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On May 31 2014 05:26 Amiko wrote:
@27ninjabunnies:
I was already sure I was going to make a case on slOosh when I asked you for your thoughts, but I was able to feel good about you as town for raising the points you did before I committed to the case.
Oh really?
Umm thanks lol.
I think im actually going to bed.
I didnt get much sleep last night. Ill post later tonight though! Hopefully theres more to slooshs filter by then
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slOosh’s defense is here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=36#711 . I believe his explanation is:
(1) He says he did not push jabber because wanted to see what jabber did if jabber was left alone.
(2) He wanted to push other people, to maybe provide avenues for jabber to contribute.
#1
This isn't that arguable, but it's more likely to come from scum.
Jabber was left alone and he made comments that didn’t help us read him as town. Why would scum want to interject if jabber is doing a good job burying himself?
At least slOosh does concedes that he didn’t push jabber, though, so you don’t need to read his filter to confirm that he didn’t push on jabber.
Further, slOosh doesn't comment or push on jabber's subsequent posts. So, if he actually cared what jabber did, why did he seem to ignore what jabber did?
#2
This is not a good explanation because it is not consistent with his play.
As I pointed out here (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=36#716), slOosh really did not push other players, despite a few other wagons forming as options. I don’t see him providing new points on the players or providing a line of questioning that jabber could jump into.
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@mderg: I want your vote!!
On May 30 2014 22:13 mderg wrote:
I like the case on sloosh. I feel like it could just be lazy town, though. His play could make sense, if he took the jwz lynch for granted and didn´t really follow up on it because of that. Still he´s definitely high up in the list of suspects.
I still think MZ is scummy. I already made my case on him and I feel like it still stands.
##vote: Meapak_Ziphh
So I agree that M_Z has some scummy comments.
But going through your case on Meapak (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=29#562), I think you could vote slOosh for the same reasons.
(1)
You suspect M_Z because he doesn't make a case to follow up on suspicious.
slOosh doesn't make a case, and it's arguable whether he even makes suspicions. slOosh is scummier on this point.
(2)
You feel M_Z is scummy because he seems open to a Palmar lynch, but doesn't give reasons why.
slOosh's comment about other wagons don't even say who he might be open to as an alternative, much less the reasons why. slOosh is scummier on this point.
(3)
You actually like a few things on M_Z's comments regarding jabber.
I don't know if you like anything on slOosh. But either way, slOosh doesn't even focus on jabber. I think it's way more suspicious to basically ignore the main lynch candidate for the day.
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Sloosh isn't doing much. He does pretty much nothing D1, and now that he's under fire, he's pushing MZ, and defending himself.
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@amiko, just for clarification, you also think MZ is scummy, but you think sloosh is scummier, am I correct?
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On May 31 2014 05:07 Amiko wrote:I’ll look at thread and maybe comment on M_Z, but here’s even more reason to vote slOosh First look at this post by slOosh, we’ll then talk about how it differs from other players. Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 04:05 slOosh wrote:On May 29 2014 03:57 Amiko wrote:
@slOosh:
Maybe jabberwockzerg will be lynched today, maybe not. Either way, I'd rather have the day end where there are two people who reasonably could get lynched. In that case, our votes are more significant because they reflect an actual choice: it means people found one person scummy as compared to another person. If all the votes are on jabberwockzerg, the votes don't tell us much of anything and don't reflect a meaningful choice by the players.
Since some players don't want to vote jabberwockzerg, I want to know who their pick would be. I think with the deadline as is, if you want to bring up someone else you should do it immediately. So, when you are offered the idea of a new wagon, you might expect a few responses. Players might propose some additional wagons, or use the situation to make reads. (ex: 27ninjabunnies, sqrt, fuba) + Show Spoiler +27ninjabunnies: Suggests fuba as a potential other wagon (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=24#471, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=25#496). Suggests me as a potential wagon (as a reaction test) (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=25#486). Sqrt: Proposed other wagons, even ended up voting on one. Gave some reasons, even if kind of weird, why he jumped around the wagons. Was pushing for second wagons and suggested some. Fuba: Suggested wagon on gobbledygook (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=28#556) Players might comment on the idea of other wagons as good or bad. (ex: mderg, M_Z, Palmar) + Show Spoiler +
mderg: Comments on my proposal of Haru as a second wagon (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=27#540). Comments on fuba’s proposal of a gobbledygook wagon (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=29#561).
