EPTI still think MZ is scummy. I already made my case on him and I feel like it still stands.
##vote: Meapak_Ziphh
Detention Mafia - Page 36
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mderg
Germany1740 Posts
I still think MZ is scummy. I already made my case on him and I feel like it still stands. ##vote: Meapak_Ziphh | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22633 Posts
On May 30 2014 21:41 gobbledydook wrote: My strongest read so far is fuba because of the way he's accusing me. I have skimmed through the sloosh arguments, and I'll come up with a detailed read like this one later. Better idea: find me 5 people tho you strongly consider to be town. | ||
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sqrtofneg1
Canada1159 Posts
Too bad chrom died. I'm a bit busy atm, be back soon. | ||
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HaruRH
Singapore2780 Posts
Firstly, my reads on palmar was distrupted because he did not read the op, which I assumed everyone to do so. Secondly, much of my reads on MZ is attributed to him forgetting to vote - last minute vote wws what I was banking on, but since it's a mistake now, I have no case against him. I will go with the flow for now until someone else piques my interest again. ## unvote ## vote: slOosh | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22633 Posts
On May 30 2014 23:34 HaruRH wrote: This is getting worse and worse. Firstly, my reads on palmar was distrupted because he did not read the op, which I assumed everyone to do so. Secondly, much of my reads on MZ is attributed to him forgetting to vote - last minute vote wws what I was banking on, but since it's a mistake now, I have no case against him. I will go with the flow for now until someone else piques my interest again. ## unvote ## vote: slOosh Here, so you can be sure I'm not lying: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20920619 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17414099 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=19520346 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17362020 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17206041 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16062977 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15487111 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14526452 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=13756090 | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2603 Posts
On May 30 2014 22:26 Palmar wrote: Better idea: find me 5 people tho you strongly consider to be town. Ok, if you want me to do this instead Amiko is pretty certain to be town, his contributions are excellent and has played a leading role in scumhunting. 27ninjabunnies similarly to Amiko, town. Those are my 2 strongest town reads, I would be extremely surprised if they flipped mafia. Other town reads of mine are Palmar, mderg, MZ. You because while I disagree with you on some of your reads, I think you're trying to help, and that's good. MZ I explained pretty fully. mderg's contributions are good too, even though I disagree with him on both the MZ and JWZ reads. He gives good justifications for his reads. So these are 3 more that I am reasonably sure. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22633 Posts
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gobbledydook
Australia2603 Posts
On May 30 2014 23:50 Palmar wrote: Why is Ninja town? Makes good arguments, asks lots of good questions, basically the same reasons Amiko is town. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22633 Posts
On May 30 2014 23:51 gobbledydook wrote: Makes good arguments, asks lots of good questions, basically the same reasons Amiko is town. Which arguments in particular did you like and why? | ||
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sqrtofneg1
Canada1159 Posts
Me Amiko Bunnies mderg Haru gobble Palmar fuba MZ sloosh And slam isn't on there cause I literally have no idea. Townies: Amiko is making cases, and he's doing work. Town Bunnies was talking a lot D1, not as much since, but still decent enough to townread. Mderg is town. Haru is probably town. Fencies: Gobble null read Palmar - he picked it up now, I don't wanna lynch him cause he's actually asking questions and being useful. Mafia: Fuba MZ Sloosh | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On May 30 2014 13:06 Amiko wrote: Okay, reading through filters, slOosh is my top scum right now and I want to lynch him. There’s other things that I think support scumreading him, but I think this is the best point so I want to start here and build. I think the central point is: After voting jabber, slOosh does nothing to develop his feelings on jabber. He doesn't try to get explanations from jabber or even follow up after jabber's responses This is the post where slOosh joins the vote for jabber. Initially, this is worrisome because slOosh is joining the wagon in a noncommittal way. He isn’t stating what he agrees or disagrees with. This is a “+1” post. This is potentially scummy because it’s bandwagoning without commitment. But the remainder of the day is what turns from suspicious to scummy. After his vote, slOosh does almost nothing on the lynch on jabber. So, take a look at other players’ actions D1. Other players question jabber – they are not sure on the lynch, so they want to get more information or talk about the issue more with other players. