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Remember to post respectfully, but feel free to voice how you actually feel about the change |
I will now reveal that my claim was fak...
Nope, wait.
I will now reveal a series of pm's between me and shiaopi in our last game.
me
< http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/440546-golden-sun-the-lost-age-mafia-djinn-edition?page=179#3564
??????????????
Sub me out pls.>
shiaopi
<are you serious?
cannot find anything offensive directed against a player specifically in there..>
me
<What does the "fuck your mother" part mean according to you?>
shiaopi
<That was not directed at anyone. It was bad language yes, but as he did not direct it at anyone I see it as a random explanation that slam decided to share.
If you wish to be replaced, fine but I do not see this as valid reason and will seek an appropiate sanction in the banlist afterwards. I can talk slam to reduce posta like these but that is all I will do. >
Random explanation that he decided to share, )))))). Gotta love this hosting.
me
<So if I quote his post and similarly use a heavy curse towards no one that would be fine as well?
Cause I'd like to do that.>
shiaopi
<he was explaining hijole and used an example to say what is offensive and what is not(hijole is not) I saw hijole as a comment to one of your posts not the fuck your mother part. So if you wish to explain a specific term with heavy cursing feel free to do so.>
me
<Are you playing dumb or?
I don't understand you.
Thanks for hosting. I'll keep playing.>
shiaopi
<Look I am not playing dumb, this is my point of view and I assume it is shared by many others since you are the only one out of all players/hosts to have an issue with this post.
I don't understand what your problem is and I don't have to put up with this tone from you. If you have an issue with my hosting, feel free to get out of the game any time you want to.>
Yeah I'll feel free to get out of the game after you threatened to temp me in the previous pm. Smooth.
##bote: shiaopi
This mentality is gangrenous and needs to be cauterised.
Also the whole "IM A VET AND YOU SHOULD LICK MY BALLS" thing, pls cut this crap.
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good time to lock this thread
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Let's be honest, I'm at points one of the worst offenders. Hell when foolishness sent me the pm I started out with a caveat that I'm probably not the right person to ask (for multiple reasons).
To some extent, the enforcement needs to be tightened up. I think we also need to find more "creative" ways to ban/warn players and to moderate behavior. I think we also need to find a way to try and standardize enforcement of the rules.
For example, if Shiaopi had "spammer", "obscenity", "lurker", "ad homenim", etc vigs, then that game would've been more balanced and likely been more fun since both Steveling and myself wouldn't have lived past D1 for the health of the town. If Shiaopi were BH, then likely both Steveling and myself would be banned for a game or two and rightly so. Perhaps instead of bans, we should require the offending player to host and/or cohost some games.
So basically yes, I think we need to find ways to be less of an asshole to each other and find ways to promote being nice to each other. To some extent we can moderate to help curb the former; not amount of moderation would help the latter. I don't think the warning/ban system works well in the current environment. I think we should consider keeping parts of it because sometimes people just need a ban. But I think many times people forget how much shit hosts go through sometimes that they forget that their shit fights don't just affect themselves and the other player; they affect the host, cohorts, and surrounding players.
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I'm pro change. Frankly, I don't care if someone calls me a retard, and even I wish to call someone a retard at times, but is it really necessary? Does screaming FUCK YOU, YOU SUCK somehow enhance the gameplay?
I don't feel that it brings anything that is needed to the games. Whereas, there are players that do not enjoy coming in, voicing their opinion, and being shat on because their opinion is considered bad or invalid by someone else. Instead of being "HOHO, I PRO LEET HAX BEST EVUR, YOU SHITPIECE CASE GET OUT", why not just be constructive? Such as "I think your case sucked/is bad because of reasons X, Y & Z. You should do A & B if you want to be taken seriously."
If there are players that deliberately feel the need to diss others to feel superior (or just plain dissing others, whether it's for their amusement or not), they can do so in their free time elsewhere.
In short, I don't see why not. I wouldn't mind even if things stayed as there are, but I believe (even with many contradictory opinions in this thread), that the change would shift the community towards a more enjoyable environment in general. You can always host a game of "Supah Rude Mafia" monthly where those that cannot hold back their urges of expressing their opinion about others in the crudest way possible can gather and have fun. :p
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im pro change for the sole reason that the more rules we change, the easier it will be to overcome resistance to eliminating the real reason the mafia forum is declining in player base - games are too long now, people with non-computer-based jobs can't play anymore
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11589 Posts
I play less because games are incredibly shitty and the players all yell at each other for no discernible reason. Anything that ends this stupidity is fine with me.
