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fuba
United States663 Posts
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fuba
United States663 Posts
Proof is in bunnies filter. Weeeeee D1~ | ||
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fuba
United States663 Posts
...Though now that I think of it, unless the scumteam is the exact three people it was last time, then jabber would be incredibly unlikely to intentionally lie about who was on it, since at least one scum from last game would be town this game and would point out that he's lying. So either this was just a mistake on his part or I'm misunderstanding some part of the interaction. Either way, I'm pretty sure I've talked myself out of this... ##Unvote | ||
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fuba
United States663 Posts
On May 27 2014 21:07 Chromatically wrote: I don't like this choice of words so soon after you voted him, though. This makes it seem like you know he is town. I disagree with this because it doesn't make sense as either alignment. It's clearly a bad move for town, and also for scum because it serves no purpose other than to make yourself look suspicious. However, it's more likely to come from scum because scum has factors like nervousness, wanting to look good/push something, artificial reads, etc that would cause them to slip up and lie for no reason. I don't really see scum as more likely to post something like that so carelessly, particularly because I can see no reason to do so. It seems like too much oversight with no payoff. | ||
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fuba
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fuba
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fuba
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On May 28 2014 01:24 mderg wrote: I don´t like this lynch at all. I don´t see what he did as alignment indicative because it doesn´t really make sense as either town or scum. So why is it more likely to be done by scum than by town? fuba: Weren´t you against this lynch? Why the vote on jabberwockzerg now? My position was that since it made no sense to lie as either alignment, I felt it was more likely a mistake. And I felt that this mistake was more likely to come from town rather than scum. His defense, however, is that he was actually hiding information and encouraging a possibility that he knew for a fact was incorrect. That makes it scummy. | ||
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fuba
United States663 Posts
On May 28 2014 01:36 mderg wrote: I don´t think obvious lies make people scum. It´s just too easy to figure out to actually make it scummy. It wasn't an obvious lie to him. I mean, he knew it was a lie, but he didn't know that we would all know it was a lie. The only thing that's making me uneasy is that if he is scum, he chose this defense -_- | ||
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fuba
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fuba
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On May 28 2014 02:20 slOosh wrote: What changed? His defense. | ||
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fuba
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His scummates from last game would know he was scum, regardless of whether or not the scumteam was revealed to all of us. Therefore, the lie would be caught for sure, unless the scumteam was exactly the same as last game, which I doubt XD | ||
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fuba
United States663 Posts
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fuba
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I'd also like to point out that jabber hasn't been defending himself or offering an alternative wagon for the last 20 hours or so. This tends to be a scum reaction to a large wagon building against them, rather than a town reaction. If anyone has a specific person they'd like me to comment on, I might have time to squeeze in a filter dive before the deadline. My quick read through the thread didn't leave a whole lot of time for contemplation. I can say that no one struck me as more likely to be scum than jabber. I know a few people asked me specific questions, so I'll try to answer those in the meantime. Just gotta find 'em. | ||
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fuba
United States663 Posts
His initial reaction to bunnies' case, as well as his follow-up reaction to Palmar seem to indicate that he didn't read the entire case against jabber before disagreeing with it (twice), which I don't feel bodes well for him. I think his jump on the wagon also seems kinda strange, since the reason is kinda lame. I mean, there were plenty of ways in which jabber "admitted guilt", and the fact that he said a stone fell on him is the least of those. It's like he's not really thinking about the game. Problem with this is that it could just be general laziness, rather than him being scum. On May 28 2014 10:48 gobbledydook wrote: You are basically copying what sqrt said about Palmar and not really saying anything about your town reads. I feel sorry for having tried to defend you, you have made no useful contributions all day. All you did is flail around like a magikarp out of water screaming im a noob. Which makes me highly suspect if you aren't flailing on purpose. If jabber flips scum, this quote would make me think gobble is likely town. This was kind of jabber's last stand, and I don't think the scumteam would shoot down their ally like that. Unless it was some kind of elaborate plan to give gobble some slight towncred after the flip, but that's kinda out there. I do have to say that I don't entirely understand what that last sentence means. As for what he's said about MZ, I'd have to form an opinion of MZ for myself first XD | ||
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fuba
United States663 Posts
On May 29 2014 07:05 sqrtofneg1 wrote: I propose a new wagon: Fuba. He votes jwz, and then unvotes him the next post with this explanation: Soon after, he votes him again. His next significant post, and his last post is this: Has there been significant discussion about jwz? Also, I disagree that the fact that he hasn't defended himself or offered an alternative wagon indicates that he's scum. I feel that jwz's attitude right now is more like a town who's resigned to being mislynched. This guy hasn't made much contributions. This guy doesn't look like town to me. This guy is scum. ##Vote: fuba lol | ||
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On May 27 2014 21:28 Palmar wrote: Okay I'll be a good sheep. ##vote jabberwockzerg To put in clear terms what the problem I, and clearly others, have is: The point isn't that you screwed it up. The point is that you brought up an argument that you already know is invalid. I don't see any motivation for someone who is town to do that. Unless you can explain why as town it makes sense for you to throw something you know will not help solve the issue at hand into the mix, we're going to have to lynch you. I'm fine with not doing anything else today. This is better than most day 1 lynch opportunities we get. @jabberwockzerg: if you're somehow town, now is your time to step up. On May 27 2014 23:50 gobbledydook wrote: Palmar I think there is actually a good motivation for him to say those words. If he had not read the last mafia qt to find out who was mafia and only relied on his memory and impressions, he would logically make that comment about differing playstyles. Sure what he said is factually incorrect but I believe it was an honest mistake. Is the second quote not about the first quote? | ||
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United States663 Posts
On May 29 2014 09:13 HaruRH wrote: In fact, palmar seemed to have been baited. It is obvious to VT that we dont know the setup - but palmar is second guessing his own decision of not knowing the setup. A townie will not state 'I don't think', but use stronger words that indicate full understanding of the rules. Therefore, palmar is either scum or ignorant and I would go with scum. I will keep an eye out for more of his posts. Eh, he also didn't know that there wasn't a vigi in this game (I think that was him). I think he just plays mafia and checks the setup if it's really important for him to do so. Actually, mafia would know that they were given the setup, so I think scum palmar would be more likely to actually know that town doesn't know. If that makes sense, haha. | ||
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On May 29 2014 10:11 gobbledydook wrote: First I must disagree with your criticisms of me, the gist of the case against jabber is that he went about lying to conceal information, and then backed that up with really shit defenses, the one which caught my eye at the time I voted him being the 'caught on a stone' argument. That was the last straw for me. If someone's town they just don't say they got 'caught' which implies they were thinking from a mafia mindset, where mafia can be 'caught'. Of course jabber follows with some more shit defenses, including his list of reads which has no reads actually, and I was criticizing that post for its lack of content. I don't understand how that is 'not reading the whole thread'. I feel that I am right in pointing out that he has made no contributions, which is something townies don't do. Now fuba, don't call the kettle black. Your vote didn't even come with any explanation whatsoever you just jumped on the bandwagon. Then when mderg questions you on your vote, you then come up with an explanation on why you changed from not lynching him to voting him. You hint at why you think he is guilty later on, without explicitly saying that *I think you are guilty because you are lying* or something like that. Why so non-committal? sqrtofneg1 has a good point here, you haven't contributed all that much to town except for making non-committal statements about jabberwockzerg. I don't think your 'lol' and then your one line answer to his accusation is anywhere near enough. Please respond to sqrtofneg1's accusations properly. In particular, show comprehensively what you have contributed to town as a townie, as I don't see much either. The reason you gave was a semantics argument, when there were actual legit reasons to vote him. I could probably pull up one for every person in the game if I wanted to. He explicitly stated that he was trying to conceal information in order to help himself. How is "caught" a stronger indicator of scum mindset than that? How is "a stone fell on me" the last straw, when he explicitly stated that he was misleading town for his own ends? I said you weren't reading the cases, which was a fact. It had been made clear that jabber was scum last game, so at the very least he wasn't "just plain guessing" about who was mafia. I'd have to reread my own filter to see why I was even willing to buy that it was a mistake. Like, there's no reason he shouldn't have known Chrom was town. In any case, your point that he could have just been guessing about the scumteam was disproven in the case that you were disagreeing with. Hence how you were disagreeing with the case without reading it. My reason for the vote, when it was given, was legitimate. Your reason, when it was given, was semantic nonsense. And you say I jumped on the bandwagon as if I wasn't one of the people who started it, lol. Like I just sat myself down and twiddled my thumbs. I'd be lying if I said you saw my whole thought process, because my mind goes crazy with possibilities, but you saw just about everything I found relevant about the jabber lynch. And I'm pretty sure I explicitly said that at least one thing I mentioned was scummy. I make sure to do that when I'm reasonably sure of something, because my thoughts are generally wishy-washy since, you know, as town I can't possibly know anything for certain aside from my own alignment. And I wasn't non-committal. After I voted the second time, and gave my reasons for doing so, I was there for good. My first post when coming back was reasserting that he should be lynched. How in the hell is that non-committal? And I concede, I only contributed thoughts primarily about one person. The person I thought was scum. You saw my honest thought process, which is kinda what town wants from its townies. How is that not contributing for town? And who says "contributing for town"? A townie would just say "contributing" because "for town" is implied. Who is trying to "contribute for scum"? (Point from paragraph 1 proven) It's interesting that you were upset that post landed after the deadline. It looks like you had your suspicions that my filter, containing almost exclusively reasons for jabber to be scum, was going to be proven "useless for town" before he even flipped town. However could you have known that? | ||
