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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 11 2012 02:43 layabout wrote:If we want to analyse the plan we need to do the following: We need to look a the player and look at what he is saying. We need to make a judgements on: - What does the player suggesting the plan think the consequences of suggesting or following the plan will be
- How they want us to perceive their plan
- How they tell us it will work in practice
- How we think it will work in practice+ Show Spoiler +
-is it good/bad?
-is it pro/anti town?
-we do this by asking questions and exploring possibilities "what will happen if..." "or what if..."
-we also do this by looking at consequences etc..
- how do they defend the plan?
- do they often suggest plans?
- how does this look compared to their other plans?
we can also look at possible motivations for suggesting the plan, and how these might change with different alignments etc... We have to look at a lot of different things in order to decide upon whether his plan makes him more likely to be scum. jumping from to is logically unsound. What is more important is whether RoL beleived it was anti-town when he suggested it (if he didn't then it is null). If you think he did believe it was anti-town we then have to look at his actions more closely to find evidence to support that ideas and ways in which RoL tries to push an anti-town plan. The judgements that i have made about his plan (i haven't shared them) have lead me to the conclusion that is is not scummy. +i might post about risk later or tomorrow if i feel like it
I think you and I scumhunt in entirely different ways. You take a look at all this stuff like
What does the player suggesting the plan think the consequences of suggesting or following the plan will be
How they want us to perceive their plan
How they tell us it will work in practice
Here's what I look at:
Why would he suggest whatever plan he's suggesting? What's his motivation?
I determined that there's no reason he'd suggest that plan besides "being scum"
I don't care how he presented it or whatever, this is what I saw RoL do:
- Lurk for 72 hours
- Show up night 1 and suggest a terrible plan that hurts town.
I see no reason to do this unless you are scum.
All I care about are the motivations for why someone would do something. I somewhat care what people say, but the real tell is WHY they say it. Does his play make sense if he's town? does it make sense if he's scum? etc. I think this is the most crucial part of scum-hunting.
I also think it's a TOTALLY reasonable step in logic from
"all he does is lurk and do anti-town stuff"
to
"##Vote: RebirthofLegend"
And I think that although I am a stubborn guy, my case was sound.
EDIT:
On January 22 2012 03:32 layabout wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=13091508Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 02:53 syllogism wrote:
RoL still insists that he thought the plan favors angels AND town, so if that is truly his take on it, it's a null tell i am giving up. your stubbornness is unfathomable Edit: It doesn't even matter what his alignment is/was Edit: all this editing is so fun, maybe i should go back and put more spoilers into my posts
Are you giving up, or just closing your mind to another way of thinking? Who is the stubborn one here, the one who is willing to have a discussion, or the one who walks away from it?
It DOES matter what his alignment is/was. It DOES matter, because the purpose of scumhunting isn't to follow some sort of "scumhunting etiquette", or to line up with whatever you personally think scumhunting should be-- the purpose of scumhunting is to catch scum. I daresay that my case on RoL was effective in that regard. If nothing else, it made him stop lurking and incriminate himself in the eyes of the town.
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Blazinghand, your case on rol wasn't good. Having a good case and getting lucky isn't the same thing.
Furthermore. Wtf too people still claiming I was a good lynch or the right thing to do. Are you trying to mask your stupidity and shame as a group by mutually lowering your heads in disgrace and keep up the mumbling.
There wasn't a case against me. Syllogism was tunneling me like mad because he thought I would had made a case against someone else as town. Which is just dumb. You don't go to the thread and read a bunch on bullshit accusations against you and decided to go make a case against someone else rather then trying to defend yourself. Unfortunatly you can't defend yourself against "I think he is scummy", which is why you don't use that as reasoning. I asked a ton of times for reasoning and the entire town just sat there and looked stupid when asked for logical reasoning. If you go back and read the thread you'll see that everytime I asked for reasoning the town went silent for a while untill someone decided to ignore it completely and start talking about something else.
The reason I were certain syllogism was scum was because I belived syllo was good at this game. And that he would never accept town where everyone are free to vote singly on gut or find that town atmosphere acceptable. Town got insanely lucky in the end but look at the direction you were going. I would had expected a town syllogism to stand beside me and roar at people to state their logic. Maybe he couldn't do it without beeing a hypocrite since he was the person who had accidently started the whole thing or maybe he was also feeling satisfied because the person everyone were doing this anti-town shit too was the person he wanted dead and he didn't mind at the time.
@Townies. I don't know what the hell you thought you were doing. After having mislynched erandorr in a case where pretty much everyone were in agreeement and we had gotten no information you decided that the best thing to do was to kill another person who would give you no information. Nobody objected against me. You were just hoping you'd be lucky and accidently hit scum. Even if I would had flipped scum you would had gotten no information from the lynch because everyone was at the same page. Which is one of the biggest reasons I find my lynch dumb. Because the point of lynching is for information. I was even unsure if we should no-lynch instead of erandorr because everyone was against him and would had gotten us no information. But in the end it was him or me and there was atleast some childish case on his scummeta.
