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Okay, reading through filters, slOosh is my top scum right now and I want to lynch him.
There’s other things that I think support scumreading him, but I think this is the best point so I want to start here and build.
I think the central point is: After voting jabber, slOosh does nothing to develop his feelings on jabber. He doesn't try to get explanations from jabber or even follow up after jabber's responses
This is the post where slOosh joins the vote for jabber.
On May 28 2014 02:09 slOosh wrote:
Seems straightforward.
##Vote: jabberwockzerg
Initially, this is worrisome because slOosh is joining the wagon in a noncommittal way. He isn’t stating what he agrees or disagrees with. This is a “+1” post. This is potentially scummy because it’s bandwagoning without commitment. But the remainder of the day is what turns from suspicious to scummy.
After his vote, slOosh does almost nothing on the lynch on jabber. So, take a look at other players’ actions D1. Other players question jabber – they are not sure on the lynch, so they want to get more information or talk about the issue more with other players.
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slOosh's D1 is different from almost every other player D1 because of his lack of interaction or followup on slOosh
I went through every players' filter and I think almost all of them (maybe not Slam) support my read on slOosh as uninterested in the jabber lynch. This is a little long so I'll put it in a spoiler, but I really invite you to read through it.
+ Show Spoiler +27Ninjabunnies:Many tons of interaction with jabber after she votes on him. + Show Spoiler +Meapak_Ziphh doesn’t interact with jabber much, but he does comment on the case numerous times through D1 and explaining how he feels on the lynch. His filter doesn’t look as good as bunnies to me – he doesn’t really ask jabber anything directly or necessarily stir up discussion. I think he's kind of suspicious anyway, but he’s still better than slOosh. + Show Spoiler +Gobbledydook:starts off with some hesitancy on the lynch and gives fair reasons, explains his thoughts as he goes, addresses comments to jabber as well. + Show Spoiler +HaruRH:A lot of Haru’s talk about JWZ is responsive, but he does address JWZ directly as well and comments on the lynch multiple times through d1. As an aside, rereading Haru’s talk D1 is the main reasons I now want to push slOosh over Haru. I still have doubts, for sure, but Haru’s level of interactionwith jabber feels so much higher than slOosh’s. + Show Spoiler +Sqrt:Sqrt was around when the case was made on jabber and interacted some with jabber and the players involved. He does ask jabber some questions and comments on jabber’s subsequent posts + Show Spoiler +Alakaslam: Ehh slam doesn’t really do much better than slOosh in this respect. He does have a little more on JWZ but it’s not too substantial either. + Show Spoiler +Mderg, Fuba, Palmar: I’m not going back into their filters because I did a lot already, and I know these players talked a lot about the jabber wagon on D1 so I don’t really want to post links on them for no reason.
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So I just went through all these players. Why?
It’s certainly possible for mafia to ask questions to jabber. They probably did!
But, it is really hard for me to believe that town joins a vote on jabber, yet doesn’t seem to revisit the issue, talk about its merits with other players, or get some sort of confirmation from jabber.
Pretty much every player in the game discussed the jabber lynch to some extent. Maybe we questioned jabber, or we explained our thoughts on why it could be a natural mistake, a scumslip, what jabber’s followup comments meant to us, etc.
slOosh doesn’t ask any questions to jabber, or really follow up on the lynch. We get his explanation here (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=12#229).
After voting for jabber, slOosh's D1 is questioning other players on why they vote for jabber, talking about Slam & Palmar, etc. Seriously, take a look at his filter and see how little he has to say about the lynch that was there basically the entire day.
Wheres other players expressed doubt through trying to get more information, press jabber for more information, etc.,
If you are town, you (like me) did not know whether jabber was mafia or not. You talked about the lynch, you read jabber's responses, and you probably considered them and wrote something about your reads.
slOosh's d1 reflects indifference to the lynch. I feel that indifference comes from scum.
