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On November 24 2012 21:52 syllogism wrote:
Stop distorting the case against him Acro. I seem to be trying to read sandro as if I'm skyping with him? That's completely nonsensical.
You don't feel sandro is not playing any different? How about the fact he has done or said nothing useful at all whole game long. Not a single read; just throwing a name out there with no reasoning is not a read. Failure to construct reads is fairly in line with what? Is the sandro you know completely useless? The little time he has devoted to the game has centered around him defending himself rather than doing something actually useful.
Despite the amount of seeming effort you are putting into the game, your defense of Sandro is starting to feel quite suspicious.
what do you make of sand's point about his party selection?
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On November 24 2012 21:50 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 21:44 marvellosity wrote:On November 24 2012 21:39 Acrofales wrote:On November 24 2012 20:57 marvellosity wrote:On November 24 2012 20:38 sandroba wrote:On November 24 2012 20:34 Acrofales wrote:
@Sandroba: a lot of the case against you is inspired by the idea that scum must have had someone in the running for party leader yesterday. Do you agree with this? And if it's not you, then who was it? I answered that already: kita. He got overshadowed by his lack of activity and the fact that everyone was supporting me or syllo right off the bat. I've not seen any reasoning from you on why kita (or anyone else for that matter). What gives? You're not pushing anyone. Probably you only have to convince syllo, but this influential punter wants to know why you're not pushing your reads either? Is not pushing reads a scumtell? Especially if so blatantly obvious about it? if i ask myself what town sand and scum sand would be doing in this situation, yeah, it's a scumtell. I understand far less why town sandroba isn't pushing anyone. Are you pushing anyone? You're pressuring people, but I don't get the opinion that you have made up your mind on anybody you think is scum. You are not pushing your reads much either. Is that a scumtell for you? How about Kita? Toad? Why single Sandroba out of the veterans who are not currently pushing their scum reads?
Don't be dense, I've been pursuing kita for some time now even if I haven't made a formal case/vote.
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On November 24 2012 21:52 syllogism wrote:
Stop distorting the case against him Acro. I seem to be trying to read sandro as if I'm skyping with him? That's completely nonsensical.
You don't feel sandro is not playing any different? How about the fact he has done or said nothing useful at all whole game long. Not a single read; just throwing a name out there with no reasoning is not a read. Failure to construct reads is fairly in line with what? Is the sandro you know completely useless? The little time he has devoted to the game has centered around him defending himself rather than doing something actually useful.
Despite the amount of seeming effort you are putting into the game, your defense of Sandro is starting to feel quite suspicious.
You were IN GoT mafia with him. Sure, I was scum that game, but my criticism against you was truthful. You were throwing names out there and seeing what came back. While I expect you would've figured Chaoser out, and it was too much of a risk to let you live, your D1 was atrocious. HRM you only got going quite late on D2 and it was mostly you pulling that wagon. Sandro keeping his reads close and scumhunting based on reading the thread and throwing a name out from time to time is not contrary to his town play at all. My impression of his scumhunting has always been that he gauges the mindset behind reactions in the game... and if other people are doing plenty to cause people to react, then he doesn't have to do much himself.
Am I certain he's town? No. I just don't like the way this witch hunt is going. Also, your association case is pathetic.
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On November 24 2012 21:54 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 21:52 syllogism wrote:
Stop distorting the case against him Acro. I seem to be trying to read sandro as if I'm skyping with him? That's completely nonsensical.
You don't feel sandro is not playing any different? How about the fact he has done or said nothing useful at all whole game long. Not a single read; just throwing a name out there with no reasoning is not a read. Failure to construct reads is fairly in line with what? Is the sandro you know completely useless? The little time he has devoted to the game has centered around him defending himself rather than doing something actually useful.
Despite the amount of seeming effort you are putting into the game, your defense of Sandro is starting to feel quite suspicious. what do you make of sand's point about his party selection?