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No, you were lynched because you were an anti-town player with no intention of helping town even when you were in danger of being lynched for the second day in a row. Your defense and the few stances that we forced out of you were inconsistent, nonsensical and overall suspicious. Feel free to keep pretending otherwise, but that is a fact
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
risk.nuke, the #1 goal of every townie is to not get lynched. If you get lynched early in the game, it is because you failed to look town. I don't think this was a great town, but the fact of the matter is, you didn't push any cases and you didn't do a good job of exonerating yourself. You were INNOCENT. How did you fail to prove that?
Also, I think my RoL case was pretty good. It was good enough to get him lynched.
EDIT: Also, we wouldn't have had mislynches on you and Erandorr if either of you did anything useful all game. I can honestly say I would lynch Erandorr again in the same circumstances, gladly and without remorse. If someone is gonna lurk and be unhelpful, I will lynch them Day 1 every time.
I will do this until there are no lurkers left in TL Mafia.
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Fuck you. The worst townie is a townie who gets lynched day 1 by a good town. Having a handful of townies worshipping syllogism awefull tunneling ideas and some scum going along with it because it's perfect for them is an unfair situatuon.
Syllogism. You sucked. Not me.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
In any case, outside of my case on RoL, my town play wasn't great. I really shouldn't have Sensed Grack either. I think I'm gonna take a week or so off before signing up for another Mafia game.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Whoa guys whoa we're all friends here ;_; cmon
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Blazinghand, this is tl mafia. It's completely acceptable to rage the shit out of eachother in one thread (well maybe do some extent for the atmosphere) and then continue to be the best of friends in another thread 5 minutes later.
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I have already admitted that I didn't play well in this game, but those two things aren't mutually exclusive
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
OK, fair enough as long as we are all chill. Fuck you risk.nuke :D
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Yeah, my game wasn't flawless either. I was tired, got tunneled, felt demotivated, and I'm generally a bad scumhunter day 1. Maybe it was awefull. But I was a bad lynch. For me to accept that I wasn't is to accept that letting people vote without reasoning is a good idea.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 22 2012 04:16 risk.nuke wrote:
Yeah, my game wasn't flawless either. I was tired, got tunneled, felt demotivated, and I'm generally a bad scumhunter day 1. Maybe it was awefull. But I was a bad lynch. For me to accept that I wasn't is to accept that letting people vote without reasoning is a good idea.
But you see, that's the point! YOU WERE A BAD LYNCH. You totes could have defended yourself, in that case. If you were really a bad lynch, I don't see how you, being A) innocent and B) a bad lynch were gonna get lynched. I think that if you had defended yourself adequately and made a solid case on someone else you'd have been fine. You SHOULD have been fine.
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On January 22 2012 04:18 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 04:16 risk.nuke wrote:
Yeah, my game wasn't flawless either. I was tired, got tunneled, felt demotivated, and I'm generally a bad scumhunter day 1. Maybe it was awefull. But I was a bad lynch. For me to accept that I wasn't is to accept that letting people vote without reasoning is a good idea. But you see, that's the point! YOU WERE A BAD LYNCH. You totes could have defended yourself, in that case. If you were really a bad lynch, I don't see how you, being A) innocent and B) a bad lynch were gonna get lynched. I think that if you had defended yourself adequately and made a solid case on someone else you'd have been fine. You SHOULD have been fine.
BH, you havent understood the situation. It's not as simple as whipping up a case against someone else. Lol at you saying, you could had simply made a solid case on someone else and avoid beeing lynched when nobody had made a solid case. They don't come with the cheerios. Later I didn't follow the game closely but I doubt there was any solid scumhunting cases at all for the entire game. Town just got lucky with powerroles. Were you expecting me to whipp one up at day 1?
As for defending myself I defended myself from what I could, and I was beeing ignored.
+ Show Spoiler +*We had concluded that I wasn't or very unlikely a demon because of palmars actions. Why would I had defended palmar the demon from an angel perspective? He is a great scumhunter and on my opposing team. That in itself made me less likely to flip scum then anybody else.
*I could also had been a good target for the seer, Since the detectives of this setup only had two functions. I was in a rare position where a check on me was usefull and could actually confirm me as almost guaranteed town.
*No information would come from my lynch.
Other then that. What was there to defend myself against? There was not a case against me. I can't defend myself from air or people just saying I think he is scummy. Nobody can. Logical arguments can be trashed and I'm generally good at trashing bad cases against me. But I can't if you don't accuse me of something.
