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heist
United States720 Posts
@ Superouman: I'd love to hear your thoughts on some candidates, more than a simple "let's kill lurkers, they ruin town atmosphere". It sounds good in theory, but.... no names, no analysis, just something easily said and ultimately something town can't really use. So looking forward to some more posts from you @Ange77: I hope you blow me away to make up for not contributing much. No pressure  | ||
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heist
United States720 Posts
Typo. Don't want to seem like an idiot. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
I can sympathize with the language issue, it's not something that should be held against you. That said, your defense was pretty jumbled. You didn't touch on why you discouraged meta-game arguments, and the related contradiction I asked you to explain. I found it difficult to follow who your defense was specifically addressing. You predicted that we would question why you are telling people to slow down with their accusations, and you're absolutely right there. It's very weird for a townie to tell everyone not to pursue their reads aggressively. The clock is always ticking, and 48 hours goes by quickly. I don't want to lock in my vote until I hear more from you, but your defense has done nothing to allay my suspicions. People accusing cattivik Consider both sides of the spectrum. Can you really not see a logical town motivation behind his posts thus far? Getting in everyone's faces, tunneling Eishi_Ki, and staunch, energetic defense of his actions. He has been very active thus far. I don't agree with his methods, but they sure as hell read town to me. Don't make mountains out of molehills. Consider not just his words, but the aims behind them. Cattivik and Eishi_Ki Frankly I think you are both wrong about each other. I'm not as sure on Eishi_Ki as I am on Cattivik, but I can say definitively that your (Cattavik) case on Eishi_Ki is really weak. You decided to vote for him based on the fact that his schedule means he can't be around during lynch time, and him wondering if it's a good thing that he isn't around during that time. Regarding that second point, others in the thread were discussing about how scum and lurkers can sway the vote at the last minute. You are making too much out of what amounts to basically nothing, and longer you pursue it, the less objective it's going to become. Be self-aware of tunneling, and consider outside input on your suspicions. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
Nobody is going to accuse you of bandwagoning if you are directly asked your opinion on someone. That said, what is your opinion on Unforgiven? | ||
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
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Superouman
France2195 Posts
On June 01 2012 01:15 Xatalos wrote: It's the opposite, really. I've been very patient with you, considering your horrible first posts, long absence, and now this angry and useless response. Why don't you do something to convince everyone of your innocence instead of dodging the issue? Cattivik has indeed posted some questionable statements. It's still not enough to make me think he is Mafia. He was the very first poster to push the Mafia hunt, to call out lurkers, to call out suspicious behaviour. If that isn't town play, I don't know what is. Some stupid statements like "confirmed town" don't yet make someone Mafia. More importantly, I want to see something from you, Superouman. So far you have just posted generalities and useless banter. Do you think Cattivik is Mafia? Do you think Unforgiven_ve is Mafia? Do you have any other opinions? This is too soon for me to say if someone is mafia, every thought i would give is based on nothing than assumptions and i hate hurrying myself to go to a conclusion | ||
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Superouman
France2195 Posts
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Unforgiven_ve
Venezuela1232 Posts
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Vivax
21954 Posts
On June 01 2012 01:36 s0Lstice wrote: You decided to vote for him based on the fact that his schedule means he can't be around during lynch time, and him wondering if it's a good thing that he isn't around during that time. You mean his joke?Yes, I didn't get the joke. My main points (which I wonder you don't know, cause they were at the beginning of my argumentation against him) are that he just started posting after two accusations were out, with the claim of me talking of 'us' townies with the purpose of making myself sound as if I were one, while heist, a few posts above, does exactly the same thing I did. So Eishi_Ki bandwagoned with a very weak claim, a very small post and no pressure to post in the future cause of his schedule. Also, notice how once confronted with his weak claim he suddenly accuses three other people but not me anymore. He must have noticed that his claim is really weak and is now dodging the accusations. He also denied a statement concerning the weak claim instead asking what the accusation is. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340298¤tpage=8#143 I think there is not enough information on unforgiven, except for a nonexistent post analysis. He gave general tips so far, then he agreed with statements from other players without questioning them and without posting something concrete. I'll stick to my opinion regarding sciberbia and Eishi_Ki. In case I won't have a majority on Eishi_Ki, I'll try to help achieve the majority on the case i believe is most correct in order to get a Day 1 lynch 100%. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