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I'm reading the thread atm, lol at the people claiming they shit on others as a tactic.
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On May 28 2014 12:45 Steveling wrote:
I'm reading the thread atm, lol at the people claiming they shit on others as a tactic.
And you are shitting on them for what reason?
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?
When did I tell someone off?
I say hijole & stuff but the point is that this forum is in english and most people won't understand that so it is randomness. Besides, it means "son of" not "Fuck your mother" That would be "Chinga su madre" which I almost never say. I say "Chinga la madre" which means "Fuck the mother" a different significance entirely.
Steveling you remind me of CDGcorazon who is now Corazon who took things personally on a level that was not correct.
I just realized, if you do not actually know English or Spanish and are using google translate. Google translate falls for false cognates, and you should be aware of that and stop using it. It will cause you to misunderstand everyone.
I never had any feeling toward you that was hostile, simple annoyance when you got me to claim BH & My role was the worst it got.
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Just read the link.
Dude stop using google translate. The whole point of that post is me noticing your reaction to something and telling you I was not talking about you, I was expressing disgust with BH's overboard behavior toward you.
To make understand easy for google translate
Blazinghand speak "steveling stupid, or steveling make this mistake, and is not good steveling should be quiet"
Alakaslam QUOTE/ Blazinghand, speak "Hijole" or "Oh, shit."
Steveling speak Alakaslam and Blazinghand are team up to insult steveling
Alakaslam is confused
Alakaslam speaks what "Hijole" Significance. And then say what word would speak significance Steveling speak what alakaslam speak was speaking.
+ Show Spoiler +
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can't wait until the new rules are enforced, specifically the one about english only on teamliquid
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On May 28 2014 13:06 VayneAuthority wrote:
can't wait until the new rules are enforced, specifically the one about english only on teamliquid
Yeah, it makes sense. But until then...
I get to use my Mexican exclusive Spanish slang and explain it whenever.
Also if I must Spock my activity will take a dive (which may grow the community) because I must watch a lot of Spock. Even now the Spock wears thin, and the juices carry CHUPAZI through my system.
Otherwise my +1 would be here as requested by Blazinghand 
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On May 28 2014 13:06 VayneAuthority wrote:
can't wait until the new rules are enforced, specifically the one about english only on teamliquid
Vayne just won the thread.
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While I'm not bothered by them, neither do I think the insults add anything to the game. It seems likely that a better atmosphere in games is more likely to attract players than push the current ones away. I would at least hope that to be the case; it would be sad if someone decides to quit because they've lost their license to be rude. The end result should not be having to constantly ban regulars. That would be detrimental to the goal of the proposed changes.
Having said that, I don't think the changes will have any meaningful impact in terms of increasing the playerbase.
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I haven't played a game in a while so maybe I'm not the person with the most insight in recent games.
I'm all for people playing nicer. Yes, mafia is an emotional game about lying and deceiving but I don't see how you can't properly play the game without calling someone a retard. Personally, I would probably fall into foolishness "sensitive" categorie 
I'm not sure about the TL bans as a punishment but I agree that hosts should take a more active role in moderating games and that it wouldn't hurt to adjust the Mafia rules to the TL rules. Right now it depends on a host's leniency on whether something would be punished, so maybe updating the standard OP would be a good move (and also result in less discussions in the ban thread with a new uniform stance on banworthy behaviour). I'm not saying that we should use the exact same rules as TL (posting THEREFORE XY IS SCUM AND HAS TO BE LYNCHED after a huge paragraph of case against him is barely worthy of punishment) but I like the direction BH is going with his OP.
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I was avoiding this thread and then BH went to all the trouble to PM me and ask me to weigh in and because it made me feel important I guess I shall.
