Detention Mafia

On May 27 2014 10:48 jabberwockzerg wrote:

confusing for the sake of being confusing
valid strategy I suppose

On May 27 2014 15:31 fuba wrote:
But the last game was Classroom, the game that got remade. And since jabber was scum in that game, he knew that Chrom wasn't. Which means that he knew chrom wasn't scum, but suggested that possibility anyway. While I can't give an exact reason for scum|jabber to lie, I don't see any reason for town|jabber to.

...Though now that I think of it, unless the scumteam is the exact three people it was last time, then jabber would be incredibly unlikely to intentionally lie about who was on it, since at least one scum from last game would be town this game and would point out that he's lying. So either this was just a mistake on his part or I'm misunderstanding some part of the interaction. Either way, I'm pretty sure I've talked myself out of this...

##Unvote

On May 27 2014 21:37 fuba wrote:

I don't really see scum as more likely to post something like that so carelessly, particularly because I can see no reason to do so. It seems like too much oversight with no payoff.

On May 27 2014 21:42 fuba wrote:
Bleh, I'll do another read through the thread when I have time after class. The lynch just seems wrong to me :S

On May 28 2014 02:20 27ninjabunnies wrote:


Hi there slOosh.

You are okay with this lynch.

Why?

And do you have anything else to comment?

On May 27 2014 11:20 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Counter point: he could have been super into last game because he was mafia, and isn't as into being vanilla town.

On May 27 2014 11:21 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Definitely leaving towards scum though

On May 28 2014 02:31 fuba wrote:
Though what i'd said before (about an intentional lie being caught by his scummates) had slipped my mind. The entire situation is a ball of confusion.

On May 27 2014 17:41 Alakaslam wrote:
Meta is useless, and I will be proof within 16 hours.

On May 27 2014 17:41 Alakaslam wrote:
Meta is useless, and I will be proof within 16 hours.

On May 28 2014 03:10 27ninjabunnies wrote:


By meta, isnt slam talking about his own meta?

Im not sure how this statement refers to the case at hand.

On May 28 2014 08:51 Palmar wrote:
If someone isn't following why that last MZ post raises alarms (aside from the fact he's calling everyone mafia), I'll explain.



The bolded quote is very much not trying to figure out i's alignment. If MZ thinks there is any chance i is mafia, why is he trying to stop i from digging his own grave under the threat of "if you keep doing this I'll be suspicious of you!!!!". This looks like MZ wants to read i as town, while still looking like he's poking people.

On May 28 2014 16:43 Palmar wrote:

Which part of it do you not get?

"If you leave it vague like this, it makes it seem like you're just trying to throw dirt on him without actually having to take a stand."

This is basically saying

"If you don't elaborate, you're acting like mafia".

When in reality if MZ is town, he shouldn't care whether or not i acts like mafia, but if he is mafia. If MZ is town and thinks i is town his logical explanation should be

"If you don't elaborate, you won't convince anyone".

Because if MZ thinks i is town, he wouldn't care about i doing something potentially scummy for the sake of it being scummy, and rather because it is not helpful. However if MZ thinks i is mafia, why is he explaining the steps i can take to remove any suspicion MZ might have to him. It's like me saying "hey, you just made a case that is wrong, that is very mafia like. please make another case that is right so I don't have to call you mafia." It's just an absurd way of playing the game.

The only reasonable conclusion is that MZ must think i is town, and thus it makes no sense for MZ to point out something i does looks like something mafia does.

The reason I created in my head is that MZ knows i is town, and doesn't feel the need to call him mafia right now, but does leave the open-ended suspicion for use later.

On May 28 2014 14:32 gobbledydook wrote:
so sloosh, what is *your* read on MZ? I have given my read already, basically I think he's not confident in his reads so he's hedging his bets.

On May 29 2014 02:41 Alakaslam wrote:
Watch someone who doesn't get math ask who i is

"Oh, dearest, you mean- 'who am I', not 'who is i', that' improper spelling and grammar."

On May 29 2014 03:24 Alakaslam wrote:

None that remain clear in my mind. However I remember palmar had some sway? M_Z looked a little scummy to him but I think I disagreed.