I think town sandro would realize that it is completely meaningless as he never had to select a party and it's quite likely that just one mafia is under normal circumstances enough to cause the mission to fail, and therefore he wouldn't attempt to use something like to defend himself.
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On November 24 2012 21:59 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 21:54 marvellosity wrote:On November 24 2012 21:52 syllogism wrote:
Stop distorting the case against him Acro. I seem to be trying to read sandro as if I'm skyping with him? That's completely nonsensical.
You don't feel sandro is not playing any different? How about the fact he has done or said nothing useful at all whole game long. Not a single read; just throwing a name out there with no reasoning is not a read. Failure to construct reads is fairly in line with what? Is the sandro you know completely useless? The little time he has devoted to the game has centered around him defending himself rather than doing something actually useful.
Despite the amount of seeming effort you are putting into the game, your defense of Sandro is starting to feel quite suspicious. what do you make of sand's point about his party selection? I think town sandro would realize that it is completely meaningless as he never had to select a party and it's quite likely that just one mafia is under normal circumstances enough to cause the mission to fail, and therefore he wouldn't attempt to use something like to defend himself.
yes, that's kinda obvious now you say it.
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On November 24 2012 21:54 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 21:52 syllogism wrote:
Stop distorting the case against him Acro. I seem to be trying to read sandro as if I'm skyping with him? That's completely nonsensical.
You don't feel sandro is not playing any different? How about the fact he has done or said nothing useful at all whole game long. Not a single read; just throwing a name out there with no reasoning is not a read. Failure to construct reads is fairly in line with what? Is the sandro you know completely useless? The little time he has devoted to the game has centered around him defending himself rather than doing something actually useful.
Despite the amount of seeming effort you are putting into the game, your defense of Sandro is starting to feel quite suspicious. what do you make of sand's point about his party selection?
That is the one point I think is weak, lol. If scum is able to take 3 townies along and still fail the mission, then his party selection is neither here nor there. The more I think about it, the harder it seems for a scum party leader to play the party leader role correctly.
If Sandro is scum and takes 3 incredibly townie people along, yet fails the mission, he is scum through a process of elimination. If Sandro is scum and takes a shady character along, he is scum for bringing his scumbuddy along, because town Sandro should know better. Either way, having someone known for his accurate reads lead a failed party is a recipe for disaster for scum (assuming town has ways of killing scum).
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In fact, the more I think about it in those terms, the more I feel like people known for their strong reads would make BAD party leaders for scum. Someone like me, Toad, Prom, Keirathi, Hapa or GK (to name a few of the players I consider mid tier here) would be FAR more likely to get away with it: we can throw one or two dubious townies in there, fail the mission, come up with some bullshit reason why we picked them and get away with it for quite a while. I don't see anybody letting Sandro, Syllo or Marv get away with that. Still hung on whether Kita belongs to the former or the latter group.
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On November 24 2012 22:02 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 21:54 marvellosity wrote:On November 24 2012 21:52 syllogism wrote:
Stop distorting the case against him Acro. I seem to be trying to read sandro as if I'm skyping with him? That's completely nonsensical.
You don't feel sandro is not playing any different? How about the fact he has done or said nothing useful at all whole game long. Not a single read; just throwing a name out there with no reasoning is not a read. Failure to construct reads is fairly in line with what? Is the sandro you know completely useless? The little time he has devoted to the game has centered around him defending himself rather than doing something actually useful.
Despite the amount of seeming effort you are putting into the game, your defense of Sandro is starting to feel quite suspicious. what do you make of sand's point about his party selection? That is the one point I think is weak, lol. If scum is able to take 3 townies along and still fail the mission, then his party selection is neither here nor there. The more I think about it, the harder it seems for a scum party leader to play the party leader role correctly. If Sandro is scum and takes 3 incredibly townie people along, yet fails the mission, he is scum through a process of elimination. If Sandro is scum and takes a shady character along, he is scum for bringing his scumbuddy along, because town Sandro should know better. Either way, having someone known for his accurate reads lead a failed party is a recipe for disaster for scum (assuming town has ways of killing scum).