##Vote: slOosh
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EBWOP:
slOosh's D1 is different from almost every other player D1 because of his lack of interaction or followup on slOosh
should be
slOosh's D1 is different from almost every other player D1 because of his lack of interaction or followup on jabber
:x
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Also, Chromatically made good points on slOosh’s reactions D1 – see his post here:
On May 30 2014 06:35 Chromatically wrote:(cut)One thing I thought was weird when I reread the early part of the day was how people rationalized their sheep onto jabber. I think that scum would not want to sheep on purely on the basis of the "slip", because scum would know that the slip had to come from town and was not actually scummy. So, scum would want to add additional justification. Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 02:26 slOosh wrote:On May 28 2014 02:20 27ninjabunnies wrote:On May 28 2014 02:09 slOosh wrote:
Seems straightforward.
##Vote: jabberwockzerg Hi there slOosh. You are okay with this lynch. Why? And do you have anything else to comment? On May 27 2014 11:20 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Counter point: he could have been super into last game because he was mafia, and isn't as into being vanilla town. On May 27 2014 11:21 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Definitely leaving towards scum though Calls Chrom scum, but also maybe town, for no reason. Very wishy washy, but interested in something of this Chrom lynch. I think combined with other different aspects brought up thus far, this is a very solid D1 lynch. Sloosh doesn't actually speak out against the slip at all, as someone would do if they actually disagreed with it. He just adds this additional (pretty weak) justification on top of it. This doesn't feel like his original vote post, which appears like he's voting purely for reasons already stated: Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 02:09 slOosh wrote:
Seems straightforward.
##Vote: jabberwockzerg Scum sloosh would feel awkward about pushing jabber based on his not-actually-scummy slip. So when he is asked for justification for his vote, he feels the need to add something else that isn't actually that strong. He doesn't want to look like he's just sheeping AND he doesn't want to sheep on the slip that he knows is false. His filter doesn't look like he's trying to solve the game at all. He's got some softball questions to people, but doesn't push or pressure anyone. He almost never gives his actual thoughts on anything. (cut)I'm unfortunately out of time so I can't get to the rest of the people but that's what I really wanted to hit on. Top two scum are Sloosh and MZ.
Just to be clear, Chrom’s points are not good because he died. Mafia can kill people whether they are right or wrong.
Chrom's post here is good because he points out slOosh’s weak justification, filter that doesn’t seem to be searching for information, and softball questions from slOosh that reflect that slOosh is not trying to figure out the game.
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On May 30 2014 13:06 Amiko wrote:Okay, reading through filters, slOosh is my top scum right now and I want to lynch him. There’s other things that I think support scumreading him, but I think this is the best point so I want to start here and build. I think the central point is: After voting jabber, slOosh does nothing to develop his feelings on jabber. He doesn't try to get explanations from jabber or even follow up after jabber's responsesThis is the post where slOosh joins the vote for jabber. Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 02:09 slOosh wrote:
Seems straightforward.