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fuba
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On May 29 2014 13:24 gobbledydook wrote: So now you dismiss my arguments as semantics and then attempt to frame me using semantics. Way to go with your hypocrisy. I'm upset about your arguments being useless to town not because JWZ turned VT, I'm upset about your arguments because you are pretending to be contributing while offering wishy washy one liner posts that suggest you are not willing to commit anywhere. Guess what mafias do? Act wishy washy, post little, and then look for the nearest bandwagon that makes sense. You're really defensive about what was, in the beginning, essentially a null read. Yes, him saying a rock fell on him is not proper evidence. Him saying that he was intentionally concealing information for his own purposes was proper evidence. If by "framing" you're referring to the second to last paragraph, I certainly hope you know that that was me being a smartass. Normally if someone is legitimately trying to "frame" someone, they don't make it clear in the same paragraph that they're doing so. And it really annoys me on TL that honesty is misconstrued as being wishy-washy so often. I've already explained how I wasn't being wishy-washy in the jabber lynch. After I voted for him the second time, I was on him until the end. On May 29 2014 06:35 fuba wrote: Every vote wasn't on jabber. It's taken the majority of two days to get the vote to reach this point. There's been significant discussion about it, and there are legitimate reasons to consider him scum. I'd also like to point out that jabber hasn't been defending himself or offering an alternative wagon for the last 20 hours or so. This tends to be a scum reaction to a large wagon building against them, rather than a town reaction. If anyone has a specific person they'd like me to comment on, I might have time to squeeze in a filter dive before the deadline. My quick read through the thread didn't leave a whole lot of time for contemplation. I can say that no one struck me as more likely to be scum than jabber. I know a few people asked me specific questions, so I'll try to answer those in the meantime. Just gotta find 'em. Please explain to me how this is wishy washy. Point out one thing in here that says that I'm willing to back off of him. One place where I say that I don't think it's the right lynch. Good luck. As for jumping on the bandwagon (which, again, I've already covered in my previous post), I was one of the first people on the wagon. If I was scum, just sitting on a random bandwagon, then why would I get off of it and get back on it again? That makes no sense. I have a clear thought process outlined in my posts. This isn't just me jumping on whatever wagon suits my purposes, it's me deliberating and deciding that jabber was the best vote. Finally, your posts definitely make me feel like you knew jabber was town before he flipped. You were making this giant post about how I was just jumping on a random bandwagon when YOU WERE VOTING FOR THE BANDWAGON and HE HADN'T FLIPPED YET. You knew before the lynch that he was going to flip green, because you don't get suspicious of someone for "jumping on the bandwagon" of someone you think is scum. That's something you find scummy after the flip, not before. On May 29 2014 15:14 slOosh wrote: Hey fuba, could we get one of these before night ends? Yuppers. Probably. Definitely look at gobble, and let me know what you think. | ||
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fuba
United States663 Posts
Odd that he says he'll be voting jabber in his first post, but doesn't vote him. As for his read on myself in the next few posts, I can understand it, given the TL mindset that uncertainty and the voicing of that uncertainty is way more a scum trait. Palmar's case on him is pretty null for me, since I see the MZ post that started it all to be pretty average. I don't see the scummy mindset that Palmar claims is there. Then he becomes suspicious of sqrt for being inconsistent and such, which I don't see as a strange read from MZ, though I don't think it necessarily makes sqrt scum, rather than a confused/perplexed townie like I was. Overall, pretty null, slight scum lean for saying he's voting jabber but waiting forever to actually do it. Seems like he could have been fishing for a better lynch candidate, or he could have just forgotten XD Refreshed and saw what SlOosh posted. I think the first quote is pretty irrelevant, since the evidence MZ used against sqrt in the second quote falls after the first one (I'm reasonably sure). But the second one definitely feels like something I'd only say as town if I was really sure I felt sqrt was scum, so the third quote is really suspicious. MZ doesn't say, "I'm no longer sure it makes sqrt scum", as if he's reassessed his opinion. He says he's not sure it makes him scum yet, as if he hasn't formed an opinion yet. Very strange considering that he made it clear that he'd given it some thought and already come to a conclusion. | ||
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fuba
United States663 Posts
On May 30 2014 03:01 slOosh wrote: Nothing really eyebrow raising with what he has done, as much as what he hasn't. Given the circumstances of D1, most people fall under this so it's a matter of seeing how they contribute with the D2 lynch. Situation: Jabber is set to be lynched. Gobble votes jabber. I post a pretty null read about gobble. Gobble responds with what I can only assume is a scum read of me, with one of the reasons being that I jumped on the bandwagon of the same person that he is currently voting for. So before the flip, he's using my jabber vote as evidence of me being scum, even though according to his posts and vote he also thinks jabber is scum. Scum Fuba was one of the first people to jump on the easy scum jabber wagon. In what world does this make sense? A world in which gobble already knows that jabber is town. (Side note: I've been thinking that I was second or third on the jabber wagon, rather than 4th. Anything I've said about "starting the wagon" is redacted XD I still feel that my point regarding gobble holds) | ||
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fuba
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Basically, gobble was claiming that I'm scummy for jumping on a wagon that he himself thought was going to lynch scum. This makes no sense unless he actually knows that jabber is town, and is letting that knowledge color his fake read of me. He essentially said, "You're scummy for jumping on this mislynch wagon." This only works if he already knows it's a mislynch. | ||
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United States663 Posts
On May 30 2014 10:24 gobbledydook wrote: wtf fuba stop misquoting my words I never said you were scum for bandwagoning a mislynch I said you were scum because of the way you backed the lynch. Pretty much the only substantial posts you have were against me and that is because I questioned you directly. And I don't think you have answered my question about your stance on sqrtofneg unless I missed it? I haven't misquoted you, but that's beside the point. How did I back the lynch? And how is a person's reasoning regarding the lynch candidate insubstantial? Like, I'm aware I didn't comment on many other people. I find that irrelevant because you have all of my thoughts on the lynch. It's all incredibly straightforward. All very transparent. I'll have more to say when I get home and can look at filters. I'll get tp your question too, which I apparently missed. | ||
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1) I think he is scum. He twists my words to make me look bad. He ignores my question and attacks me instead. If he were town I think he would respond to my questions more directly and cut the misrepresentation. I ignored no questions, as you haven't asked me a question. you made a demand that I do something that I've already done repeatedly. You've actually ignored my questions. Repeatedly. I've also not twisted your words. I've looked at your words in context, and explained what they meant even if you didn't explicitly say it, as I saw them at the time. That is my means of scumhunting, a thing that only townies do. I'd like an answer to my questions now. | ||
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Now fuba, don't call the kettle black. Your vote didn't even come with any explanation whatsoever you just jumped on the bandwagon. Then when mderg questions you on your vote, you then come up with an explanation on why you changed from not lynching him to voting him. You hint at why you think he is guilty later on, without explicitly saying that *I think you are guilty because you are lying* or something like that. Why so non-committal? sqrtofneg1 has a good point here, you haven't contributed all that much to town except for making non-committal statements about jabberwockzerg. I don't think your 'lol' and then your one line answer to his accusation is anywhere near enough. This is your "case" against me. First, I didn't just "jump on the bandwagon". I was on the wagon already for the reasons I felt were clear from bunnies' filter, got off the bandwagon for reasons cited, and got back on. You imply that my vote came out of absolutely nowhere, when I'd been thinking about jabber since I first voted. Yes, my second vote didn't come with an explanation. I gave an explanation as soon as I was asked for it. A reason to find me scummy is for my reason itself to be scummy, not that I didn't immediately provide a reason along with my vote. That's done by town in every game I've ever played. On May 28 2014 01:33 fuba wrote: My position was that since it made no sense to lie as either alignment, I felt it was more likely a mistake. And I felt that this mistake was more likely to come from town rather than scum. His defense, however, is that he was actually hiding information and encouraging a possibility that he knew for a fact was incorrect. That makes it scummy. This quote explicitly states, "I think you are guilty because you are lying". I do, however, see now how you could confuse my uncertainty with the situation as someone trying to distance himself from a mislynch. I guess I wasn't really as sure as I believed myself to be, looking back. On May 29 2014 06:35 fuba wrote: Every vote wasn't on jabber. It's taken the majority of two days to get the vote to reach this point. There's been significant discussion about it, and there are legitimate reasons to consider him scum. I'd also like to point out that jabber hasn't been defending himself or offering an alternative wagon for the last 20 hours or so. This tends to be a scum reaction to a large wagon building against them, rather than a town reaction. If anyone has a specific person they'd like me to comment on, I might have time to squeeze in a filter dive before the deadline. My quick read through the thread didn't leave a whole lot of time for contemplation. I can say that no one struck me as more likely to be scum than jabber. I know a few people asked me specific questions, so I'll try to answer those in the meantime. Just gotta find 'em. This is the quote that I believed made it clear that I was staying on jabber, and wanted others to do the same. Maybe it came too late to really mean anything to the rest of you. I could see that being the case now. Anyway, I'm done defending myself because it's senseless, and I'm coming around to realizing why people would see my play as scummy. Just gonna come back tomorrow and reevaluate my read of gobble, then try to form reads on others without obsessing for hours XD | ||