M_Z: Says he is suspicious of players making secondary wagons while voting for jabber (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=26#509). Also discusses Palmar as a lynch candidate, but indicates he is skeptical (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=31#603).
Palmar: Tells us not to raise other wagons (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=29#565) (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=29#572) and comments on the push on himself as an alternate wagon (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=24#468)
Alakaslam: Like Palmar, states he does not want alternate wagons (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=27#533).
Some players don't weigh in on wagons as much, but this is at least somewhat less suspicious because they spend some time defending wagons on themselves (gobbledygook, Haru). + Show Spoiler +
gobbledydook doesn’t comment much on the existence of other wagons, but he does defend again fuba’s suggestion of him as an alternate wagon.
HaruRH is kind of similar in that he defends against my points on him, though he does comment some on a potential Palmar wagon it’s limited.
. While I’m not in love with these filters, (I would have liked to see more comments on other wagons) they are still way better looking to me than slOosh. slOosh’s comments (above) are different. He doesn’t indicate whether he wants another wagon or not – he waits to see who is proposed Here are ALL OF SLOOSH’S POSTS that come after we are discussing a second wagon until the vote. I was going to put this in a spoiler tag, but then I saw how few posts there were so why bother. Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 03:38 slOosh wrote:
I assume he was piggybacking on the "seems straightforward" aspect.
@Amiko, what do you mean by second wagon? What does that look like? Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 03:54 slOosh wrote:
Did the term wagon change while I was gone?
Are you guys proposing lynching someone else today? Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 04:05 slOosh wrote:On May 29 2014 03:57 Amiko wrote:
@slOosh:
Maybe jabberwockzerg will be lynched today, maybe not. Either way, I'd rather have the day end where there are two people who reasonably could get lynched. In that case, our votes are more significant because they reflect an actual choice: it means people found one person scummy as compared to another person. If all the votes are on jabberwockzerg, the votes don't tell us much of anything and don't reflect a meaningful choice by the players.
Since some players don't want to vote jabberwockzerg, I want to know who their pick would be. I think with the deadline as is, if you want to bring up someone else you should do it immediately. Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 04:14 slOosh wrote:On May 29 2014 04:07 Amiko wrote:
@slOosh:
I'm writing now and seeing what I find. I can post what I have and continue I suppose.
Btw I asked you for a read on Alakaslam a little earlier since a fair number of your posts seemed to focus on him, can you give me any comments?
@27ninjabunnies: Nothing personal bunnies, but I'm going to ignore that post unless you give me anything to write about :x Oh I must have missed it. His posting style as is this game seems fine. I was more concerned if he was going to take it all the way ala last game, which is cause for concern as making your posts intentionally harder to read usually only makes sense from scum perspective. When I raise a wagon (as he says I should do soon) he doesn't even comment on it. So, as I said before, slOosh is scum because he doesn't weigh in on jabber, who should be a focus for the day. But, slOosh is also scum because he doesn't weigh in on any of the other wagons (Palmar, Haru, fuba)
Like I said, I didn't weigh in on Jabber because I didn't want to add pressure on him. By the end of the day he didn't produce much and so I didn't feel the need to come in and say "jabber hasn't done anything so I'm keeping my vote on him".
Given that I'm juggling two games, I can't have as a comprehensive attention as I would like to, so I chose to spend the time that I could afford for this game to figure out MZ, and get people's thoughts on him, since other people were being covered but aside from Palmar there weren't that many firm stances on MZ, and personally I felt like he was more likely to be scum than the people brought up.
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On May 31 2014 04:28 sqrtofneg1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 03:52 Alakaslam wrote:On May 30 2014 23:13 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Back.
Too bad chrom died.
I'm a bit busy atm, be back soon. lol ??
We back
Kthx bye be back in 10
K I'm back now but I'm not
This I do also so it made me laugh
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On May 31 2014 05:42 Amiko wrote:slOosh’s defense is here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=36#711 . I believe his explanation is: (1) He says he did not push jabber because wanted to see what jabber did if jabber was left alone. (2) He wanted to push other people, to maybe provide avenues for jabber to contribute. #1This isn't that arguable, but it's more likely to come from scum. Jabber was left alone and he made comments that didn’t help us read him as town. Why would scum want to interject if jabber is doing a good job burying himself? At least slOosh does concedes that he didn’t push jabber, though, so you don’t need to read his filter to confirm that he didn’t push on jabber.Further, slOosh doesn't comment or push on jabber's subsequent posts. So, if he actually cared what jabber did, why did he seem to ignore what jabber did? #2This is not a good explanation because it is not consistent with his play. As I pointed out here (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=36#716), slOosh really did not push other players, despite a few other wagons forming as options. I don’t see him providing new points on the players or providing a line of questioning that jabber could jump into.
