EPT[N]A Mostly Normal Game of Mafia - Page 54
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Going on a limb and lynching Vivax or TT is going to feel a lot more insecure. If you're wrong, it's a lot more likely to be flamed post-game by an "angry townie". While I can be more confident since I know my alignment, you are not in that position. I am asking a lot for players to put aside a psychologically comfortable lynch in favor of something else. But if you want to win, that is what you have to do. Anyway, happy to talk about Vivax/TT reads. You have the golden opportunity to ask "scum-Hapa" rapid fire questions about his reads in the hopes that he slips up and reveals his scum buddy. Give it a shot? | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On December 01 2020 05:34 Hapahauli wrote: Honestly I'm not really sure much of the mechanics of the setup. There are still some basic questions about how my own role works that I probably should ask, like roleblock ordering and stuff.Why is this setup not "balanced" if the Evil Mastermind takes a blue on N1? Or the town Mayor? I think a lot of your discussion discounts the sheer power of the role and the potential for chaos. If I am reading your post correctly, you also seem to be implying that the Evil Mastermind can only convert a VT, which is inaccurate to my knowledge. Honestly I dunno if this setup is balanced any way you look at it. Interesting sure, but there are too many unpredictable things to make a balanced setup, depending on how long the blues stay alive and what the evil mastermind does. But yes, I would be more than happy to try and find your scum-buddy. Can I ask why you currently prefer Vivax to Tictock, given that you seem to consider them both near 100% mafia? Or was it arbitrary? | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On December 01 2020 05:56 Trfel wrote: Honestly I'm not really sure much of the mechanics of the setup. There are still some basic questions about how my own role works that I probably should ask, like roleblock ordering and stuff. Honestly I dunno if this setup is balanced any way you look at it. Interesting sure, but there are too many unpredictable things to make a balanced setup, depending on how long the blues stay alive and what the evil mastermind does. But yes, I would be more than happy to try and find your scum-buddy. Can I ask why you currently prefer Vivax to Tictock, given that you seem to consider them both near 100% mafia? Or was it arbitrary? I am very confident about the game state from my perspective. I would at this point be indifferent to lynching Vivax vs. TT. From my perspective yesterday (having not very deeply read D2/D3), I was much more convinced on Vivax than TT at that point in the game. Finding TT's "read progression" on Vivax and sitting down and reading the clusterfuck that is Rayn's filter made me much more confident on my stance regarding TT. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On December 01 2020 05:56 Trfel wrote: Honestly I'm not really sure much of the mechanics of the setup. There are still some basic questions about how my own role works that I probably should ask, like roleblock ordering and stuff. Honestly I dunno if this setup is balanced any way you look at it. Interesting sure, but there are too many unpredictable things to make a balanced setup, depending on how long the blues stay alive and what the evil mastermind does. And that is the exact point that I'm trying to make. This is an insane setup from any perspective, 2 blues, 3, 4, or whatever. Why then are players making setup assumptions based on balance (and subsequently reads based on those assumptions) when the entire premise of the setup is insane? | ||
Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
We still have a day so for now I'm putting my vote on TT to see how it suits me | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On December 01 2020 06:01 Fecalfeast wrote: Nooo, Fecalfeast, you ruined it Arguing a claim based on game balance when we've already had a cult leader flip is not a good argument in my opinion and honestly hapa is making sense to me and his restraint from trying to take rayn down helps my opinion of him as well. We still have a day so for now I'm putting my vote on TT to see how it suits me  Vote for Hapahauli again? | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On December 01 2020 06:12 Trfel wrote: Nooo, Fecalfeast, you ruined it Vote for Hapahauli again? What exactly is ruined? FF is positioning himself well to lord over the townies who decide to lynch a blue. I'd say he's doing an excellent job. In all seriousness Trfel, you are expressing a lot of confusion over the setup and balance. How can you say then that this is a strong basis for lynching me? | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On December 01 2020 06:19 Hapahauli wrote: Yeah okay fine, I don't really want to lynch you, as we speak I'm typing up a post of all the reasons I think you're town What exactly is ruined? FF is positioning himself well to lord over the townies who decide to lynch a blue. I'd say he's doing an excellent job. In all seriousness Trfel, you are expressing a lot of confusion over the setup and balance. How can you say then that this is a strong basis for lynching me? I was trying to make a play. I think it's a strong argument for your towniness that the votes all stacked up against you. How you haven't yet given up or stopped playing, and (especially) how raynpelikoneet, Vivax, and Tictock all were content to vote for you. Assuming Fecalfeast and I are both town, that means that if you are mafia, one of them is bussing you. It doesn't make sense for you to continue to try this hard and for them to vote for you so confidently, and with no second plan (not really looking past this one lynch). And I think this argument only gets stronger the longer the votes all stay that way and mafia does nothing about it (and potentially, the longer you keep trying to play the game, which is why I was still trying to engage with you despite "thinking you were mafia"). But Fecalfeast ruined it That said, I still would like to know raynpelikoneet's argument against Hapahauli from a few pages ago I'm still trying to understand it but I'm just not seeing it. I probably should actually ask the hosts the billion questions I have for them about role mechanics. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