On May 29 2014 03:57 Amiko wrote:
@slOosh:
Maybe jabberwockzerg will be lynched today, maybe not. Either way, I'd rather have the day end where there are two people who reasonably could get lynched. In that case, our votes are more significant because they reflect an actual choice: it means people found one person scummy as compared to another person. If all the votes are on jabberwockzerg, the votes don't tell us much of anything and don't reflect a meaningful choice by the players.

Since some players don't want to vote jabberwockzerg, I want to know who their pick would be.

On May 29 2014 04:07 Amiko wrote:
@slOosh:
I'm writing now and seeing what I find. I can post what I have and continue I suppose.
Btw I asked you for a read on Alakaslam a little earlier since a fair number of your posts seemed to focus on him, can you give me any comments?

@27ninjabunnies: Nothing personal bunnies, but I'm going to ignore that post unless you give me anything to write about :x

On May 29 2014 07:09 fuba wrote:
As for what he's said about MZ, I'd have to form an opinion of MZ for myself first XD

On May 28 2014 08:52 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:

Actually I didn't call sqrt scum, I was pointing out something that he's done which isn't helpful. I can have him correct that behavior and thus improve the town environment and maybe teach him something at the same time (which is after all the point of the game).

On May 28 2014 16:48 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
K sqrt I'm starting to have a serious problem here. You go from this:



To this:





You can't "think he's town" and think he's scum too" at the same time. This is actually pretty scummy imo.

Oh hey 27NB:

I also am really digging this post here although I disagree with mderg and I'd insert someone else, who I'm not sure of yet.

So Palmar, just so the record is straight, now I'm calling sqrt scum for clearly contradicting himself in an attempt to be vague and not get caught supporting the wrong person.

On May 29 2014 17:02 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:

My reason for wanting to lynch Palmar was stated here:


At this point I'm not as convinced of Palmar's scumminess anymore because he's come in and been contributing a lot more than I would have expected out of scum Palmar. At the moment I don't have a burning scum read, I am probably most suspicious of sqrt because of the way he seems to drift with the general opinion of the thread like a willow in the wind. However I'm not sold that makes him scum yet, I wanna see him post for a little while longer before I make my mind up.

On May 30 2014 02:21 fuba wrote:

Yuppers. Probably. Definitely look at gobble, and let me know what you think.

On May 30 2014 02:56 mderg wrote:

Would you mind elaborating?

On May 30 2014 03:11 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:

That's called a progression of a read sloosh. As you can see, at first I was not suspicious of sqrt and was simply pointing things out about his play for him to fix, then he posted more and I changed my mind because of new information. This is typically how one processes facts in a changing environment. I literally outline what's going on in the second post you quoted.

On May 30 2014 13:06 Amiko wrote:
Okay, reading through filters, slOosh is my top scum right now and I want to lynch him.

There’s other things that I think support scumreading him, but I think this is the best point so I want to start here and build.

I think the central point is: After voting jabber, slOosh does nothing to develop his feelings on jabber. He doesn't try to get explanations from jabber or even follow up after jabber's responses

This is the post where slOosh joins the vote for jabber.

Initially, this is worrisome because slOosh is joining the wagon in a noncommittal way. He isn’t stating what he agrees or disagrees with. This is a “+1” post. This is potentially scummy because it’s bandwagoning without commitment. But the remainder of the day is what turns from suspicious to scummy.

After his vote, slOosh does almost nothing on the lynch on jabber. So, take a look at other players’ actions D1. Other players question jabber – they are not sure on the lynch, so they want to get more information or talk about the issue more with other players.

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slOosh's D1 is different from almost every other player D1 because of his lack of interaction or followup on slOosh

I went through every players' filter and I think almost all of them (maybe not Slam) support my read on slOosh as uninterested in the jabber lynch. This is a little long so I'll put it in a spoiler, but I really invite you to read through it.

+ Show Spoiler +
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So I just went through all these players. Why?

It’s certainly possible for mafia to ask questions to jabber. They probably did!

But, it is really hard for me to believe that town joins a vote on jabber, yet doesn’t seem to revisit the issue, talk about its merits with other players, or get some sort of confirmation from jabber.