@Acro
I think we are going to get ways of killing scum after successful event. Like the fact that today is a "lynch event day" is a reward for us to have succeed in the last event. I would have expected a different event (mafia favored event) if we had failed. But that's just speculation.
I think that one scum on the party doesn't automatically cause the failure of the event. There are hidden factors after all. Frog (aka Dieno) being on the event could have allowed one mafia player to come along imo.
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On November 24 2012 21:55 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 21:50 Acrofales wrote:On November 24 2012 21:44 marvellosity wrote:On November 24 2012 21:39 Acrofales wrote:On November 24 2012 20:57 marvellosity wrote:On November 24 2012 20:38 sandroba wrote:On November 24 2012 20:34 Acrofales wrote:
@Sandroba: a lot of the case against you is inspired by the idea that scum must have had someone in the running for party leader yesterday. Do you agree with this? And if it's not you, then who was it? I answered that already: kita. He got overshadowed by his lack of activity and the fact that everyone was supporting me or syllo right off the bat. I've not seen any reasoning from you on why kita (or anyone else for that matter). What gives? You're not pushing anyone. Probably you only have to convince syllo, but this influential punter wants to know why you're not pushing your reads either? Is not pushing reads a scumtell? Especially if so blatantly obvious about it? if i ask myself what town sand and scum sand would be doing in this situation, yeah, it's a scumtell. I understand far less why town sandroba isn't pushing anyone. Are you pushing anyone? You're pressuring people, but I don't get the opinion that you have made up your mind on anybody you think is scum. You are not pushing your reads much either. Is that a scumtell for you? How about Kita? Toad? Why single Sandroba out of the veterans who are not currently pushing their scum reads? Don't be dense, I've been pursuing kita for some time now even if I haven't made a formal case/vote.
Yeah. You've been pressuring him. I have not gotten the feeling ever that you have made up your mind yet. That's okay, I haven't made up my mind yet either. But calling Sandroba out for not having made up his mind and pushing his read is hypocritical.
I do find his lack of thread presence disconcerting. In all games I have played with him, his thread presence (or PM presence in SSM) has been commanding. However, RL issues are a good reason for lack of thread presence.
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There is only a certain amount of time until IRL issues just dont cut it.
The difference is that Sandro could very well be lynched while marv basically cant be lynched this cycle.
Marv can do his pushing and prodding a lot more subtly while Sandro has to get himself out of a lynch
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On November 24 2012 22:11 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 21:55 marvellosity wrote:On November 24 2012 21:50 Acrofales wrote:On November 24 2012 21:44 marvellosity wrote:On November 24 2012 21:39 Acrofales wrote:On November 24 2012 20:57 marvellosity wrote:On November 24 2012 20:38 sandroba wrote:On November 24 2012 20:34 Acrofales wrote:
@Sandroba: a lot of the case against you is inspired by the idea that scum must have had someone in the running for party leader yesterday. Do you agree with this? And if it's not you, then who was it? I answered that already: kita. He got overshadowed by his lack of activity and the fact that everyone was supporting me or syllo right off the bat. I've not seen any reasoning from you on why kita (or anyone else for that matter). What gives? You're not pushing anyone. Probably you only have to convince syllo, but this influential punter wants to know why you're not pushing your reads either? Is not pushing reads a scumtell? Especially if so blatantly obvious about it? if i ask myself what town sand and scum sand would be doing in this situation, yeah, it's a scumtell. I understand far less why town sandroba isn't pushing anyone. Are you pushing anyone? You're pressuring people, but I don't get the opinion that you have made up your mind on anybody you think is scum. You are not pushing your reads much either. Is that a scumtell for you? How about Kita? Toad? Why single Sandroba out of the veterans who are not currently pushing their scum reads? Don't be dense, I've been pursuing kita for some time now even if I haven't made a formal case/vote. Yeah. You've been pressuring him. I have not gotten the feeling ever that you have made up your mind yet. That's okay, I haven't made up my mind yet either. But calling Sandroba out for not having made up his mind and pushing his read is hypocritical. I do find his lack of thread presence disconcerting. In all games I have played with him, his thread presence (or PM presence in SSM) has been commanding. However, RL issues are a good reason for lack of thread presence.
ok, fair enough, it is somewhat hypocritical. But I've clearly been pursuing targets harder than sand whichever way you look at it, plus he's up for the lynch and I'm not.