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His reason for unvoting jabber and voting palmar was that lynches like that end up being wrong. It turns out that he was right, but isn't that a really, really strange reason to unvote someone when you have legitimate reasons to believe he's scum in front of you? Then he swaps back to jabber in order to get more information, even though he thinks palmar is scummier. He then unvotes jabber because of his defense. Not the content of his defense, because that was scummy. He basically unvoted because jabber gave A reason. It wasn't a "too scummy to be scum" argument, it was just - he gave a reason, I think he's town. Then while interacting with Chrom, he says that he doesn't think jabber is town (except he actually did explicitly say "I think he's town now."), but he thinks there's a possibility that jabber is town. This is a really strange thing to say as town because unless someone is somehow modconfirmed scum, there is always the possibility that they're town. That's a given, it's understood by everyone. But he reiterates the fact that he thinks jabber is scummy, but might be town, but might also be scum, about 3-4 times. There's also the fact that he says he wants to lynch jabber for the information earlier on in the day, and later says that he gained no information from the lynch. Clearly his reason for voting jabber at that time was bs, because if you've noticed something that will give you information based on jabber's flip, that thing doesn't just disappear. Then there's his read of me. He suggests me as a possible scum wagon rivaling that of jabber. Seems to indicate that he's really sure of it. But when jabber flips town, which I would have expected to increase his scumread on me, he doesn't mention me at all. Nothing whatsoever until: On May 30 2014 02:31 sqrtofneg1 wrote: The gobble and fuba interaction really, really looks like town interacting with town. This isn't something you say about your strong scumread. However: On May 30 2014 09:10 sqrtofneg1 wrote: Okay guys, I g2g, won't be back until tomorrow. If I die: You need to keep an eye on palmar, he needs to do more. I like fuba, mderg, and amiko. I'm back on his town list. On the same level as mderg and amiko, who I feel is almost positively town. I went from one of his top scumreads to one of his towniest reads, after the jabber lynch revealed that whatever small contributions I had were in favor of what turned out to be a mislynch. And even if I'm reading too much into me being on this list with amiko, he still considers me town. I don't see why this would be his reaction to the D1 lynch. But the next day: On May 31 2014 00:41 sqrtofneg1 wrote: Okay, town totem so far: Me Amiko Bunnies mderg Haru gobble Palmar fuba MZ sloosh And slam isn't on there cause I literally have no idea. Townies: Amiko is making cases, and he's doing work. Town Bunnies was talking a lot D1, not as much since, but still decent enough to townread. Mderg is town. Haru is probably town. Fencies: Gobble null read Palmar - he picked it up now, I don't wanna lynch him cause he's actually asking questions and being useful. Mafia: Fuba MZ Sloosh Suddenly I'm back on the scumlist. These are the only mentions of me after his case. This is more than just changing his mind, this is two unexplained and absolute reversals of his read - after an event that should have straight-up solidified his scumread of me if it was legitimate. And finally there's the little things, like the fact that he started the game talking about himself being mafia, and that he seemed concerned about having said "I've rolled mafia twice" instead of "I've never rolled mafia except twice", when it would have been clear what he meant without the correction. And pointing out someone who might be blue even though there's no reason for town to do so. I'm actually getting too tired to keep my eyes open at this point, so I'll leave it at this for now. I'll take a closer look at slOosh and MZ tomorrow, and see if I think either one is scummier than sqrt. I've read the cases, but haven't filtered them too well. In case it wasn't clear in my last post, I'm really unsure about gobble at this point. He did ignore my questions, he does feel like he's not reading everything I'm writing, and it feels like he's simply refusing to believe I could possibly be town. Could be stubborn, could be scum. I don't know anymore, and it seems like it's kinda off the table for the moment. Even if he is scum, there's two others out there so I'm looking for them for now. ##Vote: sqrtofneg1 | ||
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Something that's bugging me about this lynch is that if slOosh and MZ are generally considered to be scummy in similar ways, then scum could vote for either of them for generally the same reasons. So if they're not both scum, then it's far more likely that today will be a mislynch. SlOosh's last post made me feel like he's town, because he gave his reads instead of just ditching the thread when he's pretty definitely getting lynched. It could be a scum ploy, but his comments about Amiko make me really uneasy about lynching him. He appears to be looking at his own lynch from a townie's eyes. He sees that there are two similar wagons and the driving force behind one being stronger than the other is Amiko. He warns us against trusting anything Amiko says about non-MZ lynches D3 because if SlOosh is town then he knows Amiko's actions have brought scum within one mislynch of winning. That last post from SlOosh is possibly one of the towniest things in the thread, imo, because I find that mentality to be something that's pretty difficult to fake. He doesn't just say "don't trust Amiko", as I believe scum would do, but he took it a step farther and said not to trust him if he tries to push anything other than MZ D3. That is what I find so townie about this post. If I have to vote for one or the other, at the moment, I'd ##Vote: Meapak_Ziphh It bugs me that Palmar hasn't returned to the thread before this lynch, since he's on the MZ wagon but said he's be up for a SlOosh lynch. Dunno if I find him scummy for it, but given my current view of this as a scum-controlled lynch, his absence is allowing what I believe is going to be a mislynch to happen over his top scumread. | ||
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The "nature of the lynch" is that it came down to two players who are considered suspicious for very similar things, and the fact that SlOosh is the wagon we landed on makes me think it's what scum would prefer. | ||
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fuba
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Hm, I guess it almost is a "too easy" argument, but I think the point still stands. And yes, I read people as town based on single posts all the time. If the rest of their filter is pretty "meh" to me, Seeing what I feel is a clear town mindset pretty much makes them town unless I have to completely reevaluate my reads and start from the beginning. | ||
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On June 01 2014 09:34 sqrtofneg1 wrote: Both MZ and sloosh are the same level of scummyness in my eyes. I went for the non majority. This is the kind of thing that makes me say that it's a scum controlled lynch. It seems as though most people feel similarly to sqrt here, so their votes are more free-flowing. I think Amiko is town, but that doesn't mean that he is infallible, and in this case I think he's wrong about SlOosh. However, his pushing for SlOosh is all scum needed to squeeze onto that wagon rather than MZ's. Looking at SlOosh's last post again, even the "Watch out for busses tomorrow" bit seems like a superfluous statement that wouldn't come from scum. | ||
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Well, at least I wasn't completely off. I was right about gobble earlier XD | ||
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On June 01 2014 10:21 HaruRH wrote: I was about to give you a 50% scum rating too amiko. Your last push for sloosh was VERY scummy. Luckily sloosh was scum. How was it scummy? I felt like he was purely concerned that his work for the entire day was going to be ruined by some guy coming in at the last minute and giving scum the opportunity they needed. I mean, I didn't see it that way, but I saw him as seeing it that way. | ||
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Why put yourself as below Amiko on your totem? XD In honour of our glorious town leader? ^^ | ||
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Was hoping to see no actual interaction with slOosh, which would somewhat imply that he didn't interact with his scumbuddies at all. However, he questioned sloosh about MZ, so we know there's the possibility of him interacting with his other buddy. Though I think palmar is probably capable of leading this kind of inter-scum conversation as scum, his interaction with gobble early in the game makes me feel like he's probably town. Gobble's largest post is one entirely dedicated to defending MZ. The only thing that comes close is his attack on me, and that's probably 1/3 as large. Gobble clearly had a very strong reason to defend MZ if he put more effort into it than mislynching me and defending himself. Possibilities include that he was hard-defending his scumbuddy, or that he was trying to get towncred for defending MZ after MZ gets mislynched. Not really sure which. I think that's about all I can pull out of his filter without reading the entire thread again to put everything in context. Thoughts on slOosh's filter: Things that really stood out to me were: him pushing for an MZ lynch, his attempts to locate contradictions in play, and his posts regarding sqrt. Starting with the MZ lynch, I'd have to check the context of it, but I felt that he gave legitimate reasons for MZ being scum. But since SlOosh was scum, that makes me think MZ might not be the best lynch choice D3. I think rereading the thread to put everything in context would help me sort out my thoughts on this further. He seemed to focus a lot on finding surface-level contradictions and then casting suspicions on those people. He did it with me twice, he did it with Slam, and much of his case on MZ is that same thing. Sqrt is where this assessment of contradictions seems to break down. While pushing for an MZ lynch because of his changing read on sqrt, he considers sqrt's own fluctuating read on me (as well as possibly others) to be indication of town. It's hard to tell, however, if at this point he's just outright screwing with us because he knows he's going to be lynched, or if he's still really trying to play the game. Again, a read through the entire game (or at least D2) would probably give a better idea of which of these is more likely. Thoughts about the hours leading up to the lynch: MZ's late vote on sloosh reminded me of his late vote on jabber D1. He's been claiming he'll vote someone early in the day, but doesn't vote them until much later. Palmar seemed to come back pretty quickly after I mentioned that he was gone for a long time. He was also pretty emphatic about us switching over to MZ from slOosh. This made me initially suspicious, but he was always more heavily in favor of MZ anyway. Would need to look at this more closely to be sure how I feel about it. Addition: also, he townread me. I always feel uncomfortable when people townread me XD Additional addition: Didn't really like the "shit way of playing" comment when he originally said it, and after the lynch I don't feel much better about it. I'm running out of time gahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Wanted to analyze the votes and such, but that'll have to wait for D3 (I doubt I'm the shot of choice for scum XD). Last note is that I found it really, really weird that people were scumreading Amiko during the sloosh lynch. At the same time, I'm not sure it really makes sense for scum to form a fake scumread on the person who, to them, is trying their best to ensure a scum lynch. Just saw MZ's last post. And I realized I've given absolutely no thought to alakaslam whatsoever. Literally the entire game. Makes me nervous. K, time's up. See you in the morning~ | ||
