear it up, if it wasnt obvious im talking PvZ, i didnt suggest go carriers off of 1 base or 2. I m talking lategame, and i gave an example, and there were more pro games, that one was relatively recently. I played vs carriers and lost, i provide you with an opinion based on experience and giving a pro game example, you reply with trashtalk and saying they build slow. wow. Angry with PvT? by all means, start a petition to nerf tanks or banshees, i ll sign it, but if my logo or the fact taht im talking about a Dimaga game didnt give away that i m talking about PvZ, i have bad news for you
The discussion here is mainly focused on: Terran imba, Protoss up.
I sometimes switch to carriers myself in PvZ, and i´m beating top of their league masters players in PvZ, but the problem is, if he made some corruptors, and we "trade army´s" pretty much, with me possibly coming out ahead, he just re-maxes with hydra/roach composition while i´m stuck with some carriers and gateway units. And carriers suck because they take so long to build and protoss invests heavily in them (late game, 4 stargates + Fleet beacon) that is 900 minerals and 800 gas just in the production facilities to get out carriers at a decent rate. On top of that every carrier costs 350/250. So let´s say I make 4 carriers at once, the build time is 120 in game seconds (2 minutes ingame...fml)...so when i´m done making my 4 carriers i´ve invested 4x350+900/4x250+800 = 2300/1800 minerals/gas just to get out my first 4 carriers. A valid point would be pointing out I would most likely have 1 stargate since earlier in the game, so the cost would "only" be 2150/1650 for those first 4 carriers to get out. And you might say I should only have 2 gates, the cost will still be epic, and I will get my first 4 carriers in 4 ingame minutes...that is a joke and if you don´t realize that then that´s probably because you don´t play protoss.
Now Carriers get crushed by: Hydras, Corruptors, Vikings, Marines. I go for them sometimes vs zerg late late game to counter heavy broodlords, if he made too many corruptors into broodlords, but really, the investment into a good switch is too much, since you will always just re-max right away with corruptor/roach/hydra, and my carriers are...well not operational.
The problem is, terran units already on the field crush carriers anyway, and zerg, if you can´t surprise them heavily with a fast tech switch, and fighting them close to their main, you really won´t get the job done with carriers.
That an answer you see fit?
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On September 09 2011 02:49 Ghanburighan wrote:
This article is insulting, "If you haven't noticed that protoss sucks against terran, and has profound cost-efficiency difficulties against zerg, it’s because you're blind."
Apparently, I'm blind. What happened to not balance whining on TL? LR threads have become such balance-whine cesspools (ok, they were bad before too, but it's so much worse now), and this article is fueling the anger.
This article makes me profoundly sad.
Think of the source and how rare it is for the source to mislead us.
I feel upon further reflection that this article is half of an argument. I don't think we can't talk about Toss balance issues and Protoss form and success without discussing the foreign scene to some extent.
I think generally we would agree that foreign Toss have 2 of the hardest working players (Nani and Huk). Their performance is what we would expect. We also have some players with some lovely control (Socke) or innovation though there are limitations in their play we can see (white-ra/ mana?). They haven't had massive success, but they have had a deserved modicum of success.
Why are foreign Terrans doing so poorly? Personally, I would and in light of this article I would ask: why are foreign Terrans so bad? We have seen Korean terrans (albeit the best of the best) come to MLG and cut their P/Z competition to pieces. Presumably then there are gaps in P/Z play that could be exploited by better Terran play or simply the raw level of Terran play could be better. So are foreign Terrans just bad? (or do I have a myopic view of foreign tournaments and foreign terrans have done quite well for themselves? TSL winner was a terran and Select has always been a beast.)
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Personally I think the entire issue stems 100% from warpgates. They make Protoss timings so insanely powerful that Blizzard had to take this into account and not make toss units too strong, meaning standard protoss play is gipped. I think toss personally has the best timing attacks in the game vT and vZ, it's just you kinda know they're coming, and if they don't, they're standard play is semi-subpar.
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On September 09 2011 02:47 Qaatar wrote:I don't see how anyone could agree with this: " MC has been quoted on occasion as having said that, if he played terran, he'd have won five championships. After watching him out-micro his opponent at IEM and still lose, out-multitask his opponent at IEM and still lose, and then go absolutely nuts and use a strategy whose gaping flaws a platinum player could identify in the third game, I believe him." What a nice, underhanded, slap in the face to every other T player . Has MC impressed people so much with his mechanics and decision-making that, if he was a T player, he would be at least 2x better (and luckier) than MVP or Bomber? I doubt even Flash would be able to accomplish such feats, given the volatility of this game. Disregarding the obvious hyperbole and speculation here, as another poster stated, this reminds me a lot of Stork saying if he played T, he would beat Flash (in accomplishments). I don't know how serious either of these guys (Stork and MC, and I hold Stork in much higher esteem than MC) were when they made such statements, but they're silly and ridiculous.