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- slOosh's D1 is different from almost every other player D1 because of his lack of interaction or followup on slOosh I went through every players' filter and I think almost all of them (maybe not Slam) support my read on slOosh as uninterested in the jabber lynch. This is a little long so I'll put it in a spoiler, but I really invite you to read through it. + Show Spoiler + 27Ninjabunnies: Many tons of interaction with jabber after she votes on him. + Show Spoiler + GOSH THERE ARE SO MANY EXAMPLES. Here’s just a few – even after raising the case and voting jabber, bunnies asks him numerous questions to get more information. There’s significant back and forth between them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=6#116 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=7#126 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=8#145 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=8#150 I’m not going to list them all, there are plenty, look at bunnies’ filter, they are all over. She is not set on the lynch. This is the kind of reaction I would expect from town. Meapak_Ziphh doesn’t interact with jabber much, but he does comment on the case numerous times through D1 and explaining how he feels on the lynch. His filter doesn’t look as good as bunnies to me – he doesn’t really ask jabber anything directly or necessarily stir up discussion. I think he's kind of suspicious anyway, but he’s still better than slOosh. + Show Spoiler + Discusses reasons for joining vote - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=14#262 Says which situation he thinks is most likely - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=15#286 Still thinks jabber is best lynch - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=16#306 Directs comments to jabber (admittedly not in a helpful or inquisitive way) - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=17#333 Gobbledydook: starts off with some hesitancy on the lynch and gives fair reasons, explains his thoughts as he goes, addresses comments to jabber as well. + Show Spoiler + Comments on lynch - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=9#161 Shows more certainty after jabber’s responses - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=16#308 Explains his comment - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=16#313 Addresses comments to jabber - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=20#383 HaruRH: A lot of Haru’s talk about JWZ is responsive, but he does address JWZ directly as well and comments on the lynch multiple times through d1. As an aside, rereading Haru’s talk D1 is the main reasons I now want to push slOosh over Haru. I still have doubts, for sure, but Haru’s level of interactionwith jabber feels so much higher than slOosh’s. + Show Spoiler + Talks to JWZ telling him to look elsewhere - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=7#130 Discusses his interactions with JWZ (this is in response to a direct question, though) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=7#137 Gives updates on play (again responses to question) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=9#165 Points out something he sees as scummy http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=9#179 Talks with JWZ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=9#180 Explains thoughts (response) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=16#316 Comments on jabber http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=29#566 (more in filter) Sqrt: Sqrt was around when the case was made on jabber and interacted some with jabber and the players involved. He does ask jabber some questions and comments on jabber’s subsequent posts + Show Spoiler + Joking to jabber http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=6#113 Commenting on jabber’s response http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=6#115 Goes through reasons after voting http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=13#259, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=15#289 Specifically says jabber is his top scum http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=16#305 Comments on jabber’s subsequent posts http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=18#344 Asks for clarification from jabber http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=19#379 Alakaslam: Ehh slam doesn’t really do much better than slOosh in this respect. He does have a little more on JWZ but it’s not too substantial either. + Show Spoiler + Initial explanation of vote on jabber: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=12#240 More explanation/thought on jabber: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=14#261 Mderg, Fuba, Palmar: I’m not going back into their filters because I did a lot already, and I know these players talked a lot about the jabber wagon on D1 so I don’t really want to post links on them for no reason. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So I just went through all these players. Why? It’s certainly possible for mafia to ask questions to jabber. They probably did! But, it is really hard for me to believe that town joins a vote on jabber, yet doesn’t seem to revisit the issue, talk about its merits with other players, or get some sort of confirmation from jabber. Pretty much every player in the game discussed the jabber lynch to some extent. Maybe we questioned jabber, or we explained our thoughts on why it could be a natural mistake, a scumslip, what jabber’s followup comments meant to us, etc. slOosh doesn’t ask any questions to jabber, or really follow up on the lynch. We get his explanation here (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=12#229). After voting for jabber, slOosh's D1 is questioning other players on why they vote for jabber, talking about Slam & Palmar, etc. Seriously, take a look at his filter and see how little he has to say about the lynch that was there basically the entire day. Wheres other players expressed doubt through trying to get more information, press jabber for more information, etc., If you are town, you (like me) did not know whether jabber was mafia or not. You talked about the lynch, you read jabber's responses, and you probably considered them and wrote something about your reads. slOosh's d1 reflects indifference to the lynch. I feel that indifference comes from scum. ##Vote: slOosh Not interacting with him isn't the same thing as indifference. Jabber was in a situation where basically the entirety of town was calling him scum. The best thing to do in this situation is to ease off the pressure so we can see if he can develop some reads and absolve himself. Otherwise all his efforts are put into trying to defend himself for a mistake we now know was innocently made, and cannot be defended. Which is what he ended up doing. This led to posts like this On May 28 2014 09:20 jabberwockzerg wrote: I'm just gonna go 1 by 1 and tell what I think of everybody so far 1) Chromatically Thought his activity was suspicious at first, but rethinking about it now he doesn't seem too bad. 2) 27ninjabunnies Playing hard, throwing around leads. She could be scummy, but I'm leaning towards town for her. Nothing she's said has jumped out as questionable. 