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I get the strong feeling there's a doctor. | ||
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Bleh, I had this whole thing written up but I refreshed the page and it got erased. Was basically just apologizing for being MIA and saying that MZ seemed like a pretty set lynch, so time felt better spent on projects (and reading the new Dresden Files book, and trying out Heroes of the Storm, but mostly the final projects). | ||
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Yeah! One of my friends is so upset with me, lol | ||
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On June 05 2014 02:04 HaruRH wrote: Since Bh just stated no no-lynches, we can only go with: 5v1 -> role claims 3v1 -> lylo I doubt we have a medic (or we have one which fails every night). Cop seems improbable since a red would have been found out by now, given that everyone wanted to lynch sloosh/gobble/MZ. We have to have two of cop/medic/watcher. I'm leaning towards there not being a cop, but I wouldn't rule it out just yet. And if there's a medic/watcher or both, I'd bet they're keeping an eye on Amiko, which is why scum keep getting kills off. I'm not suggesting they stop (medic/watcher), just explaining what I'm seeing. About to read through your thoughts again, will be back with thoughts of my own ^^ | ||
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K, srsly now. Responding to haru XD | ||
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On June 05 2014 02:22 sqrtofneg1 wrote: Medic can't save same person twice in a row. Did BH clarify that somewhere? I don't see it in the OP. | ||
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I don't see any reason to take much of what SlOosh said in that last post seriously anymore. He's confirmed scum, so whatever he said at that point was meant to drag us into wifom. So we shouldn't let it, and ignore most of it, as I'm trying to do with his comments about sqrt. Analysis >>> scum wifom. As for me sheeping the MZ lynch, I should clarify I guess. MZ had been a prime lynch target for the better part of 2 days at that point. There was no way anyone I could suggest was being lynched over MZ even if I thought there was a better lynch. So I saw no point in analyzing anything that might prove pointless, rather than working on my two final projects that are due next week. Technically I wasn't even being lazy, I was just prioritizing my time. I just checked out the votes from the SlOosh lynch again, and I feel like there's a really strong chance that all scum were on the MZ wagon D2, or the last one could have switched over and gotten a mislynch. Amiko was right in that since I was wrong, I was giving scum the chance to switch over to MZ easily. The fact that they didn't makes me feel that one of Palmar/sqrt/Haru is scum. I've already explained why I don't think sqrt and Haru are scum, so that leaves me with Palmar for tomorrow's lynch. | ||
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I can agree with the first half of the lynch list XD | ||
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Mderg disagrees with the jabber lynch in his first post. He says I'm his top scumread based on me not immediately giving a reason for my vote, but doesn't respond in any way to my actual reasoning. This is the EXACT SAME THING that gobble did all game. Mderg really, really hard defends jabber, but despite a scumread on me for my super scummy vote w/o explanation, he doesn't place a vote. He doesn't try to get people off of jabber, he just tries to show that he's defending a townie. Chrom mentions this here: On May 29 2014 06:12 mderg wrote: The thing is that it´s difficult to make cases, if everyone does the same. It´s not like I have completely ignored others but sadly there´s limited information to go on. Chrom is incredibly critical of mderg's play D1, and he ends up dead D2. D2 he votes MZ, disappears for 23 hours, then switches to SlOosh. At the point he switches to SlOosh, the impetus is pretty strong behind that wagon. There's pretty much no way scum can lynch MZ unless all three of them jump onto him, something that scum rarely like to do. He also really firmly agrees with what Amiko says, so it could very easily be a bus. This firm agreement also makes it really difficult to back off of, especially if he tries to do it to mislynch MZ and we later find that SlOosh is scum. Mderg couldn't have switched his vote without looking really, really suspicious. He's then roleblocked N2, which made him look even more townie after the lynch. Could be real, but could also be solidifying him as town after a successful bus. The SlOosh lynch and the roleblock made me kinda ignore mderg as a suspect, but after filtering him he could certainly be the last scum. I'll look at palmar after class, but I think the thing I found scummiest about him was how quickly he appeared when I questioned the SlOosh lynch. Maybe he's town and he's being honest about not being able to play a lot on the weekend, maybe he's scum and he saw an opportunity to throw the thread into chaos D3 and secure a mislynch. That's really the only thing about that situation that I found really scummy about him though, since he'd been on MZ forever and clearly wanted MZ lynched over sloosh the entire time. Class time, be back later~ | ||
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On June 06 2014 02:02 sqrtofneg1 wrote: Here's the thing. It's either you or fuba. I'm lynching both you and fuba. The only question remaining is who to lynch first. I believe that you're a more competent player, and that if you were mafia, it'd be easier for you rather than fuba to wiggle your way out of a lynch. So you're my target today. If you're not mafia, it's fuba. I agree that we lynch palmar over me, but if you disregard mderg when actual thread events explain how he could easily be scum, then you're throwing the game away. - He hard-hard-hard defends jabber while not actually searching for scum. - Chrom points this out and he's dead the next day - he votes MZ early on D2, comes back about a day later (when the sloosh wagon appears nigh-untouchable) and jumps on strong - At that point, if he's bussing his teammate, he can't possibly switch wagons or it'll look really suspicious for him - He is "roleblocked", making him look even more townie after the lynch - He spends the rest of the game basically agreeing with Amiko I'm not so much doing this to accuse mderg as to make everyone see that it's absolutely possible for him to be scum. Don't ignore him just because he voted SlOosh. If he's scum, a sloosh lynch seemed unavoidable unless some gullible townie waltzed in and convinced half the town to switch to MZ. By the time that happened, he had committed to the bus. He could not have switched back without looking very suspicious. The only people who should actually be acting like this is a solved game are me, palmar, and mderg, because we're the only ones who actually know where the scum is, 100%. Oh, and Haru's "case" on me has been responded to, and the response has been ignored. It isn't strong. It's based on the dying words of confirmed scum. There's no legitimacy to that argument whatsoever. I'll be around, but I dunno if I'll respond to a whole lot. I can't keep up with post speeds like Amiko and Palmar have been churning out, and the most anything I've posted this game has accomplished is almost diverting a lynch from scum to town, so I don't see anything I have to say actually changing anyone's opinion of my play. I'm certain the scum is between palmar and mderg, but am really uncertain which one it actually is. To me, it doesn't matter, because there are two days to lynch scum. In my own defense: I'll suggest you look at my interactions with gobble and try to explain it as two scum interacting. Unfortunately, at the time, the only person I asked for a response directly was SlOosh, so I was discouraged from a scum lynch by scum. (this is the kind of thing I was referring to when I said I'm not used to my words having this much impact, because a completely legit case against scum was completely ignored by everyone in town) Do you think that was a ploy involving the entire scumteam? ##Unvote ##Vote: mderg Because why not~ | ||
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I know that it's likely that after Palmar, I'm next. And since I know I'm town, that would mean us losing the game (this is in the situation that palmar flips town, otherwise we wouldn't be lynching me at all XD). Preserving myself is a somewhat scummy mindset, as I said when I was voting for jabber, but it's kinda the mindset that all three of us have found ourselves in. Of me, palmar, and mderg, the one who gets the other two lynched wins the game. So while I hope it's Palmar, since that's definitely the easiest hurdle at this point in the game, mderg is the only other option if it's not. And I've been tricked by a scum ploy a few times this game already, so I'd like to be prepared if this is another one. | ||
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I'm not sure there's a way for town to win out of this situation if Palmar isn't scum, tbh XD I feel like if I'm lynched first then Palmar is almost definitely the next lynch, judging from the thread recently. And if Palmar is lynched first then I'm not sure I see people lynching mderg over me, when even I've admitted that it makes more sense that he was actually roleblocked than scum is faking the roleblock. Because my game feels pretty much over either way, I'll just sheep Amiko. ##Vote: Palmar Because why not~ | ||