I don't understand the lack of urgency at all.
Real life issues or not, sandroba has not been impactful when he HAS been here.
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On November 24 2012 22:09 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 22:02 Acrofales wrote:On November 24 2012 21:54 marvellosity wrote:On November 24 2012 21:52 syllogism wrote:
Stop distorting the case against him Acro. I seem to be trying to read sandro as if I'm skyping with him? That's completely nonsensical.
You don't feel sandro is not playing any different? How about the fact he has done or said nothing useful at all whole game long. Not a single read; just throwing a name out there with no reasoning is not a read. Failure to construct reads is fairly in line with what? Is the sandro you know completely useless? The little time he has devoted to the game has centered around him defending himself rather than doing something actually useful.
Despite the amount of seeming effort you are putting into the game, your defense of Sandro is starting to feel quite suspicious. what do you make of sand's point about his party selection? That is the one point I think is weak, lol. If scum is able to take 3 townies along and still fail the mission, then his party selection is neither here nor there. The more I think about it, the harder it seems for a scum party leader to play the party leader role correctly. If Sandro is scum and takes 3 incredibly townie people along, yet fails the mission, he is scum through a process of elimination. If Sandro is scum and takes a shady character along, he is scum for bringing his scumbuddy along, because town Sandro should know better. Either way, having someone known for his accurate reads lead a failed party is a recipe for disaster for scum (assuming town has ways of killing scum). @AcroI think we are going to get ways of killing scum after successful event. Like the fact that today is a "lynch event day" is a reward for us to have succeed in the last event. I would have expected a different event (mafia favored event) if we had failed. But that's just speculation. I think that one scum on the party doesn't automatically cause the failure of the event. There are hidden factors after all. Frog (aka Dieno) being on the event could have allowed one mafia player to come along imo.
I agree with your first point. It is quite likely that if the event had failed, we would not have gotten the lynch day. However, I see no reason why scum would know how this game works any more than we did. I also assume that town has a fair amount of KP to allow for some town-controlled flips.
I therefore think my logic makes a lot of sense. The second part is speculation. Plausible speculation (I came up with it after all), but still speculation. We have no clue how the hidden influence works, and the game HAS to be balanced somehow to allow scum to win events. Assuming a 3-1 ratio fails an event seems okay for now. Especially as scum presumably also does not know how the influence works and thus they cannot gamble on Sandro bringing along Frog (pretty much confirmed town imho) and gambling that the event succeeds due to his high influence factor, because they simply don't know.
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There is no reason to assume mafia doesn't know more about how many people they need to cause an event to fail. The main purpose why mechanics are hidden is so that we don't confirm 4 townies any time a mission succeeds.
Also reading sandro's filter it doesn't even look like he announced what his final team would be. At one point he said oats, kush and dienosore, but if he is mafia he probably knew that kush was going to die. In addition, when he named that team, I don't think he thought he was going to win. Moreover, he was locked down to dienosore+oats very early on, before dienosore claimed.
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I'm going out tonight, getting drunk and all 
It's already saturday night here in Korea ^^
I might come back and do some drunk posting but the most important point is that I put my alarm tomorrow to be here around deadline.
My vote stays on TheChronicler. If was in a position to decide who to lynch between sandro and kita right now, I would lynch kita.
Put some pressure on VE for me when he comes back in the thread please ^^
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On November 24 2012 22:14 Oatsmaster wrote:
There is only a certain amount of time until IRL issues just dont cut it.