If you can't be bothered to share your thoughts, even if they are only fledgling thoughts, then why are you playing? Why should we keep you alive? At best you are a rogue vote, and at worst you are scum. Do you not see that from our point of view, you not wanting to comment on the events happening around you makes you look useless and scummy? The longer you do this, the more and more I want to kill you off day 1 so you aren't left herp derping around later on. | ||
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suki
Canada1159 Posts
On June 01 2012 02:04 Superouman wrote: And from my first mafia game ever point of view, the first day is no more than a lottery The first day is not a lottery, though, and even if it was, the information that we gain from everyone posting their thoughts is invaluable in the later stages of the game. You NEED to post your opinions, and you need to post them often. Your Day 1 posts may be the only thing keeping you from getting lynched come Day 4 or whatever. I'm starting to see why people dislike lurkers so much. Over time, we may find out more clear reads on Cattivik and Unforgiven_ve by analysing their posts, but someone who doesn't contribute will a) never give a read and b) will be a wildcard come voting time and may not properly push the town's agenda. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
I did somehow miss that first part of your argument against Eishi_Ki. Bandwangoning can definitely be scummy, but on its own its not a sure-fire scum tell. Sometimes people just think alike and want their voices heard. It's every townie's perogative to build up content and contribute, and it's just not possible for it to all be original. This is especially true when the sample size is small (day 1). Regarding how he defends, he pretty much addressed your concerns, The reason it looked paltry is because your case is paltry. There just isn't a lot to explain. He's not around at X time, can't be helped. He posted his thoughts on you, which were similar to what others were thinking. And the joke was...well, a joke. He moved on because he was done with your points, as I see it. I won't try to dissuade you further, but know that I think your case is not very strong at the moment. | ||
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suki
Canada1159 Posts
People accusing cattivik Consider both sides of the spectrum. Can you really not see a logical town motivation behind his posts thus far? Getting in everyone's faces, tunneling Eishi_Ki, and staunch, energetic defense of his actions. He has been very active thus far. I don't agree with his methods, but they sure as hell read town to me. Don't make mountains out of molehills. Consider not just his words, but the aims behind them. s0lstice, I'm inclined to agree with you, but don't you think it's strange that cattivik seems so confident that sciberbia is town, simply from the first few posts in Day 1? It just strikes me as really off. The fact that he was so quick to lash out at Eishi_Ki may just be 'getting in his face', and I suppose both sides of the argument seem pretty petty all things considered.. But I'm not so sure that you can say that his actions strictly read town. Cattivik, I think the discussion regarding the earlier posts of Eishi_Ki and sciberbia should be set aside for a moment. I'd like to hear your opinions on other players. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
Cattivik has been 100% confident in all of his opinions so far. Frankly it would be more strange if he wasn't. His reasoning is that sciberbia got in the thread early, and really got discussion going. He posted a day 1 strategy that, while not popular, was good intentioned and sound enough logically. He stuck to it, and wasn't shy about it. To me it looked like he got his role pm, then got right to it crafting a good post that would get us talking and perhaps give us a direction. While I'm not about to guarantee that sciberbia is town, I read his posts as pretty strongly town; cattavik just took the sentiment to the extreme. His pursuit of Eishi_Ki is similarly extreme. Like I said, I don't necessarily agree with his methods or conclusions, but the objective is to smoke out scum. I just don't see scum putting themselves in the spotlight so deliberately like he is. Scum in general are terrified of being held accountable for positions they took in the past, so they don't come down hard on any issue without a lot of thought and a measure of caution. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
Cattivik/Vivax is my top scum read as of this moment. Both Golden and heist have elaborated most of the reasons he seems scummy so I won't repeat them. There is one possible scumslip by him that I think they missed though. ---snip Sciberbia is the most active poster so far, also he's not promoting a NL, he's questioning day1 lynch. Whatever, I'm pretty sure he's clean, no mafia would go for the first post in a newbie game. That said, I'm pretty sure Miltonkram is one of us aswell, although I think he makes a mistake pointing the finger at one of the most active in here. O.Golden_ne posted nicely already aswell. Notice how in this section of his post he just points out the three most active/content filled posters at the time. He may be trying to buddy up to those he thinks might be the most influential in the thread. I did the same thing in my last game when I was scum. His attack on Eishi_Ki is just bad. Looks like scum floundering to me. The attack looks more like he's trying to say, "hey, look at me! I'm doing something that should make me look pro-town!" rather than actually helping the town. I'm off to class for a bit, but I'll check back in a few hours from now. | ||