##Vote: jabberwockzerg Initially, this is worrisome because slOosh is joining the wagon in a noncommittal way. He isn’t stating what he agrees or disagrees with. This is a “+1” post. This is potentially scummy because it’s bandwagoning without commitment. But the remainder of the day is what turns from suspicious to scummy.After his vote, slOosh does almost nothing on the lynch on jabber. So, take a look at other players’ actions D1. Other players question jabber – they are not sure on the lynch, so they want to get more information or talk about the issue more with other players. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- slOosh's D1 is different from almost every other player D1 because of his lack of interaction or followup on slOoshI went through every players' filter and I think almost all of them (maybe not Slam) support my read on slOosh as uninterested in the jabber lynch. This is a little long so I'll put it in a spoiler, but I really invite you to read through it. + Show Spoiler +27Ninjabunnies:Many tons of interaction with jabber after she votes on him. + Show Spoiler +Meapak_Ziphh doesn’t interact with jabber much, but he does comment on the case numerous times through D1 and explaining how he feels on the lynch. His filter doesn’t look as good as bunnies to me – he doesn’t really ask jabber anything directly or necessarily stir up discussion. I think he's kind of suspicious anyway, but he’s still better than slOosh. + Show Spoiler +Gobbledydook:starts off with some hesitancy on the lynch and gives fair reasons, explains his thoughts as he goes, addresses comments to jabber as well. + Show Spoiler +HaruRH:A lot of Haru’s talk about JWZ is responsive, but he does address JWZ directly as well and comments on the lynch multiple times through d1. As an aside, rereading Haru’s talk D1 is the main reasons I now want to push slOosh over Haru. I still have doubts, for sure, but Haru’s level of interactionwith jabber feels so much higher than slOosh’s. + Show Spoiler +Sqrt:Sqrt was around when the case was made on jabber and interacted some with jabber and the players involved. He does ask jabber some questions and comments on jabber’s subsequent posts + Show Spoiler +Alakaslam: Ehh slam doesn’t really do much better than slOosh in this respect. He does have a little more on JWZ but it’s not too substantial either. + Show Spoiler +Mderg, Fuba, Palmar: I’m not going back into their filters because I did a lot already, and I know these players talked a lot about the jabber wagon on D1 so I don’t really want to post links on them for no reason. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So I just went through all these players. Why? It’s certainly possible for mafia to ask questions to jabber. They probably did! But, it is really hard for me to believe that town joins a vote on jabber, yet doesn’t seem to revisit the issue, talk about its merits with other players, or get some sort of confirmation from jabber.Pretty much every player in the game discussed the jabber lynch to some extent. Maybe we questioned jabber, or we explained our thoughts on why it could be a natural mistake, a scumslip, what jabber’s followup comments meant to us, etc. slOosh doesn’t ask any questions to jabber, or really follow up on the lynch. We get his explanation here (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=12#229). After voting for jabber, slOosh's D1 is questioning other players on why they vote for jabber, talking about Slam & Palmar, etc. Seriously, take a look at his filter and see how little he has to say about the lynch that was there basically the entire day. Wheres other players expressed doubt through trying to get more information, press jabber for more information, etc., If you are town, you (like me) did not know whether jabber was mafia or not. You talked about the lynch, you read jabber's responses, and you probably considered them and wrote something about your reads. slOosh's d1 reflects indifference to the lynch. I feel that indifference comes from scum. ##Vote: slOosh
good points there. However, given such little examples of sloosh's words, there is still a chance that he is town.
Town sloosh may not talk much and elaborate since it is still day 1, a bandwagon is forming out of control and he is a VT with nothing much to do.
scum sloosh will be trying to avoid attention d1 and bandwagon just for the sake of it. Also, the lack of empathy towards jwz points him towards an anomaly route - more likely to be scum.
still, I would want to wait for his responses before I vote.
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United States17336 Posts
I was roleblock beback half hour
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@HaruRH:
That's fair. I was going to wait to finish the case later, but figured I should post sooner so he can defend/explain.
I feel pretty good voting slOosh now, though, because to me the scummy actions are spread out over the course of the day.
It's not a scumslip comment where there's one thing to explain - here, there's a pattern of action (well, inaction).
On May 30 2014 14:31 HaruRH wrote:
Town sloosh may not talk much and elaborate since it is still day 1, a bandwagon is forming out of control and he is a VT with nothing much to do.
This raises another point I think I can bring up that weighs in favor of seeing slOosh as scummy.
slOosh has played mafia on forums previously. From the database post:
+ Show Spoiler +
Okay, to be fair the last game listed here was back in 9/2013, so I don't feel like a meta read on him is likely to be that all that reliable. And, it's not like someone is going to be great at mafia just because they have played it a few times.
However, I do feel like having prior games makes it less likely he would see the wagon on jabber as "out of control" or that he "wouldn't have much to do" - VTs have as much work to do as power roles do on D1, if not more.
Even then, it doesn't make sense why slOosh would be basically the only player who isn't attentive to the jabberwock wagon.
I think that just doesn't make sense from a town point of view.
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United States17336 Posts
Ok so I threw that out there, I was roleblocked, now I read up.