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On June 06 2014 12:57 Amiko wrote: So for fuba/palmar/mderg, regardless of their alignment these players should understand that their team will 100% win if the other two players are lynched. So, for Palmar I think we talked through your motivations and I wasn’t really convinced, but maybe if you raise some points on mderg and fuba it’ll change my mind. Okay, so let's go through fuba's points on mderg- Fuba raises the point that mderg doesn’t actively push people on d1 and really just hard-defends jabber – when Chrom raises this point, Chrom dies the next day I think there is some legitimacy to the first part of this point, though mderg does raise some concerns on M_Z by the end of the day. But, rereading Chrom’s post, I feel that he is indicating more of a town-lean on mderg so I’m not sure the second part of the point pans out. Chrom’s post:+ Show Spoiler + On May 30 2014 06:35 Chromatically wrote: mderg just feels really genuine to me. I think it would be easy for scum to randomly throw out a scumread to push when I started pressuring him, but mderg didn't back down, which is a much townier position. Scum would be more aware of how strange it looks that they're not pushing a read and would invent one to push. Genuine doesn't necessarily mean town though (I'm very wary of calling mderg town for that one post Palmar liked, I think that could easily come from scum). But, I think his posts show a townie thought process about honestly wanting to defend jabber. 2) Regarding mderg’s move to slOosh from M_Z To me, I think mderg is town not only because his vote ended the day on slOosh (though that is a good sign) but also because of the timing of his switch. For context of when mderg switches to slOosh, check this - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=38#741 – Koshi did a vote count and mderg is the next post. So, when mderg switches, the votes are like this: What is significant to me about this vote count is the split: sloosh at 4, M_Z at 3. I feel like at this point, the votes were split such that I don’t feel mderg would feel he has to vote for a mafia teammate. I think he could have stayed on M_Z without much suspicion if he really wanted to, or could have even waited until a few more people voted to decide whether to change his mind. I just feel like the changed vote on mderg feels really inconsistent with scum play due to its timing, as well as its result. (Still going through thread) 1) Fair enough. I was going off of mderg's filter, where chrom seemed really suspicious of him. Looking at the timestamps, chrom posted his updated reads 4 hours before the N1 deadline, so his previous suspicions might have still been on scum's mind when they sent in the kill. Regardless, my point may be moot on this count simply because it looks like chrom's reads list has significant suspicion of both sloosh and gobble, and he appeared pretty townie D1, so his death didn't need to relate to mderg at all. A more thorough filter dive would be needed to tell if chrom's suspicions of sloosh and gobble were as obvious prior to his reads list, but I don't have the time at the moment :S In any case, I'd like to draw attention to the fact that mderg asks me for my thoughts on gobble and MZ at some point D1. I respond with my thoughts on gobble (my MZ thoughts to come later, as I had limited time), to which he responds that he disagrees with anything I say that might make gobble scum. He then writes a case on MZ being scum. SlOosh also asks me for my MZ read at some point. It makes me feel like scum wanted me to set up a case on MZ for them to sheep onto. To simplify: Mderg asks me for my thoughts on scum and town, I give my thoughts on scum, he says those thoughts don't indicate scum, he makes a case on town. It seems odd to ask for my thoughts on gobble for no reason, only to make a case on MZ. It's a weird progression, particularly with sloosh also wanting my input on MZ. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, idunno. 2) Not entirely accurate. I'd have to check bunnies' filter again, but it felt like her vote was promised to sloosh, since she said she had promised a case on him, but ran out of time. And MZ was clearly going to vote for sloosh. Gobble's vote, presumably, would have been going to MZ. All of the votes were already dedicated to someone, and it would have left: Meapak_Ziphh (4) - slOosh(6) – Amiko, Alakaslam, HaruRH, sqrtofneg1, 27ninjabunnies, Meapak_Ziphh Sqrtofneg1(1) - fuba Not voting (0) : – none At this point, there's no winning for scum. While the votes aren't placed, we can generally guess where they're going to fall. And scum would have been watching this carefully the entire time. Even removing bunnies' vote, in case I'm incorrect, and adding my vote if I went for MZ instead, sloosh is still getting lynched over MZ, and that's with the entire scumteam on that wagon. This is actually the perfect time for him to switch over, because it still looks like the lynch is up in the air, when it's pretty much decided already. They don't want the entire scumteam on one wagon, it gains towncred to switch wagons "early", and the sloosh lynch looks inevitable. Scum have more information, and this looks like a situation where they used it pretty well to their advantage. Huh, palmar's kinda in the same boat as mderg in this situation, except he doesn't switch. My instinct tells me this is evidence of palmar being more likely town than mderg. Dunno though, would have to give that a bit more thought than I have time for atm. I think there are more questions for me, but I just realized that my appointment is in 3 minutes, so I've really gotta go. I'll be back in an hour-ish. | ||
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On June 06 2014 13:01 Amiko wrote: @fuba: Can you explain to me why you raised your case on sqrt when you did? I think I raised the point earlier- To me, the tone of your post seemed like you were just interjecting in a conversation you were involved in (you said something like "I'm glad you mentioned sqrt"). But, if you were following the conversation, I would have expected you to be caught up on the slOosh / M_Z lynches and weigh in on the bandwagons. It seemed to me like that post just didn't belong at that time. There's other stuff on D2 I'll try to bring up as I continue through thread. I can't tell you exactly why, because I'm not 100% sure. It's true that the sqrt post didn't really belong at that time. Best explanation is that when I started writing it, I intended to not take hours to actually write it, but despite my best efforts I still take an eternity to write anything I feel is worthwhile. It was something that occurred to me as I was reading the thread, and wanted to mention it before I forgot. However, my thoughts got away from me, and it ended up taking some ridiculous amount of time to write, and ended up being all I did that night. I feel like the fact that his reads were jumping around like crazy reminded me of how it was pointed out that MZ's reads re: sqrt himself were jumping around like crazy, then I got sidetracked into a semi-case on sqrt. I can't actually remember what my point from that train of thought was, but I don't think it even ended up in the original post. Basically, I sidetracked myself, lol I think Palmar asked me why I dropped my case against gobble. I basically explained that already, but I read through my filter, and saw that some of the things that gobble was saying about me were true. From my own readthrough of my own filter, I didn't seem all that confident in the jabber lynch. That removed part of my problem with him - that he was misrepresenting me. Additionally, I asked someone what they thought of what I'd said about gobble. This is actually more than I usually do XD Unfortunately, the person I asked was SlOosh, who further discouraged me from my case. Since I had no one agreeing with me, and I had been operating from misinformation, I backed off. I did make it clear that I still found things he was doing to be scummy. If the rest of town doesn't feel like looking into it, there's nothing more I can do. | ||
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On June 07 2014 04:47 Palmar wrote: @fuba if you're town you better put at least the amount of effort I've put in today tomorrow. Seriously, if you die with less than at least 60 in the final day and you flip town, I'm going to be really mad at you. I'm not capable of posting that much. Just sayin'. | ||
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On June 07 2014 08:41 Amiko wrote: Going through thread, was out longer than I expected. @Fuba: On mderg with gobble & M_Z I actually liked this point. I can’t put too much stock in it (if mderg is scum, Palmar is town and he was also pushing for M_Z around the same time) but it was something on mderg I hadn’t looked at. On mderg vote timing I think your point isn’t bad, but I do think scum could believe that sqrt would change his vote. At least, when talk started up about vote changing I wasn’t particularly surprised to see sqrt move his vote given how he had reacted to the votes the prior day. Can you explain what you mean by this a little more? Trainpost. Essentially, I meant that if its the ideal time to start bussing, then the fact that he didn't should indicate towniness. Of course, this assumes he was around, that the situation was as I say it was, and that he agreed to switch. | ||
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Thought it might possibly be helpful to have a look at my scum games. Typically they stress me out to no end, because I have intense trouble actually lying in a game of mafia. I'm pretty sure there are only two, unless you add in the one I had to withdraw from (again, they stress me the hell out XD). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/418641-basterd-mini-mafia?user=mkfuba07&view=all http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/432880-white-flag-mafia?user=mkfuba07 I'm terrible at describing my self-meta, but I'll spell out things that I think are relevant. In both games, I was essentially caught D1. I wormed my way into a myslynch on VA in Basterd because he wasn't there to defend himself, rofl. I'm apparently pretty obvious as mafia, so I actually found it funny when Palmar said I played a pretty clean scum game. I don't play clean scum games. It doesn't happen because I'm relatively incapable of doing so. General defense thoughts: As for me posting cases and not following up on them, I've done that in probably every game I've played. I write my case, I see if anyone agrees. If I don't get a positive response I assume I'm wrong, and I simply move on. I do not push cases, I let the cases push themselves. The exceptions are early game, when I try to be as sure of a lynch as I can be and hope that I've found a scum lynch target, and exceptionally late game, where I can focus my obsessive thoughts on the individual actions of 2-3 players and see whose actions make most sense from a scum perspective. All around, this self-description of my own town play accurately depicts what's gone on this game. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/407704-doctor-who-mafia?user=mkfuba07&page=3 My vote switch to deconduo at the end of Doctor Who mafia is an example of what I did all day yesterday. While I agreed that it was unlikely that scum held their roleblock for towncred, I found reasonable explanations for all of mderg's actions from a scum perspective. Deconduo made little sense based on the setup/generally-understood mechanics of the game, but I convinced everyone to vote him despite a seemingly impossible cop fakeclaim. I'll try one last time to make you see that mderg is scum, and suggest that it's certainly possible that mderg knew he wouldn't be cop checked after D2 because of his apparent quick jump onto the sloosh wagon. Which of us would have considered mderg to be the best target of a cop check that day? No one. Even if he didn't know this, the chances of him guessing who the cop is and roleblocking them was what, 1/8? Weigh that against the towncred gained from being roleblocked after "quickly" jumping on the sloosh wagon. 1/8 (or something) chance to possibly stop the cop from checking him (if he's even a likely cop check target, which he wasn't) compared to nigh-untouchability for the rest of the game. We accepted it because it seemed reasonable, but it also made him appear untouchable. Is that something a non-mderg-including scumteam planned on doing with that roleblock? Like, you're basically saying that I, as the last scum and roleblocker, ensured that I couldn't win the game, when I could have avoided it entirely. People are clearing mderg for something that scum have sole control over - when it is actually stronger indication that scum were trying to make mderg look like he's town. I'm almost afraid to ask this question, but do you think that given my ability to consider situations like I've shown in this game as well as previous games, that after finally succeeding in not being killed D1 as scum, I would throw it away by nearly confirming mderg as town in the eyes of the rest of town? | ||
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On June 08 2014 04:36 Amiko wrote: Hey Fuba- I have other things to bring up, but here's one thing I considered - If you agree with me (that the line of thought I suggested is one that should only come from me or scum) isn't it fairly suspicious that you had that line of thought? No. I brought up the point that if jabber didn't know the scumteam from the first game was posted, then he still knew that his ex-scummates were in the game, and would know that he's lying. You actually got that from me. You then said that you felt that only yourself and scum would think of that, and I disagreed because I am not scum and I thought of that. It's really my only strength in mafia - considering scenarios. I'm not a case-pusher, I'm not a high-poster, I'm not a town leader. Unless I'm really sure about something, I present my ideas and let the thread use them as they will. | ||