1) Not posting about it =/= ignoring it. I took into consideration of how he acted towards deadline, but didn't find him town enough to come into the thread and try to avert the lynch.
2) Perhaps we have a different understanding of push - I'm not talking about making full blown cases on people, but posting generally about other people to get a better feel for where they are, and see where things don't hold up. Did my plan work? Evidently not. But I don't see the problem here.
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Ok, gotta head out until evening so I'll be gone for a while.
Could you guys please comment on my actual MZ case?
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On May 31 2014 06:58 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
@amiko, just for clarification, you also think MZ is scummy, but you think sloosh is scummier, am I correct?
Yeah, that's a fair description.
I think most of the complaints about M_Z apply to slOosh, except moreso. And slOosh is scummy for other reasons, too.
As an aside, I don't see slOosh voting M_Z as meaning they can't be on the same team... from my point of view they are the two best wagons right now. If slOosh wants to live, I think M_Z is probably the best alternate wagon for him to push on.
I'm only here for a bit right now I'll try to post more this evening
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Wow no one has commented in awhile, anyone around?
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I'm here. Catching up now. Anything in particular you'd like to discuss?
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I HAVE NOTHING BUT CHUPAZI TO SAY
SO I AM SILENT
Hello.
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I mean. Idk. I prob need to read the last few pages, but im super tired... Lol
Yeah, i think ill just post in the morning.
Sloosh, palmer, mz probz scum.
Will discuss later
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Maybe even sqrt... I almost forgot about that dude.
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I'm tired and there haven't been too many posts so I'm going to be smart and sleep instead of trying to talk more about slOosh right now :D
@slOosh
- You did make a defense against my larger case (I don't find it convincing). Do you have any separate response to the points Chrom raised on you from D1?
- What do you think is your best post from D1? Or like, the best thing you did D1?
- Do you have any recent thoughts on Palmar/sqrt/Alakaslam?
@bunnies:
slOosh/palmar/M_Z is possible, but if so scum really likes to push each other. I mean, I don't feel that slOosh and M_Z pushing each other makes them not scum, but I feel like the interactions with M_Z<->Palmar make them less likely to both be scum. And I remember Palmar was reading the scumteam as slOosh/M_Z/gobble so I wonder if he would list both teammates as scumreads he would be willing to lynch?
I have some other comments but they can wait until later if I remember them.
I have a meeting thing in the morning so I'm not too sure where I will be tomorrow, I will try hard to be here before votes. If anyone feels like being helpful, please talk with (M_Z about Sloosh) and (Sloosh about M_Z) some because I meant to do that and then got tired.
vote sloosh though :3
night!!
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I'm glad you mentioned sqrt, because he's someone who's stuck out to me.
His reason for unvoting jabber and voting palmar was that lynches like that end up being wrong. It turns out that he was right, but isn't that a really, really strange reason to unvote someone when you have legitimate reasons to believe he's scum in front of you? Then he swaps back to jabber in order to get more information, even though he thinks palmar is scummier. He then unvotes jabber because of his defense. Not the content of his defense, because that was scummy. He basically unvoted because jabber gave A reason. It wasn't a "too scummy to be scum" argument, it was just - he gave a reason, I think he's town. Then while interacting with Chrom, he says that he doesn't think jabber is town (except he actually did explicitly say "I think he's town now."), but he thinks there's a possibility that jabber is town. This is a really strange thing to say as town because unless someone is somehow modconfirmed scum, there is always the possibility that they're town. That's a given, it's understood by everyone. But he reiterates the fact that he thinks jabber is scummy, but might be town, but might also be scum, about 3-4 times.
There's also the fact that he says he wants to lynch jabber for the information earlier on in the day, and later says that he gained no information from the lynch. Clearly his reason for voting jabber at that time was bs, because if you've noticed something that will give you information based on jabber's flip, that thing doesn't just disappear.