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United States17336 Posts
On May 30 2014 12:41 Amiko wrote:@Alakaslam: Two questions: (1) What does the second post mean? I assume "wise" is a person but I don't know who. wtf it says United States over your avatar?
In English "wise" means having te ability to correctly use and discern knowledge. So I am tossing in with the things I have said about mderg the opinion that he is wiseShow nested quote +On May 28 2014 15:22 Amiko wrote:On May 28 2014 11:55 Alakaslam wrote:On May 28 2014 09:59 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Slam, what do you think of Amiko so far? Haven't read him but he has agree with me usually so. There is that What did I agree with you about? I don't think I've really interacted with you this game besides a quick comment on your playstyle which wasn't direct. So I am confused a little by this post. (2) Could you answer this one? I'm not sure what you were referring to as far as agreeing i mean we have been thinking the same thing on a lot of people. Hard to scumread you for that
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United States17336 Posts
Yet, oddly, I give you another example of us agreeing .
##Vote: Sloosh
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I think I could throw my weight behind a sloosh vote.
I have a feeling the mafia team is sloosh, MZ, Gobbley
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On May 30 2014 16:04 Alakaslam wrote:
Yet, oddly, I give you another example of us agreeing .
##Vote: Sloosh
So... why? Care to elaborate?
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United States17336 Posts
On May 30 2014 16:23 HaruRH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2014 16:04 Alakaslam wrote:
Yet, oddly, I give you another example of us agreeing .
##Vote: Sloosh So... why? Care to elaborate?
Yes. Amiko's case is sufficiently good.
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Harurh, Palmar is almost certainly town at this point fyi.
imo Amiko's case on sloosh is excellent, I'm curious to see who opposes it.
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On May 28 2014 16:48 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:K sqrt I'm starting to have a serious problem here. You go from this: Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 10:19 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Here's what I think is going to happen, according to the sqrtofneg1 rule.
jwz is gonna be lynched, gonna flip vt.
Palmar is gonna end up scum.
I honestly don't think anyone will move their vote away from jwz. I don't expect anyone to, also.
But I kind of think he's town. To this: Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 10:25 Chromatically wrote:
sqrt why are you not convincing people to vote for Palmar? Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 10:26 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Cause I don't think it will happen.
And I also think there's a good chance that jwz is scum too. You can't "think he's town" and think he's scum too" at the same time. This is actually pretty scummy imo. Oh hey 27NB: Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 11:08 27ninjabunnies wrote:On May 28 2014 10:59 Chromatically wrote:
this is quite possibly the finest scumhunting tl has seen in ages Hey im scumhunting.... So im thinking, Team for mafia: Jabber/Sqrt/mderg Or Jabber/palmer/mderg Something like that, Id lynch both jabber and mderg though I also am really digging this post here although I disagree with mderg and I'd insert someone else, who I'm not sure of yet. So Palmar, just so the record is straight, now I'm calling sqrt scum for clearly contradicting himself in an attempt to be vague and not get caught supporting the wrong person.
Now that I re-read MZ's filter, nothing makes sense.
1) He is lynching according to bandwagons.
he said that me and fuba were the most scum, after jabber. Right after that, he agreed that palmar and sqrt are the scummiest. He did not provide any sort of reasons or arguments as to why sqrt is his main suspect (that short paragraph is not a good argument).
2) Had more reasons to lynch others such as palmar, but voted for jwz at the last minute.
He had a long argument with palmar and have already locked on palmar as scum, yet voted for jwz with no explanation of his last minute choice. No substantial evidence to vote for jwz, yet went for it.
3) not really a main point but, palmar did not die.
This is more of a slippery slope argument as the very fact that palmar did not die seems to indicate that the rivalry between palmar and MZ ha e protected palmar. In no way would palmar ever die of mafia should this be true.
Overall, I would vote MZ until he decides to explain himself properly.
