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Remember to post respectfully, but feel free to voice how you actually feel about the change |
United States22154 Posts
TL Mafia Behavior Rules Discussion
Ok, not really, but I've been looking for an excuse to use this image for ages
Before anyone flips out, this is not a fait accompli, this is a thread to discuss these changes and see how the community feels about them as we go forward with them. Given the agreement of the majority of the hosts, this is probably going to go forward, but feel free to voice your arguments, opinions and general thoughts.
There has been much discussion among hosts, and foolishness, about how to address the declining number of players. Two of the issues that were identified were the massive amount of spam, and the relatively toxic atmosphere in games. The first has very few reasonable solutions, but the second has an easy fix.
As most of you might know, this forum is moderated with a certain amount of leniency, and in order to keep games running smoothly, that will continue to be the case. However its obvious that "leniency" has been interpreted as "complete freedom from the rules" by many, many people. Many players have expressed feelings that the current allowed behavior makes games not fun to play and for some this prevents them from joining games they otherwise would. It also puts a damper on the mood during the games and makes some people demotivated to play.It also means newbies are just not interested in joining to get flamed over and over.
This will also apply to places where there has been some unacceptable but ignored behavior, like in the mafia ban list. For the most part, we are mature, well adjusted adults, we should be able to manage basic interpersonal interaction, without insulting each other, just fine.
We will refer to Section 2 of the Ten Commandments thread as our baseline for allowed behavior. This essentially means:
"Use common sense and treat others like you would want to be treated. This doesn't mean you can't argue or even flame someone. However, flames are largely discouraged and we expect people to have a good reason to resort to harsh language. Gratuitous swearing, insults, or trolling will get you banned. If you must flame, be smart or creative about it, and make sure the flame was deserved. In general, you'll never go wrong by being nice, polite, and mature. There is a general etiquette that is followed on the forums that you can only learn through reading and posting, but here are a few important examples: - Jokes at the expense of someone's race, gender, or sexual orientation are not acceptable
- DO NOT POST IN ALL CAPS. IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE SCREAMING
- Do not spam"
What does this mean, for hosts and players exactly?
Players: Don't post something you wouldn't be comfortable with Plexa reading in the ukraine thread. Don't post things you know would be banned elsewhere on tl. In general, attack arguments, not people, and remember that the person on the other side of the screen is a person.
Basically, hold the TL Mafia forum to the same high standards you'd hold the rest of TL. You wouldn't go to your favorite bar and yell at the barkeeper about how he's a "monumental pile of dogshit". Don't do that here.
Hosts, I'll just quote Foolishness
A result of this change is that you, the host, are responsible for enforcing the new etiquette rules in games. Many of you are aware that my philosophy about hosting is that the host should be an active role and enforcer instead of just someone there to passively move the game along. This type of rule change highly demands that as if you, the host, don't enforce the new behavior rules then the players will not change and the games will not change.
This means taking an active role in telling a player that their behavior is out of line. Of course, modkilling in a game should always be a last resort so make sure you reach out to players and let them know they have crossed a line and need to stop. I know that some hosts/players are more lenient when it comes to what is acceptable for in-game behavior and if you are one of them I am asking you to abide by the new changes because clearly the current system is creating problems and scaring players away.
The hosts are the primary instigator for setting the example for the future. And obviously it is up to GMarshal how he wants to dish out the final punishments (in terms of Mafia bans or temp-bans since he has the authority to do so).
This means that as a host or cohost, you aren't just a votecount bot, or a daypost bot. You need to read the thread, and be ready to take preemptive and reactive action. One of the reasons I have stopped hosting is that being an active host is a time commitment. Be aware of this, and what is expected of you. Hosts are one half of what makes TL Mafia work, if you aren't willing to make an effort, then neither will the players.
Finally, a point of discussion and contention among the people asked, there is a possibility of adding TL temp bans as a punishment for violation of commandment #2. Delayed in other not to disrupt the game, but very much the reasonable and appropriate consequence for violating the rules of TL. I'm not sure this is a thing we want to implement, but its certainly a point worth considering.
These rules will likely go into effect within the next two weeks, as the current batch of games ends.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Players: Don't post something you wouldn't be comfortable with Plexa reading in the ukraine thread. Don't post things you know would be banned elsewhere on tl. In general, attack arguments, not people, and remember that the person on the other side of the screen is a person.
Basically, hold the TL Mafia forum to the same high standards you'd hold the rest of TL. You wouldn't go to your favorite bar and yell at the barkeeper about how he's a "monumental pile of dogshit". Don't do that here.
Something missing from your whole post is a nod to the fact that mafia is an adversarial game, largely predicated on lying and calling other people liars and trying to forcibly remove people from the game at hand for being untrustworthy, malicious (in the game sense) assholes who are trying to kill you.