Then there's his read of me. He suggests me as a possible scum wagon rivaling that of jabber. Seems to indicate that he's really sure of it. But when jabber flips town, which I would have expected to increase his scumread on me, he doesn't mention me at all. Nothing whatsoever until:
On May 30 2014 02:31 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
The gobble and fuba interaction really, really looks like town interacting with town.
This isn't something you say about your strong scumread.
However:
On May 30 2014 09:10 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Okay guys, I g2g, won't be back until tomorrow.
If I die:
You need to keep an eye on palmar, he needs to do more.
I like fuba, mderg, and amiko.
I'm back on his town list. On the same level as mderg and amiko, who I feel is almost positively town. I went from one of his top scumreads to one of his towniest reads, after the jabber lynch revealed that whatever small contributions I had were in favor of what turned out to be a mislynch. And even if I'm reading too much into me being on this list with amiko, he still considers me town. I don't see why this would be his reaction to the D1 lynch.
But the next day:
On May 31 2014 00:41 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Okay, town totem so far:
Me
Amiko
Bunnies
mderg
Haru
gobble
Palmar
fuba
MZ
sloosh
And slam isn't on there cause I literally have no idea.
Townies:
Amiko is making cases, and he's doing work. Town
Bunnies was talking a lot D1, not as much since, but still decent enough to townread.
Mderg is town.
Haru is probably town.
Fencies:
Gobble null read
Palmar - he picked it up now, I don't wanna lynch him cause he's actually asking questions and being useful.
Mafia:
Fuba
MZ
Sloosh
Suddenly I'm back on the scumlist. These are the only mentions of me after his case. This is more than just changing his mind, this is two unexplained and absolute reversals of his read - after an event that should have straight-up solidified his scumread of me if it was legitimate.
And finally there's the little things, like the fact that he started the game talking about himself being mafia, and that he seemed concerned about having said "I've rolled mafia twice" instead of "I've never rolled mafia except twice", when it would have been clear what he meant without the correction. And pointing out someone who might be blue even though there's no reason for town to do so.
I'm actually getting too tired to keep my eyes open at this point, so I'll leave it at this for now. I'll take a closer look at slOosh and MZ tomorrow, and see if I think either one is scummier than sqrt. I've read the cases, but haven't filtered them too well. In case it wasn't clear in my last post, I'm really unsure about gobble at this point. He did ignore my questions, he does feel like he's not reading everything I'm writing, and it feels like he's simply refusing to believe I could possibly be town. Could be stubborn, could be scum. I don't know anymore, and it seems like it's kinda off the table for the moment. Even if he is scum, there's two others out there so I'm looking for them for now.
##Vote: sqrtofneg1
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On May 31 2014 15:39 Amiko wrote:
@slOosh
- You did make a defense against my larger case (I don't find it convincing). Do you have any separate response to the points Chrom raised on you from D1?
The context of the quote is bunny's question
On May 28 2014 02:20 27ninjabunnies wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 02:09 slOosh wrote:
Seems straightforward.
##Vote: jabberwockzerg Hi there slOosh. You are okay with this lynch. Why? And do you have anything else to comment?
The slip was straightforward, and when asked for additional comment, I added something else that I saw.
On May 31 2014 15:39 Amiko wrote:
@slOosh
- What do you think is your best post from D1? Or like, the best thing you did D1?
I don't know how to answer this question. I think the best thing thus far is my MZ case.
On May 31 2014 15:39 Amiko wrote:
@slOosh
- Do you have any recent thoughts on Palmar/sqrt/Alakaslam?
Palmar:
I think his night time posting was very reasonable, particularly how he directed town. It reflects he is considering the possibility of death which is something scum don't do. HaruRH's suspicion of him is stymied by the fact that Palmar does indeed not read OPs, so it's not very telling.
sqrt:
I think his style of posting is very fluid and stream of thought, which is difficult for scum to pull off. There are red flags here and there (talking about blues, doing 180s etc.) but it looks like naivete rather than malicious intent. I have a hard time thinking scum could post so unabashedly.
Alakaslam:
His style of posting definitely bothers me at this point, since even though he makes some reads (?), he leaves out his thinking process entirely so it's hard to see where he comes from. Additionally, he has still yet to make any read on Meapak.
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was drunk, am a bit behind now. Will read when head feels better.
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EPT