##vote : Meapak_Ziphh
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On May 30 2014 16:47 HaruRH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 16:48 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:K sqrt I'm starting to have a serious problem here. You go from this: On May 28 2014 10:19 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Here's what I think is going to happen, according to the sqrtofneg1 rule.
jwz is gonna be lynched, gonna flip vt.
Palmar is gonna end up scum.
I honestly don't think anyone will move their vote away from jwz. I don't expect anyone to, also.
But I kind of think he's town. To this: On May 28 2014 10:25 Chromatically wrote:
sqrt why are you not convincing people to vote for Palmar? On May 28 2014 10:26 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Cause I don't think it will happen.
And I also think there's a good chance that jwz is scum too. You can't "think he's town" and think he's scum too" at the same time. This is actually pretty scummy imo. Oh hey 27NB: On May 28 2014 11:08 27ninjabunnies wrote:On May 28 2014 10:59 Chromatically wrote:
this is quite possibly the finest scumhunting tl has seen in ages Hey im scumhunting.... So im thinking, Team for mafia: Jabber/Sqrt/mderg Or Jabber/palmer/mderg Something like that, Id lynch both jabber and mderg though I also am really digging this post here although I disagree with mderg and I'd insert someone else, who I'm not sure of yet. So Palmar, just so the record is straight, now I'm calling sqrt scum for clearly contradicting himself in an attempt to be vague and not get caught supporting the wrong person. Now that I re-read MZ's filter, nothing makes sense. 1) He is lynching according to bandwagons.he said that me and fuba were the most scum, after jabber. Right after that, he agreed that palmar and sqrt are the scummiest. He did not provide any sort of reasons or arguments as to why sqrt is his main suspect (that short paragraph is not a good argument). 2) Had more reasons to lynch others such as palmar, but voted for jwz at the last minute. He had a long argument with palmar and have already locked on palmar as scum, yet voted for jwz with no explanation of his last minute choice. No substantial evidence to vote for jwz, yet went for it. 3) not really a main point but, palmar did not die. This is more of a slippery slope argument as the very fact that palmar did not die seems to indicate that the rivalry between palmar and MZ ha e protected palmar. In no way would palmar ever die of mafia should this be true. Overall, I would vote MZ until he decides to explain himself properly. ##vote : Meapak_Ziphh
Well I'm glad to see you've taken my advice on Palmar, what do I need to explain? Your first point must be a reference to some post I made at the beginning of the game because I certainly no longer hold that Palmar read. Your other problem is that I didn't explain why I found sqrt scummy well enough... I thought I was pretty clear tbh. I voted jwz "last minute" because I had forgot to vote before that and yeah, there was pretty good evidence against jwz, right from the start he looked bad and none of the posts he made to save himself struck me as townie. Your third point is WIFOM and I'm not gonna even bother.
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Vote count:
Meapak_Ziphh (1) - HaruRH
slOosh(2) - Amiko, Alakaslam
Not voting (8) : - 27ninjabunnies, Meapak_Ziphh, gobbledydook, mderg, sqrtofneg1, slOosh, fuba, Palmar
Currently slOosh is set to be lynched!
Day ends in
PM me if you see a mistake!
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##vote Meapak_Ziphh
Dude's calling me town for thinking he's mafia. Classic scum.
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An analysis of Meapak_Ziphh's posts
By post number:
1)He's agreeing with 27ninjabunnies' accusation of JWZ, and then suggests to find another possible lynch target, his picks being fuba and haru for their defense of JWZ.
2) Follow-up to first post.
3) Quoting a post from Amiko who has a bit there agreeing with his fuba/haru suspicion.
4) Clarifies the reason why he finds fuba/haru suspicious, ie their way of defending JWZ, and compares it to mderg's defense which he finds towny.
5) Criticizes sqrt for lynching for info.
6) Out of nowhere, raises the possibility of a Palmar lynch, but then suggests a JWZ lynch as the clearest option.
7) Criticizes sqrt for being vague. Tells sqrt what to do to contribute more.
8) Explains the reason for his criticism of sqrt, saying that he just wants to help sqrt improve his town play.