3) Meapak_Ziphh I agree with gobbledy, that his scatterbrainedness is more about a lack of confidence about his reads than scumm behavior. 4) gobbledydook no reads 5) jabberwockzerg That's me! Town, if there seems to be any confusion :D 6) mderg Not really getting much. 7) HaruRH Kinda defending me, which is cool of him. A real pal. Don't see why a Mafia would do that at all, so he's clean. 8) sqrtofneg1 and then following up with just kinda seems like a half baked WIFOM attempt from mafia to my (admittedly untrained) eyes also he has been throwing down a lot without following up on a lot. Probably my frontrunner for scum at this point. 9) slOosh not getting much 10) Amiko Good, high quality posts, but no read at this point in time 11) Alakaslam no read 12) fuba Defending me, which is great of him. No reason for a Mafia to defend me, so he's clean for me. 13) Palmar A little scummy, which has been covered but not really at the forefront of my mind. I'll be happy to answer any questions people have for the next couple hours and attempt to clear my name In hindsight we see that because his time and focus is bent on something that he admits was a mistake and is indefensible, his post quality dropped. At the time, it's not clear if this is from scum or town, because there isn't too much actual content in here. I wanted to avoid this by not adding onto the grilling of him, and instead watch what he does if left alone. This is why I started prodding other people as it's more productive than just waiting to see what jabber would say, and also maybe provide avenues for jabber to contribute. In the end jabber wasn't really able to mount any meaningful content so I left my vote on him. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
First, he puts suspicion on many people without doing it in a clear focused manner. Palmar already pointed out one of the earlier ones On May 28 2014 08:45 Palmar wrote: MZ not everyone in the game is mafia. fuba and haru look bad, jwz is your most likely scumread and you could get behind a lynch on me, and now you're telling sqrtofneg1 that he might be mafia, while in the same breath explaining to him how he can get you to drop your "suspicion". Welcome to my scum tier. On May 29 2014 04:36 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: hmm I'm a bit suspect of people trying to develop a second wagon at the same time as they're voting JWZ. Either say you've changed your mind about jwz and explain why or start developing reads for tomorrow. ##Vote: jabberwockzerg Thought there was a voting thread lol Here he does the same thing. Instead of saying "hey, making a second wagon for information is a bad idea" he says "you guys look like mafia for doing this". Not only that, but he says 'people' instead of actually calling out names. He is being vague so that if the opportunity arises, he can push that and say "look I called them out first" but if called out for it he can back out without being held responsible. Next is his really strange sqrt read progression. I point out during the night how his read on sqrt has vacillated back and forth. On May 30 2014 03:11 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: That's called a progression of a read sloosh. As you can see, at first I was not suspicious of sqrt and was simply pointing things out about his play for him to fix, then he posted more and I changed my mind because of new information. This is typically how one processes facts in a changing environment. I literally outline what's going on in the second post you quoted. It goes from "I didn't call sqrt scum" to "I'm calling sqrt scum for clearly contradicting himself" to "I am probably most suspicious of sqrt" and "However I'm not sold that makes him scum yet". There is of course progression of reads. People post and opinions can change based on such posts. However the progression is interesting because sqrt has, I believe, posted in a consistent manner where nothing seemed exceptionally strange for him. So I ask him for the reason. Here's a huge contradiction. The last phrase was "However I'm not sold that makes him scum yet". Meapak here doesn't want to call sqrt town, but at the same time he doesn't want to call him scum. At the same time, sqrt is his focus of choice! Meapak doesn't really care about figuring out sqrt, but wants to be seen as interacting and looking like he is scumhunting. On May 29 2014 17:02 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: My reason for wanting to lynch Palmar was stated here: At this point I'm not as convinced of Palmar's scumminess anymore because he's come in and been contributing a lot more than I would have expected out of scum Palmar. At the moment I don't have a burning scum read, I am probably most suspicious of sqrt because of the way he seems to drift with the general opinion of the thread like a willow in the wind. However I'm not sold that makes him scum yet, I wanna see him post for a little while longer before I make my mind up. This is his general attitude. Stay back and watch, drop in here and there to call him scum (?) or tell him how not to be scum (?), all without actually working to solidify anything in sqrt. Meapak is taking the backseat and doing nothing. On May 30 2014 16:42 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Harurh, Palmar is almost certainly town at this point fyi. imo Amiko's case on sloosh is excellent, I'm curious to see who opposes it. More sowing suspicion and disruption without actually naming names. If he felt it strong, he should have just slapped his vote on. But he doesn't. He stays back and lax, content to see town do whatever they want as long as it doesn't concern him. Meapak is scum because he throws around suspicion while being vague and avoiding responsibility, and total laxity regarding his most suspicious read sqrt. ##Vote: Meapak_Ziphh | ||