Pretty much every player in the game discussed the jabber lynch to some extent. Maybe we questioned jabber, or we explained our thoughts on why it could be a natural mistake, a scumslip, what jabber’s followup comments meant to us, etc.

slOosh doesn’t ask any questions to jabber, or really follow up on the lynch. We get his explanation here (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=12#229).
After voting for jabber, slOosh's D1 is questioning other players on why they vote for jabber, talking about Slam & Palmar, etc. Seriously, take a look at his filter and see how little he has to say about the lynch that was there basically the entire day.


Wheres other players expressed doubt through trying to get more information, press jabber for more information, etc.,
If you are town, you (like me) did not know whether jabber was mafia or not. You talked about the lynch, you read jabber's responses, and you probably considered them and wrote something about your reads.

slOosh's d1 reflects indifference to the lynch. I feel that indifference comes from scum.

##Vote: slOosh

On May 28 2014 09:20 jabberwockzerg wrote:
I'm just gonna go 1 by 1 and tell what I think of everybody so far
1) Chromatically
Thought his activity was suspicious at first, but rethinking about it now he doesn't seem too bad.
2) 27ninjabunnies
Playing hard, throwing around leads. She could be scummy, but I'm leaning towards town for her. Nothing she's said has jumped out as questionable.
3) Meapak_Ziphh
I agree with gobbledy, that his scatterbrainedness is more about a lack of confidence about his reads than scumm behavior.
4) gobbledydook
no reads
5) jabberwockzerg
That's me! Town, if there seems to be any confusion :D
6) mderg
Not really getting much.
7) HaruRH
Kinda defending me, which is cool of him. A real pal. Don't see why a Mafia would do that at all, so he's clean.
8) sqrtofneg1

and then following up with

just kinda seems like a half baked WIFOM attempt from mafia to my (admittedly untrained) eyes
also he has been throwing down a lot without following up on a lot. Probably my frontrunner for scum at this point.
9) slOosh
not getting much
10) Amiko
Good, high quality posts, but no read at this point in time
11) Alakaslam
no read
12) fuba
Defending me, which is great of him. No reason for a Mafia to defend me, so he's clean for me.
13) Palmar
A little scummy, which has been covered but not really at the forefront of my mind.

I'll be happy to answer any questions people have for the next couple hours and attempt to clear my name

On May 28 2014 08:45 Palmar wrote:
MZ not everyone in the game is mafia. fuba and haru look bad, jwz is your most likely scumread and you could get behind a lynch on me, and now you're telling sqrtofneg1 that he might be mafia, while in the same breath explaining to him how he can get you to drop your "suspicion".

Welcome to my scum tier.

On May 29 2014 04:36 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
hmm I'm a bit suspect of people trying to develop a second wagon at the same time as they're voting JWZ. Either say you've changed your mind about jwz and explain why or start developing reads for tomorrow.

##Vote: jabberwockzerg
Thought there was a voting thread lol

On May 30 2014 03:11 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:

That's called a progression of a read sloosh. As you can see, at first I was not suspicious of sqrt and was simply pointing things out about his play for him to fix, then he posted more and I changed my mind because of new information. This is typically how one processes facts in a changing environment. I literally outline what's going on in the second post you quoted.

On May 30 2014 03:25 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:

At this point I don't consider him town.

On May 29 2014 17:02 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:

My reason for wanting to lynch Palmar was stated here:


At this point I'm not as convinced of Palmar's scumminess anymore because he's come in and been contributing a lot more than I would have expected out of scum Palmar. At the moment I don't have a burning scum read, I am probably most suspicious of sqrt because of the way he seems to drift with the general opinion of the thread like a willow in the wind. However I'm not sold that makes him scum yet, I wanna see him post for a little while longer before I make my mind up.

On May 30 2014 16:42 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Harurh, Palmar is almost certainly town at this point fyi.

imo Amiko's case on sloosh is excellent, I'm curious to see who opposes it.

On May 31 2014 05:07 Amiko wrote:
I’ll look at thread and maybe comment on M_Z, but here’s even more reason to vote slOosh

First look at this post by slOosh, we’ll then talk about how it differs from other players.