But ignore all that. What would you had done and said if you were in my situation. Answer that if you want me to discuss this seriously with you.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I'd make a case for RoL being scum. I also wouldn't be in your situation because I'd be useful day 1 ._.
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... ehm. Okey. Discussion over. *zap*
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I'm not going to waste more time on you as you are clearly not a very self aware person or someone who is interested in re-assessing your own play. Feel free to look at what you said about meta and tyrran to see just one of the things that made you look very suspicious. You also don't appear to understand that your lack of interest in the game alone makes you a good lynch.
Also, there were a lot of good observations made about all the scum, it's just that due to there being so many apathetic townies it was easy to get distracted and not pursue those leads instead.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Seriously, I'd make a case for RoL being scum, since he'd be my best scumread. you were lynched Day 2! You had plenty of time to make a read and push it.
Like, if there's nothing to defend yourself against, just make a REAL CASE and people will be all "hey this is actually a good case" and get on that, right? If there was really no legitimate case against you, wouldn't offering forward a legitimate case totally take the pressure off you? or am I missing something here.
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On January 22 2012 04:46 risk.nuke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 04:18 Blazinghand wrote:On January 22 2012 04:16 risk.nuke wrote:
Yeah, my game wasn't flawless either. I was tired, got tunneled, felt demotivated, and I'm generally a bad scumhunter day 1. Maybe it was awefull. But I was a bad lynch. For me to accept that I wasn't is to accept that letting people vote without reasoning is a good idea. But you see, that's the point! YOU WERE A BAD LYNCH. You totes could have defended yourself, in that case. If you were really a bad lynch, I don't see how you, being A) innocent and B) a bad lynch were gonna get lynched. I think that if you had defended yourself adequately and made a solid case on someone else you'd have been fine. You SHOULD have been fine. BH, you havent understood the situation. It's not as simple as whipping up a case against someone else. Lol at you saying, you could had simply made a solid case on someone else and avoid beeing lynched when nobody had made a solid case. They don't come with the cheerios. Later I didn't follow the game closely but I doubt there was any solid scumhunting cases at all for the entire game. Town just got lucky with powerroles. Were you expecting me to whipp one up at day 1? As for defending myself I defended myself from what I could, and I was beeing ignored. + Show Spoiler +*We had concluded that I wasn't or very unlikely a demon because of palmars actions. Why would I had defended palmar the demon from an angel perspective? He is a great scumhunter and on my opposing team. That in itself made me less likely to flip scum then anybody else.
*I could also had been a good target for the seer, Since the detectives of this setup only had two functions. I was in a rare position where a check on me was usefull and could actually confirm me as almost guaranteed town.
*No information would come from my lynch. Other then that. What was there to defend myself against? There was not a case against me. I can't defend myself from air or people just saying I think he is scummy. Nobody can. Logical arguments can be trashed and I'm generally good at trashing bad cases against me. But I can't if you don't accuse me of something. But ignore all that. What would you had done and said if you were in my situation. Answer that if you want me to discuss this seriously with you.
Lucky with power roles? Syllo got 0 investigations off. Wiggles saved us from 0 night kills, role-blocked our seer twice, and then died. I got implicated by the night actions, tried to investigate 3 scum in a row, but had 2 of the 3 blocked (although one of the two blocks hinted strongly at being a demon), and the other was not the alignment I could detect and incorrectly lowered my suspicion of somebody who was scum. Refallen made the correct shot night one, then missed twice before hitting layabout, who was being fairly obvious scum at that point. What is lucky about that clusterfuck?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 10 2012 21:41 risk.nuke wrote:
Syllogism, Tyrran so far hasn't played how I expected him to. His posts seem alot like he is trying to match his steamship meta but it just doesn't have the same essence. I don't think I'm willing to lynch him just yet. But that could change, I'm not going to say I can't be talked into lynching him so he can just lurk the entire day safely.
HoD, I might be alittle biased to the fact that this is one of the few people who have defended me. On the other hand if he we keep going by the assumption that the demons put him in purgatory which I absolutely think is what happend the motive could either have been to protect one of their own or framing someone else to make it look like they were. There are a few things that makes HoD a viable lynch. There is a chance he is the AoD, and there is a chance he is a demon. I don't like how he speculates alot about scum actions. In fairness it makes sense that he should do this more then otherssince he was singled out by scumactions but I still think a scum is inclined to do so.
This is like the strongest case you make when you're under attack, but this is just a bunch of waffling. Where's your scumhunting?
Other than this you make bad attempts to defend yourself, accuse people of being bad tunneling angels, generally deride fellow members of the town, etc. Is that really an effective way to play? Where are your quotes of people showing inconsistency or scummy play? Where are your attempts at contributing to the town?
There aren't any. At all. Read your own filter and pretend it's someone else and ask yourself "was this guy helping the town?"
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EPT
