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Remember to post respectfully, but feel free to voice how you actually feel about the change |
Most of the people who are disagreeing don't bash Foolishness or GM. Don't paint it like that. It is good that they think about how to improve our community but in this case they are just wrong.
Fact is that most of the people who are in favor of this change are rarely or never playing games.
Fact is also that NOONE has brought even a single argument to the table as to why hosts couldn't just be more strict if they really want to without having to introduce general rules.
Fact is that people who complain don't show any evidence of how games are filled with bad behaviour right now. They just claim they are while there are people who say behaviour was worse in past years.
There is no reason to assume that it's the behaviour that keeps newbies from joining many normal games. Newbie games are really really different from normal games in many regards. Also it is in general way more likely that a newbie stops playing than established players.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On May 29 2014 03:19 justanothertownie wrote:
Fact is that most of the people who are in favor of this change are rarely or never playing games.
Isn't the fact that they stopped playing actually evidence in favor of the change, rather than against it? Like, if they were still actively playing you could just say "Well, clearly it's not that much of a problem if it's not driving people away". The fact that lots of people who aren't playing any more showed up to this thread and noted that they don't like how things have gone is actually evidence things are bad, isn't it?
On May 29 2014 03:19 justanothertownie wrote:
Fact is also that NOONE has brought even a single argument to the table as to why hosts couldn't just be more strict if they really want to without having to introduce general rules.
Hosts COULD be more strict. We tried that. We suggested, last time around, changing nothing and asking hosts to be more strict. It didn't work. The fact of the matter is, COULD be more strict is not the same as ACTUALLY be more strict.
On May 29 2014 03:19 justanothertownie wrote:
Fact is that people who complain don't show any evidence of how games are filled with bad behaviour right now. They just claim they are while there are people who say behaviour was worse in past years.
Valid point, but people who say behavior was worse in past years aren't showing evidence either.
On May 29 2014 03:19 justanothertownie wrote:
There is no reason to assume that it's the behaviour that keeps newbies from joining many normal games. Newbie games are really really different from normal games in many regards. Also it is in general way more likely that a newbie stops playing than established players.
You can just ask Steveling how a newbie might not feel great on his first foray into a non-newbie game.
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On May 29 2014 03:24 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 03:19 justanothertownie wrote:
Fact is that most of the people who are in favor of this change are rarely or never playing games.
Isn't the fact that they stopped playing actually evidence in favor of the change, rather than against it? Like, if they were still actively playing you could just say "Well, clearly it's not that much of a problem if it's not driving people away". The fact that lots of people who aren't playing any more showed up to this thread and noted that they don't like how things have gone is actually evidence things are bad, isn't it? Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 03:19 justanothertownie wrote:
Fact is also that NOONE has brought even a single argument to the table as to why hosts couldn't just be more strict if they really want to without having to introduce general rules.
Hosts COULD be more strict. We tried that. We suggested, last time around, changing nothing and asking hosts to be more strict. It didn't work. The fact of the matter is, COULD be more strict is not the same as ACTUALLY be more strict. Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 03:19 justanothertownie wrote:
Fact is that people who complain don't show any evidence of how games are filled with bad behaviour right now. They just claim they are while there are people who say behaviour was worse in past years. Valid point, but people who say behavior was worse in past years aren't showing evidence either. Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 03:19 justanothertownie wrote:
There is no reason to assume that it's the behaviour that keeps newbies from joining many normal games. Newbie games are really really different from normal games in many regards. Also it is in general way more likely that a newbie stops playing than established players. You can just ask Steveling how a newbie might not feel great on his first foray into a non-newbie game.
1) The people in question are mostly mafia abstinent for a loooong time already. Also I highly doubt that behaviour would be the only reason for this since there were opportunities to join strictly moderated games or to host such.
2) So hosts are either too lazy to enforce the rules or they don't think they are too lenient. What is the point of new rules then?
3) Bad bad example. Do you actually think that shiaopi wasn't totally right in how he moderated there?
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
like 80% of the newbies that don't play a second game are because they don't realise it's so time consuming, the remaining 20% that play a second game are overwhelmed by the amount of content difference between a newbie game and a normal game, probably like 5% of those people don't like the aggression.