In this sense, the mafia forum is not quite like the other forums. Anywhere else you assume that people are telling the truth. Indeed if they're basically lying/bullshitting for no reason, they'll get banned for it. Lying/bullshitting is the raison d'etre of one of the two main alignments in mafia, and a legit tactic is to rile up a townie to make emotional/bad decisions...
None of this is to say that cleaning up mafia isn't a noble goal blablabla, but the mafia forum *is* unique.
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So we can discuss this here I take it?
I am against this and I don't even see the reason for it. People always say "players leave because of too much bm, flaming etc." but very rarely you see someone show us a case where this really happened or the bm that caused it.
Why do we need stricter general regulations if it would be perfectly possible for hosts who want to be less lenient on this to implement it in their games? They totally had the freedom to do so at any time. Why are we getting restrictions if there is no need to?
Tbh I don't see that many cases where behaviour was a problem and the best solution for this is to speak to the concerned people and solve this case by case. Just TALK TO EACH OTHER and refrain from reducing the freedom we enjoy in this subforum.
People are making mountains out of molehills...
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There's always a difference between adversarial and the way some people act, marv.
And who knows about the spam.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
obviously wave, but that clearly wasn't my point.
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What marv said is also correct.
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On May 27 2014 21:55 justanothertownie wrote:
So we can discuss this here I take it?
I am against this and I don't even see the reason for it. People always say "players leave because of too much bm, flaming etc." but very rarely you see someone show us a case where this really happened or the bm that caused it.
Why do we need stricter general regulations if it would be perfectly possible for hosts who want to be less lenient on this to implement it in their games? They totally had the freedom to do so at any time. Why are we getting restrictions if there is no need to?
Tbh I don't see that many cases where behaviour was a problem and the best solution for this is to speak to the concerned people and solve this case by case. Just TALK TO EACH OTHER and refrain from reducing the freedom we enjoy in this subforum.
People are making mountains out of molehills...
I can think of a few examples, actually, jampidampi being one of them I believe?
I had at least a couple people from my game complain about it too.
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On May 27 2014 21:57 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 21:55 justanothertownie wrote:
So we can discuss this here I take it?
I am against this and I don't even see the reason for it. People always say "players leave because of too much bm, flaming etc." but very rarely you see someone show us a case where this really happened or the bm that caused it.
Why do we need stricter general regulations if it would be perfectly possible for hosts who want to be less lenient on this to implement it in their games? They totally had the freedom to do so at any time. Why are we getting restrictions if there is no need to?
Tbh I don't see that many cases where behaviour was a problem and the best solution for this is to speak to the concerned people and solve this case by case. Just TALK TO EACH OTHER and refrain from reducing the freedom we enjoy in this subforum.
People are making mountains out of molehills... I can think of a few examples, actually, jampidampi being one of them I believe? I had at least a couple people from my game complain about it too.
My point is that it would be perfectly possible to address this issue using the current ruleset. We don't need to invent new rules. Hosts either provide stricter rules for their games AND ALSO ENFORCE THEM. Or we have to accept that some people may just not be suited for playing mafia.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On May 27 2014 21:59 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 21:57 WaveofShadow wrote:On May 27 2014 21:55 justanothertownie wrote:
So we can discuss this here I take it?
I am against this and I don't even see the reason for it. People always say "players leave because of too much bm, flaming etc." but very rarely you see someone show us a case where this really happened or the bm that caused it.
Why do we need stricter general regulations if it would be perfectly possible for hosts who want to be less lenient on this to implement it in their games? They totally had the freedom to do so at any time. Why are we getting restrictions if there is no need to?
Tbh I don't see that many cases where behaviour was a problem and the best solution for this is to speak to the concerned people and solve this case by case. Just TALK TO EACH OTHER and refrain from reducing the freedom we enjoy in this subforum.
People are making mountains out of molehills... I can think of a few examples, actually, jampidampi being one of them I believe? I had at least a couple people from my game complain about it too. My point is that it would be perfectly possible to address this issue using the current ruleset. We don't need to invent new rules. Hosts either provide stricter rules for their games AND ALSO ENFORCE THEM. Or we have to accept that some people may just not be suited for playing mafia.
Mmm. I hosted what I view as a very successful normal - no hosting mistakes (yay me) but primarily people played pretty fair (and hard), i think i warned once or twice, and people stopped whatever it was they were doing. I'd have had to pull up people many many times under this particular guidance, and frankly I wouldn't do so and I don't deem it necessary, and importantly I wouldn't view it as an improvement to my game
I'm very sure I can keep order in any game I host, and I'm also very sure that nonetheless my line would be quite a bit more lenient than "the same as the rest of TL".