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Alakaslam
United States17336 Posts
On May 30 2014 23:13 sqrtofneg1 wrote: Back. Too bad chrom died. I'm a bit busy atm, be back soon. lol | ||
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sqrtofneg1
Canada1159 Posts
?? | ||
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27ninjabunnies
United States2486 Posts
I see votes are currently on sloosh and MZ? Ill look through each of them and give my thoughts... (Though i think i did already on sloosh. Playing two games is a lot tougher than i thought) Anything else i need to look at gentlemen? | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
First look at this post by slOosh, we’ll then talk about how it differs from other players. On May 29 2014 04:05 slOosh wrote: I think with the deadline as is, if you want to bring up someone else you should do it immediately. So, when you are offered the idea of a new wagon, you might expect a few responses. Players might propose some additional wagons, or use the situation to make reads. (ex: 27ninjabunnies, sqrt, fuba) + Show Spoiler + 27ninjabunnies: Suggests fuba as a potential other wagon (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=24#471, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=25#496). Suggests me as a potential wagon (as a reaction test) (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=25#486). Sqrt: Proposed other wagons, even ended up voting on one. Gave some reasons, even if kind of weird, why he jumped around the wagons. Was pushing for second wagons and suggested some. Fuba: Suggested wagon on gobbledygook (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=28#556) Players might comment on the idea of other wagons as good or bad. (ex: mderg, M_Z, Palmar) + Show Spoiler + mderg: Comments on my proposal of Haru as a second wagon (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=27#540). Comments on fuba’s proposal of a gobbledygook wagon (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=29#561). M_Z: Says he is suspicious of players making secondary wagons while voting for jabber (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=26#509). Also discusses Palmar as a lynch candidate, but indicates he is skeptical (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=31#603). Palmar: Tells us not to raise other wagons (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=29#565) (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=29#572) and comments on the push on himself as an alternate wagon (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=24#468) Alakaslam: Like Palmar, states he does not want alternate wagons (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=27#533). Some players don't weigh in on wagons as much, but this is at least somewhat less suspicious because they spend some time defending wagons on themselves (gobbledygook, Haru). + Show Spoiler + gobbledydook doesn’t comment much on the existence of other wagons, but he does defend again fuba’s suggestion of him as an alternate wagon. HaruRH is kind of similar in that he defends against my points on him, though he does comment some on a potential Palmar wagon it’s limited. slOosh’s comments (above) are different. He doesn’t indicate whether he wants another wagon or not – he waits to see who is proposed Here are ALL OF SLOOSH’S POSTS that come after we are discussing a second wagon until the vote. I was going to put this in a spoiler tag, but then I saw how few posts there were so why bother. On May 29 2014 03:38 slOosh wrote: I assume he was piggybacking on the "seems straightforward" aspect. @Amiko, what do you mean by second wagon? What does that look like? On May 29 2014 03:54 slOosh wrote: Did the term wagon change while I was gone? Are you guys proposing lynching someone else today? On May 29 2014 04:05 slOosh wrote: I think with the deadline as is, if you want to bring up someone else you should do it immediately. On May 29 2014 04:14 slOosh wrote: Oh I must have missed it. His posting style as is this game seems fine. I was more concerned if he was going to take it all the way ala last game, which is cause for concern as making your posts intentionally harder to read usually only makes sense from scum perspective. When I raise a wagon (as he says I should do soon) he doesn't even comment on it. So, as I said before, slOosh is scum because he doesn't weigh in on jabber, who should be a focus for the day. But, slOosh is also scum because he doesn't weigh in on any of the other wagons (Palmar, Haru, fuba) | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
@Alakaslam re: wise (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=35#688) Oh, I just got confused by the post. For some reason I thought you were saying mderg is town, wise is also town. I get it now  @Pamar re: M_Z On May 30 2014 18:23 Palmar wrote: ##vote Meapak_Ziphh Dude's calling me town for thinking he's mafia. Classic scum. I am not entirely opposed to M_Z, but when I read them both I came away feeling there were a lot more reasons to doubt slOosh and I want you to vote with me today. slOosh is scummy based on repeated action/inaction. M_Z is suspicious for sure, but to me there's a lot more reasons (and stronger reasons!) to vote slOosh. | ||
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27ninjabunnies
United States2486 Posts
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On May 30 2014 16:42 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Harurh, Palmar is almost certainly town at this point fyi. imo Amiko's case on slOosh is excellent, I'm curious to see who opposes it. Currently I hope the votes today will be on slOosh, but you are getting pressure, too. If my case is excellent, why not hop onto slOosh now so you can be a hipster with me and do it before it's cool? | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I was already sure I was going to make a case on slOosh when I asked you for your thoughts, but I was able to feel good about you as town for raising the points you did before I committed to the case. | ||
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