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11589 Posts
There seem to be quite a few people here intent on ignoring the complaints of mafia players about the quality of games and the state of behavior enforcement on this forum. No surprise, they happen to be the ones still actively playing, so they obviously don't see any problem with the state of the game. They shouldn't have any say in changing this forum, because they are biased.
See how stupid and reductive that argument is? Stop being obstinate and realize that there are valid complaints from players who have largely stopped playing. They are telling you why they stopped, and asking you to fix it. Is it really so ridiculous as to accept stricter moderation in order to make playing on this forum more palatable?
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On May 29 2014 03:33 Holyflare wrote:
like 80% of the newbies that don't play a second game are because they don't realise it's so time consuming, the remaining 20% that play a second game are overwhelmed by the amount of content difference between a newbie game and a normal game, probably like 5% of those people don't like the aggression.
before I decided to join a game again and talked to 3 people I think and all of them told me that they did not wanna put up with the spamming and yelling anymore and that I should not even try to play lol.
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On May 29 2014 04:03 yamato77 wrote:
There seem to be quite a few people here intent on ignoring the complaints of mafia players about the quality of games and the state of behavior enforcement on this forum. No surprise, they happen to be the ones still actively playing, so they obviously don't see any problem with the state of the game. They shouldn't have any say in changing this forum, because they are biased.
See how stupid and reductive that argument is? Stop being obstinate and realize that there are valid complaints from players who have largely stopped playing. They are telling you why they stopped, and asking you to fix it. Is it really so ridiculous as to accept stricter moderation in order to make playing on this forum more palatable?
Yes, it kinda is since nobody is preventing anybody from hosting stricter moderated games. There even were some of those and the people in question did NOT join them. Anyone already is free to host/join such games. Why do you have to force everybody to do so if there clearly is a majority of people against that?
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
On May 29 2014 04:03 yamato77 wrote:
There seem to be quite a few people here intent on ignoring the complaints of mafia players about the quality of games and the state of behavior enforcement on this forum. No surprise, they happen to be the ones still actively playing, so they obviously don't see any problem with the state of the game. They shouldn't have any say in changing this forum, because they are biased.
See how stupid and reductive that argument is? Stop being obstinate and realize that there are valid complaints from players who have largely stopped playing. They are telling you why they stopped, and asking you to fix it. Is it really so ridiculous as to accept stricter moderation in order to make playing on this forum more palatable?
Nobody is really arguing that being stricter is a problem at all? They are arguing that:
a) tl bans shouldn't be used at all
b) the op was worded like some thing from a dictatorship where nothing would stand ever
c) this was out of the blue and decided in secret rather than together
people don't care if hosts become a bit stricter and enforce the rules slightly more as long as they get warned first and then modkilled after
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On May 29 2014 04:09 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 04:03 yamato77 wrote:
There seem to be quite a few people here intent on ignoring the complaints of mafia players about the quality of games and the state of behavior enforcement on this forum. No surprise, they happen to be the ones still actively playing, so they obviously don't see any problem with the state of the game. They shouldn't have any say in changing this forum, because they are biased.
See how stupid and reductive that argument is? Stop being obstinate and realize that there are valid complaints from players who have largely stopped playing. They are telling you why they stopped, and asking you to fix it. Is it really so ridiculous as to accept stricter moderation in order to make playing on this forum more palatable? Nobody is really arguing that being stricter is a problem at all? They are arguing that: a) tl bans shouldn't be used at all b) the op was worded like some thing from a dictatorship where nothing would stand ever c) this was out of the blue and decided in secret rather than together people don't care if hosts become a bit stricter and enforce the rules slightly more as long as they get warned first and then modkilled after
which is exactly what is happening so why are you still talking about it ?
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
On May 29 2014 04:11 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 04:09 Holyflare wrote:On May 29 2014 04:03 yamato77 wrote:
There seem to be quite a few people here intent on ignoring the complaints of mafia players about the quality of games and the state of behavior enforcement on this forum. No surprise, they happen to be the ones still actively playing, so they obviously don't see any problem with the state of the game. They shouldn't have any say in changing this forum, because they are biased.