The difference is that Sandro could very well be lynched while marv basically cant be lynched this cycle.
Marv can do his pushing and prodding a lot more subtly while Sandro has to get himself out of a lynch
Agreed. For some of you that point has been reached. I am seeing some logical inconsistencies with him being scum. They tell me to give him more time and look for people I am more convinced are scum. If, of course, he doesn't shape up, then we can kill him later.
My having that read on him, makes me naturally suspicious of how this wagon is forming in the first place. It is one giant sheep. The only two people who have tried to give their own justification are Clarity, whose case is pathetic, and Adam. The rest are riddled with inconsistencies and lack of reasoning:
Risk.nuke: I know he's been called out for it already, but his explanation is terrible.
On November 23 2012 19:32 risk.nuke wrote:Good job syllogism! Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 12:11 Oatsmaster wrote:
I think we should wait for Syllo to post before jumping to conclusions Here is something I love, an independent thinking man. Moving on, I'm really wondering where sandroba have gone. I'm leaning I want to lynch him but I'm going to at least park my vote on him untill he comes back. ##Vote: sandroba
Later explained: pressure vote. It has not been reevaluated and I have no clue why risk thinks Sandro is scum.
Oatsmaster: while I have no reason to question his alignment yet (having been included in a successful party), his vote comes down to a combination of "one of Sandro/Syllo must be scum" (I don't believe that is true at all) and "beeehhhhhhh". Here is his vote post:
On November 23 2012 09:03 Oatsmaster wrote:
Yeah Sand is looking extremely suspicious at this point..
Vote: Sandro
/sheeple.
GK: 180 degrees flip from Sandro is town to Sandro is scum the second he read Syllo's post. 100% suspicious vote from someone I have my concerns about in any case.
SnB: parked vote, went on holiday. Not going to bother with this right now, because regardless of where he had voted this would feel like a cop-out.
Clarity to me, at the moment, feels more like town making a bad case than scum making up a bullshit case to jump on the syllo sheep. Adam I am not so sure about, although I feel his case has some merit, it is 100% meta from a game I didn't play in. Meta interpretation where only one game is used as comparison is very easy to make or fake.
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On November 24 2012 22:26 syllogism wrote:
There is no reason to assume mafia doesn't know more about how many people they need to cause an event to fail. The main purpose why mechanics are hidden is so that we don't confirm 4 townies any time a mission succeeds.
Also reading sandro's filter it doesn't even look like he announced what his final team would be. At one point he said oats, kush and dienosore, but if he is mafia he probably knew that kush was going to die. In addition, when he named that team, I don't think he thought he was going to win. Moreover, he was locked down to dienosore+oats very early on, before dienosore claimed.
If I understand that correctly, then you are making the assumption that scum could use the fact that Frog is in the party reliably to get "confirmed" status by allowing the event to succeed. That seems like info scum could not possibly have.
As for the second part of your post: what is your point? Sandro would pull a quick party switch and take someone incredibly scummy along? I think everybody who read Kush's post properly assumed he would die, what does being mafia have to do with it? I am confused why you are harping on the party composition.
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Okay, just realized that scum could have a godfather mechanic, allowing them to get "confirmed" through successful events (maybe even voluntarily able to switch it on or off). That could allow a scum Sandro to run for party leader, get "confirmed" and manipulate town into sheeping him into multiple failures.
However, I don't think I have any reason to believe that this is what he tried to achieve.
Sandro: why am I the one doing your dirty work?
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Am back and oh god I've got 40 pages to read.
Technically speaking nothing has changed for me so far becautse I'm not done reading, so I'm still the most concerned about marv and Sandro. They both feel off. I'd say Marv a bit more than Sandro but again, I'm still assuming there's got to be a vet who was running for, or at least able to run for leader d1 balancewise.
On top of that Syllo seems to be pretty sure about his read when there's no reason to doubt him right now.
So yeah I'd go for Sandro today.
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EPT