From the gist of everything that's been said, none of the current active players seem to have that big of an issue with the current atmosphere in regards to language. Sure every few months someone leaves in a huff but in my opinion that's the price to pay for the game we play. And I may be showing my "vet status" (whatever that phrase means) here but good god things are behaviorally better now than when I started imo. For starters there is actually a mafia "community" that didn't exist to the same degree and at the same time the number of gigantic forum halting ban list discussions has fallen as well (anyone remember the debate to perm BM?). So in my opinion, drastic change is not needed. If someone is being an asshat and other players feel victimized, it's within their power to go to the host and if there's enough merit to the complaints the host can just modkill and move on. I'll be the first one to admit I'm not the greatest host but if the environment in one of my games got to the point where people were complaining then I'd modkill in a heartbeat. Moderation is fine as it is, the system is in place to deal with out of line behavior, imo the hosts have simply not exercised enough authority over their games.
Now to the real point, I know GM had wanted to keep the discussion of spam out of this thread, however the problem that I believe he is attempting to address with stricter rules actually stems from spam as well as factors outside of our control. In terms of factors outside our control, let's face it, we were all younger when we started playing mafia and part of the problem is that the core demographic burst that came along with WoL is growing up and doesn't have as much time anymore. HoTs didn't bring in any real new blood and TL certainly isn't seeing the same growth it used to. That means two things, 1) the number of possible new recruits has fallen and 2) the amount of time vets spend here has fallen as well.
On to the actual point of spam, as one person said, they don't have time to play mafia anymore because in part of the spam. This compounds the problem of having a life that I talked about earlier. I'm not really sure when the meta changed (iirc it was somewhere around late 2012) but for some reason games now have double the posts with half the people as games then did. Spam just means mafia takes a shitton of time to actually play right. But before I go proposing any crazy rule changes, imo this should fall on the hosts as well. Steveling with a 25 page filter by the end of N1 should have been modkilled in golden sun imo and I'm honestly surprised ShaioPi didn't.
Ultimately, it's up to hosts to keep order in their game as they see fit, however they should not be deaf to player opinions. Rather than attempting to codify a new set of rules to make people behave better, I think the hosts all need to personally step it up and not be afraid of modkilling someone. Yes it has the potential to alter the game, but if someone is really acting as poorly as GM suggests they are then their behavior is more ruinous than modkilling them would be.
Phew did not intend for that to get as long as it did...
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Since the busiest time we had on TLMafia (2012) was also they heydays of being a dick, I don't see why you think severe behavior moderation would make the community healthier. wherebugsgo's self admitted modus operandi was to piss people off but the community has never been healthier than when he played.
I think there's a gap between what the self appointed largely anonymous seemingly mostly non-playing TLMafia Junta intends with this change and what the doomsayers think will happen. I think the Junta should explain exactly what the difference is going to be. Saying that there's not going to be a difference is obviously a lie and a cover up. What has happened that will be punished differently under the new rules than under the old rules?
Also, will the Junta use site bans to enforce hosts to enforce the Junta rules or will hosts still be able to make their own OPs and enforce them as they see fit?
If I'm the problem I'd like you to tell me instead of making new rules, having me play in a game and then site banning me. If I'm the problem then I'll leave voluntarily. I think most people feel like this and that's why I think we should just talk this through and agree on something. The purpose of rules, the purpose of laws, isn't to punish people but to prevent infractions from happening in the first place but you can't prevent infractions if people don't know what constitutes an infraction and what does not.
I think that a better way to do all this would be to just host single games where these rules are enforced and see what happens. Do people join these games, is this something people want? Some people (including me) liked Ver and Hapahaulis's post restriction game, lets have more of those, maybe they'll become the norm. Some people might like games where you can't make any ad homines, host some of those games and they might become so popular that current style games are simply choked out. If that happens, the community has spoken. If some of the grizzled Junta veterans don't want to play with the new kids then host invite games. No amount of rules will make Qatol want to play a game with REDACTED anyway.
Who would play in a Blazinghand hosted game where ad homines are punished with a 2 day site ban? I might, if I liked the setup. If it filled up in 25 minutes, if the demand is there, then great. The community is now what the Junta wanted it to be and you guys can pat yourself on the back for having educating the uncouth barbarians. But I'm very much against making all games of this type overnight without really asking the community. Very objectionable.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
The people's revolution is coming...
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On May 28 2014 18:36 marvellosity wrote:The people's revolution is coming...
I have never been more in agreement with marv. Feels weird as shit.
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EPT