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On June 08 2014 04:47 Amiko wrote: @Whoever: I raised some suspicion of Haru on D1 and again later http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=25#499 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=34#666 We now know that Haru is confirmed town. Between mderg and Fuba, do you see either of these players indicating they may want to raise Haru as a mislynch later on in the game? Fuba seems to townread Haru somewhat and doesn't comment on my points on Haru much other than that- + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2014 02:32 fuba wrote: Oh, and I keep bouncing around regarding sqrt. I don't see scum|sqrt preparing to scumread Amiko after the SlOosh lynch, because he would KNOW Amiko is town and KNOW SlOosh is scum. It would be a really weird chain of reasoning to then say that he thought Amiko was scum for pushing the mislynch so hard. Makes me think both Haru and sqrt are town, because I dunno, it's weird that they both agreed on that and came to the conclusion independently when they can't possibly both be scum. At the same time, saying that I seem townie to him (sqrt) for my thought process in a post entirely devoted to calling him scum makes me doubt my assessment of the sloosh situation. Then there's the fact that SlOosh spent the entire game looking for contradictions in peoples' play, and called out MZ, myself, and alakaslam for things he thought were contradictory, but ignored the contradictory statements in sqrt's filter, instead calling him townie for them. However, I'm placing more weight on the former than the latter because I don't want to give slOosh's last post too much sway. K, srsly now. Responding to haru XD On June 05 2014 02:57 fuba wrote: Response to the points brought up by Haru: I don't see any reason to take much of what SlOosh said in that last post seriously anymore. He's confirmed scum, so whatever he said at that point was meant to drag us into wifom. So we shouldn't let it, and ignore most of it, as I'm trying to do with his comments about sqrt. Analysis >>> scum wifom. As for me sheeping the MZ lynch, I should clarify I guess. MZ had been a prime lynch target for the better part of 2 days at that point. There was no way anyone I could suggest was being lynched over MZ even if I thought there was a better lynch. So I saw no point in analyzing anything that might prove pointless, rather than working on my two final projects that are due next week. Technically I wasn't even being lazy, I was just prioritizing my time. I just checked out the votes from the SlOosh lynch again, and I feel like there's a really strong chance that all scum were on the MZ wagon D2, or the last one could have switched over and gotten a mislynch. Amiko was right in that since I was wrong, I was giving scum the chance to switch over to MZ easily. The fact that they didn't makes me feel that one of Palmar/sqrt/Haru is scum. I've already explained why I don't think sqrt and Haru are scum, so that leaves me with Palmar for tomorrow's lynch. mderg does show a little more attention to my points- + Show Spoiler + On May 29 2014 05:29 mderg wrote: Regarding HaruRH: I agree with Amiko that Haru´s play has been strange. The part about the odds is not something I would take seriously. To me it seemed like some kind of joke post. The second point Amiko raises about Haru is definitely strange play. It kinda seemed like throwing a fake lifeline to jabber in order to have some point against him regardless of how jabber continues to play. The third point is something that could go either way. It´s difficult to get a clear read out of setup discussion. So it´s definitely worth it to keep a closer eye on HaruRH. On June 01 2014 18:52 mderg wrote: In general I think scum is either MZ or likely to be found on the MZ wagon. I´m rather confident that it´s one between MZ, Palmar, sqrt, HaruRH. I don´t think it´s fuba, he started that and put himself in the spotlight in a way you probably wouldn´t want to as scum. The voteswitch at the end was strange because I don´t think it was going too easily. I mean the case was solid and based on sloosh´s whole game, and there were still like 3 people voting MZ. On June 04 2014 22:18 mderg wrote: HaruRH was quite active the last few days and seems to be trying to solve the game. His plan of lynching sloosh´s scumlist is based is strange, though. It has solid reasoning behind it but it hugely based on assumptions about sloosh´s intentions. Coincidentally I don´t think HaruRH was on that list. I´m still leaning town on him but this is definitely in the back of my mind. Looking at these two, it's tough to make a good call. On the one hand, mderg picks up on my points a little more, which initially would suggest to me that he might be looking at Haru as a potential mislynch. However, fuba basically ignores the points, so it's hard to say that's really towny. I think looking at the rest of the game, I like mderg's posts on Haru. He does seem to keep his eye on Haru through the game, and eventually seems to lean town on Haru despite the fact that I haven't really relented at that time. In other words, I feel that after M_Z dies, Haru should have been seen as a good mislynch candiate, but that's about when mderg is giving him a townread. So, although he gave the case more attention, it doesn't strike me as the way scum would approach Haru. Thoughts anyone? I found Haru to basically be town since he and sqrt both said that they thought you were scum during the sloosh lynch. It would have been such an incredibly odd move for scum (I found it odd for anyone, but particularly because scum at the time would have known that you were pushing a scum lynch), and since two of them had the same exact thought I felt it could have only come from town. | ||
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fuba
United States663 Posts
On June 08 2014 05:16 Amiko wrote: @Fuba re: N2 Roleblock I think the thing is, from my point of view mderg looked was relatively towny for being on the right wagon. I don't feel like the roleblock claim was really necessary for him to get 'town cred' (and it also seems like something scum wouldn't feel the need to do since no one was giving Slam townreads based on his roleblock claim, except maybe M_Z on the following day) and although it's something that helps his case, I feel like even without it he would be a fair pick for town. If anything, I might have expected someone on the M_Z wagon to claim roleblock for town cred because they needed it more. ...Really, I was very surprised I wasn't roleblocked n2, that was the biggest reason I thought there must be a watcher in the game. As an aside, I actually thought D2 that Palmar could have been softing watcher it with his references to a 'slam dunk' (which suggested to me that perhaps he was watcher, had watched Alakaslam, and had caught M_Z roleblocking), but it became clear that wasn't the case or he would have outed the check N2 for the sure win. I can't remember a single time that slam was ever actually in danger of being lynched despite not being able to remember a single contribution he made to the game. I contributed more than him and I've been called out multiple times for not contributing. The only thing that explains it for me is the roleblock. And yes, mderg looked towny. That is *exactly* the reason he did it. All of it. He switched to sloosh at a time where, I repeat, sloosh was GUARANTEED to be lynched. There was a very, very low probability that he could get out of it. Every vote was accounted for, even if they weren't placed. You can't look at it from the perspective of a townie - someone who's trying to find the right lynch. Look at it from the perspective of a scummer - someone who is trying to control the lynch for their own ends. They had no control of it anymore at that point. And keeping the entire scumteam on the town wagon would have been an absolutely terrible play. They needed someone off of MZ, and they couldn't avoid not lynching sloosh. Sloosh can't vote for himself, gobble has disappeared from the thread, and that would just leave mderg. Yes, his switch seemed strong, because he reiterated points that you brought up and he was actually lynching someone he knew for a fact to be scum. His switch was the best possible scum play at that point in the game. Compare that to what I did, which did absolutely nothing but make me look suspicious. What was my plan with that as scum? It looks like two of my scummates are going to be lynched/modkilled, so I go balls to the wall to save one of them when I know the alternate wagon I'm pushing is a mislynch? My actions D2 did me no favors whatsoever. | ||
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fuba
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On June 08 2014 05:04 Amiko wrote: One point I raised during the end of D2 was that it was strange how fuba was concerned M_Z's lynch was going too easily, but was not concerned about the same thing on jabber. Here's the exchange between me and fuba: + Show Spoiler + On June 01 2014 09:10 Amiko wrote: Okay here's another good point @sqrt: Yesterday fuba was content to go with a bandwagon on jabber. He kept his vote on jabber. Today he is afraid of a bandwagon that is going too easily. Yesterday's wagon went more easily. Today he is concerned. WAT On June 01 2014 09:11 fuba wrote: This isn't a "too easy" argument from me. It's the argument that between two players that are relatively identical according to the reads of most players in the thread, this is the wagon that at least two scum are on. This lynch feels more uncertain than yesterday's, and more dangerous. Hm, I guess it almost is a "too easy" argument, but I think the point still stands. And yes, I read people as town based on single posts all the time. If the rest of their filter is pretty "meh" to me, Seeing what I feel is a clear town mindset pretty much makes them town unless I have to completely reevaluate my reads and start from the beginning. I think there's a secondary point worth looking at regarding Fuba's play d2. Look at the beginning of his case on sqrt: + Show Spoiler + On May 31 2014 15:45 fuba wrote: I'm glad you mentioned sqrt, because he's someone who's stuck out to me. His reason for unvoting jabber and voting palmar was that lynches like that end up being wrong. It turns out that he was right, but isn't that a really, really strange reason to unvote someone when you have legitimate reasons to believe he's scum in front of you? Then he swaps back to jabber in order to get more information, even though he thinks palmar is scummier. He then unvotes jabber because of his defense. Not the content of his defense, because that was scummy. He basically unvoted because jabber gave A reason. It wasn't a "too scummy to be scum" argument, it was just - he gave a reason, I think he's town. Then while interacting with Chrom, he says that he doesn't think jabber is town (except he actually did explicitly say "I think he's town now."), but he thinks there's a possibility that jabber is town. This is a really strange thing to say as town because unless someone is somehow modconfirmed scum, there is always the possibility that they're town. That's a given, it's understood by everyone. But he reiterates the fact that he thinks jabber is scummy, but might be town, but might also be scum, about 3-4 times. (cut) Fuba is pointing to sqrt's willingness to vote and unvote on jabber D1 as scummy. He points out that this is suspicious partly because sqrt is still willing to say that jabber may be