See how stupid and reductive that argument is? Stop being obstinate and realize that there are valid complaints from players who have largely stopped playing. They are telling you why they stopped, and asking you to fix it. Is it really so ridiculous as to accept stricter moderation in order to make playing on this forum more palatable? Nobody is really arguing that being stricter is a problem at all? They are arguing that: a) tl bans shouldn't be used at all b) the op was worded like some thing from a dictatorship where nothing would stand ever c) this was out of the blue and decided in secret rather than together people don't care if hosts become a bit stricter and enforce the rules slightly more as long as they get warned first and then modkilled after which is exactly what is happening so why are you still talking about it ?
huh...? people are still arguing about it that's why and they don't know the reasons why people are arguing at all
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On May 29 2014 03:33 Holyflare wrote:
like 80% of the newbies that don't play a second game are because they don't realise it's so time consuming, the remaining 20% that play a second game are overwhelmed by the amount of content difference between a newbie game and a normal game, probably like 5% of those people don't like the aggression.
I'm actually looking to put together a short survey for people that complete their first newbie game, so maybe that will help give us a better idea of why players do not return or things that could be improved. I'm guessing you're probably right though, as time commitment and availability is likely the biggest factor. The overall newbie return rate is around 50%, which isn't too bad in my opinion. I think the bigger challenge right now is filling the newbie games at a faster pace with new players.
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On May 29 2014 04:03 yamato77 wrote:
There seem to be quite a few people here intent on ignoring the complaints of mafia players about the quality of games and the state of behavior enforcement on this forum. No surprise, they happen to be the ones still actively playing, so they obviously don't see any problem with the state of the game. They shouldn't have any say in changing this forum, because they are biased.
See how stupid and reductive that argument is? Stop being obstinate and realize that there are valid complaints from players who have largely stopped playing. They are telling you why they stopped, and asking you to fix it. Is it really so ridiculous as to accept stricter moderation in order to make playing on this forum more palatable?
This may be the worst argument I've seen yet. The reverse is equally true. The "quitters" who showed up to voice their opinions are ignoring the opinions of those that stayed. Plus, the "quitter so shouldn't have a say in community matters because they're biased AND they excised themselves from the community so they shouldn't have any voice.
Let's be honest. Both sides have good and valid points. Both sides have their benefits and detriments. It's complicated to help solve it.
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On May 29 2014 04:18 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 04:03 yamato77 wrote:
There seem to be quite a few people here intent on ignoring the complaints of mafia players about the quality of games and the state of behavior enforcement on this forum. No surprise, they happen to be the ones still actively playing, so they obviously don't see any problem with the state of the game. They shouldn't have any say in changing this forum, because they are biased.
See how stupid and reductive that argument is? Stop being obstinate and realize that there are valid complaints from players who have largely stopped playing. They are telling you why they stopped, and asking you to fix it. Is it really so ridiculous as to accept stricter moderation in order to make playing on this forum more palatable? This may be the worst argument I've seen yet. The reverse is equally true. The "quitters" who showed up to voice their opinions are ignoring the opinions of those that stayed. Plus, the "quitter so shouldn't have a say in community matters because they're biased AND they excised themselves from the community so they shouldn't have any voice. Let's be honest. Both sides have good and valid points. Both sides have their benefits and detriments. It's complicated to help solve it.
That is the point - IT ISN'T COMPLICATED AT ALL.
Let the people who want stricter rules host games with stricter rules without forcing those rules down everyones throat. PROBLEM FUCKING SOLVED.
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On May 29 2014 04:17 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 03:33 Holyflare wrote:
like 80% of the newbies that don't play a second game are because they don't realise it's so time consuming, the remaining 20% that play a second game are overwhelmed by the amount of content difference between a newbie game and a normal game, probably like 5% of those people don't like the aggression. I'm actually looking to put together a short survey for people that complete their first newbie game, so maybe that will help give us a better idea of why players do not return or things that could be improved. I'm guessing you're probably right though, as time commitment and availability is likely the biggest factor. The overall newbie return rate is around 50%, which isn't too bad in my opinion. I think the bigger challenge right now is filling the newbie games at a faster pace with new players.
This is an awesome idea.
In this thread everyone has whatever little theory of what will work and what will not work but this is hard data. We go out and find the bastards and ask them why they don't like us anymore. That's the only way we can possibly know why they don't like us anymore, not by just sitting around and making stuff up. And when we know this we can reasonably make changes, we can't make changes just because someone has a theory that it might work (when nothing but isolated anecdotal evidence supports their claims).