9) Reiterates his stance that he didn't threaten sqrt with a scumread, repeats his suspicions of haru/fuba. Then uses meta to classify Palmar's play as scum play.
10) Basically same as 7.
11) Dismisses JWZ's reads list as unconvincing.
12) Quotes 27ninjabunnies' argument to support 11.
13) Now reads sqrt as scum, based on some quotes of sqrt being wishy washy on JWZ's alignment.
14) Attacks Palmar for what he sees as taking a potshot at him, seeing it fail, and trying to back off.
15) Now criticizes people for trying to start a second wagon. You might notice that this contradicts (1).
16) Attacks sqrt for voicing his blue read.
17) Attacks sqrt for now voting JWZ when before, he was defending him.
18) Backs off his Palmar read based on Palmar's contributions after his last read.
19) Responds to sloosh's ??? by saying his views on sqrt changed progressively.
20) Clarifies that he now thinks of sqrt as scum.
21) Now says Palmar is certainly town, and says he likes the case on sloosh.
22) Defending himself from haru's attack. Says that he has already changed his read on Palmar, explained his sqrt scum read already, and gives 'forgetting to vote before' as a reason for voting JWZ late. Dismisses the fact that Palmar didn't die as a WIFOM argument.
Comments: Let's look at some vocal opponents of MZ.
a) Palmar
Palmar says MZ is scum because
1) The choice of words he used to criticize sqrt seemed strange
2 MZ grossly misrepresents Palmar's accusation of him as 'backing off'.
3)"MZ reads Palmar town because Palmar reads MZ scum".
My responses:
1) Assuming that MZ is scum as Palmar believes, why would he go about defending sqrt in such a roundabout way? No one was attacking sqrt. He could have fabricated a bogus accusation on someone else and it would have been less suspicious. The fact that he changed his read from sqrt town to sqrt scum , when there was never any traction for a sqrt wagon, suggests that it had nothing to do with trying to get on a bandwagon. The most likely explanation is that MZ is a town who wants everyone to contribute, so much that he lectures sqrt about his vagueness, and then gets disappointed by sqrt's refusal to improve.
2) I think this is just a case of misunderstanding. Palmar didn't spell out 'I THINK MZ IS MAFIA' in that post, and his annoying habit of referring to sqrtofneg1 as i (it's true, but it is confusing) makes his posts easy to misunderstand on first sight. It took me a couple rereads to get what he was saying.
3) MZ never said he read Palmar town because Palmar was reading him scum, he said he changed his Palmar read to town because Palmar contributed in a way he liked, which ties back to the first point. He wants everyone to contribute, and he is pleased by Palmar's contributions. Problem?
b) haru
Haru's arguments
1) He is lynching according to bandwagons
2) Had more reasons to lynch others such as palmar, but voted for jwz at the last minute.
3) palmar did not die.
my responses:
1) There was only ever one bandwagon in day 1, and that was JWZ's bandwagon. If you say he is lynching according to bandwagons then half the town has lynched according to bandwagon and everyone's guilty? Something doesn't hold here. If you say his Palmar, sqrt, haru, fuba reads were bandwagons, then no? There was never any traction and he never voted for anyone. I don't really think calling reads as bandwagons is legit.
2) Literally his vote had no impact by the time he casted it. He could have casted it on Barack Obama and nothing would have changed; JWZ was a dead man. He's gotta put his vote on someone, and since he cleared Palmar already, and sqrt had no traction, he went with what everyone voted.
3) Yeah, that's really WIFOM. You could argue that mafia didn't kill someone because they were wrong, or they didn't kill someone because they wanted to game that argument, and so on. Using mafia kills to determine whether someone was on the right track doens't get you anywhere.
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so who is mafia then gobbley?
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On May 30 2014 21:37 Palmar wrote:
so who is mafia then gobbley?
My strongest read so far is fuba because of the way he's accusing me.
I have skimmed through the sloosh arguments, and I'll come up with a detailed read like this one later.
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EPT