So, when you are offered the idea of a new wagon, you might expect a few responses.
Players might propose some additional wagons, or use the situation to make reads. (ex: 27ninjabunnies, sqrt, fuba)
+ Show Spoiler +
Players might comment on the idea of other wagons as good or bad. (ex: mderg, M_Z, Palmar)
+ Show Spoiler +
Some players don't weigh in on wagons as much, but this is at least somewhat less suspicious because they spend some time defending wagons on themselves (gobbledygook, Haru).
+ Show Spoiler +. While I’m not in love with these filters, (I would have liked to see more comments on other wagons) they are still way better looking to me than slOosh.

slOosh’s comments (above) are different.
He doesn’t indicate whether he wants another wagon or not – he waits to see who is proposed
Here are ALL OF SLOOSH’S POSTS that come after we are discussing a second wagon until the vote.

I was going to put this in a spoiler tag, but then I saw how few posts there were so why bother.






When I raise a wagon (as he says I should do soon) he doesn't even comment on it.

So, as I said before, slOosh is scum because he doesn't weigh in on jabber, who should be a focus for the day.

But, slOosh is also scum because he doesn't weigh in on any of the other wagons (Palmar, Haru, fuba)

On May 31 2014 05:42 Amiko wrote:
slOosh’s defense is here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=36#711 . I believe his explanation is:
(1) He says he did not push jabber because wanted to see what jabber did if jabber was left alone.
(2) He wanted to push other people, to maybe provide avenues for jabber to contribute.

#1
This isn't that arguable, but it's more likely to come from scum.
Jabber was left alone and he made comments that didn’t help us read him as town. Why would scum want to interject if jabber is doing a good job burying himself?
At least slOosh does concedes that he didn’t push jabber, though, so you don’t need to read his filter to confirm that he didn’t push on jabber.
Further, slOosh doesn't comment or push on jabber's subsequent posts. So, if he actually cared what jabber did, why did he seem to ignore what jabber did?


#2
This is not a good explanation because it is not consistent with his play.
As I pointed out here (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=36#716), slOosh really did not push other players, despite a few other wagons forming as options. I don’t see him providing new points on the players or providing a line of questioning that jabber could jump into.

On May 31 2014 15:39 Amiko wrote:
@slOosh
- You did make a defense against my larger case (I don't find it convincing). Do you have any separate response to the points Chrom raised on you from D1?

On May 28 2014 02:20 27ninjabunnies wrote:

Hi there slOosh.

You are okay with this lynch.

Why?

And do you have anything else to comment?

On May 31 2014 15:39 Amiko wrote:
@slOosh
- What do you think is your best post from D1? Or like, the best thing you did D1?

On May 31 2014 15:39 Amiko wrote:
@slOosh
- Do you have any recent thoughts on Palmar/sqrt/Alakaslam?

On May 31 2014 13:57 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I mean. Idk. I prob need to read the last few pages, but im super tired... Lol

Yeah, i think ill just post in the morning.

Sloosh, palmer, mz probz scum.

Will discuss later

On May 29 2014 09:10 jabberwockzerg wrote:
## vote: Meapak_Ziphh

On May 29 2014 09:10 jabberwockzerg wrote:
come on bold
##vote: Meapak_Ziphh

On June 05 2014 19:05 Palmar wrote:
2) Mderg also addresses this, but he does it in a very particular way, I'll quote him: "Me being scum only makes sense, if jabber flips town. I could see mafia reasons for that." I hope I'm not the only one who noticed that if mderg is mafia, he made a super ballsy play of literally planting the idea that he may be mafia based on something he already knew would come true. Hell townies don't like to claim they might be mafia, mafia absolutely hates doing it. It's really, really hard for me to believe that mderg would be capable of such an advanced mafia play.

On June 10 2014 19:30 marvellosity wrote:

It's not just you, I don't like lynches like that either. It's much easier to mislynch townies when there's genuine needle or it'd be funny or something. Unfortunately you just gotta suck it up because you gotta pick on the weak targets. Although mislynching a strong player at lylo is about as good as it gets when you're mafia