I knew I could count on you Trfel <3 Now if Rayn is stubborn, are you ready to YOLO Pardon me? It would be an objectively terrible play, but it would be hilarious and awesome. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On December 01 2020 06:27 Hapahauli wrote: Haha, like I said, I'm not going to pardon anyone, even myself. Even if I weren't blue.##Vote GreYMisT I knew I could count on you Trfel <3 Now if Rayn is stubborn, are you ready to YOLO Pardon me? It would be an objectively terrible play, but it would be hilarious and awesome. I should add, to all of the setup discussion, the fact that a pardoner exists also makes the game much, much harder for town. Especially in a game with potentially 2 non-town KP a night, having a chance for non-town to negate one of town's few opportunities to flip someone could be disastrous. And I think that needs to be factored into the game balance as well. For what it's worth. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
(in no particular order) 1. Hapahauli's play makes sense and is towny this game. Hapahauli has been constantly sharing his reads and backing them up with well-thought arguments. But I suppose Hapahauli's towniness is up to your own opinion. I've never seen Hapahauli play as mafia, and I'm especially horrid at meta'ing games I haven't played in so I don't expect to be reading any mafia!Hapahauli games, but I am under the impression that he's not able to mimic his townplay as mafia. This game would be a pretty heroic effort for Hapahauli to be mafia here. 2. All of the votes stacked up on Hapahauli, and he didn't give up or stop playing. Keep in mind, that unless you think I am mafia, or (to a lesser extent) that Fecalfeast is mafia, Hapahauli is presumably getting bussed here. So why did he not give up or back down on the effort? Even when I said he was mafia, he offered to keep playing and help me find his scum-buddy. This only makes sense if he's trying to incriminate a player who isn't voting for him (which, at a stretch, would be me or Fecalfeast; and everyone seems to assume we are town), or if he is actually town. 3. The way all of the votes stacked up against Hapahauli shows that mafia are okay with this. Tictock and Vivax (I suppose also raynpelikoneet, though I don't think he is mafia) are both happy to vote for Hapahauli. Looking at Vivax's filter, he hasn't made very many posts recently but he has been spending those posts pushing Hapahauli while also being suspicious of both Tictock and raynpelikoneet. To me, this feels much more like he's looking one lynch ahead rather than two. Tictock voted for Hapahauli while having strong (but not 100% certain) townreads on both raynpelikoneet and me, and then eventually posts some reasons for Vivax being mafia. It's nowhere near as suspicious as Vivax's play, but I still get a little of a sense that he's not really trying to figure things out, especially past today. 4. If Hapahauli is mafia, why didn't he just 1v1 me? Raynpelikoneet was very suspicious of me. Only Hapahauli and Vivax were really townreading me, I believe. If Hapahauli is mafia, he had the perfect excuse to tunnel me (the blues contradiction), and he's already shown that he is willing to put in a lot of effort to be persuasive. I like to think I'm an okay player, but I'm not a leader-type and I'm not as persuasive, I think we all know what would realistically happen if it came down to a 1v1 between me and Hapahauli like that, especially with me starting out being more scumread than Hapahauli. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
I hope he's not too mad at me for making him be late to work | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
The Jailkeeper is divided into 2 actions: 1) A roleblock that resolves first... 2) And THEN a save. This roleblock has the same priority as the mafia RB. So, in the scenario where: Player A is Jailkeeper Player B is Mafia RB Player C is a townie If Player A JK's Player B, and; If Player B both RB's Player A and shoots Player C; Player C survives that interaction, and Player B's KP is blocked. Therefore, we are in a position tomorrow (assuming we lynch mafia today) where Trfel, even if he is shot, can RB someone and confirm them as town or mafia. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On December 01 2020 07:15 Hapahauli wrote: Yeah, I checked as well, found it surprising but favorable. Even if we mislynch today there's still a 33-50% chance of gaining another lynch.FYI, I did confirm roleblock mechanics with the host. The Jailkeeper is divided into 2 actions: 1) A roleblock that resolves first... 2) And THEN a save. This roleblock has the same priority as the mafia RB. So, in the scenario where: Player A is Jailkeeper Player B is Mafia RB Player C is a townie If Player A JK's Player B, and; If Player B both RB's Player A and shoots Player C; Player C survives that interaction, and Player B's KP is blocked. Therefore, we are in a position tomorrow (assuming we lynch mafia today) where Trfel, even if he is shot, can RB someone and confirm them as town or mafia. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
If mafia gets lynched, it is 1 mafia v. 4 town with mafia to shoot on N3. Mafia basically has to target the JK. JK simply targets someone and states it in thread. If JK dies, JK's target is confirmed town. If JK lives, town has two lynches, allowing town to lynch JK's target AND another target (and allowing JK to act AGAIN the next night). So best case scenario, mafia has to 1v1 the only unconfirmed town in the thread on D4 or 5. That's pretty tough. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
This is also why TicTock is mafia, because he somehow believes that it is optimal play for a Hapa/Vivax mafia team to willingly walk into a murderous situation for "our team" by bussing the shit out of each other from early N1. | ||
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Tictock
United States6052 Posts
I made the yolo team here in the game. I think it is relevant to read the next few posts after mine as I interacted with Vivax and explained where that team came from. Hapa choose not to include that post. This post was in response to Hapa's case on Vivax On November 27 2020 14:20 Tictock wrote: This bit reads as a bit disengenuis. Vivax's post was trying to tell Rayn (who was not his pick as Mayor) who he wanted to see flip. I also find it a bit funny he calls this... That looked like a decent catch on Vivax there Trfel but I can't quite substantiate it from Vivax's filter (I see him going back and forth on Jock and even says he'd shoot FF or Sho). Please feel free to show me what I missed. attacking Trfel's read. Not caught up yet, and more or less just waking up so might have to grab coffee and food soon. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
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