Don't you have to eventually wonder why 1 year after release MC dwarfs other protoss players in terms of accomplishments and is the ONLY protoss to have success in korea? Not saying MC is flash but don't you think he probably would have done even better as T?(the race that has dominated the majority of the game)
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On September 09 2011 02:50 Roxy wrote:
How do you guys think the game would change if banshee cloak was removed from the game?
I think the one thing that is keeping down protoss is that we HAVE to go for robo-tech (obs out by what.. the 6 min mark?)
Not to comment on other aspects of balance, but do you think that if we didnt have the threat of cloaked banshees coming into our base, we would be able to focus on a straight up build that can defend vs everything else
Moving the Banshee Cloaking upgrade to the Fusion Core would almost assuredly be enough to balance Banshee openings.
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On September 09 2011 02:58 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 02:49 Ghanburighan wrote:
This article is insulting, "If you haven't noticed that protoss sucks against terran, and has profound cost-efficiency difficulties against zerg, it’s because you're blind."
Apparently, I'm blind. What happened to not balance whining on TL? LR threads have become such balance-whine cesspools (ok, they were bad before too, but it's so much worse now), and this article is fueling the anger.
This article makes me profoundly sad. Think of the source and how rare it is for the source to mislead us. + Show Spoiler +I feel upon further reflection that this article is half of an argument. I don't think we can't talk about Toss balance issues and Protoss form and success without discussing the foreign scene to some extent.
I think generally we would agree that foreign Toss have 2 of the hardest working players (Nani and Huk). Their performance is what we would expect. We also have some players with some lovely control (Socke) or innovation though there are limitations in their play we can see (white-ra/ mana?). They haven't had massive success, but they have had a deserved modicum of success.
Why are foreign Terrans doing so poorly? Personally, I would and in light of this article I would ask: why are foreign Terrans so bad? We have seen Korean terrans (albeit the best of the best) come to MLG and cut their P/Z competition to pieces. Presumably then there are gaps in P/Z play that could be exploited by better Terran play or simply the raw level of Terran play could be better. So are foreign Terrans just bad? (or do I have a myopic view of foreign tournaments and foreign terrans have done quite well for themselves? TSL winner was a terran and Select has always been a beast.)
You chose the right word, "lead/mislead". It's not so much that it's balance whine, it's more about the wrong attitude. Instead of doing what is constructive - suggesting further testing and figuring out the new metagame; it sends the message that it is ok to simply balance whine on TL, and it will hurt what I need TL the most for: LR threads.
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I'll agree mostly with "The Fall of MC" but I do not think you can say that PuMa is worse than MC, he's beaten him in macro games before, they are very close in skill level.
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On September 09 2011 02:59 FabledIntegral wrote:
Personally I think the entire issue stems 100% from warpgates. They make Protoss timings so insanely powerful that Blizzard had to take this into account and not make toss units too strong, meaning standard protoss play is gipped. I think toss personally has the best timing attacks in the game vT and vZ, it's just you kinda know they're coming, and if they don't, they're standard play is semi-subpar.
Yeah, and I would like to add the Sentry to the equation. It has such an important potential to dictate the battle and comes at T1 that Blizzard also had to tone down Stalkers and Zealots. If the hadn't there could have been an ever greater amount of 1-2 base pure gateway timing attacks.
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On September 09 2011 03:01 OlorinTheWise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 02:50 Roxy wrote:
How do you guys think the game would change if banshee cloak was removed from the game?
I think the one thing that is keeping down protoss is that we HAVE to go for robo-tech (obs out by what.. the 6 min mark?)
Not to comment on other aspects of balance, but do you think that if we didnt have the threat of cloaked banshees coming into our base, we would be able to focus on a straight up build that can defend vs everything else
Moving the Banshee Cloaking upgrade to the Fusion Core would almost assuredly be enough to balance Banshee openings.
That is an excellent idea!
At least it is an excellent idea at first glance.. it may be something akin to the reaper speed being moved to factory requirement.
I hate it when they remove stuff from the game, balancing the timing of it seems much more appropriate
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EPT