mafia. But, consider fuba's play d2, specifically when he is moving from sqrt to M_Z: + Show Spoiler + On June 01 2014 08:06 fuba wrote: ##Unvote Something that's bugging me about this lynch is that if slOosh and MZ are generally considered to be scummy in similar ways, then scum could vote for either of them for generally the same reasons. So if they're not both scum, then it's far more likely that today will be a mislynch. SlOosh's last post made me feel like he's town, because he gave his reads instead of just ditching the thread when he's pretty definitely getting lynched. It could be a scum ploy, but his comments about Amiko make me really uneasy about lynching him. He appears to be looking at his own lynch from a townie's eyes. He sees that there are two similar wagons and the driving force behind one being stronger than the other is Amiko. He warns us against trusting anything Amiko says about non-MZ lynches D3 because if SlOosh is town then he knows Amiko's actions have brought scum within one mislynch of winning. That last post from SlOosh is possibly one of the towniest things in the thread, imo, because I find that mentality to be something that's pretty difficult to fake. He doesn't just say "don't trust Amiko", as I believe scum would do, but he took it a step farther and said not to trust him if he tries to push anything other than MZ D3. That is what I find so townie about this post. If I have to vote for one or the other, at the moment, I'd ##Vote: Meapak_Ziphh It bugs me that Palmar hasn't returned to the thread before this lynch, since he's on the MZ wagon but said he's be up for a SlOosh lynch. Dunno if I find him scummy for it, but given my current view of this as a scum-controlled lynch, his absence is allowing what I believe is going to be a mislynch to happen over his top scumread. Here, I think fuba is doing something along the lines of what he has accused sqrt of doing - fuba is basically using the idea that the majority vote would lead to a mislynch. There are some differences, to be fair. Fuba says he is townreading slOosh (and Haru and sqrt seem to feel the same way), so it's different from D1 sqrt who still suspected jabber. I think fuba's reasons are still a little different, too - he is saying that the two are scummy for the same reasons. From my point of view, the scummiest things on both players were the same, except applied more to slOosh. If you went with Palmar's argument (M_Z is scum because he called Palmar town after Palmar called M_Z scum), then the scummiest things on the players were different. I still would like you to explain this a little more fuba. My reasoning had very little to do with the actual cases on the players. It was about the nature of the lynch itself. The basic logic behind it was: if everyone says they will vote on one of these two players, and one of those players is scum, then scum's goal is to sway the lynch towards the townie (turns out that they tried to do that but were unable to). This doesn't take into account your force behind the scum lynch, though, which was a pretty big mistake on my part. I basically overestimated the sway that scum had in that situation. | ||
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I guess what I'm ultimately going to suggest is that everyone looks at who did what would be best for them as scum in the situations scum found themselves in. I would say the pivotal point is definitely the sloosh lynch. Which of us came out of that situation looking better? Because scum had a long time to decide how they were going to handle sloosh being lynched. Is the scumplay 1) to bus him once it's inevitable that he's getting lynched or 2) spring a last-minute gambit that probably won't even work but will definitely make them look suspicious when sloosh flips (as he definitely would have even if MZ had been mislynched first). There's being unable to maintain a town guise as scum (this is my typical scumplay), and then there's just doing what's completely ill-advised as scum (which is what I would have done this game). If I'm scum, I've overcome my original scum-downfall only to instead become a complete idiot. | ||
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On June 08 2014 06:10 mderg wrote: I think your actions on day 2 made sense as scum. It was close to switching the lynch over and would have been enough to save sloosh, if gobble was there. In that case it would have worked hugely in your favor. But it didn´t work out for you. I don´t think I would have voted sloosh solely because of Amiko´s case. I still thought that MZ was the better lynch until sloosh put out a defense that contradicted with the one point that I thought could point towards him being town. I don't have to convince you, you already know you're scum. But for everyone else, my play D2 made no sense as scum. Sloosh was inevitably going to be lynched, and by putting myself at the forefront of the switch back to MZ, I'd be really damn suspicious even if I secured a mislynch D2. And since gobble didn't post for that entire day, and he got modkilled for not voting, I'm gonna go ahead and guess that you couldn't get ahold of him to plan a strategy. And even if he was there to switch over, then that would put the entire scumteam on the mislynch wagon. Bad bad bad bad bad plan. | ||
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fuba
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On June 08 2014 06:31 mderg wrote: You don´t have to convince me, I know you´re scum, but that doesn´t mean I can´t tell people why your play made sense as scum. You mean like me putting myself in the spotlight on the jwz lynch? You knew Palmar was also trying to get people´s votes over to MZ, so you knew there might still have been a chance to get the misslynch. You´re making things up about me knowing gobble wouldn´t be there where just gobble voting would have secured the misynch for you. I guess you were planning with gobble´s vote and thus only needed like 2 people to switch their votes. This wasn´t that unrealistic. You can't know something that isn't true  And no, me derailing a scum wagon onto town would have looked much worse than you defending a townie. So you're saying I concocted a plan to force the entire scumteam onto MZ in order to prevent a sloosh lynch that would occur the following day, anyway, and reveal that the switch was clearly scum motivated? And I did so without knowing whether or not gobble would actually be there to support my daring ploy, which makes even the chance of getting a mislynch out of it pretty unlikely? | ||
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On June 08 2014 08:58 Amiko wrote: I'll be here for just a bit and write what I can- @Fuba: Regarding pushing lynches I haven’t read all your games, but I took a look at the two you linked. In Basterd Mini Mafia, it seems like you pushed the WoS case and continued to do so until you died. In White Flag, it looks like you pushed hzflank in two posts. In both games you went idle or died shortly after raising the issue, so it’s not like it’s a long string of posts on the people. But, only looking at the two games you posted, I don’t see support for the idea that you make cases and drop them. Anyway, we are talking meta so I can’t say too much for it either way. On copchecks I don’t disagree that mderg makes an unlikely cop check, but I think the problem is that scum loses ground even if I copcheck a town player. Obviously, it is worse for them if I check a scum player (and it becomes a loss if I catch a mafia with 2 already dead), but I feel like there’s still a strong incentive to try to roleblock the cop. Just as evidence of this, if my n3 check (which was on fuba) had not been roleblocked, we would have won regardless of whether he was mafia or town. Without the roleblock, mafia loses. To me, this is really a razor-thin margin for scum to play with, so it’s hard for me to imagine they give up a roleblock when they are potentially so close to losing. Regarding pushing lynches: If anything, that indicates that I only really push my cases as scum, rofl. Those were my only two scum games. That's not the point I was trying to make with those filters, anyway. If you want to see support for me making cases and dropping them, feel free to look at literally any other game. On copchecks: I can follow your reasoning, but in this case it's leading you to the incorrect answer. On June 08 2014 09:00 Amiko wrote: Inevitability of slOosh lynch I don't agree with Fuba's portrayal of the slOosh lynch as inevitable, just because it really ended up being so close. I can't say for certani what scum was or wasn't thinking, but given that one vote (gobble) would have tipped the wagon I just have trouble believing scum felt it was inevitable. It was. From the perspective of scum, particularly with gobbles clearly not participating and no reason to count on him, there is no way sloosh wasn't getting lynched, and even if he wasn't then it would require literally THE ENTIRE SCUMTEAM to pile onto MZ, who will flip town. Then sloosh will INEVITABLY be lynched the next day, and it will INEVITABLY be clear that it was a scum switch. The #1 best play for scum at that point is to bus him. At the time of the bus, they needed 1) gobbles to come back, 2) three townies to switch over to MZ. This is all while you're convincing everyone to vote for sloosh for the same reasons as MZ, but more so. So they not only have to convince three townies without making it look like they led the mislynch afterwards, but they have to do it while you are convincing people that sloosh is MZ 2.0. How is that not clearly a pretty much impossible task? How is bussing him at this point not an incredibly good and obvious idea? His responses to me feel so damn transparently scum, it's infuriating. Look at his last responses to me. He says that the motivation for actions is irrelevant, it's only actions that count (I paraphrased, so he can't come back and say I'm "misquoting" him like his scumbuddy did. He ignores the motivation by ignoring my entire post in order to focus attention on the action, while I ask him to explain what my MOTIVATION was. He can't provide any motivation. It's impossible for him.). THAT IS 100% SCUM MINDSET. The entire point of a bus is to make it look like you're town through your actions, and hope people don't see the motivation behind it. I have absolutely no idea how you can believe that it makes sense for me as scum to try to switch the lynch in the last few hours when there's no reasonable motivation for it, and yet there's a treasure trove of motivation for mderg to do exactly what he did as scum. I have provided scum motivation for his actions, he can't provide scum motivation for my actions. On June 08 2014 05:15 mderg wrote: I don´t know. I guess it was because scum was scared of a doc save on me or because I was leaning town on fuba. You're ignoring your own good points exclusively because of the roleblock. There was no reason to kill alakaslam over mderg. Alakaslam did nothing, mderg did something. Mderg is 100% the right shot. And there's absolutely no way that mderg actually believed that scum was scared of a doc save on him. In no situation was anyone but Amiko being doc saved (sqrt had the rules confused, but there's no way for scum to know that). This reply is complete nonsense. Why would he need a complete nonsense answer to this question? Because he's scum. | ||
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fuba
United States663 Posts