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
On Cattivik + Show Spoiler + I'm providing my opinions of cattivik for two reasons: 1) He has been accused by enough people now (heist, golden, eishi_ki, suki, miltonkram) that he is in danger of being lynched today 2) heist explicitly asked for my opinion on cattivik I think Cattivik is most likely townie The fishiest thing about him seems to be his insistance that I am a 'confirmed townie'. Let's go through the scenarios here from your guys' persperctive. What seems most likely? 1) Cattivik is mafia. I am town. He goes way out of his way to defend me to gain an ally. 2) Cattivik is mafia. I am mafia. He defends me to the death. 3) Cattivik is town. I am town/mafia. He has a strong town-read on me and isn't afraid to share it. Now I know for a fact that I am town, so I can rule out scenario 2. But I think even you guys should be able to conclude that scenario 3 is most likely. Both scenarios 1 & 2 seem like really bizarre, risky mafia play. Mafia can suck up to active townies and/or defend fellow mafia without being so blatantly obvious about it. Scenario 3 seems like typical brazen townie play. He is also very agressive and seems confident. Townie characteristics. One last thing in his favor: Judging from his early posts I didn't get the feeling that he really understood my NL logic. If he were a mafia defending a townie, I think he'd at least want to have a solid grasp on what I was saying. Now I'm not going to say he's a 'confirmed townie' but I think he is most likely town, and I would not vote for him given current evidence. On a related topic, unless you think someone is in danger of being mislynched, please try to avoid talking about how townie you think they are. If we all agree player X is town, and we are right, we just gave mafia a really easy kill for the night. One last thing. Did Cattivik really just change his name to Vivax? Seriously? On Unforgiven + Show Spoiler + Xalatos, s0sltice, golden, suki, and miltonkram(?) all find him suspicious. I'm not sold on the case against him. He has promised a defense and I don't want to do all his defending for him so I will try to be brief. Firstly, I disagree with Xalatos and heist that he only made safe generalizations in his first few posts. I see where you are coming from because he hasn't actually made any reads yet, but he did say a couple of odd things that have earned him some flak, such as his suggestion not to use past games as a guide and his idea about a 'town leader'. His triple post within the span of 14 minutes caught my attention. I think that scum generally take longer to construct posts for several reasons: being nervous about making a slip, making sure it sounds townie, running it by their scumbuddies, etc. Especially on his first posts of the game. Obvioulsy not solid evidence, but I think it's in his favor. This is a newbie game. Just because you don't think he's helping town doesn't mean that he doesn't think he's helping town... Hope that made sense. As long as he can convince me that HE thinks that he's helping town, I see no reason why he should be mafia. I'll be interested to hear his defense. As of right now, I consider him more suspicious than Cattivik, but I don't see any really good evidence that he is mafia. I was planning on posting my own scumreads in this post, but I've been staring at this thread for hours now and am gonna take a break. I think it's long enough already anyways. I'll make cases against my own scumreads within the next 8 hours. | ||
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Superouman
France2195 Posts
##Vote sciberbia | ||
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Vivax
21954 Posts
Anyway, suki wanted some opinions on other players, so I'll put sciberbia and Eishi_Ki aside. Alright, where should I start. Let's start with you, suki: You have 5 substantial posts so far, excluding those answering game related questions or correcting formal mistakes. Your first stance was expressed after Miltons' vote against sciberbia. You believe sciberbia to have posted in the towns' interest. So do I, that's why I defend him.And the argument of mafia not posting first in a newbie game doesn't seem wrong to me. You seem to support cases especially against unforgiven_ve, then Milton, then Eishi, then me. Frankly, I don't think you are mafia. On to s0lstice: Very focused on unforgiven_ve, but also very eager to get opinions and wake up the lurkers. Rather than focusing on the exposed ones, he's getting the guys behind first, without doubt he's working pro-town and not afraid to defend people who he believes are townies, in this case me. The first post didn't look decise, but everything following convinced me of your town alignment. Xatalos: First trying to get the lurkers, now he's pushing the case against unforgiven_ve along with s0lstice. Not seen too much of a hard stance except for the one on unforgiven yet. But I'm pretty sure you are townie aswell. Miltonkram: He suspected sciberbia before understanding his point of view and apologized accordingly, suki found that apology a little suspicious, I don't. I think it's strange you have a scumread about