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On May 27 2014 22:07 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 21:59 justanothertownie wrote:On May 27 2014 21:57 WaveofShadow wrote:On May 27 2014 21:55 justanothertownie wrote:
So we can discuss this here I take it?
I am against this and I don't even see the reason for it. People always say "players leave because of too much bm, flaming etc." but very rarely you see someone show us a case where this really happened or the bm that caused it.
Why do we need stricter general regulations if it would be perfectly possible for hosts who want to be less lenient on this to implement it in their games? They totally had the freedom to do so at any time. Why are we getting restrictions if there is no need to?
Tbh I don't see that many cases where behaviour was a problem and the best solution for this is to speak to the concerned people and solve this case by case. Just TALK TO EACH OTHER and refrain from reducing the freedom we enjoy in this subforum.
People are making mountains out of molehills... I can think of a few examples, actually, jampidampi being one of them I believe? I had at least a couple people from my game complain about it too. My point is that it would be perfectly possible to address this issue using the current ruleset. We don't need to invent new rules. Hosts either provide stricter rules for their games AND ALSO ENFORCE THEM. Or we have to accept that some people may just not be suited for playing mafia. Mmm. I hosted what I view as a very successful normal - no hosting mistakes (yay me) but primarily people played pretty fair (and hard), i think i warned once or twice, and people stopped whatever it was they were doing. I'd have had to pull up people many many times under this particular guidance, and frankly I wouldn't do so and I don't deem it necessary, and importantly I wouldn't view it as an improvement to my game I'm very sure I can keep order in any game I host, and I'm also very sure that nonetheless my line would be quite a bit more lenient than "the same as the rest of TL".
Exactly. If there is too much bm in a game the host has to interfere. If he doesn't do so then he 1) doesn't think it is over the line -> why stricter rules? or 2) he doesn't do it for whatever other reason that has nothing to do with too lenient rules (fault of the host).
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I don't understand why people keep thinking their is a behavior problem in games.
Like very occasionally some people rage quit. Other than that, what? What is happening that makes people think there are behavior issues?
Granted I rarely read games that I am not in. But still.
Bigger issues is to try and make games more fun and strengthen the community through stuff like the community thread and playing other games together.
Like the ban list has been quiet recently, Why does this post exist all of a sudden?
Marv is right. Mafia is NOT the same as posting anywhere else in this forum and it shouldn't be treated as such. It is a game in which breaking people down using any means is a fundamental part of playing as both alignments.
I don't agree with what GMarsh is saying and I don't like the fact that this is brought up every few months when I don't believe a problem actually exists.
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Also the more people go on about banning people and PREVENTING people from playing mafia the worse this forum will be for it.
The mafia forum is clearly already in a state of decline. Coming up with new methods and reasons to prevent people from playing mafia is just ludicrous.
And one more thing. Nothing against GMarsh personally or as a mod but I think this subforum needs a moderator who is more active and engaged/relevant to our community.
AFAIK Gmarsh is an intensely busy guy who rarely hosts games and plays even more rarely.
TL Mafia Deserves a mod that is a current, active, engaged part of the community.
Someone like Blazinghand for example.
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Lol not for this to turn into some sort of impeachment thread, but having BH in charge of some modding-type stuff is a great idea imo.
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11589 Posts
I don't think the problem is as bad as it once was, but I also think that stricter enforcement of acceptable post standards and player interaction etiquette is not something I am going to argue against.
As far as spam goes, my suggestion is a D1-only post count restriction. The majority of useless spam happens D1. Force players to be more frugal with their posts and you'll cut down page numbers by a significant margin.
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why not make a poll and put it to a vote?
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On May 27 2014 22:20 DarthPunk wrote:
Also the more people go on about banning people and PREVENTING people from playing mafia the worse this forum will be for it.
The mafia forum is clearly already in a state of decline. Coming up with new methods and reasons to prevent people from playing mafia is just ludicrous.
I agree 100 %.
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On May 27 2014 22:33 WaveofShadow wrote:
Lol not for this to turn into some sort of impeachment thread, but having BH in charge of some modding-type stuff is a great idea imo.
Ya.
Like I said it's nothing against Gmarsh.
But this community deserves a mod that is actually like very involved in the community.
And BH fits the bill perfectly.
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no, gmarsh is better because his detachment makes him less biased.
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On May 27 2014 22:48 kushm4sta wrote:
no, gmarsh is better because his detachment makes him less biased.
I don't think Blazinghand is biased or would ever be biased.
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o rly?
forum big brother
he voted VE's mspaint as the best even though mine was clearly better.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ziAES08.jpg)