On June 08 2014 06:31 mderg wrote: You don´t have to convince me, I know you´re scum, but that doesn´t mean I can´t tell people why your play made sense as scum. You mean like me putting myself in the spotlight on the jwz lynch? You knew Palmar was also trying to get people´s votes over to MZ, so you knew there might still have been a chance to get the misslynch. You´re making things up about me knowing gobble wouldn´t be there where just gobble voting would have secured the misynch for you. I guess you were planning with gobble´s vote and thus only needed like 2 people to switch their votes. This wasn´t that unrealistic. Yeah, I "planned with gobble's vote" but didn't decide to discuss it with him in our QT. Or he wasn't in the QT so I went ahead and just put the entire scumteam on the shoulders of MIA gobble instead of doing a far more reasonable thing like bus the fuck out of sloosh. On June 08 2014 06:22 mderg wrote: The base logic behind that makes sense but as you´ve also already said scum generally wants to split their votes. So I think that reasoning is kinda wrong, in that situation scum can´t change the situation too much just based on votes. The leading force for the sloosh lynch was Amiko who was very townie and besides his case there was actually not much else brought up about sloosh. I think there were actually more people trying to sway votes to MZ, so I don´t get how it could have seemed like scum were trying to direct to the sloosh lynch. Points out that scum want to split their votes, says that my scumteam and I were all ready to pile onto a mislynch to save someone who would be lynched anyway the next day. | ||
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fuba
United States663 Posts
On June 08 2014 06:10 mderg wrote: I think your actions on day 2 made sense as scum. It was close to switching the lynch over and would have been enough to save sloosh, if gobble was there. In that case it would have worked hugely in your favor. But it didn´t work out for you. I don´t think I would have voted sloosh solely because of Amiko´s case. I still thought that MZ was the better lynch until sloosh put out a defense that contradicted with the one point that I thought could point towards him being town. He shouldn't need to think that he wouldn't have voted sloosh solely based on Amiko's case. If he's town then he KNOWS that he didn't. | ||
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Might as well ##Vote: mderg GG mderg, perfect bus. And good plan killing off the only remaining confirmed town that thinks. | ||
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Actually, killing Amiko is the worst thing I could have done if I was scum. He's the only one who would have a conversation, however misguided. | ||
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fuba
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On June 08 2014 17:35 mderg wrote: You´re so heavily twisting my words, it shouldn´t be possible. I said the OUTCOME of the actions is irrelevant, if there´s scum motivation behind the actions. Like where the hell did I say that the motivation behind your actions don´t matter. Just find any quote. Answered this before you even asked it: "(I paraphrased, so he can't come back and say I'm "misquoting" him like his scumbuddy did. He ignores the motivation by ignoring my entire post in order to focus attention on the action, while I ask him to explain what my MOTIVATION was. He can't provide any motivation. It's impossible for him.)" Regardless of the outcome your action and motivation were still the same and you weren´t instantly scumread for it. Because who would make a ballsy play like that as scum? It just seems so risky as scum that it can actually be kinda safe to do. The likelihood of the desired outcome is taken into consideration when deciding whether to do something or not. If I was scum, I had little reason to believe I could actually switch the lynch, and no reason to do it even if I did. Both MZ and SlOosh were going to be lynched, since everyone found them both scummy regardless of the others' alignment. Sloosh was going to die no matter what. The net result after days 2 and 3 was going to be one dead sloosh and one dead MZ. Why would I put my neck out, and drag gobble into a last-minute vote that would make him pretty certainly the day 4 lynch, when I could just bus sloosh and gain towncred? There is no net gain for scum|fuba pushing the MZ mislynch. The net benefits of scum|mderg bussing sloosh are shown in the progression of the game up to this point. And the scum motivation behind your actions should be clear. Saving a scum helps even if he´s likely to be lynched the next day.If your plan worked, you´d have been at 3 scum against 6 town meaning you´d need 2 mislynches to win the game. False. It doesn't help if it forces your entire team to out themselves as scum in order to pull off the mislynch, and if sloosh is going to be lynched anyway (as he most certainly was). Scum play to win the game, not just to save one of their allies. It's the reason that bussing exists. Your play makes sense as scum that knew sloosh was going to be dead by the end of D3, mine does not. Also I don´t know about gobble, maybe he even posted in the scum qt that day and just forgot to vote or something. Absolutely possible, but regardless of that fact it wouldn't make sense to pile both me and gobble onto MZ because then the entire scumteam has gone balls to the wall to delay a lynch by a single day. Even if gobble was there, which I have assumed he wasn't or he wouldn't have been modkilled for not voting, it wouldn't make sense for the scumteam to go to that extent to merely postpone a lynch. What does make sense is trying to gain as much from the inevitable loss of a teammate as possible, which is what you did. | ||
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I've come to the realization that there are some points that I brought up yesterday that no longer actually matter in my case against mderg. Gonna clarify what no longer matters, and summarize my case. What no longer matters - It doesn't matter whether or not scum felt they could divert the sloosh lynch on D2. That is irrelevant, because sloosh was absolutely going to be lynched on D3, then. We lynched sloosh's counterwagon the day after sloosh flipped scum, so why would MZ flipping town cause anyone's suspicions of sloosh to lessen? The answer is that they wouldn't. Therefore, sloosh was going to die, and scum would have tried to benefit from it the best they could. - The roleblock doesn't matter. If anything, it indicates that mderg is more likely scum because he's claiming to be a VT who's been roleblocked, but he wasn't killed over alakaslam who shared that same status but was participating far less. And his reaction is further evidence against him, because there's no way anyone in the game thought that mderg was going to be medic'd over Amiko. This is a secondary point, however, so even if you disagree with me it doesn't detract from my main point. Summary of my main point Yesterday, Amiko and I got caught up discussing whether or not scum thought they could have diverted the lynch, but we weren't thinking about it correctly. The ultimate fact is that diverting the lynch would have been pointless even if it were possible. This is something that scum would have realized and acted on. They knew that MZ and sloosh were going to be lynched in some order on D2 and D3, so they took the opportunity to bus Sloosh on D2 because it is what would most benefit the scum team. I, on the other hand, tried to switch the lynch to MZ. I've made it really clear why that is pointless as scum. Sloosh was going to be lynched on D3 even if I "succeeded", and even the way it played out in the thread would have required gobble swooping in at the last minute to secure the mislynch, which would have pretty much pinned him as the second scum even if he wasn't modkilled. Scum control their roleblocks, scum control their death posts. What we know scum lost control of was the sloosh lynch, because sloosh was scum and he was lynched. This is a pivotal moment, and at this point in the game, with only one scum out of me and mderg, you can reduce the entire game to which of us acted as scum in this situation. Attempting to save sloosh would have gained scum nothing, but bussing him definitely helped them. | ||
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fuba
United States663 Posts
On June 10 2014 00:20 mderg wrote: I don´t think sloosh would have 100% been lynched the next day. Palmar was heavily pushing the MZ lynch and could have been under pressure because he was scumreading sloosh but still going heavily against that lynch. The fact that you refuse to admit that sloosh was absolutely guaranteed to be lynched the day after MZ is literally ridiculous. It absolutely confirms you as scum, because the only way you can possibly be town is if facts aren't true. This is what you're saying scum thought would happen: Most of the thread agrees that sloosh is more suspicious than MZ -> MZ is mislynched -> HEY GUYS! PALMAR IS NOW THE SCUMMIEST PERSON IN THE THREAD! No. That's absurd. Sqrt please let this fact burrow into your head, because I really don't know how you haven't been convinced by the incredibly solid case I've presented. How does my reaction serve as evidence against me? I don´t know why slam was killed over me and I can only guess the reasons. Some kind of WIFOM doc save on me was possible, not very likely though. It´s also not like scum had to be that scared of me since I read you as town and my reads weren´t that good in general. The only reason to kill me would have been that I looked townie. And you can always WIFOM that. I've already said this can be ignored if people don't agree with me. But there's no reason to NK slam ahead of mderg, whatsoever. You say the only reason to kill you would have been that you looked townie. That is my exact point. You were doing townie things, while slam was not doing much of anything at all. The fact that he was killed over you is easily explained by the fact that scum rarely NK themselves. You act like scum somehow has some divine knowledge about how the next days will play out. There was no reason scum would have seen that while town couldn´t. The only difference was that scum knew sloosh would flip scum while MZ would flip town. But the flip didn´t seem to have an impact on the following day. So why would scum realize that beforehand while town didn´t realize it until days after that? Everything I've explained is easily derived from the information we KNOW FOR A FACT that scum would have had at the time. I've already spelled out why sloosh was guaranteed to be lynched from the scum perspective. In what world does Amiko stop pushing for a sloosh lynch after MZ flips town? MZ flipping town WOULD HAVE HAD NO IMPACT ON TOWN'S VIEW OF SLOOSH! Sloosh was either dead D2, or the following day. And you fucking knew it. "Why would scum realize something before town? They only have extra information." Perfect reasoning from "town" mderg. Also why would you reduce the entire game to only one situation? "I´ve looked more townie in one part of the game, so we should only look at that part of the game" to paraphrase it. Because it's a reasonable thing to do. If you can't agree that the sloosh lynch was a pivotal moment in the game, you're confirming what I said in the response above. You're denying undeniable facts because if you admit that they're true, then you have to admit that you're scum. So I repeat, again,: SQRT: Please actually think instead of just saying "Fuba scum gg", because this is the single best case I've ever made, and it's possible because I know without a shadow of a doubt that mderg is scum. I've been trying to reword my case to make it clearer, but it's impossible to explain it any better than I already have. If you vote me over mderg, then you're agreeing with him that 1) scum have more information, but they can't/don't use that to their advantage, 2) scum's goal is to save their scumbuddies, not win the game, 3) town would have lynched Palmar over sloosh after mislynching MZ. Those are just off the top of my head, but they're pretty damn significant. | ||
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fuba
United States663 Posts
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fuba
United States663 Posts
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fuba
United States663 Posts
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