me trying to buddy up with someone. I immediately dismissed the NL option in the s0lstice case.Doesn't exactly support his post. Still, I believe you are townie. O.golden_ne: Not sure why he's pushing the case against me so hard, then suspects Xatalos for defending me. Then he defends Eishi_ki against my accusations, saying he contributes more than me to the discussion. Actually, Eishi_ki started posting suspects after this post. Eishi's only claim before this post was that I am suspicious cause I spoke of 'we', the town. I think it's a really weak defense of Eishi and a weak case against me. More to my defense further down in the post. I do like that you also suspect the lurkers though. I can't tell if you are mafia or town. heist: One of the things I notice is that you didn't acknowledge my defence so far. You also didn't post a definite opinion in form of a vote or FoS. You gave general hints at the start. I can't tell if you are mafia or town. Superouman: The only thing you said which could haunt you as mafia later in the game is this: On June 01 2012 00:57 Superouman wrote: This, i don't understand why he could be a "confirmed" townie, even the most townie-looking person can be toying with us The rest reflects a strong indecision. In one of his posts, he says he doesn't want to judge only based on assumptions. While such a Day1 attitude doesn't produce anything useful, he could just be making the mistakes of a noob townie. Cause of the neutrality of his posts I might vote for him in absence of another strong case. I believe Superouman to be scum or not confident enough. He just voted for sciberbia out of nowhere, whatever. Unforgiven_ve No cases, basically a resume of what has been posted so far. He might have felt the urge to post something positive cause he missed the timing when all the reccommendations were posted, or he might just try to blend in with the majority. There is a fairly strong case against him, although people have been accusing him fast. It might also just be a misunderstanding cause of the different languages, but we can't go for charity in this game, that's why I also suspect you of being scum. Ange777: Permanent lurker. He promised he would contribute something soon. If it's not enough, I will vote for him first and unvote Eishi_Ki. Alright, now to my next defense: I'm one of the most, if not the most active poster in this game so far. Assuming that I survive this day or night while being mafia, my posts make me so transparent that I wouldn't survive day 2 for certain. In that case, I would have played mafia like an idiot. Also cause I'm exposing myself quite extremely. Whoever should be proven wrong for promoting the case against me in case I get lynched will most likely get in trouble the next day, cause I will flip town. The first to fall should be the lurkers. Killing me would also provide a nice bunch of information about peoples' motives for pushing against me, but naturally, I would like to avoid that. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
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heist
United States720 Posts
And its.......... a wild vote on Sciberbia from nowhere. I want a reason. A good reason. heist: One of the things I notice is that you didn't acknowledge my defence so far. You also didn't post a definite opinion in form of a vote or FoS. You gave general hints at the start. I can't tell if you are mafia or town. Cattivik, I did respond. Filter me in case you missed it. And make no mistake you are still my #1 candidate, which I hope you got from the content and tone of my posts. I just don't like cementing early reads Day 1 with a formal vote, which in all honesty is pretty useless this early. It's enough for me to present my case against you to the town. Alright, now to my next defense: I'm one of the most, if not the most active poster in this game so far. Assuming that I survive this day or night while being mafia, my posts make me so transparent that I wouldn't survive day 2 for certain. In that case, I would have played mafia like an idiot. Also cause I'm exposing myself quite extremely. Whoever should be proven wrong for promoting the case against me in case I get lynched will most likely get in trouble the next day, cause I will flip town. Cattivik, what this argument amounts to is: I'm really active and because of that I'm bound to slip up as Mafia. Therefore, I can't be mafia since I wouldn't be so active to prevent slip-ups. Careful, you are very close to admitting that you are using your activity and extreme opinions as a shield to deflect every suspicious thing you are doing. Essentially you want us to disregard anything suspicious you might do because of how vulnerable you are putting yourself. Activity is protown, but by no means does it determine alignment. I would take note of this: Solstice, Xatalos, & Sciberbia. I understand your arguments. You feel no mafia would put himself so out there with such a sustained defense. I'm not so convinced that mafia won't be so "extreme". I also don't have the benefit of knowing your alignment as you do Sciberbia. The only thing tempering my opinion on Cattivik is actually my mostly town reading on Sciberbia. However, among the two leading candidates, unforgiven_ve and Cattivik, I am not really convinced of unforgiven's scumminess. He promised another post, and I'll reserve judgment till then. So I'll be sticking with Cattivik for the time being, BUT Superouman is rapidly rising in my suspicions. | ||
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