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On May 29 2014 04:21 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 04:18 geript wrote:On May 29 2014 04:03 yamato77 wrote:
There seem to be quite a few people here intent on ignoring the complaints of mafia players about the quality of games and the state of behavior enforcement on this forum. No surprise, they happen to be the ones still actively playing, so they obviously don't see any problem with the state of the game. They shouldn't have any say in changing this forum, because they are biased.
See how stupid and reductive that argument is? Stop being obstinate and realize that there are valid complaints from players who have largely stopped playing. They are telling you why they stopped, and asking you to fix it. Is it really so ridiculous as to accept stricter moderation in order to make playing on this forum more palatable? This may be the worst argument I've seen yet. The reverse is equally true. The "quitters" who showed up to voice their opinions are ignoring the opinions of those that stayed. Plus, the "quitter so shouldn't have a say in community matters because they're biased AND they excised themselves from the community so they shouldn't have any voice. Let's be honest. Both sides have good and valid points. Both sides have their benefits and detriments. It's complicated to help solve it. That is the point - IT ISN'T COMPLICATED AT ALL. Let the people who want stricter rules host games with stricter rules without forcing those rules down everyones throat. PROBLEM FUCKING SOLVED.
We already tried that. We tried that 6 months ago in this thread
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/438536-tl-mafia-behavior
the solution we came up with was:
On December 18 2013 04:20 GMarshal wrote:
So, what seems to be the consensus is that hosts need to be more proactive about regulating behavior, maybe trying WotC in some more games, and nothing more for now. Lets have this talk again in a month or so and see if things have improved ^_^
We TRIED that. We TRIED just chilling and having hosts improving behavior standards. So our options aren't "try something new, or try a wide ranging rule change", our options are "don't change anything, or try a wide ranging rule change". Your suggested solution is already being implemented for the past 6 months. It's a totally reasonable solution, and it is what I agreed with 6 months ago. There's nothing wrong with it.
And yet, here we are.
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I haven't played in ages and I approve of this message.
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I didn't read Back to Basics so I don't know what happened, but what do people think is not being punished harshly enough? Can someone post me a single ad hominem from a recent game that wasn't punished but that should have been punished? I only remember raynpelikoneet getting drunk and embarassing himself and he's banned now (and I believe most people supported that ban, including himself).
One of the many reasons I don't understand this is because I don't remember a single incident of someone saying something he or she should have been punished for that he or she was not punished for. I really have no idea what's going to change now but claiming that nothing is going to change is ridiculous.
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11589 Posts
There should be TL bans for done of the behavior I've seen on this forum. Adversarial game or not, to many people take this way beyond a game.
Having some of the games more strictly moderated does no good if they are the minority. I haven't seen one in a long time, largely because the active player base refused to play in them. Instead, they played in other games without stringent rules. Now, none of those games are hosted anymore. Obviously you people don't want reform, but other players do and you guys refuse to listen at all.
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As a host I approve, as I've been instituting a lot of these policies on a strict basis in my games.
These changes won't make me a more active player, however. My inactivity is mostly being unable to make the time commitment. In fact, the pressure/vitriol was what actually inspired me to post more, since it was both easier to defend myself against less logical, less inclusive arguments, and more incentive to post or else the wagon of hate would lynch me.
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11589 Posts
On May 29 2014 04:18 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 04:03 yamato77 wrote:
There seem to be quite a few people here intent on ignoring the complaints of mafia players about the quality of games and the state of behavior enforcement on this forum. No surprise, they happen to be the ones still actively playing, so they obviously don't see any problem with the state of the game. They shouldn't have any say in changing this forum, because they are biased.
See how stupid and reductive that argument is? Stop being obstinate and realize that there are valid complaints from players who have largely stopped playing. They are telling you why they stopped, and asking you to fix it. Is it really so ridiculous as to accept stricter moderation in order to make playing on this forum more palatable? This may be the worst argument I've seen yet. The reverse is equally true. The "quitters" who showed up to voice their opinions are ignoring the opinions of those that stayed. Plus, the "quitter so shouldn't have a say in community matters because they're biased AND they excised themselves from the community so they shouldn't have any voice. Let's be honest. Both sides have good and valid points. Both sides have their benefits and detriments. It's complicated to help solve it.
As usual, you fail to understand what I'm saying. I was making a mockery of the argument you just made in your post, because it is terrible. It is a complicated issue and many people are refusing at all to listen to other people's opinions.
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